Cover-Up Alleged in Probe of USS Liberty

[Spazito]

WASHINGTON - A former Navy attorney who helped lead the military investigation of the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen says former President Lyndon Johnson and his defense secretary, Robert McNamara, ordered that the inquiry conclude the incident was an accident.


In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."


Boston was senior legal counsel to the Navy's original 1967 review of the attack. He said in the sworn statement that he stayed silent for years because he's a military man, and "when orders come ... I follow them."

<snip>

It was "one of the classic all-American cover-ups," said Ret. Adm. Thomas Moorer, a former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman who spent a year investigating the attack as part of an independent panel he formed with other former military officials. The panel also included a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins.

more

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=513&e=14&u=/ap/spy_ship_israel

[Resistance]

1. This is big news.

Every American should read the truth about Israel's intentional attack on the USS Liberty here:

http://www.ussliberty.org

This web site is dedicated to the memory of thirty-four fine young men
who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty
against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship
USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and
motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

The attack has been a matter of controversy ever since. Survivors and many key government officials
including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was
no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the
survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.

Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir
and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so.
We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag.
The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic Museum,
Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the USS Liberty Images Archive.

Our commanding officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor
for conspicuous gallantry and intrepedity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty during the attack.
The Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest award our country can bestow.
To avoid embarrassing our attackers, Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor was presented in a quiet ceremony
in the Washington Navy Yard instead of in the White House by the President as is customary.

[MissMarple]

22. I wonder, for the Israeli extremists, are we all expendable?

From what I can tell, Sharon seems to think so.

[Gimel]

97. Sharon?

I wonder...exactly why has this story been rehashed just now? That is the political statement that is being made. Whatever the truth, it is brought up to harm Israel's interests now.

[Resistance]

113. yeah right

Sure, Gimel. Everything is done to "harm Israel's interests".

Israel has murdered 34 American servicemen, and the people who want to find out the truth of the incident are only wanting to "harm Israel's interests".

Sure.

Maybe read the actual story though: a lead military investigator in the attack is now saying that he was ordered to call it an accident. That is big news to people who are actually concerned about Israel's violent aggression against a so-called 'friend'.

[Gimel]

116. Now you sound naive

You know that an incident that is 25 years old is hardly new. This has been rehashed a number of times even in the last year. The timing is what I'm referring to, not the tragedy.

[Resistance]

127. It's 36 years old.

And it's obvious you are making excuses in order to avoid confronting the evidence head on.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Here's another site on the USS LIberty...

<http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/>

[Jim Sagle]

2. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[Spazito]

3. This is #14 on Yahoo News, isn't that part of breaking news????

Did you read the article?

[bpilgrim]

5. why?

it is so short... or do you mean the story :shrug:

peace

[Spazito]

6. Sorry, if I wasn't clear, I meant the story , it came out only 45 minutes

ago, I am not sure what you mean by short?

[bpilgrim]

10. the thread is short

is what i meant so i didn't get what you were upset at :hi:

peace

[Derrick Lang]

162. ...

Is it me or is isreal really making it harder to sympathise with them. This issue will pass theres no way the medias going to hang onto it, bush wont confront it God knows delay will make sure of that

[Resistance]

7. are you awake Jim?

A lead military investigator of the '67 attack is now saying that he was ordered by Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara to conclude that the thing was an accident "despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary".

Think about that, for just two seconds please. Or, however long it takes to sink in.

[UpInArms]

8. well, I guess you got "shit" all over you

'cause you're the #2 poster on this thread

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

12. I believe you are looking at yourself in the mirror

The USS Liberty was attacked without provocation by Israel, an attack that lasted for 2 hours. Israeli gun boats machinegunned the Liberty's lifeboats. Clearly, Israel did not want any survivors.

The truth shall set us free!

[alfredo]

16. Those were my brothers on that ship

The men killed by the torpedo were working my specialty. I was a few hundred miles to the south when the murders happened. I knew, and all I was working with knew exactly what was going on. We had to keep our mouths shut for 30 years. Our anger at our leaders and Israel just festered inside. Every chance we get, we talk of the USS Liberty and the treachery of Israel and our pro Israel leaders/lapdogs.

the guess about the blaming it on Egypt is not what we understood. An Israeli unit led by Ariel Sharon was executing POW's an Arab villagers. Israel thought the USS Liberty was monitoring it, so they tried to kill all witnesses.

It didn't work.

I will never forget, I will never forgive.

edited due to Erdingers.

[TacticalPeek]

18. Clearly they wanted to take out the RF snooping.

It has also been alledged that they wanted secrecy for IDF movements, particularly toward Syria/Lebanon, until they had a fait accompli.

[Resistance]

31. Right

The most plausible explanation, in my view, is that Israel didn't want anyone to know of the massacres it was intent on committing on it's way to capturing the Golan Heights. The Liberty had to be taken out, so that Israel could turn and steal the Golan Heights without worry that the Americans (and the world) would know what was going on.

[Tinoire]

20. My specialty too

No one I ever met in Military Intelligence will ever forgive that incident and the complicit lies that were told.

This is a shameful incident made all the more shameful that all those service people were betrayed in the interests of a covering Israeli war crimes. http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9509/mass_graves/ & http://www.time.com/time/international/1995/951002/middleeast.html & http://www.ussliberty.org/washrp96.txt

www.ussliberty.org if you dare visit the survivors' web-site and hear what they have to say.

This web site is dedicated to the memory of thirty-four fine young men who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty
against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel.


Did Israel know the ship it was firing on 36 years ago—here, after the attack, listing from a deadly torpedo hit—was the USS Liberty? Today, top former U.S. intelligence officials are saying "Yes."

