England says love prompted abuse photos

[ECH1969]

Isolated amid the chaos and often bizarre life inside Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, Lynndie England posed in now notorious abuse photographs because she loved and trusted the scandal ringleader, her lawyer said at the start of her court-martial.

England, 22, who was pictured holding a leash to a naked Iraqi prisoner, was lured into posing for the photographs that caused worldwide outrage by Charles Graner, the father of her baby, said military attorney Capt. Jonathan Crisp.

"What mattered to her was her relationship to Corp. Graner," said Crisp, who added that Graner was her superior officer, was 14 years older than England and had worked as a prison guard.

"She thinks: 'I love him, he loves me, he's not going to do something to hurt me,'" Crisp said in opening arguments.

http://seven.com.au/news/worldnews/108846

[meisje]

1. Baby, I luv you, now hold this here leash!

[saigon68]

37. HERE IT IS

[Kurovski]

47. Ahhh, ain't gap-toothed love grand?

Crazy, corrupt bullshitters.

"Good Germans", even down to the twisted sense of romance.

[genieroze]

2. Isn't that special.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[rodeodance]

5. I hope this women is getting some mental health treatment. She is one

messed up woman!

[ret5hd]

3. DAMMIT! now i got that damn purple dinosaur song going...

thru my head:

I love him'
he loves me,
he's not going to do something to hurt me

[mdelaguna2000]

18. Hahahahaha - ME TOO now thanks to you

[the_spectator]

4. This, surely, is the obvious and appropriate response:

:nopity:

[bunkerbuster1]

36. basss-tarrrrds!

that is a horrible, horrible earworm to have.

I love you,
You love me,
We're a happy family,
with a great big hug,
and a kiss from me to you,
Won't you say you love me TOO!

I love you,
You love me,
We're best friends like friends should be,
With a great big hug,
And a kiss from me to you,
Won't you say you love
me
too

[El Supremo]

6. Good excuse but...

Why was Lynndie England in the Army to begin with? At least - she should have never been sent to Iraq.

Before someone jumps me for being anti-women in the military, I mean because of her admitted mental challenges.

[Kurovski]

48. She might have been chosen for that reason.

Her hump-pal was a known abusive prison guard in the US, and there he was, sent to work in a prison in Iraq.

[SpiralHawk]

7. "What I did for love..."

With this begins many a tale of woe.

[samdogmom]

8. I'm so conflicted about this situation...

Ms. England is obviously a very low cog on the wheel in this debacle, but the pictures she posed for are hard to forgive. I can't imagine humans treating other humans the way these prisoners were treated. I've never been in the military, so I don't know how one would gracefully refuse an order, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be grinning and holding a "thumbs up" pose for a degrading photograph of a prisoner. On the other hand, give me a break. She's so far down in the pecking order--get Gonzales, Rumsfeldt, Cheney and all of the other CHICKENHAWK, powerful administration officials that ORDERED this behavior and prosecute them please!

[noamnety]

11. Here's how you refuse an order

You tell the boss you have an ethical problem with it, and you won't be part of it. I've been in the military, I've said those words to my commanding officer. He was pissed, but he didn't take any action against me; I'm guessing because he knew I was right.

There are 1-800 numbers all over the place you can call to anonymously report an illegal order or ethics problem. So even if you complied once because you didn't feel you could say no to an order, you could go back and call the IG the same day to report it.

You can also have your unit officer put a letter for the record into your own file, documenting that you formally objected to a particular order.

I'm with you, though, on being torn. No commander should EVER allow their troops to take the blame for something they were responsible for.
It's unbelievable to me that they would give illegal orders, then protect their own asses while allowing the people who followed their orders to fry (while whining that gays in the military are bad for morale).

[samdogmom]

14. Thanks! It makes me feel better to know you don't have to do unethical

things just because you've been ordered to do so by a superior officer. My opinion on the England situation changes because of this. No sympathy now. But, I still want the BIG GUYS to fry too.

[Infomaniac]

17. Do the 1-800 numbers work in Iraq?

Just asking. I don't have a damn clue. My own take on it is she had more of a follower personality, which an authoritarian place like the military would only strengthen. That and she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer and you get someone who does horrible things like what happened in Abu Grabass. The banality of evil and the sheer ordinary nature of the folks who undertake is unfortunately more common than we'd like to think. I don't think the "I did it for love" thing is going to work for her; but what kind of defense would? She ate too many twinkies? The defense lawyers are working with very little here.

[jody]

20. You tell an interesting tale. What was the ethical problem to which

you objected and successfully challenged your commanding officer and how was it comparable to the problem that England faced?

[noamnety]

44. I've been in several situations

all stateside, so perhaps not comparable at all.

One case involved a misappropriation of funds - there was a program to fund a particular effort to replace something, and my boss (an LTC) was just giving the items away free rather than using them to replace faulty ones.

Another time there was a moderately serious security violation which my commander committed (a different LTC). I wrote it up, and submitted it up through the chain - which was my job, I was the security manager and I worked for him, but also it was sticky, because the reporting procedures required that the program manager had to sign off on my report. Naturally he was the program manager.

I've also reported the first guy for a separate ethics issue, which required going to his boss - and I had to go through him to make the appointment to speak to his supervisor - which led to him wanting to know why, and them him demanding to be present. So it was quite awkward and involved some pretty harsh words. But at the end of the day, you do what you have to do.

The command also had a confidential Dial-a-boss program, in addition to the option to call the IG. I was never one for the anonymous reporting, but if I'd been more comfortable with that, it was always there as an option.

[jody]

46. The personal examples you give are very different from England's case.

According to your statements, you reported (a) a possible misappropriation of funds, (b) a moderately serious security violation, and (c) a separate ethics issue.

None of those incidents involved you disobeying an order as England would have done if she chose not to use the lease.

[noamnety]

49. Yes, the situations are different

I've never been told to torture a person, if that's what you mean.

The process of reporting one's supervisor remains the same, as does the threat of personal retaliation.

[jody]

51. Given that the circumstances are different, your and my lack of knowledge

about the specifics of England's case means that neither of us can offer expert counsel on what she should and should not have done.

I believe there are many DU participants who have considerable command experience who might view England's case as very murky based solely on what the media hypes.

It appears the Bush administration gave legal and command guidance from the office of the Commander in Chief such that the lease, photos, and other humiliating acts might have been in a very gray area. If that's true, then it's to much to demand that England parse legal nuances.

[reformedrepub]

25. circumstances

lw,
You said this to your commander while in theatre? This is a simple case of the brass giving the orders (or the MI or CIA) to the junior enlisted and cutting them loose when it goes bad. There is no way in the world that a no rank PFC sitting in a military prison is going to refuse an order to put a leash on "haji".

[noamnety]

45. I've always been stationed stateside.

But there obviously IS a "way in the world" that a no rank PFC would refuse an order to behave like that. The reason that the abuses came to light was that there were no name soldiers who reported it. The Taguba report claims there were many in the unit who refused to follow the orders.

Some people had integrity, some didn't. It's not a case of all the troops in the unit going along with the atrocities.

[Cha]

9. It's an extreme example of how

immature some of these kids are that are asked to go and kill for that murderous snout bush.

[ConcernedCanuk]

10. Sorry Lynndie - I don't buy it

.
.
.

looks like ur enjoying urself there

sicko . . .

[VegasWolf]

12. She's "Got that lovin' feeling!" nt

[tainowarrior]

28. LOL

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

"whooooaaa...that lo-ving feelin....she's got that LOOOOVING feeling, and it's gone, gone gone....I need to abuse someone AGAAAIINNNNN>..

Let's keep it going folks....HAHAHAHA>..

[Voltaire99]

41. Brilliant, Vegaswolf. :-)

[ECH1969]

13. And, the US soldiers that raped detainees did it for love too

[skooooo]

15. Absolutely no self-esteem...

[cliss]

16. What a sad excuse of a human being

If that's love, who needs it!

[CdnObserver]

19. Sounds like she was prepped by Rove himself! nt

[BiggJawn]

21. They left out one small detail...

" who added that Graner was her superior officer, was 14 years older than England and had worked as a prison guard."

AND the FATHER of her CHILD, too....

[ConcernedCanuk]

23. Sorry - still no excuse to treat another fellow human being that way

.
.
.

A gun to my head would not allow me to do that

and if that's the kind of personnel the USA has in well over 100 countries in the world . . . .

God help us all

[BiggJawn]

24. I wasn't making excuses for her.

Isn't that why Bonnie Parker went with Clyde Barrow?

"LOVE"?

[nolabels]

38. Chimpy is in direct contact with God, that's why it was okay to...........

....take out Saddam, cause he MIGHT of wanted to hurt Poppy (so it's said)


Like putting fellow humans aside, is this anyway to manage an empire :shrug:

Bush, the worst catastrophe the world has ever known

[IA_Seth]

And the prosecutions starts...."whats love got to do...got to do with it?"

[IA_Seth]

40. One post is plenty, thanks...

self-delete.

[ShockediSay]

22. Ignorant dupes figure large in this day and age.

Bush got himself elected (sort of) twice!

[Kailassa]

26. Leash up the Really responsible.

The less money and education a person has, the more likely they are to join the military, and the less likely they are going to be to know how to stand up for their own rights or question their bosses' orders. I don't give a damn about the guilt or innocence of one little cog caught in the machine, it's the apparent intentions of the machine to indoctrinate the cogs and bring out the worst of them that is the real problem.

You see how "loyalty" is pulled throughout America to discourage people from speaking out or going against the mainstream, how much harder would it be to go against the pressure of loyalty to your team for a young American soldier in Al Graib?

For those knocking the "love" excuse, try reading up on the processes involved in falling in love. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/
To some extent, falling in love is a mental illness, and we are all familiar with stories of what it has driven people to do. I have a few of my own that I would hate to see revealed here.

[tainowarrior]

27. I love you...so I abuse people?

What type of a sadist is this lady?

Gotta love heartland-America types...

People talk so much about ghetto blacks, but, at least we're not taking abuse pictures in Iraq.

No offense to good people on this board, but I'm very frustrated with the quality level of regular Americans. I'm frustrated by the incredibly idiocy, apathy, and backwardness that I see in many of them.

[noonwitch]

29. I kind of believe her, not in a way that absolves her from responsibility

But human behavior does change in 1. regimented group settings, like the military. Sometimes this leads to good behavior, sometimes bad.

and
2. dysfunctional sexual relationships, especially if one party is borderline personality disorder, which she probably is.

[UTUSN]

30. Dang! The Gestapo MISSED That One! n/t

[Solly Mack]

31. No

Just NO

well, ok

she really needs to pick a defense and stick with it

[KansDem]

32. Well, as they say, "All's fair in love and war."

Put the two together and you've got dynamite!

[0007]

33. What a guy to love, 'eh?

My man, and I love him so!!

[spanone]

34. Yea, I saw a lotta love in those photos. Maybe the army should test IQ's.

[Massachusetts]

35. "Maybe the army should test IQ's."

Thats the IQ the army is looking for.

[Laughing Mirror]

39. England's Lawyer Says Army Is to Blame

By T.R. Reid
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 22, 2005; Page A02

FORT HOOD, Tex., Sept. 21 -- Army Pfc. Lynndie R. England, who appeared in iconic photos from the Abu Ghraib prison that shocked the world, is a "compliant personality" who abused Iraqi prisoners because military superiors told her to, her defense lawyer told a military jury Wednesday.

In his opening statement to the all-male jury of five officers, England's lawyer, Capt. Jonathan Crisp, sought to shift the blame for the Abu Ghraib abuses from the young reservist of Fort Ashby, W.Va., to the Army. Crisp noted that the service recruited England despite her lifelong struggle with mental and learning disorders, and assigned her to one of the world's most dangerous prisons even though she lacked training in police work or corrections.

England has been charged with seven counts of conspiracy and mistreatment of prisoners; she faces 11 years in prison. Last spring, she pleaded guilty to a similar set of charges. But in a dramatic move, the judge, Army Col. James L. Pohl, threw the plea out after testimony suggested that England was following higher-ranking soldiers' orders. This time, England has pleaded not guilty.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/21/AR2005092102183.html

[redqueen]

42. I want the higher ups punished as well... not just those at the bottom.

They can't be allowed to get away with this.

[Voltaire99]

43. Harlequin Romance logic for a Tom Clancy culture.

Ah, Western Culture. So superior, so much more advanced than the dark corners of the planet.

So good with leashes.

[Busshianic]

50. I believe it, stuff like that will mess with your mind

[Massachusetts]

52. "England says love prompted abuse photos"

Now that is truly Muskrat love...you go girl (sarcasm)

[Darth_Kitten]

53. I don't need me no feminism, I got a MAN!!!!

Oh, save the world from needy, stupid right-wing women. :eyes: :mad:

EVERYTHING is about pleasing a man. Honestly. :puke: :sarcasm: