US forced to import bullets, troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed

[dooner]

US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed

The Independent (UK)
Andrew Buncombe in Washington, 25 September 2005


US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

<snip>

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

<snip>

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article314944.ece

[Lilyhoney]

1. unfuckingbelieveable! nt

[happyslug]

2. Actually it is believable

I read a study that basically said these were the number of Rounds fired to kill or Wound one enemy solider:

Civil War: 999
WWII: 17,000
Vietnam: 55,000

Thus from 1865 to 1945 we used 17 times the bullets to kill someone.
From 1945 to Vietnam is only tripled. Given the increase in firepower used (and can be carried by trucks) 250,000 per enemy is only a five time increase since Vietnam.

[Delphinus]

16. I had no idea!

What is the reasoning behind this? Why does it take so many rounds to kill one person?

[Centered]

34. guns fire faster... and at higher capacity

you have weapons you don't need to "aim" anymore... just shower the target area with a wall of lead (so to speak)

To aim is to expose yourself. So if someone provides covering fire... the target hides... and someone else can aim.

There is always fear or anxiety to fire without knowing if you hit something or not.

There could also be an intimidation factor.


The entire purpose of a military is to unleash hell... which is why no one should ever with to use a military. No one wants peace more than a soldier.

[happyslug]

36. Various reasons, training and tactics mostly

The chief source of excess rounds is that since WWI the US has adopted the tactic of "Fire and Movement". Basically you fire till you have fire superiority over the enemy which forces him to stay under cover and NOT operate his weapon than you maneuver given no one is now shooting at you (This is a very simplified explanation of the Doctrine, people do move as the other side is still firing but I wrote the above to give you an idea of the doctrine). This came about from realizing that if you charge a machine gun a lot of people will get killed, but if that machine gunner can NOT operate his gun given your volume of fire you can maneuver.

This doctrine was further enhanced by the need for the US to minimize US troops losses (Especially became important during Vietnam where General Westmoreland thought that he could end the opposition to the war in Vietnam if he only reduced the losses to the same losses in the US do to Auto accidents (and I believe the Media wa involved with that plan in the 1960s for every holiday weekend during the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s the News Media would release the people killed on the holiday weekends, stopped in the 1990s when do to better design cars, highways the losses dropped drastically from highs of the 1960s).

Thus the Pentagon adopted a policy of massive firepower, not only to get the ability ot maneuver but to eliminate any possibility of hostile action. That required a lot of bullets and bombs. One example of this is the introduction of the "GunShip" with three gatling guns EACH capable of firing 6000 rounds per minute. In Vietnam their used such gunships just to kill one sniper (and somers cases into hillsides where a sniper MIGHT be). Helicopter gunships had similar weaponry (Through rarely Gatling's for their used up to much ammo for the Helicopter to carry). Thus you had massive use of firepower to defeat the enemy, firepower that has only increased from Vietnam till today

[LiberalFighter]

41. Possible reasons

More National Guard units deployed in Iraq vs Regular Military

They consider the enemy to be terrorists instead of soldiers

More terrorists than soldiers

Terrorists are more difficult to identify so they shoot at everything

The rounds shot are actually practice rounds by the NG units

[Voltaire99]

3. Keystone Kops

Of course, they do manage to kill a lot of innocent Iraqis.

Somebody is being shot. Somebody is being murdered.

[saigon68]

14. "They are only Rag-Heads" shouted the AWOL CHIMPANZEE

The Chimp's pro-life values extend only to christians.

[Benhurst]

15. No! No! No! You don't get it. Anyone shot is

a "terrist." Only the guilty stop bullets.

[1932]

28. Not at all. This is how defense companies get rich. This is not accidental

or inadvertant or a sign of bad aim or anything like that.

[raysr]

40. Why doesn't Ted

Nugent volunteer to go over and fight? He's a self-proclaimed "crack shot"? Or was that "crack pot"? Anyway he could save some ammo with that "trick" shootin'.

[NYC]

4. More outsourcing.

How wise is it to rely on a foreign country to manufacture your weapons of war?

It isn't. The smart thing to do would be spend the money to increase production here -- but that would provide jobs for Americans.

[aquart]

6. We can't.

Under Reagan, we exported our entire tool and die industry overseas. Also our steel industry. We can't make the machines and tools we need to build factories to make anything. We shipped it all offshore. You can guess where by noticing where prosperity is these days.

[NYC]

8. You're right. Just look for the prosperity,

and you'll know where the jobs went.

Why did they do this to us? I know. Personal profit.

[DBoon]

42. heavy industry was highly unionized before Reagan destroyed it

Destroying organized labor by exporting their jobs was part of the plan for destroying the base of the Democratic party. This involved overvaluing the dollar during most of the 1980's so we were flooded with cheap imported goods.

[NYC]

53. And those cheap imported goods are indeed cheap.

A friend of mine bought a sheet at Macy's on sale for $25. When she went to put it on the bed, she thought it was defective because of an unfinished edge. I told her to check the label. The fabric was made in Pakistan.

I'm sure that saved the company a bundle, but the sheet is inferior in quality. So, my friend returned the sheet to Macy's, someone in the U.S. doesn't have a job, and as she said, everything you touch has something wrong with it.

So, overlooking the outsourcing of jobs (which I can't), we pay cheap prices, and we get really cheap stuff.

[Solo_in_MD]

21. Its not some much out sourcing as optimization

Most (if not all) the domestic military small arms ammo is made at a GOCO facility in Missouri (Lake City Army Ammunition Plant AKA LC or LCAAP. . TO keep costs down (and save taxpayer money) it has been optimized for a certain rate of production. That includes labor, machinery, square footage etc. There is not a lot of surge capacity.

Military ammunition does have different powder and other components than civilian stuff. It also has a requirement for a pedigree (traceability including chain of custody) than civilian rounds do not.

As for the rounds/kill. I would like to see how the number was calculated. Sounds like they are including training rounds etc to me (national expenditure per kill vice combat rounds expended per kill)

[OzarkDem]

26. Thanks for the information

but the US still needs to expand its capacity to produce ammunition and arms here in the US.

In a crisis, we need to be able to produce our own materials for defense as well as medical supplies (including drugs, medicines, etc.). Its sheer folly to outsource production of such crucial items.

[NYC]

55. How the number is calculated.

They must be including everything under the sun. You can't miss 249,999 times.

[area51]

22. "More outsourcing."

Exactly. The fscking idiot, short-sighted republinazis think offshoring our manufacturing, engineering, I.T., accounting, clothing, etc. jobs is A Good Thing™. Their policy is coming back to bite them, but they're too fscking stupid to learn.

[vogonjiltz]

5. I bet using Israeli bullets really get us more brownie...

...points with the locals.

[ngGale]

7. What will we do when the US gets "sanctioned?"

Damn CEO people trying to run a military like a business.:sarcasm:

My son the gun buff says, it doesn't matter how many guns American's buy IF and WHEN you can't buy ammo! Kind of a duh, moment.:blush:

[Conservativesux]

9. There will always be ammo, just like there are always guns..

one goes hand in hand with the other.

[Meeker Morgan]

10. How much of that is for target practise? n/t

[rucky]

11. It's just like a real video game!

Where do I sign up?

[radwriter0555]

12. Hey, if those iraqis are so FREE, what are they REBELLING AGAINST???

Hellooooooo freepers?

[awoke_in_2003]

13. What about...

the environmental impact of all that lead? If use has more than doubled, assume 0.9 billion round for Iraq. About 30 bullets in a pound (don't count the shell, they are copper or aluminum). About 13.5 million tons of lead. Wow. Take lead, depleted uranium, and add the water table. We will kill them all one way or another.

[Toots]

17. When I was in Vietnam we were required to expend our Ammo

every mission. They felt if we came back with ammo we had not done our job correctly. We shot at anything that moved, monkeys, elephants, water buffalo, anything just so we could shoot at something. It was a requirement......Each doorgunner had 2500 rounds and the minis had four thousand rounds each and each rocket pod had fourteen rockets with a seventeen pound warhead. Plus each doorgunner had grenades hanging in the door to be dropped like bombs at strategic times. Every mission we were required to expend even cold missions. when the mission was a cold insertion we would visit a site on the way back to the base to "rattle a few cages" Wars are expensive and the majority is waste.

[1932]

30. Wars are money makers for defense companies, and this is how they did it.

Consume and spend.

Imagine if they gave the money they spent on amunition to the soldiers instead or spent it on funding VA hospitals?

[Toots]

31. At that time almost forty years ago I was told bullets were $.90 a round

That was during the days of $700 hammers and $5000 toilet seats so I believed it.

[1932]

32. No wonder war parties get so much in political donations.

[Cocoa]

18. insanity

all that metal and production capacity could be used to benefit people, it's being wasted for NOTHING.

[Gregorian]

33. Yes. And these are being made for human beings.

Each bullet is numbered for a person. And WE are paying for it. For every 8 hours we work, 2 of those go for this shit.

And it's going backwards at double speed, since every dollar is spent going in the wrong direction. Just think of a national rail system. Or dental research. Or new systems for educating the kids. Or just about anything.

War and gas. One makes us comfy, and the other keeps us in charge. Sick.

[leesa]

19. "evil-doers"???these people are beyond mentally ill!

[reprobate]

38. Not "evil-doers". The freeps are referring to Evil DUers. Thats us.

[manic expression]

20. How many bullets are used per civilian?

or are they included in the "rebels" category?

[VegasWolf]

23. The new bullets say "Made By Halliburton." nt

[Bigmack]

24. Hold 'em and squeeze 'em....

Dark humor: My old Gunnery Sergeant would be fuming over this story. He would have screamed at us to "hold 'em and squeeze 'em... one shot = one kill.."

Serious point: If US troops are using this much ammunition, it means they are using the "spray and pray" method of shooting. That is, when someone fires at you, open up with everything you've got, in every direction. The video coming out of Iraq shows a shitload of 50 cal and other automatic weapons.

Perhaps that's why the US has killed so many innocent Iraqis.

[Gregorian]

25. We can't make ammunitions fast enough. What I've always said. Profit!

These gun and bomb companies are drinking champagne. Rolling in cash.

I might add that the petroleum industry is doing the same.



America is about guns and gas. Now people are starting to wake up.




All while the other guy suffers.

[dooner]

27. How they got the number...

from the story...

=========
Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005.

using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

[dooner]

29. About outsourcing bullets

more from the story
============

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

[UpInArms]

35. I wonder how many bullets it takes to kill al-Zarqawi - the thrice

dead one-legged self-exposing face-covered disappearing reappearing bogeyman?

[Up2Late]

37. This isn't really about "Rate of Fire," this is about political favors

We only have one or two ammunition (bullet) manufacturers in this country now, or at least only one or two that the federal government gets it's amo from, most likely to keep the price up for the big supporters of the GOP.

And hey, it's better that what the British troops had, they were only issued 5 rounds each when they invaded Iraq in 2003.

[struggle4progress]

39. It's d@mn hard to shoot 250,000 rounds without hitting somebody

so we must be hurting a lot of innocent folk

[thecodewarrior]

43. US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every re

http://thecodewarrior.com/index.php?blog=5&p=121&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1#more121

How can anyone afford a war at 250k bullets per kill?

[benburch]

44. At the same time we kill MANY civilians.

Sad.

[thecodewarrior]

46. Thats 1 million bullets per 4 insurgents

No wonder this bullshit war cost so much.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

49. bad aim. that's the problem

actually, I wonder how many have been stolen and resold? there is so much of that going on in Iraq.

[grytpype]

45. Nice that we're buying bullets from Israel.

I'm sure Karen Hughes has a really brilliant way to "explain" that to the Arab world, you know, so they don't get the wrong impression.

[Chi-Town Exile]

50. Like they don't have the wrong impression from us being in Iraq?

The Madrases have taught them for decades that the US/Israel are the same entity so what are you afraid of?

[SillyGoose]

47. Doesn't that seem an extraordinarily large amount of bullets for one

kill? A quarter million bullets to kill one person?

Am I missing something here?

[krkaufman]

48. 'Cause their including "collateral" usage n/t

[dooner]

51. Put it on our big US credit card! n/t

[Kenergy]

52. It was 50,000 in Viet Nam...we're making steady progress n/t

[LisaL]

54. My goodness. I don't want to say nothing, but I imagined they would

get training of some kind on how to shoot.

[Theduckno2]

56. I think our opponents are taking this all in.

Everytime a suspected militant is killed with an airstrike and everytime we set about demolishing a town in order to rid it of insurgents, it becomes more clear. They may begin to believe that defeat of the US is possible though attrition, not in body counts but in dollars spent.

The enormity of the burden imposed by the high-tech, high firepower military-industrial complex is an Achilles heel when dealing with a determined but largely amorphous enemy.