On 8 June 1967 the electronic intelligence ship USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was on station in international waters 13 miles off the Sinai Peninsula in the eastern Mediterranean. The Arab-Israeli War had wound down, the air was clear, and the seas were light. What happened early that Thursday afternoon is well known. Without warning, a furious attack on the ship commenced from Israeli Mirage and Mystere jets, followed by Ayah-class motor torpedo boats (MTBs). Employed were rockets, napalm, quick-firing 30-mm and 40-mm cannon, .50-caliber machine guns, and torpedoes. Four unshielded .50-caliber machine guns were the Liberty's only defense. The one Israeli torpedo hit of five launched left a yawning 40-foot hole in the hull, devastating the cryptological spaces below decks and killing 25 U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) technicians instantly.

Later, 821 shell holes were counted in the ship's superstructure and hull. A total of 34 men died, with another 172 wounded, many disfigured for life, among the highest peacetime tolls for any noncombatant U.S. Navy vessel and by far the worst single loss to the U.S. intelligence community. It seems a miracle the ship did not go down.

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm


Former NSA Officials Agree
David C. Walsh

The jamming of unique U.S. frequencies during the Liberty incident seems to establish deliberate intent. And in exclusive interviews with this author, several former high-level National Security Agency (NSA) officials agree.

On 14 February 2003, the "godfather" of the NSA's Auxiliary General Technical Research program, Oliver Kirby, noted that the Liberty was "my baby." Within weeks of the calamity, Kirby, deputy director for operations/production, read U.S. signals intelligence (SigInt)-generated transcripts and "staff reports" at NSA's Fort Meade, Maryland, headquarters. They were of Israeli pilots' conversations, recorded during the attack. The intercepts made it "absolutely certain" they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said. Kirby's is the first public disclosure by a top-level NSA senior of deliberate intent based on personal analyses of SigInt material.

In an interview on 24 February 2003, retired Air Force Major General John Morrison, the agency's then-second-in-command (and Kirby's successor), said he had been informed at the time of Kirby's findings and endorsed them. Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom said on 3 March 2003 said that, on the strength of such data, the attack's deliberateness "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the agency. On 5 March 2003, retired Navy Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, NSA director from 1977-1981, said he "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli thesis. "It is just exceedingly difficult to believe that was not correctly identified." He said this was based on his talks with NSA seniors at the time having direct knowledge. All four were unaware of any agency official at that time or later who dissented from the "deliberate" conclusion.

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm

[Flying_Pig]

21. Exactly what would it take Sagle, for you to admit that Israel....

wantonly killed these Americans? Exactly how much evidence do you need? Or perhaps you are convinced, but your comments indicate you simply don't give a shit?

I have a severe problem with someone who would dismiss the evidence presented in the manner you have. Your imbecilic retorts, and your continuing defense of the indefensible, give you about as much creditability as Ariel Sharon or George Bush.

Is there anything you would ever not side with Israel on?

:grr:

[Name removed]

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[Resistance]

36. great post

Israel deliberately murdered 34 American servicemen in the process of trying to sink the Liberty altogether, yet all the ultra-nationalists here can do is shrug their shoulders and pretend like there's no problem.

Now why is that?

[DoYouEverWonder]

142. delete

opps, posted by mistoke.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. Well, most of the time the criticism isn't said the best way

If you say "Israel is bad" some people are going to take that to mean that you think jews are bad. If you just make the extra effort to make it clear that it is the leadership and government of the country that you are upset with it will go a long way. Seriously, just try it and see the difference it makes.

[atreides1]

46. I Don't Think Jews Are Bad

I don't think all Jews are bad, I don't think that all Arabs are bad, I don't think that all Christians are bad.

But all of those groups contain sections who are evil and malicious, they would just as well shoot a child, and then try to make themselves into the victim.

I am not nor have I ever been anti-Jewish, if nothing else I'm anti-Stupid. I have Jewish friends, I have Muslim friends, I have friends who are black, white, red, yellow, and brown.

It is clear to any one who wants to see the truth that it's the government, or at least those who control the government of Israel that is currently responsible for the crisis. And the Palestinian leadership is just as much to blame.

And besides it wouldn't matter if that was presented to people like Jim Sagle or Herschel(sp)in a crystal clear format, they would still find an excuse to label me and others anti-semite.

In the case of the USS Liberty, the attack was condoned by the leadership of Israel, to try to force the Americans to get involved in the 1967 War.

We have heard of a former US Navy officer who wrote a book, with the conclusion being that it was all am accident. Of course most of his "evidence" was given to him by the Israeli government.

I'm sorry but you do not award the Congerssional Medal of Honor to the captain of a US Navy ship, because it was attacked by accident.

The main problem in my opinion is that the current hardliners leading Israel are being backed by their own right wing fundamentalist religious leaders, something that creatures like Falwell, Robertson, and Graham and others of that ilk are trying to do here.

Speaking for myself I will fight until my last breath to make sure that those evil men do not make my country into some sort of theocratic didtatorship.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting tired of being labeled an anti-semite because I speak out against the policies of the current government of Israel.

[Flying_Pig]

50. Please, this is not about Jews, this is about the Liberty.

It's about right and wrong. It's not about religion, or I/P issues. Though some here would like to turn the issue into something it isn't, their usual tactic in order to have a topic locked or moved, I hope the Mods will see through it this time, and allow this important story to be discussed further in the "light" of LBN.

[atreides1]

51. You're Right...

It is about right and wrong. I apologize for my part.

[Name removed]

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[Tom Yossarian Joad]

104. Well said. Criticizing an Israeli action is no more anti Semitic than

criticizing Bush is anti american. This is a condemnation of an action by a Government and NOT a condemnation of a people or religion.

[KaraokeKarlton]

71. Well, I'm tired of seeing people get labelled as jew-haters too

Which is exactly why I pointed out that it would serve critics of the Israeli government quite well if they typed "the government of Israel" instead of "Israel" when making that criticism. It DOES make a huge difference. Personally, I feel bad for the citizen of Israel just as much as I feel bad for the Palestinian citizens because all of them are caught up in the ignorant political masturbation of their leaders. It's pathetically sad and would almost be funny if it weren't so damn tragic. The citizens who live over there just want to live in peace and there are a few assholes on each side that won't let them. It's not the fault of one side over the other, just a few skidmarks on both sides, and that's all it really takes.

[Flying_Pig]

79. Good points KK...

n/t

[Gimel]

101. and vis versa eom

[Name removed]

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[Spazito]

40. There is no mention of I/P in this news article, it is about an incident..

that now has new information.

[Resistance]

42. Hey FP

you can't escape them bud

[Name removed]

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[Spazito]

96. Rachel Corrie was not on the USS Liberty, and what happened to the

Liberty and the new information covered in the article is the story posted.

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[Sesquipedalian]

129. I meant ISM

Yes, I have read the transcripts. They certainly don't qualify as "proof" of much of anything except that the helicopter crews were working under the impression they were to be approaching an Egyptian ship. This means very little. The helicopter crew also immediately identifies the American flag that apparently was so hard for the fighter crew and torpedo boats to spot. It raises as many questions as it answers questions.

You claim the notion that Israel might attack the US in an effort to implicate Nasser is a fancy of anti-semites. This was 1967, only 12 years after Operation Susannah where Israeli agents had conducted a series of terrorist bombings on various US targets in Cairo and Alexandria attempting to implicate Egyptians. It's not exactly a ridiculous notion.

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[Resistance]

128. yep

very enlightening.

[Tinoire]

123. Forget it. Not worth it.

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[fla nocount]

hmmm. Seems I'm a ghost of my former self.

Maybe it's the topic I need to stay away from.

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[thebigidea]

67. what a creepy post

[thebigidea]

28. the catchphrase that warmed the hearts of a generation

your pre-emptive strike sets the tone nicely.

[Flying_Pig]

32. Are you being sarcastic or supportive?

I can't quite tell.

[thebigidea]

58. if i were slightly more sarcastic, my post would be deleted

apparently its ok to post thousands of messages of white noise. I'm going to switch to a catchphrase too.

Potential candidates:

"This thread ain't nothing but truth I'd like to derail with some dipshit attempt at humor."

"This thread ain't nothing but something I can't read because I've got ideological blinders on handcrafted by Richard Perle."

"This thread ain't nothing but bad grammar."

"This thread ain't nothing but something I have to ignore or I start crying from the sheer hypocracy of it all."

[Flying_Pig]

63. You ARE funny...

I'll have to keep an eye out for your posts. Please do use some some of your finely crafted "white noise", it'll help brighten my day. Thanks for answering my query.

:hi:

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. Unfortunately, this was a cover up

The big question is, why? People sensitive to Jewish issues really need to understand that when people are critical to Israel it's not critism of Jews. It's criticism of the government and leadership of Israel, NOT the citizens who live there. Every government, our own included, does some pretty lousy things. We all know that Bush is a nasty, dirty leader who doesn't give a shit about others. Israel has had individuals in power who are just as bad. Ariel Sharon is one of those. That doesn't mean that jewish people are to blame for this. They aren't. Nor are we responsible for the evil that Bush does. Yes, the Israeli government purposely attacked an American military ship. We need to declassify all the documents and open an investigation to find out WHY. There are a few other things we need to look into as well. The government of Israel has shit on this country a few times and that's just not okay. Does that mean we shouldn't be allies with Israel? Of course not, but we DO need to hold the Israeli government accountable for the bad things they do the same as we would anyone else.

As for the USS Liberty...there were Jews on that ship who also believe that the attack was intentional. The survivors and the family members of those lost and who survived but have died deserve some answers. I have heard that there was a US submarine and a high flying intelligence gathering aircraft that witnessed the attack, and supposedly there is an actual film of the attack somewhere.

The History Channel has a documentary about the attack on the USS Liberty. You can buy the video from their website. I don't have a link, but I think you should try to watch this program at some point.
The survivors aren't against Jews, some of them ARE Jews...they just want an explanation and some answers. There's no reason why we can't give them that.

[Gimel]

108. Films don't show intention

nor motivation, or error. The fact that the ship was hit and the men killed is not disputed. Quite liikely the attack seemed intentional even if it was in error.

[KaraokeKarlton]

150. If you look at all the information it's very clear it wasn't an accident

Those who made the call to attack did something horrible. That doesn't mean that the entire country or the Jews of the world are responsible. There comes a time when you have to learn to separate the government and individual leaders of Israel from being Jewish or supportive of Jewish causes. ALL countries have evil individuals in positions of power. It's so sad that so many people want to stifle any criticism or questioning of such leaders or governmental policies in Israel. Clearly there are some problems that must be addressed if there is ever to be a lasting peace and true safety for the people who live in the region. This means that BOTH sides have got to hold those among themselves who contribute to the problem accountable for behavior that prevents peace. The longer everyone waits for the other side to be the one to make the first compromise the longer the Israeli and Palestinian children will have to live in fear of being killed. It's senseless. Strong and honorable people are open to constructive criticism and suggestions on how to improve themselves and do better. Israel (the government and leaders) MUST be open to criticism and those supportive of Israel need to not only allow it, but respect it and consider the facts fairly.

[rman]

112. best argument ever.

-

[Fitzovich]

4. NPR

Wasn't this on NPR months ago?

[fla nocount]

9. The Liberty stink will never go away.

It will fester and boil until it's removed or it kills the host. The attack on the Liberty was arrogant, stupid and will ultimately prove to be a bad, bad move. "Remember the Liberty" is already a rallying cry with far too few voices. The expose of a few more duplicities is all it would take for it to boil over IMO.

[kodi]

11. 'bout friggin' time.

the gulf of tonkin resolution was enacted for a lot less, like no deaths or destruction of US military property.

we should have bombed tel aviv immediately.

[Darranar]

151. And killed MORE innocent people?

[PartyPooper]

13. Johnson and McNamara remind me of Bush and Rumsfeld.

...illegal wars, murders, lies, deceptions, denials, political expediencies, and cover-ups!

Did I leave anything out?

[moof]

14. Treason

n/t

[Octafish]

41. Treason in high places for a loooooong time, it seems.

And if they lied about what happened to the USS Liberty, what else did LBJ and McNamara lie about?

• JFK in Dallas?
• Gulf of Tonkin?
• Vietnam?

Then came the professional liar Richard Nixon. Apart from a couple of intervening administration's it's pretty much been ALL TREASON since then.

[fob]

74. My thoughts too. Sure is lucky for bush* to have a prominent

Dem on the front pages taking hits for treason/traitor issues. What a truly lucky break this guy decide now to come out. bush* sure is lucky.

Sarcasm above reserved for bush* crime family, not members of USS Liberty, RIP.

[0007]

138. Yes!

Cutting up the big pie with the Carlyle Boys! How much?

[KoKo]

15. Ret. Admiral Moorer at the Press Conf. said "Classic American Cover Up!

" It was "one of the classic all-American cover-ups," said Ret. Adm.
Thomas Moorer, a former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman who spent a year
investigating the attack as part of an independent panel he formed with
other former military officials. The panel also included a former U.S.
ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins. "

[TacticalPeek]

17. Maybe McNamara will come to Jesus one more time?

If Adm Moorer, the Israeli Amb, and others can comment, why not get McNamara on the current record? This matter needs the light of day.

[Malikshah]

19. Paul Bamford's voice needs to be added

His work on the NSA and the monitoring that we have on the event...

It's in his work on the NSA.

There are those with the US and Israeli governments that owe the the survivors, victims, victims families, and the US populace a huge apology-- at the very least.

This will indeed fester until it is dealt with openly by all sides.

[Resistance]

30. Do you mean James Bamford?

Who wrote Body of Secrets?

[Malikshah]

33. Yes--

Sorry--don't know what possessed me to say Paul...

Thanks.

[suegeo]

70. A entire chapter in the book...

I read that book, Body of Secrets, by Bamford.

The book has a chapter devoted to what the NSA knew about what happened to the Liberty that day (One of our spy plane was flying above).

This chapter is a good read...

The book also documents Operation Northwoods, which was one of the Joint Chief's plans to terrorize US Citizens (including killing some of us,) blame the terror on Cuba, so that the rambo rangers could then invade Cuba. JFK said “No” to the plans. And we all know what later transpired with JFK, eh.

[TrogL]

23. Why is this late breaking news?

Are you aware that this old, old issue is a favourite of White Supremacists??

It's prominantly displayed on their websites.

What's going on?

[Flying_Pig]

24. What an insult to those who died TrogL. This is a current AP story

that was posted on Yahoo News a little over an hour ago. Did you readthe story Trog? Apparently not, or you would realize that there is new information on this tragedy.

To fluff it off as simply a story of "white supremacists" is an insult to everyone who has posted on this thread, and to the Americans who were killed.

:grr:

[Spazito]

25. As the person who posted the story, thanks!

I posted it because it was a legitimate story on a legitimate site.

[Name removed]

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[Spazito]

45. This is an article about an incident that has new information that has...

come out. It is not an I/P article. I hope we can focus on the article's information, etc.

[Name removed]

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[Flying_Pig]

61. It is not a "haven" for this Jew, and won't be until they elect a

government and leaders who will restore moral purpose. That is the difference between me (and others like me), and those who are willing to give Israel a free pass no matter their transgressions, be it the attack on the Liberty, or on illegal settlements. I will not compromise my morals, nor my sense of right and wrong, not for Israel, or anything else. I guess that makes me a bad person in the eyes of many, but hey, I can handle it.

[Name removed]

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[Flying_Pig]

73. I can see you are unwilling to stay focused on the arguments

and issues concerning the Liberty, though in the spirit of discussion, you did post a couple of things that added to the discussion.

But then, you posted this:

"Even anti-Israeli Jews, self-hating Jews and anti-Semitic Jews can find a home there and would be free to maintain their destructive beliefs even as they lived in Israel as full citizens."

Though I am none of the above, you have used this discussion and forum to make thinly veiled insinuations of the most disgusting kind. This seems to be the now all too familiar tactic of those who are on the losing end of logical arguments, in that they invariably resort to innuendo and character attack as a last desperate measure.

No matter, the shoe does not fit, and your comments have exposed you for who and what you are. Good enough.

And may I remind you again, that this thread is about the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, and should be about nothing else.

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[Tinoire]

26. Not to mention the American Jews who were on that ship

Say that to George Golden, the senior engineering officer who is Jewish and he'll punch the daylights out of you.

[TrogL]

65. But it's not new

This website, from 2002 talks about it.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

Here's another one from july

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20030716205911706

and from june 2002

http://members.aol.com/w4mh/navytime.txt

[Flying_Pig]

82. What don't you understand that THIS thread concerns a new

story related to the old story. Is it not a "new" story when NEW information comes to light concerning an old case? Of course it is, so why do you have a problem with it?

[TrogL]

160. Is this the "new" story?

...Robert McNamara ... ordered that the inquiry conclude the incident was an accident...

If so, I believe this is new, but I'd have to check. I just get really suspicious whenever this story pops up again.

[Malikshah]

34. The logic of the "white supremacist" argument is pathetic

Folks like the David Duke idiots and the like will always find whatever they can to attack various groups.

To write of the story because of that without taking the time to read the report shows the complete descent of some into vapidity.

Shame on those who do so.

[TrogL]

69. Do you want me to start listing the sites?

Retired Navy legal counsel Capt. Ward Boston says he and the court's president, the late Rear Adm. Isaac "Ike" Kidd, always believed Israeli forces knowingly attacked the Liberty.

"I feel the Israelis knew what they were doing. They knew they were shooting at a U.S. Navy ship," said Boston, who lives in Coronado, Calif. "That's the bottom line. I don't care how they tried to get out of it."

That's off one of them.

[Malikshah]

85. In agreement

I think you might have misread my post--not sure, though.

The argument made to "poo poo" any works on the USS Liberty or the myths of Israel's creation (i.e. Simha Flapan's work) often use the argument that folks like David Duke and others refer to these works--and thus they (the works) must be "anti-semitic" or worse.

That argument's logic is false and weak.

[Sesquipedalian]

107. that's guilt by association

it's a bullshit rhetorical tactic, if David Duke says the sky appears to be blue the sky is still blue.

[TrogL]

158. If David Duke keeps bringing up blue skies

I gotta ask why.

[Blitz]

44. Here is a frank interview with the pilot who attacked the Liberty

. . .

After 36 years Spector, who this week was dismissed by the IAF for signing the pilots' refusal letter protesting the policy of targeted killings, agreed to speak to a reporter for the first time on his role in the attack on the Liberty, an American spy ship strafed on the fourth day of the war.

. . .

Spector had always refused to discuss the attack on the USS Liberty, which killed 34 US sailors and wounded 172, or even be revealed as the pilot who led the attack on her. Until now.

. . .

"It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck," he told The Jerusalem Post. "This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours." The concern of the IAF was that Spector and his wingman, who had been diverted from the Suez Canal, would strike one of the Israel Navy ships in pursuit of the vessel, which was assumed to be Egyptian. IAF archival recordings of the pilots' radio transmission of the actual attack obtained by the Post show that Spector was specifically requested to verify that the ship was a military vessel and not Israeli.

. . .

"I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag. Just to make sure I photographed it," said Spector, who retired from active duty as a brigadier-general in 1984.

. . .

The 30mm rounds were armor piercing, which to this day led Liberty survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. Spector's first pass ignited a fire which caused the ship to billow black smoke. Ironically, Spector transmitted he suspected the Liberty was putting out smoke to deliberately mask itself.

. . .

"I'm sorry for the mistake. Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked," Spector said. "I'm the last guy who has a problem with admitting mistakes and asking for forgiveness. There was a mistake, but it wasn't my mistake." He added he remains baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.

. . .

Whole article here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1065773796483

[PsychoDad]

48. American sailors on the ship

State that the american flag was flying and visible. And that the ship attempted to contact the attacking forces.
So it comes down to someone is lying?

A question of who do we belive. The American servicemen who were on the ship, or the Israeli servicemen who attacked the ship.

[atreides1]

54. At This Point....

I'll beleive the sailors who were on the ship. Even the USS Pueblo had it's colors flying.

And I have never seen a US Navy vessel, except ones in dry dock not flying its colors during the day.

[Blitz]

55. It doesn't mean that someone is lying

It is entirely possible that the flag was not seen by the pilots. It is not in dispute that it was shot down on the first strafing run.

As for contacting the attacking forces, there is an ocean of difference between "attempted to contact" and "contacted."

Perhaps you should educate yourself on this incident. Of course, in light of your "Israel doesn't care about the Jews" post from the Marxist site, I doubt that facts will put a dent into your convictions:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Here are he actual audio recordings and transcripts from the attack which were recently released by the NSA:

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/liberty.html

[fla nocount]

62. I dunno

The attack lasted two hours. Gunboats in the water were close enough to make a focused attempt to take out the ships' lifeboats. It would seem that a prolonged and close attack would give an opportunity for identification. The length of the attack would also suggest that the US could have sent aid to the Liberty's defense. The Naval Air Station in Rota comes to mind but there was probably something closer.

Let's admit it folks, there booger's in the bushes that we know nothing about and each one has their own agenda. As long as we chose to identify ourselves with any particular nation, race or creed we ourselves will feel either offensive or defensive to the booger's actions. The motto is.....don't play with boogers.

[rman]

115. broad daylight, 7 hours reconnaissance, it was carrying the US flag

http://www.ussliberty.org

[Tinoire]

120. I prefer the testimony of the NSA boys!

You don't expect anyone to take the testimony of an Israeli pilot do you? :eyes:

Statement by JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas H. Moorer

From: Admiral Thomas H. Moorer

Subject: Attack on the USS Liberty June 8, 1967

Date: June 8, 1997

I have never believed that the attack on the USS Liberty was a case of mistaken identity. That is ridiculous. I have flown over the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, thousands of hours, searching for ships and identifying all types of ships at sea. The Liberty was the ugliest, strangest looking ship in the U.S. Navy. As a communications intelligence ship, it was sprouting every kind of antenna. It looked like a lobster with all those projections moving every which way.

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight
hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington.
<snip>

I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Up to the point where the torpedo boats were sent in, you could speculate on that point. You have to remember that the Liberty was an intelligence ship, not a fighting ship, and its only defensive weapons were a pair of 50-caliber machine guns both aft and on the forecastle.


With the Liberty riddled with holes, fires burning, and scores of casualties, three Israeli torpedo boats closed in for the kill. The second of three torpedoes ripped through a compartment at amidships, drowning 25 of the men in that section. Then the torpedo boats closed to within 100 feet of the Liberty to continue the attack with cannons and machine guns, resulting in further casualties. It is telling, with respect to whether total annihilation was the intent, that the Liberty crew has reported that the torpedo boats' machine guns also were turned on life rafts that were deployed into the Mediterranean as well as those few on deck that had escaped damage.

<snip>
http://www.ussliberty.org/moorer3.txt

======================
Statement by former Air Force intelligence analyst Stephen Forslund:

<snip>

On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller. I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller. Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying. There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs. The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating. The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally.

The aircraft eventually broke off and we received no further transcripts of the event. I have since learned in later descriptions of the attack that torpedo boats attacked the Liberty also. I saw neither intercepts nor analyses that addressed that attack. An hour or two later I was discussing the event with a team member and he stated they had received, during the time frame of the attack, an intercept of a US State Department message to Israel stating that the United States had full evidence of what had occurred in the attack on the Liberty and strongly warning Israel to cease activities immediately.

http://www.ussliberty.org/forslund.htm

---------

DECLARATION OF JAMES RONALD GOTCHER

7. It was clear from the explicit statements made by both the aircraft crews and the controllers that the aircraft were flying a planned mission to find and sink USS Liberty.

8. My understanding of what I read led me to conclude that the Israeli pilots were making every effort possible to sink USS Liberty and were very frustrated by their inability to do so.

9. Approximately ten days to two weeks later, we received an internal NSA report, summarizing the Agency’s findings. The report stated, in no uncertain terms, that the attack was planned in advance and deliberately executed. The mission was to sink USS Liberty.

10. A few days after the report arrived, another message came through directing the document control officer to gather and destroy all copies of both the rough and final intercept translations, as well as the subsequently issued report.

<snip>

12. I have read the translated transcripts, released by the Israeli government, which purport to be actual transcripts of the air to ground communications between the controllers and the attacking aircraft. I know this document to be a fabrication because I have read the actual intercepts and they were nothing like this. It is not possible that the differences could be due to different translations being used.

<snip>

Dated: September 2, 2003

http://www.ussliberty.org/jrgstmt.pdf

[ProfessorGAC]

53. Ya Think?!?!?!?

Who didn't already suspect this was true?

An accident which involved multiple attacks?

They attacked by accident more than once?

Of course this was a coverup to protect an ally who made a colossal blunder, miscalculation, or whatever you want to call it.
The Professor

[Blitz]

57. Here is the actual Audio from the attack

And transcripts in English which were recently released by the NSA.

Anti-semites, and others who hate Israel, as well as sailors who were personally involved in that unfortunate incident will continue to believe what they believe and no amount of evidence will sway them. However, the following should have some impact on any objective observers:

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/liberty.html

[Resistance]

60. a response

written by Jim Ennes, an officer aboard the USS Liberty at the time of the attack:

http://www.ussliberty.org/washrp03.txt



NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY DOCUMENTS ON
ATTACK ON USS LIBERTY PROVE WHAT?
By James M. Ennes

LIBERTY survivors were pleased when we learned in June that
apologists for our attackers had asked the federal courts to
order the release of key intercept transcripts compiled dur-
ing the attack. These, we knew, would prove our case and
disprove that of the apologists.

Instead of releasing transcripts of the attack itself,
however, the National Security Agency (NSA) released signals
intelligence transcripts collected AFTER the attack --
radio messages from helicopter pilots who came out afterward
to clean up.

What a disappointment. We had hoped for some of the comm-
unications we know took place between the Israeli jet pilots
and their headquarters, but those were not released.

Nevertheless, to our astonishment, the pro-Israel PR team
put their own false spin on what was released. The July 9
HA'ARETZ released the story with a new twist: "U.S. Agency
Confirms USS LIBERTY Was An Accident." Despite
the fact that nothing in the documents released suggests that
it was an accident, this false account was picked up by media
from THE BOSTON GLOBE to CNN, and repeated as established
fact -- often with quotes from Chief Apologist A. Jay Cristol,
proclaiming victory.

But the released materials reveal no such thing. The NSA
intercepts show only that the helicopter pilots were confused
about the ship's identity until they arrived about 75 minutes
after the first shots were fired. Intercept of the attack
itself -- not released, but which has been seen by senior NSA
sources and others -- show that in fact our attackers did know
they were attacking an American ship. Israel has managed once
again to get wide attention for a headline that gives a totally
false account of reality.

[Zhade]

80. Oh, give the anti-semitism gambit a rest already.

Some of the very people who understand what happened with the Liberty are JEWISH.

It's just like that idiot ambassador I wrote to who stated the ISM is anti-semitic, when half the membership is Jewish, including Israelis.

Criticism of the Israeli government is not criticism of the Israeli people, nor of Jews worldwide.

[Blitz]

84. Just because people are Jewish

doesn't mean that they're not anti-semites. Certain members of the ISM, an organization that actively supports people who wish to drive every Jew in Israel into the sea, are excellent examples of this fact.

What's the name of that ambassador that you wrote to? I'll make time to send him the "attaboy" that he obviously deserves.

[Resistance]

89. That is totally false

the ISM doesn't "actively support" terrorists.

The fact is that Rachel Corrie was intentionally murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver, which was followed by the shooting in the face of another ISM activist by a brave Israeli soldier, and then weeks later the murder of British ISM peace activist Tom Hurndall by another brave Israeli soldier. How brave those punks in IDF uniforms are, eh? To murder some non-violent peace activists? Probably they were ordered to take out the ISM members by more punks who call themselves officers of the Israeli army.

Yet all you can do is smear the peaceful organization, in your obnoxious attempts to defend IDF terrorism.

Way to go, Blitz. Great job.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[PsychoDad]

88. My friend,

Because one does not agree with the policies of the state of Israel, and may in fact strongly oppose such policies, does not make one anti-semetic.
In point of fact, as the term "Anti-semitic" is so easly, quickly and often thrown about, I decided to find out exactaly what a semite was. I consulted the Merriam online dictonary and found the following.

Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: 'se-"mIt, esp British 'sE-"mIt
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Semitic Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek SEm, from Hebrew ShEm
Date: 1848
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

So, Arabs, and I would guess palistinians, would be semites.. so a dislike of arabs would also quallify as anti-semitism. Auctally, to be liberal, I wouldn't even say "dislike". you can dislike something and still not be "anti" perhaps against or opposed would be a better word for the use of "anti". Wouldn't you agree? I find myself opposed to many things and persons, most of whom I don't hate or even dislike.
So Anti-Semitism would be someone opposed to Jews and/or Arabs. Sounds more like the current US policy toward the Mideast. And the attitudes of Israel toward the Arabs, and the Arabs toward Israel. I myself have a hard time understanding how one can be opposed or against another's heritage, But many people are. Often from Ignorance and arrogance. But I suspect these reasons are only used to cover up the real issues that started the conflict.

But back to the topic at hand.
The attacking Israeli forces had 2 hours to identify the ship. American navel vessels are marked with various identifying markings. Markings which I would suppose are particular to that ship and nation.
Perhaps someone on this board who is a naval serviceman or woman could tell us how easy it is to mistake an egyptian ship for an american. I would value their opinion, and if they say it is possible, perhaps likely that there was a misidentification, I shall take their word for that.
Then I shall perhaps give the attacking israelis the benifit of the doubt. But the fact remains. Israel, knowing or unknowing, commited an act of war. America has attacked other countries for far less provocation.

[Blitz]

92. First, I am not your friend

My friends get to call me "my friend."

Second, you have introduced a tired and extraordinarily poor argument with respect to the meaning of the term anti-semite, which applies ONLY to Jews. Allow me to educate you:

The word "anti-Semite" was coined by a German Jew hater named Wilhelm Marr in 1879, because he percieved that the term "Judenhass" was not genteel. It was vulgar. At the time, racial Darwinism was all the rage, and the use of "semite" in place of Jew made the term sound vaguely scientific: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t049/t04906.html

If you look in any reputable dictionary at all, you will see that the term refers specifically to Jew-hatred:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

http://www.bartleby.com/61/91/A0349100.html

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=3203&dict=CALD

Various anti-Jewish and anti-Israel groups have been trying to co-opt this term for about two generations but, unfortunately for them, pesky things like facts keep getting in the way.

As for the matter at hand, the pilot of the fighter jet, who has little reason to lie (and, as a refusenik, is hardly a tool of Likud), states unequivocally that the attack was an accident and the intercepted communications that I posted earlier showed that, even after the attack, the Israeli armed forces clearly believed that they were dealing with an Egyptian vessel and most certainly had NOT identified it as American.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[drewb]

154. Nahhhh... Sometimes I have flashes of lucidity...

n/t

[PsychoDad]

149. Thank you for clearing that up.

I see. Semite refers to Arabs, Jews and others, while the term anti-semite is limited to and reserved only for jews. Honestly I was not aware of this distinction, that the term Anti-semite refered to only one group of semitic peoples as it does seem to. Thank you for clearing that up.
Although still, wouldn't anti-jewish be a better and more accurate term? And, I must admit, it seems ironic that a "jew hater" from the 1800's is defining the language today's jews use, particullary a term that itself is now used as an epitapth of derision.

But back on topic, I understand your viewpoint, if not agree with it. For my part I am still waiting for an American or other naval person to tell me if such a mistake is likily.

As for the NSA recordings, If this were a cover-up, wouldn't you expect the government to produce evidence to suport the cover-up story? Much like our government's evidence of WMD in Iraq.

[Gimel]

114. Ship's ID

The attacking Israeli forces had 2 hours to identify the ship. American navel vessels are marked with various identifying markings. Markings which I would suppose are particular to that ship and nation.


It has been noted that the attack lasted for two hours. It doesn't seem like there were two hours to identify the ship. That would have been done the moment the orders were given. The person responsible for giving the order could have been wrong. During war time, ships frequently disguise themselves. That's something Johnson may have known. Was the ship siling in disguise, without flying colors? If so, that would have been documented in the ship's log.

[Flying_Pig]

122. Ah yes If excuses were shekels, ..........

we would be rich now from all on this thread. It continues to amaze me how people see what they want to see, despite any facts to the contrary. It simply reinforces my belief that there are those who would defend the actions of the Israeli government, no matter what they were. The living proof is here, and in I/P, on a daily basis. Quite enlightening actually.

[PsychoDad]

152. I would agreee...

Maybe the inital attack was a mistake. But how easy would such a mistake be and would't someone catch on in all that time? Remember it was not only planes, which because of distance may have made a misidentification, but there were also torpedo boats, which I assume were much closer.
I don't know how easy it would be to tell the USS Liberty from an egyptian ship. I would like to find out.

On Edit: I found this statement by an NSA person as posted by Tinore interesting..
In part...
Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight
hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington.

[Shakespeare]

145. ah, the logical fallacy

Sorry, Blitz--just because someone believe that there's a coverup on the Liberty tragedy does not make them anti-semitic or Israel haters.

[Blitz]

147. A logical fallacy indeed

I have never said that anyone who believes that there's a coverup regarding the USS Liberty is, de facto, anti-semitic or an Israel hater. However, any objective observer would have to agree that both anti-semites and Israel haters (two groups which, for obvious reasons, have a great deal of overlap) have sought to use the Liberty incident to their advantage in furthering their anti-semitic, anti-Israeli objectives. One need only do a google search of "USS Liberty" and see the various hate-sites that pop up to verify this fact.

Speaking of the Liberty Incident, Judge Cristol's book of that same name is an excellent and educational read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/157488414X/qid=1044272319/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-5644907-0320762?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[TahitiNut]

64. REMINDER ...

From MESSAGE BOARD RULES (LONG VERSION):

Due to continuing problems, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is limited to the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum, and is governed by a special set of rules which are available in that forum. If a discussion is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, it is still allowed in other forums. Discussion of other Middle East issues is also allowed. If a thread is on a different topic, but later goes off-topic and becomes a discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues, the moderators may move the thread to the Foreign Affairs/National Security forum.

From Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum:

7. Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum.

If you have a complaint about these policies or the decisions of moderators, please take them to the Ask the Administrators forum. Alternatively, you may send a message to [e-mail] or a personal message to Skinner, EarlG, or elad. Do NOT post them here.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator

[Flying_Pig]

75. Thank you. Hard as some try, there are those who seem to drive

threads like this into, um, I/P. Thanks for hanging in there so far, and keeping it in LBN. If every time an issue that pops up on LBN that concerns these issues, and/or, those concerning Israel in general, the thread were moved to I/P, I feel it would be a great disservice in the dissemination of relevant news to the general DU community.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience to witness some posters, on both sides, who deliberately try to "flame-fest" these threads in an effort to have them moved or locked. I am extremely grateful to you and the other Mods when you do not allow them to do this, as it allows small groups to manipulate the news other DU'ers should be learning about.

Again, thanks for your patience on this high-passion thread.

[eablair3]

68. This is just more compelling proof - Time to go after Israel - Media?

It's high time that they open a congressional hearing or better yet, an "independent inquiry, into this. Those American servicemen, dead and injured, deserve nothing less. Let the chips fall where they may, and let the truth about Israel come out to the American people.

Is the big corporate TV media covering this? I don't usually get a chance to watch CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, MSNBC, etc. Anyone seen this on TV? Is it getting any, or much, airtime?

[UnapologeticLiberal]

72. I still think it was an accident

Because what motive would Israel possibly have for attacking an American ship?

[KaraokeKarlton]

77. There are several reasons

They are discussed at www.ussliberty.org

The Israeli government has pulled plenty of fast ones on the US. They've spied on us, sold classified military secrets to the Soviet Unions in exchange of letting Russian Jews go to Israel, offered military secrets to China. Look what was done in Qana and the horrendous massacres Sharon let happen in Lebanon. There is certainly some of the same bad behavior in the government and leadership of Israel as there is in any other government. The most frustrating part regarding Israel is that whenever someone tries to discuss these things, too many people take it as a personal attack on jews. It's really unfortunate this happens. No one is saying that just because the leadership of Israel has done some despicable things that Israel doesn't deserve to exist. Fear will lead some to behave quite horribly...and that fear is exactly what fuels those supportive of Israel to be so defensive. This does need to stop because criticism of the government of Israel is NOT criticism of Jews.

[Gimel]

117. You've made your point

Israelis criticize their government. But when characterizations are made that are grossly unjust, then a line has to be drawn. When humans are never given the benefit of the doubt when acting under conditions of conflict and warfare, I doubt the motives of the armchair critic.

[Resistance]

121. Frankly

I doubt the motives of the ultra-nationalist who falsely slanders a murdered peace activist as a "misguided person who supports terrorism"

[KaraokeKarlton]

155. Well that really doesn't help matters any

This is the problem with anyone trying to discuss anything involving Israel. Jewish people are rightly somewhat sensitive to persecution. They do have a reason to be concerned about that. That doesn't mean it's okay to label any criticism of Israel as being anti-semetic either. The ONLY way to successfully debate these issues is to respect the feelings of those with opposing views. If you can't do that it just turns into a nasty pissing contest culminating in a circular wall of flames. There are better ways. Both sides of these issues ought to take a step back and think before typing. It might actually make a mature discussion possible.

[KaraokeKarlton]

153. But have you looked honestly and fairly at the facts?

I have. I have actually met some survivors and they just want to understand why. They feel betrayed by the US government. Yes, they are upset with those in Israel's government that ordered the attack, but they are very angry with the US government. There was never a Congressional Investigation into the attack. Most of the documents are still classified and there certainly are enough facts to justify an investigation and declassification of those documents. If you honestly believe that the Israeli and American government has nothing to hide from the citizens of both countries, then you should support the investiagtion being done and the declassification of those documents within both governments. Let's get ALL the information available and find out exactly what happened and why. See, the survivors of the USS Liberty has been trying for decades to get that investigation. Every politician who has supported the investigation has been unfairly labelled anit-semetic and their character has been assassinated by this tendency to claim that any criticism of the Israeli government is in some way anti-jew. We criticize Bush and find it both offensive and unfair when we are called anti-American for it. There is no difference. You could do your part to help clear the Israeli government if you truly believe it was an accident. Would you support an investigation?

[Flying_Pig]

83. You know, I would very much like to agree, but from what I've read

both here, and from other sources, I am sorry to say that I can no longer accept that it was an accident. I am not happy with this conclusion, but the facts support it, and nothing I , nor anyone else, can do to change them. I truly wish it weren't so. Having said that, I am of course, open to any evidence to the contrary.

[Sesquipedalian]

124. If they sank it..

and blamed it on Egypt they could have brought the US into the war.

[Blitz]

143. Can you explain why on earth Israel would want to do that

when, on June 8, 1967, Israel had already largely won the war and had its enemies in full retreat? Israel had victory in hand by that time. What, exactly, did it stand to gain by bringing ANYONE, including the U.S. into the war?

It's just another conspiracy theory marred by those annoying facts.

[Blitz]

130. Anybody who is sincerely interested

in knowing what happened that day and why should start by reading this article:

http://www.shalem.org.il/azure/9-Oren.htm

It is remarkably level headed and even-handed, assigning blame to all parties as appropriate.

[Flying_Pig]

140. I would suggest to anyone sincerely interested in learning about

the truth of the U.S.S. Liberty matter, to resolutely avoid any link put forth by someone who crudely, and loudly, celebrates the death of peace activists. It would be a very good time for one to consider the source, and rather, start with some sources (there are several posted here) that would not offer the slanted views presented and supported by this poster.

Buyer beware.

[Blitz]

141. That's right ...

Whatever you do, don't read the information!!! It will just pollute your minds!!

Oh, and it's nice to see that you continue to spread the lie that Rachel Corrie, a hatemonger, was a peace activist. Abigail Litle was a peace activist. Quick, go look up who she was.

And please refer me to the post where I celebrated ANYONE'S death. I have repeatedly stated, both in this thread and elsewhere, that the death of Rachel Corrie was a tragedy, though my reasons for thinking so may differ from yours.

[durutti]

146. My Recommendation

Examine what both sides have to say. Draw your own conclusion.

[Blitz]

148. An excellent recommendation

One that I hope that anyone who is interested in this subject will take to heart.

[KaraokeKarlton]

156. I think both sides need to support a full Congressional Investigation

It's long overdue and there are tons of still classified documents on the incident that need to be made available to the public. Israel should declassify whatever they have as well. For what it's worth, I DO think the attack was intentional, but I DON'T think much of Israel's government was involved in it. My reason for thinking this is that the previous "watch" had already identified the ship as American and had marked it as such in what must have been some war room. I suspect that whoever was in charge on the next watch and perhaps a few military leaders acted on their own. Whatever happened, this needs to be dealt with once and for all, for the good of everyone. Sort it out, perhaps punish anyone found to have committed any crime and put out a public and truthful statement for the citizens of both countries so we can just move on and give those victims of this attack the respect, justice and explanation they deserve.

[TahitiNut]

163. Locking

As the number of deleted messages indicate. the discussion was not directly relevant to the story posted ("Cover-Up Alleged in Probe of USS Liberty"). Despite a reminder, personal attacks, complaints about other DUers, complaints about DU policies, administration, and moderation, and completely irrelevant I/PA issues and events got dragged out and rehashed. This thread is locked.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator