Reports of anarchy at Superdome overstated

[Newsjock]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html

By BRIAN THEVENOT and GORDON RUSSELL
Newhouse News Service

NEW ORLEANS -- ... That the nation's frontline emergency-management officials believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the news media and even some of the city's top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent.

The vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees — mass murders, rapes and beatings — have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law-enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is (expletive)," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong — bad things happened. But I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything ... 99 percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities have only confirmed four murders in the entire city in the aftermath of Katrina — making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year.

"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases; they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

more

[Carolab]

1. Yes, indeed. Excellent story in the Mpls. City Pages magazine.

First-hand reports from people who were there. They said the same, and furthermore, they said that the people were going out and getting food and distributing it first to children and elderly and sick people. They even offered it to the cops there, who told them to give it to needier people.

Read it here:

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1294/article13694.asp

[lakeguy]

10. imagine that, first hand reports from people who were actually there

to make a news story. what a novel idea! sounds much better than that "i heard it on the blogs" crap tweety pulled over the weekend.

[Newsjock]

2. Oh, and there's more

Another important point I just found further down in the article:

... Inside the Superdome, where National Guardsmen performed rigorous security checks before allowing anyone inside, only one shooting has been verified — and even that shooting, injuring Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt of the 527th Engineer Battalion, has been widely misreported, said Maj. David Baldwin, who led the team of soldiers who arrested the alleged assailant.

Watt had indeed been attacked inside one of the Dome's locker rooms, where he entered with another soldier. In the darkness, as they walked through about six inches of water, Watt's attacker hit him with a metal rod, a piece of a cot. But the bullet that penetrated Watt's leg came from his own gun — he accidentally shot himself during the commotion. The attacker was sent to jail, Baldwin said.

[Carolab]

3. Yes, I heard this one before. Here's a sample from the article I posted.

This is from one of the cops who stayed:

{snip}

The people randomly shooting at us, and the things that we had to do to people that we caught--that's something I have to deal with, and I will deal with. That's not the story here. The importance needs to be shined on the fact the city was unprepared for a tropical storm, let alone a category 5 hurricane. And the people at the Convention Center were left high and fucking dry. They survived, they pulled together, they sang songs all night. I mean, they would come and ask us: You're looking tired, are you feeling okay? Those were the people I swore to protect. Five times we were told to leave: Leave 'em. Leave 'em. Leave 'em. When the oil storage facility in the Ninth Ward blew up, thought they were blowing the levee and they were going to flood everybody, and they thought that's why there were no police around there. I said, well, look, if they're doing that, they're doing it to us too. We're here with y'all, regardless.

They were afraid given what the city did to the community in the '60s when the hurricane hit and they blew the levee and flooded them and killed them. And no information and no security presence and no food and water. They'd been lied to by everybody except us. I want somebody to find out who said "Go to the Convention Center, there'll be food and water there," and I want that person held accountable for the fact there was no food and water or security presence there. I want them to be held liable for every death and injury there. I want someone to find out why the city didn't get their hands on 10 tankers full of gasoline and park them somewhere outside the city and drive them in. I want to know why a city that floods if it rains for more than five minutes doesn't have high-water vehicles. I want to know why they didn't use the RTA buses to get some of these evacuees out. Those are the people I swore to protect.

[rodeodance]

23. kick

[Catherine Vincent]

4. I've always thought this.

[NorthernSpy]

5. I'm waiting for everyone who believed and spread that rubbish...

... to step forward and apologize to the vulnerable people s/he chose to slander in their hour of dire need. At the very moment when the victims of the flood needed all the solidarity they could get, there were those who attacked them. This sorry episode has showed us that some people have no ethics, no goddamn sense, and don't know when to shut the fuck up.

And I also want to thank everyone here who kept track of the rumors, contacted media, and generally tried to find out the facts. You are people of good sense and good will. No matter how bad that situation was, it would have been even worse without you. Bless you!


Now, let's set about making sure that every "news" outlet that reported these rumors as though they were facts comes across with the necessary retractions.

[Catherine Vincent]

6. The problem is the evacuees at the Superdome and the Convention Center

was saying this themsleves. I saw two ladies being interviewed while in their misery say that babies were being raped. I didn't really believe it though because I always figured they were repeating what maybe one person said and it spread like wildfire.

[NorthernSpy]

8. it should have been obvious that some of those trapped in the city...

... were affected by mass hysteria: the stories were ultra-shocking, but the few details offered continually changed, and there was no observable evidence to support any of the claims. All of this fit the classic pattern of mass hysteria. Any journalist who failed to recognize this is just too fucking stupid to continue in a position of any responsibility whatsoever.

Bottom line: the reporters had no goddamn right to report damaging hearsay as fact.

Me, I plan to REMEMBER who said what, and who printed what. Some people truly deserve to lose their careers over this. There needs to be a reckoning. And Lord willing, there will be.

[1932]

49. Another thing: reporters at the superdome and convention center

were saying that people were acting with dignity and community spirit in the most trying of circumstances. It was reporters who weren't at those sites (and whose location and sources weren't stated) who were spreading the rumors.

[pitohui]

54. charmaine neville said she herself was raped

why would she invent this

why would the other women invent this

i guess it's the same old story, women just invent these rape stories, i don't think so

times-picayune was first in line to print these stories, THEY published the story of a freezer full of 30 bodies at the convention center, they can't come back now & say, oops, we just made it up

come on

what's the deal here

i smell history being re-written right in front of us

[Judi Lynn]

58. Have you read anywhere that the men she mentioned were black?

Or are you just assuming this? Does her claim of "we" actually mean she PERSONALLY was raped? Does she say this? Do you have a source you could link?

I found this quick reference:

There were alligators eating people, babies floating in the water, hundreds of bodies of dead people..
"We understood why the police couldn't help us but we didn't understant why the National Guard wouldn't stop and pick us up from the roof...

"Some men came and they were raping our women...

If they hadn't left us out there like animals this wouldn't have happened... there are still thousands of people trapped down there downtown.. old people, young people, babies, pregnant women, nobody's helping them...
(snip)

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/07/katrina_survivor_fir.html

Does she indicate she has first person knowledge of the rapes?

[LostinVA]

60. Actually, Mis.Neville has said in interviews she was raped

From what I remember, it wasn't in the Superdome, it was at a school, and a man held a knife to her throat. I have no idea what color the man was -- it wasn't mentioned.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Do you have a link to that claim?

I find it so hard to grasp that while others are trying to save their lives, and the lives of their loved ones, there are also mysterious men moving through the night hell-bent on porking people.

As anyone knows, it's possible to say any damned thing, and that will NEVER stand as proof. The thing for her to do would have been to make a formal complaint with the police department.

Since she is a well-known entertainer, they would undoubtedly have given her case priority.

[pitohui]

68. yes we have links

it is offensive to me that we have to keep supplying the same links

it is offensive to me that it is always assumed it is the women who lie

five second's research on google pulls up the story, you didn't even try before you accused

Referring to getting raped, Neville said, "What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001057076

look, i understand the reason for the whitewash, all this violence is not good publicity, but reality is what it is, too many ppl from nat'l guardmen to victims themselves witnessed what happened

it is a disgrace that history is being rewritten like this, there is a small but violent gang element that has been preying on new orleans for yrs, pretending it doesn't exist is an insult to the victims

[NorthernSpy]

80. some interesting observations re Ms. Neville's account...

... are at this link.

I'm still withholding judgement on this particular matter, but there do seem to be some things about Neville's story that really need explaining.

[Judi Lynn]

85. A very telling small detail mentioned at the link:

After commandeering a boat and rescuing people, a bus, also rescuing people, being swallowed up by the storm endlessly, she emerged to tell her story completely intact, without ever having chipped the nailpolish on her long fingernails which also were unbroken.

It can't be that easy to be both a superheroine, and still that pulled together, appearing none the worse for wear.

[NorthernSpy]

91. even sculptured acrylics won't stand up to that kind of abuse...

I don't know whether her long nails are natural or not. But I do know that the material used for nail enhancements -- ethyl methacrylate -- was chosen precisely because it would break when seriously stressed. This is to protect against the risk of having the natural nail torn right off the nailbed by an amount of force that would fail to break a too-strong fake nail.

And as for keeping polish on for any length of time when you're fighting your way out of a disaster zone, forget it!

I agree. That's the sort of detail that really makes you go hmmmmm...

[gorekerrydreamticket]

167. I hadn't heard about the alligators eating the dead bodies...

That would explain why they haven't found as many bodies as they expected to in NO.

[shanti]

76. i heard it also

it was a video file

[Judi Lynn]

83. I saw a video file in which she did NOT say she herself was raped,

nor did it say she had first hand information that someone else was raped.

Jayne Mansfield, a sexy second rate actress in the 1950's or 1960's claimed she and her husband, body builder Mickey Hargatay had been shipwrecked and stranded on a small rock in the ocean, too.

Frank Sinatra's son claimed he had been kidnapped.

Celebrities who intend to be more well known have resorted to availing themselves of opporunities to advance their recognition.

It happens. You're obligated to engage your brain and think things over, not swallow them whole. Prejudice can only get you so far. It's not good enough for the long run. It does affect your own credibility.

[pitohui]

67. she said she was raped, check baton rouge advocate

i realize it's the done thing to assume women make it up, but i don't believe she did make it up, she has no reason to invent this

she said she was herself raped & she witnessed other women being raped at the convention center

the link was posted here multiple times or you could try google

she is black if it matters

link:

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/090405/new_soul001.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

73. I know she's black.

I heard her comments to a priest, and she did not say she herself was raped, she used the always popular "we," which can be very flexible, and hard to pin down.

She did NOT say she witnessed a rape of others in the comments I heard.

[pitohui]

78. read the links

she sez she was raped

if you ask for links & then refuse to read them, what can we do

there is always an element that wants to silence rape victims, but i don't see the need for DU to play along

[Judi Lynn]

89. Sorry, I only just saw your link. Just read your story.

I happen to know that if I had witnessed someone being raped, as in "old women, girls, and boys," I would have gone for help!

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I was unfortunately assaulted, myself, and I can damned well tell you the LAST thing in the world I'd have to say about the event would be similar to:

"What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans."

You don't know what real rage is, apparently, if you can yammer so emptily about it. One thing a person DOESN'T do is prattle on about it, using lines that sound as stupid as something a completely retarded person would use trying to scribble a cheap novel.

[Kailassa]

105. Nothing?

Judi, the way in which you have pushed your point of view has made me want to disagree with you, but what you said here is exactly what I thought when I read these words.

"What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans."

This really smells of empty theatricism. Rape is an intense assault on a person's inner self, and can leave the victim pregnant and infected with all sorts of nasty things. There is no way I could blithely speak about being raped with such pride.

Afterwards there are the practicalities of needing medical help and reporting it to the police. I know most rapes are not reported, but leaving one unreported so that the police have no hope of preventing the attacker raping again is nothing to be proud of. And there's the washing, and washing, still believing you can smell the attacker's stink on you even after you've scrubbed yourself raw. Not being able to wash after a rape would almost drive you crazy.

So I hope she was not raped; I hope no-one was.

[stickdog]

124. Again, how do the horrific experiences of a single woman

change the entire dynamic of this story?

Yes, it's hard for anyone to admit rape. Yes, we should never automatically question anyone who has the courage to do so. However, that doesn't change the fact that there is still no EVIDENCE for the widespread rumors -- universally reported in the corporate media and accepted by many even here as unquestionable FACT without a shred of journalistic confirmation -- that Katrina's poorest victims devolved into a state of rampant violence in the absence of thousands of armed authorities to keep them in line.

If you can't see why buying into that line of shit without evidence is counterproductive, then I have to suggest that you may be in the wrong place.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marshall]

186. Charmaine Neville's claim

I think Neville's experience, and the lack of credibility given to her account by many, is very pertinent to the story she related. Women are often not believed because they don't look beat up enough, or they are dressed too provocatively, or they were hysterical, or the man is a fine upstanding citizen, or she let him in her front door, or he bought her dinner, etc.

[stickdog]

189. I meant that her story doesn't change the fact that the media presented

overblown and wholly unconfirmed rumors of rampant and uncontrolled violence as truth and that these reports both hampered sincere rescue efforts and served as an overwhelmingly deceitful ass covering our government's criminal negligence.

As you suggest, questioning the veracity of Neville's claim is problematic and insensitive for a myriad of reasons. My point is that one doesn't have to question the veracity of her claim to criticize widespread but wholly unconfirmed media accounts of rampant violence like bodies piled up against the wall and babies being raped by the dozen.

[marshall]

191. Rates of rape crimes

I do agree with you, and in the long run the number of rapes that happened during the Katrina time might be the same as the number of rapes that happened the week before--when the media was not scrutinizing (or at least purporting to scrutinize) what was happening in New Orleans.
In the long run the media actually invented their own disaster by scaring rescue workers away. Perhaps one kook shot at a helicopter and it was over reported until it seemed like all good samaritans were being shot at.

[Helga Scow Stern]

92. Yes, I saw a taped interview of her with a priest,

where she said she was raped.

[Judi Lynn]

95. Her next interview should be with a policeman, at the police station.

I saw that interview myself. If she has any information which is actual, it would be very helpful to authorities, and not best shown around the internet to add fuel to the hate-driven bigots' spew.

[1932]

75. Nobody said it didn't happen. People did say that it wasn't the sole

story of the flood.

You just read that last story, right? Only four murders in all of New Orleans during the floods.

[stickdog]

113. She supposedly told this story to a Born Again Christian website.

Who is to say that somebody wasn't putting these words into her mouth?

Also, please note that she say she was holding out away from the main congregations. It's in the dark corners of any city where scum is most likely to take advantage of the relatively helpless.

On edit: please note that I realize how difficult it is for the vast majority of women to talk about something so personally horrific as their own experiences with rape. I'm not questioning her own victimization, just whether or not the entire "Lord of the Flies" picture she sketched for her minister is based totally on firsthand observations. I apologize for not being sensitive enough to make this clear in my original post.

[butterfly77]

175. I agree

[raccoon]

161. Right on, Northernspy.

"Some people truly deserve to lose their careers over this. "

I agree. I'm sick of these so-called "journalists" working for the corporate media, who probably aren't up to working for the NATIONAL ENQUIRER, even.

[Carni]

38. I assumed from the beggining the stories were bullshit

OK I could see SOME mayhem and crime occuring esp at the convention center where there was no security whatsoever--but who in the hell is going to be mugging people, raping babies, slitting throats and all this other stuff in the middle of a cat 4 hurricane in a dark, hot, stinking building that is in the process of losing it's roof?

The stories never passed the common sense test IMO

[Tomee450]

107. I couldn't agree more.

I never believed for one moment that there was the widespread acts of violence reported. However, some on this forum were determined to believe that the reports were true.

[Judi Lynn]

12. D.U. was inundated by wave after wave of shrieking lunatics, hell bent

on raging and raving here, discharging bile, hatred, racism, psychotic gibbering and howling about blacks, about men, about black men, about all D.U.'ers who tried to tell them to get ahold of themselves, calling DU'ers apologists, ennablers, idiots, creating second, third, and fourth threads on the same subject in the same forum because they wanted more people to fight with, chasing people around the boards to confront them.

I have NEVER seen posters much such titanic asses of themselves, and all the while the well-balanced elements urged them to THINK!, to try to use their heads, to apply reason, to try to read more, to put a sock in it. Oh, no! Couldn't have that. Had to get right in there and make so much noise here no one had the psychological space to simply communicate with like minds, compare notes, and focus on the problems confronting Americans in New Orleans.

The calmer, more disciplined posters here stood out like beacons amid the bedlam, and I'd surely love to thank them. The ones who were steadfast and patient were such powerful presences they kept things going in our own malestrom here, while the cheapshot artists hurled themselves against them.

It's beautiful seeing their confirmation so soon. We knew it would happen, and it wasn't a moment too soon. Thank you so much for not backing down, for not giving in, for not surrendering, and not letting them get the last word here, and turn this place into New Freepland. You fought the good fight.

NorthernSpy was downright unshakable. Thank you. :woohoo:

[Kagemusha]

25. A lot of people think blacks are incapable of crime too.

And that if they do commit offenses, they are not crimes because the real crime's racism.

I just felt like there was no point arguing at the time about it because this became a matter of faith. I try to be realistic. Treating it all like mass hysteria... well, while certainly that may have existed, it's also possible to swing to the other end of the scale and become apologists. I don't run around trying to disprove the Kosovan massacres or the Kurdish village poison gassings by chalking it up to mass hysteria (like some people unfortunately happen to do in this world).

I will, however, occasionally make a stand on principle and say that dressing every report of a black crime as media hysteria is assuming a lot more than we, the media, and the vast majority of the people who were in the Superdome, have any right to, because our knowledge in this existence we call life, is limited.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorthernSpy]

32. wow: N-baiting!

And that if they do commit offenses, they are not crimes because the real crime's racism.

Yup. N-baiting. Your defense of the spreading of slanderous rumors is -- literally -- an invocation of the Spectre of black criminality, and the supposed softness of the anti-rumor faction's attitude toward the same. That's pretty damn low, and even I'm a little surprised to see it here.

I just felt like there was no point arguing at the time about it because this became a matter of faith.

It's a matter of faith for you, because you can't back anything up with evidence.

I try to be realistic.

Except, of course, for reality part of "realistic".

Treating it all like mass hysteria... well, while certainly that may have existed, it's also possible to swing to the other end of the scale and become apologists. I don't run around trying to disprove the Kosovan massacres or the Kurdish village poison gassings by chalking it up to mass hysteria (like some people unfortunately happen to do in this world).

Where are all the slitted throats?

I will, however, occasionally make a stand on principle and say that dressing every report of a black crime as media hysteria is assuming a lot more than we, the media, and the vast majority of the people who were in the Superdome, have any right to, because our knowledge in this existence we call life, is limited.

What a convenient time to turn agnostic! We aren't debating the knowability of the Divine. We're asking for material evidence of things that allegedly happened in our material universe, right here on our material Earth.

[0007]

34. Your pulling my Yang, 'eh? Or is it my Ying?

[Tomee450]

108. What nonsense.

I can't recall anyone saying that blacks are incapable of committing crimes. Members of all races commit crimes but in the eyes of some people, African Americans are the people MOST LIKELY to be criminals. Because of this prejudice, when a black is accused of a crime he is cut no slack, his accuser is readily believed. IMO, that is what occurred here and elsewhere. Preconceived negative ideas about the black population lead people to accept wild stories of violence perpetuated by the black victims of Katrina without any verification whatsoever.

[stickdog]

125. Yes, blacks should be allowed to rape and murder whites at will as

just reparations for slavery.

That's what all of us liberals think, don't you know.

:sarcasm:

[NorthernSpy]

28. hey -- you also did a great job combating the slanders, Judi Lynn!

:yourock:

[1932]

46. Amen.

[1932]

45. Remeber, Gretna police wouldn't let them cross the brigdge because of lies

they believed.

It is outrageous that these lies were spread by the media and by people on the internet. I would love to see a lawsuit against the people who were the sources of those stories.

[Doris32r]

114. Are you excusing what the Gretna police did? n/t

[1932]

137. I'm saying that the exaggerations & focus of media encouraged Gretna

police to engage in a policy that made life miserable for people.

I'm saying that the people who spread those lies should be ashamed.

I presume the police sincerely believed those stories and that motivated their decision to block the bridge. I think racism also encouraged that decision and I also think the Gretna police have hearts of stone.

I wonder if their racist seige-mentatlity instincts would have kicked in so viciously if not for the bullshit the media spread.

Just by indentifying one of many elements in a causal chain of events doesn't mean I'm forgiving every subsequent bad act or decision.

I think many lessons can be learned from what happened. One is that the medai must be more responsible. Another is that the Gretna police should never have done what they did.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1932]

149. If you're an American, one of the most painful documents at Anne Frank

museum in Amsterdam is the letter from the State Department denying her family asylum.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

168. Isn't Gretna in Jefferson Parish, where the crybaby man ....

on Meet the Press is in charge?

[Judi Lynn]

174. That insult is uncalled for, isn't it? Do you have anything to add?

Obviously you believe Gretna is in Jefferson Parrish, and are simply looking for a way to launch a cheap insult at the man. Very clumsy in execution.

"Crybaby man."





"I'm not crying for me," Gov. Jeb
Bush told a black staffer
Friday. "I'm crying for you ... and
others who have to make the
ultimate sacrifice" to work for me.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

177. not uncalled for...the story he was crying about turned out to be untrue..

but my question is did he put the sheriffs on the bridge to block the poor people's only open escape route from New Orleans?

[Judi Lynn]

178. Instead of making accusations, it would help you spend your time

constructively by finding out first, then posting the link to the article revealing what that man did to keep people from getting to safety.

It has NEVER been mentioned anywhere in the media. If it had been even remotely possible, the subject would have come up when he was on the Meet the Press program yesterday.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

180. well, here's a link to the Air America story...

http://www.airamericaradio.com/node/887

[Judi Lynn]

179. Why don't you do the honest thing, and stop taking cheap pot shots

at this man. If you have something intelligent to say, get on with it.

You may have noticed, your level of conversation isn't duplicated anywhere on this message board. People here are simply either too busy, or too intelligent to stoop to such shabby, awkward, feeble attempts to communicate.

[slaveplanet]

64. You seem like like a resourceful person

Why don't you get ahold of mr "Bigfoot" and tell him he's a liar to his face.
Maybe you can explain to him where you were at ,while he was waiting to be rescued at the CC.

His media contacts are available.

"Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story

(partial transcript)

Q-Are Ok there now Bigfoot?

BF- Oh Yah, the people in Arkansas are awesome.. they are awesome out here.

q- And your family is allright?

BF- yes they're fine now...while we were there they lost their minds a couple of times. I was a..you know just a talking to my girlfriend and she like blanked out... didn't know where she was...didn't even know what her name was...I had to calm her down and the children just crying because they had dead bodies the were crossing over and everything. Just sleeping on the ground because they were tired.

q- Ahh were the dead bodies IN the CC?

BF- IN & OUT

q- People had expired right then and there from lack of food and water!!!

BF- And some people were killed... there's something they didn't say on the news... In the jails , they let loose all the low crime criminals

q- Huh!!!

BF- yeah, bet you didn't know that.

q- No

BF- so...they got caught up in the crowd where they got transfered to the CC and SD also

q- and they you feel were in substantial part, contributors to the violence?

BF- OH YEAH, because they ran into their friends...I overheard a couple of them talking...say "Man I thought you was in jail- Yeah man they let us out" and then they had got into a little group.
Well in the beginning everybody was fine. Everybody was working together, you know feeding everybody and giving out the water. Second day, same thing everybody was fine... you know we broke into stores and stuff like that to feed the elderly and the children and stuff. The third day...It got rough. They started selling the food then.

q- who?

BF- the younger kids... like from the 15-25 year olds. Like they had their own little gang

q- Sounds like a little mafia thing?

BF- Yeah close to it, you know...you want some good food you've got to buy it.

q- Ohh

BF- and they'll cook it for you and get it to you and stuff

q- I see

q- at this point 3 days into it, still no police, no help no nothing?

BF- No, No police... that's the funny part, this is another part... they had police but they were like... out of contact with each other...they were on walkie talkies.. so and the NOLA police they didn't have a clue as to what was going on because no-one was telling them anything either

q- No command and control...nothing!

BF- No, no control... But they had police officers watching us the WHOLE time we were there

q- But you didn't know it?

BF- we didn't know it until that...that Friday...we found out

q- where were these police officers?

BF- they were inside a hotel, right across the street from the CC

q- and they were just observing from over there?

BF- Observing and they had orders not to interfere

q-huh!!!!

BF- Yeah they had machine guns and everything, we had snipers on the interstate that overlooked the CC also.
We always saw them because they'd popped up every now and then. we saw their heads.

q- you were, you were PRISONERS!!!!

BF- Yeah... we couldn't leave...people would try to walk across the bridge to go across the river... they turned them around. They said you cannot leave, Nobody could come into town and pick us up.

q- and there was not one delivery of food, not one medical team, nothing that came to the CC.

BF- Not until Wednesday, and they didn't come in, they dropped it off the interstate overpass. We had to catch the food.

q- dropped it off How?

BF-MRE's and water, they dropped the cases off the interstate

q- on helicopter or truck?

BF- A truck, and it wasn't military or police either it was regular guys ...I don't know where they come from...they had plain clothes the would drop it off the interstate and then everybody would just grab what they could... and the water they dropped the water but half of that exploded... because once it hit the ground it went everywhere.

q- I understand

q- Uhm... how many dead people were there?...around the CC?
Just take a guess...

BF-we had like 8 in the freezer...cause when we saw some people were dead we put em in the freezer so they wouldn't start stinking. 8 inthe freezer, they had like 2 in the street that I knew of...and they had a few on the second and third floor, I don't know exactly how many they had, some of them were kids.

q- Any of em murdered?

BF-YES

BF- Most of the kids had been murdered...They were like RAPED and then their necks SLASHED...Slashed their throat

q- Who...who was doing the murdering? This other gang??

BF-It was a...we found him at the end... It was ONE guy...what he was doing was he...as a child would have to go to the bathroom and the mom was like sleeping or something like that..or not...you know talking to somebody. He told them I'll take you to the restroom then went second floor...we didn't see em again

q- and these were young boys?young girls?

BF- Yeah he was about like twenty... twenty eight years old... the one that was doing it... the kids were 3, 4, 5 ...8.

q- He was killing little kids????

BF- YES ...RAPING THEN KILLING THEM

q- Did anybody, did anybody catch this guy?

BF- We caught him at the end, we caught him Friday

q- and what did you do with him?

BF-We didn't have no jail...so you know... an eye for an eye

q- I think alot of people would support that

BF- Ya, you know ....what goes around comes around man...

q- I hear ya

BF- Like I said we had Police officers watching us the whole time.. come Thursday, people got tired , they started breaking in cars and picking their families up and trying to drive them out of town... and you know we broke in Budget(sp?) , we broke in all kind of buildings... but they had a rich area around the CC.. where rich people stay at... once they started migrating over there hittin those cars...

q- Um huh

BF- eight police cars came out of nowhere!

q- OH...OK

BF-And that when they all started coming around the CC pulling their guns out ...ONE POLICE OFFICER GOT SHOT

q- By whom?

BF- By a pedestrian(?) trying to get the hell out of there... and they took him away, and they took all the cars away that the people had hotwired... and then they all disappeared.
Just because we went in that area... thats the only time they came out, they never talked to us or anything...They would roll by... with their guns drawn, but they would not talk to you.

q- and these were Black officers and white officers?

BF- Black officers and white officers YES

q- Ok .. standby... a fascinating look at horror that is almost unimaginable
we will continue with "Bigfoot" in a couple minutes.

[Judi Lynn]

66. You wrote you transcribed this information from a tape you have

in a thread which was locked.

He claims that children would disappear into bathrooms, never to be seen again.

I'm going to pass on this windy one. He was having a jest, it would seem, knowing idiots are wild to believe anything which puts people they don't like in a bad light.

[slaveplanet]

69. Like I said

he can be contacted...he is not hiding

you can claim he's having a jest...but for what end?

were all those people in the front of the CC on the nightly news
saying " there's dead bodies in there" having a jest too?

[stickdog]

127. This is EXACTLY the type of story that would be expected.

This guy tells a semi-believable (but still almost certainly at least exaggerated) story about a SINGLE psychopath taking advantage of a situation and a shocked greater community that caught and executed him in a justifiable self-policing act.

That is definitely NOT the picture of rampant random violence that the media was painting.

[slaveplanet]

129. I wholeheartedly agree

That is definitely NOT the picture of rampant random violence that the media was painting.

and i think interested parties should search this guy out and pin him down on some of the details.

ei what did the kids look like?
was he directly involved in moving these kids to the freezer?

things like that.


I'm aware there was a gross amount of spin in many of the early reports.

But in my view < I saw ... desperate people , hungry people, scared people.....my people

and when they're in tears, frightened and claiming their are dead bodies in there.....I for one refuse to believe that it is ALL media spin or they're just out for jollies....

[stickdog]

134. Sure they were desperate and sure there was some chaos and crime.

But it's just human nature to sensationalize events in such a situation.

That doesn't excuse the fact that the corporate media almost invariably reported unconfirmed rumors as fact and a number of extremely vocal posters here castigated anyone who suggested waiting for confirmation before jumping on the "blame the victims" bandwagon.

[sandnsea]

140. He's a LIAR, I'd say it to his face

First of all, there's several articles on "low crime" criminals who have been stuck in nightmares of their own. 6-7,000 prisoners in the New Orleans area jail and NONE were let out. That, in itself, is pure insanity. More than double what a jail population of a city that size ought to have.

Second, he says they walked over bodies, but later on says there were 8 in the freezer and 2 in the street. So just exactly where were all these bodies they had to walk over???

There have been NO bodies of raped and murdered children found, so what did they do with them? If they were so careful about taking care of the dead bodies and all.

I don't care who he is or who he thinks he is, he's full of shit. And sounds like he was one of the looters that the media was in hysterics about.

[hedgehog]

141. Today on Diane Rehm a caller claimed that criminals were

driven over from the jails and released into the Super Dome! What's worse, no one in the studio challenged the caller. I found the claim interesting because I remember seeing video of a group of prisoners in shackles and orange jump suits sitting in the sun with no shelter on an overpass. They'd been moved there after the hurricane when the flood hit the jail.

[slaveplanet]

158. you have the right to your

opinion, but some of his claims are corroborated.

First of all, there's several articles on "low crime" criminals who have been stuck in nightmares of their own. 6-7,000 prisoners in the New Orleans area jail and NONE were let out. That, in itself, is pure insanity. More than double what a jail population of a city that size ought to have.

Uhm... I have video of the prisoners on the bridge...I suppose that makes me a liar in your eyes. Due to the FACT the police had no communications and were pinned down the same as the evacuees, I won't accept any evidence short of video/pics of the prisoners being loaded on buses
and driven out of NOLA before Friday to prove they were shipped separate. I haven't seen the reports you refer too, but I don't believe your claim that NONE were let out. I have seen the Common dreams story where police admit: “At best, the inmates were left to fend for themselves,” said Carey. “At worst, some may have died.”  and that 517 inmates were unaccounted for.
so I'll rely on Mr bigfoots word at this time....

Second, he says they walked over bodies, but later on says there were 8 in the freezer and 2 in the street. So just exactly where were all these bodies they had to walk over???

he never says they have to walk over Bodies. There is a part where he said they had to cross over bodies. Which is not surprising due to the fact it was pitch black inside and many were injured and dehydrated in there.

and as for the 8 in the freezer and 2 outside.
let just take a look at this report here shall we: And overnight, I was told, 10 people had died.

I was skeptical of the claim and a man took me to a massive refrigerator in the center's kitchen.

Eight bodies were inside, though there was no power to keep the refrigerator on. I found the other two corpses around the back, on a loading dock.

The body of an elderly woman sat in a wheelchair covered with a red-and-blue checkered cloth. Her feet stuck out and had blood on them. Next to her was a woman wrapped in a white sheet.

HMMM...score that point in mr Bigfoots column

But who's report is that? some delusional evacuee? Some spoon-fed MSM hack?.....hardly.
Those are the words of TAMER EL-GHOBASHY

and just how did Tamer come by that opinion?

against heavy warnings and unarmed....he walked there.

So now we have a journalist inside the CC while the shit is on the fan,
read on-I heard there was a riot under way at the convention center and headed over there.

As we walked past the Windsor Court hotel, we were stopped by a female state trooper. "Y'all came over here without guns? Don't go there. Don't go there unless you have a machine gun around your neck. We pulled our troops out because the civilians have taken over. We don't have the manpower to deal with them," she said.

But Mike and I decided to press on. This is a story the world needs to hear.

We passed a family next - three women and two men - frying chicken on a street corner. One of the men, wearing a 9-inch knife on his belt, wished us luck.

"Y'all better be strapped," he said as we walked by - strapped being slang for armed. The scene at the convention center was wild; the fury palpable. The people looked far more desperate and far more desolate than those at the Superdome.

Hmmm so he walked through that crowd and the people wanted their story told and they wanted to show them the bodies....how come we never saw that on TV?

There have been NO bodies of raped and murdered children found, so what did they do with them? If they were so careful about taking care of the dead bodies and all.

well that is the $64,000 question now isn't it?
first of all define found....big difference between found vs documented, autopsied & final findings released to the public.
My guess, is ...and this is just my theory at this point.
They were there and were found...and If I were a betting man
I'd say that photographer with Tamer had some flash memory secreted away. And I'd bet his film had to be cleared with the authorities just like an embedded reporter, unless he was crafty enough to smuggle it out.

Did I forget to mention the Photographer who saw that freezer?
well he has no love for the riot police, some of you may even be familiar with him. Here he is in action helping a colleague who is getting roughed up by the goon squad http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0309,cotts2,42142,6.html

Mike Appleton

this years winner of the prestigious NYPPA best of show award.
and guess what all you intrepid NYC du'ers
check this out:

NYPPA Will hold a general membership meeting HELPING HURRICANE KATRINA VICTIMS The New York Press Photographers Association Will hold a general membership meeting to raise money for the victims of Hurricane Katrina Photographers who covered the hurricane aftermath will be on hand to show photos and tell of their experiences in the hurricane ravaged areas of Mississippi and New Orleans. Some of those include Vincent LaForet and Chang Lee of the New York Times; Mike Appleton and Craig Warga of the New York Daily News; Matt McDermott of the New York Post; John O'Boyle of The Star-Ledger and other photo services will be available. Come share their experiences, images and help raise money for the victims. When: Wednesday, September 28, 6:30 p.m. Where: Jeollado 116 East 4th St, (between First and Second Avenues) Phone [phone] Price: $5 minimum for members for dinner. Donations as high as you want. All proceeds after expenses will go to the National Press Photographers Relief Fund. For more information and RSVP, please call 212-889-6633 or email [e-mail]

He'll be there on Wednesday night to show pictures and share experiences
of Katrina....How very interesting...I'd sure like to be there as I suspect many hidden answers lay in those (Unpublishable?)Photos.

Sure would be a nice party to barge.

I don't care who he is or who he thinks he is, he's full of shit. And sounds like he was one of the looters that the media was in hysterics about.

boy, you have a lot of class...dontcha

and since your declaring bullshit tonight....I'm going to declare it right back on this sentence in the OP:
Inside the Convention Center, Jimmie Fore, vice president of the state authority that runs the center, stayed in the building with a core group of 35 employees until Thursday.

I've seen multiple reports there was no authority there....they had to break in to enter.
Independent witnesses need to come forward and place these 35 people there before I'll believe a word of it.

again from the Tamer article:"There's nobody of authority here," said A.G. Norton, 48. "They left us here under the impression that they weren't going to put us in the Dome because of the conditions there. But what about the conditions here?"

There was no food or water and not a cop or a soldier to be seen.
http://www.nydailynews.com/09-02-2005/news/v-pfriendly/story/342770p-292645c.html

and from Bigfoot:
BF- OK, so we went toward the interstate, we ran into some Deputy Sheriff's I guess, In a boat. Then he said, go to the interstate. Wait there, then somebody gonna come in a bus and take y'all out of town.

q- excuse me, Is the interstate up on a much higher ground level? or is it up on posts, piers?

BF- Yes, it over most of the buildings

q- ok gotcha

BF-So, uhm everybody started going to the interstate, and there were millions , I mean thousands of people on the interstate. So we were like OK , and we saw some trucks... uhaul trucks and flatbed trucks, but they were just taking all day grabbing people....and we thought they were there to take people out of town...they brought everybody to the convention center.

q- Ohh , they didn't take you out of town

BF- Didn't take us out of town they took everybody to the convention center and told em there would be busses to pick them up from there, and that was Tuesday.

q- Was there any water near the Convention center, or was that totally high and dry.

BF- Nope

BF- High and dry

Q- Ok

BF- Totally high and dry

q- alright

BF- Uhm...The water really didn't start coming down Canal street until.... ahh....Wednesday. It was rising but it wasn't pushing up because Canal street is on like a slope. Almost, so it took awhile for it to push up.

q-Ok

BF-And cause again they were trucking everybody from the innercity , from the uptown area from Plaquemines parish, from all different areas to bring to the convention center, cause they said the superdome was full already.

Q- alright

Q- who's in charge at the convention center? was it organized at all?

BF- Nobody...They just put us there...I mean No military, no police officers , no officials, not even the people who run the convention center where there. I
don't even think they knew we were going there.
I mean, I think they did this as just a last ditch effort... to get people out the way, But they didn't tell anybody that we were there. Nobody knew we were there until Wednesday.

q- ha, ha, ha nobod-that's thats almost two days!

BF- Yah thats 2 days without food and water, So we had to break into the refrigerators and everything and feed ourselves off the Convention center(CC) food and everything that they had left in there.

Q- How many, about how many were there in the CC?

BF- At that time when we went from hall A...the halls go from A To J. We had this hall AF(?) it was setting about 3000 people at that time. That was Tuesday, By Wednesday we had about 10.000 people. All halls had filled from the inside to out.

-----------------------------------------

There are others with the same story if you search around.
Somebody's trying to cover their ass.

and THAT is my opinion

[tblue37]

77. Yes, and because of these rumors, rescue workers

were kept away from areas where they were needed,and armed troops were sent instead. Gen. Honore actually had to tell a bunch of lock and loaded troops to put their weapons downand help those people.

This was all because rumors were spread to make the victims seem like dangerous, depraved monsters. I heard an awful lot of "liberals" bitching about them and saying they all deserved what they got if they were going to attack rescuers and shoot at medical helicopters.

Except, of course, that they didn't.

[Pacifist Patriot]

147. I have a distinct memory of being a bit toasted on the backside

right here on DU when I refused to accept the stories as fact. Several people took me to task for not believing that atrocities were taking place...to the point where I second-guessed myself and began to think it could be true.

I feel badly that I did not speak out more and did not contact the media with my concerns. I should have grown a thicker hide.

[marshall]

185. When will Oprah apologize?

I'm waiting too, for Oprah and the rest of the sycophants who fed us that bull to admit their mistakes.

[ladylibertee]

7. I knew it.I knew it.People(retards) were ready and willing to believe the

crap for OBVIOUS reasons.

[NorthernSpy]

9. nominated!

:kick:

And now, I think I'll go mail this article to the "journalists" I took to task weeks ago for spreading rumors.

[shraby]

11. Were these those guys who were heading

to work on the levees and were shot?

"Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities have only confirmed four murders in the entire city in the aftermath of Katrina "

[mccoyn]

36. I wondered the same. -nt

[Hello_Kitty]

13. This will get scant coverage though

The unfounded rumor gets the front page while the retraction is buried near the classifieds.

[wakeme2008]

14. This is like the "rescue copters being shot at"

Backpage was an small article with a statement from FAA that they controlled all copters in NOLA and they had no reports of them being fired at. But OH NO if you listened to Fox they were being shot out of the sky. :grr:

[lcordero2]

15. I thought that this was already too obvious

More than 70% of New Orleans are nonwhites. Everything on the news was put up with the intention of villianizing nonwhites.

[slor]

16. On CBS Sunday Morning show...

they said that after the Galveston Hurricane that killed 8,000, blacks were said to be looters and showed a black man cutting the finger off of a dead white woman to get a ring. Many Blacks were apparently shot on sight, and of course, the stories were false then too.

[Tomee450]

109. That's why I never

believed the lies. I know about how blacks have been slandered in the past.

[stickdog]

17. Remember all the crap some folks here gave those of us who

said these rumors were being purposefully overblown from the start and that we should wait for confirmation before buying their bullshit?

It's weird how silent the "victims brought this upon themselves" crowd has become.

[Kagemusha]

21. Fine, I just woke up this morning so I'll respond.

Let's say something did happen. Where's the evidence? The Superdome cesspool? Where's the witnesses? Spread out over America like a disapora. Where's the hard proof? The power was shot. If anything did happen, it happened in low light conditions more likely than not. So get off your high horse. The government has an obvious interest in saying this stuff was overblown. However, the individuals saying so have, in the vast majority of cases, no direct knowledge that proves or disproves anyway - they just assume, like you do, that it was ALL hype, because that is a self-serving way to view it.

For the record, I don't view victims as bringing this upon themselves at all. There are criminal elements that exist in any large population, in particular large poor populations such as New Orleans' black, urban population, which formed the overwhelming majority of Superdome refugees. What pisses me off is that if there WERE victims of these criminal elements, their victimization has gone unverified, has become unprosecutable, and will likely forever go unpunished. Poor, black victims whose abusers shall never be caught or in any way chastised. Those who brought pain unto the victims will get off because we cannot verify - yay or nay - what they may have done.

And what are we supposed to say about it, anyway? Rape victims (using one example) need food and shelter too; their other needs will become meaningless as long as the recovery effort is a pandemonium of incompetence.

Edit: 1% of the Superdome population is a damn lot of bad apples considering we're talking about one artificially confined leaky barrel.

[NorthernSpy]

27. Stickdog really HAS got the moral highground here...

Let's say something did happen. Where's the evidence? The Superdome cesspool? Where's the witnesses? Spread out over America like a disapora. Where's the hard proof? The power was shot. If anything did happen, it happened in low light conditions more likely than not. So get off your high horse.

No way. Stickdog is absolutely entitled to a good, long ride on the moral highhorse for taking an ethical stand against rumors that harmed a vulnerable and threatened people.

The government has an obvious interest in saying this stuff was overblown. However, the individuals saying so have, in the vast majority of cases, no direct knowledge that proves or disproves anyway - they just assume, like you do, that it was ALL hype, because that is a self-serving way to view it.

It's not up to us to prove a negative. It's up to you lot to show us all those dozens of slit throats y'all were talking about.

I'm sure you'll find them eventually. Right next to the shipments of Niger yellowcake and Iraq's nuclear arsernal.

And "self-serving"? What's more self-serving than your lame apologetics?

[stickdog]

111. Do you understand anything about the psychology of rumors?

Of course some of the people who were in the Superdome and/or Civic Center will spread rumors about the horrible things that supposedly happened there -- whether or not they were firsthand witnesses to these events.

And, of course, there's going to be a certain number of violent crimes taking place whenever people gather together in one place in large numbers. But sociologists will tell you that under dire circumstances like those facing the stranded in New Orleans, crowds are generally remarkably well behaved and self-policing. The BLITHE ASSUMPTIONS of so here many to the contrary -- without so much as a shred of true journalistic confirmation -- are rife with just the sort of underlying racist and classist fallacies that the elite have used to divide all of us "lessers" since the dawn of Western civilization.

[Doris32r]

118. Thank you!!!

I couldn't agree with you more. Very well said!

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FeloniousMonk]

152. I'm new here, so maybe I missed this, but

if someone gives you crap for disputing rumors, does this necessarily mean that they were blaming the victims?

[stickdog]

156. Why else would someone seek to elevate obviously unconfirmed,

counterproductive and ultimately deadly rumors to the status of indisputable fact?

[leveymg]

18. The source for some of the worst rumours was an Ark. Nat'l Guardsman

who was quoted -- without confirmation by any witness -- as saying that he had seen the body of a seven year old girl with her throat slit, and a five year old who had been raped, stacked up in a walk-in refigerator inside the Superdome.

I really blame the reporter for the Picayune Times and his editors for allowing this sort of agitprop to be published.

[rodeodance]

19. and now the media ignors their overstatements!! typical.

......"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases; they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

[leveymg]

22. Contrast this with how the MSM treated the Gretna Sheriffs firing on flee-

ing New Orleans residents story. Despite the multiple eye-witenesses, it took a week for any major media to pick up the story, and then another two days for the NYT to report it.

Is there a pattern here?

[Kagemusha]

24. So we'll just accept what a prosecutor says without question instead.

It's not like they wanted the media back there, is it? Tried hard to ban the media altogether. That'd put a crimp into verifying stories, wouldn't it.

Oh and, I have NO idea where "40 or 50" came from. Certainly not from the Superdome stories. As for the Convention center, 10 or 12 is the max I'd heard. You're familiar with the term, "straw man argument" perhaps? ...Well, whatever. I'm not convincing anyone on this board. FR has one set of myths; DU has another set...

[NorthernSpy]

29. it's time for the hystericos to put up or shut up!

Oh and, I have NO idea where "40 or 50" came from. Certainly not from the Superdome stories. As for the Convention center, 10 or 12 is the max I'd heard. You're familiar with the term, "straw man argument" perhaps? ...Well, whatever. I'm not convincing anyone on this board. FR has one set of myths; DU has another set...

You're not convincing anyone on this board because you can't actually support these claims of mayhem.

[Kagemusha]

53. Sorry. Whatever.

No one was murdered in the Superdome or the convention center. No one. There is no proof to support any such assumption. Without proof we (apparently..) must assume that absolutely nothing of a violent nature happened whatsoever, not only because everyone deserves the presumption of innocence, but because of the historical crime of racism, blacks deserve particular presumption of complete innocence.

Please, just let this die. I am not a racist and I do not spend my life wishing that more people were murdered for *anything*. I apologize.

[NorthernSpy]

59. No way. Hell will freeze solid before I "just let this die"...

If anyone were ever to defame me like that when I was such terrible jeopardy and needing help, I would want a reckoning.

So by God, let there BE a reckoning!

[Kagemusha]

61. I see.

Then I'm truly sorry for offending you.

Goodbye.

[Judi Lynn]

56. The number of dead people stashed at the Superdome was detailed

in the article, with a National Guardsman Col. consulted for the interview, not a political figure:

Following days of internationally reported murders, rapes and gang violence inside the stadium, the doctor from FEMA — Beron doesn't remember his name — came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalled the doctor saying.

The real total?

Six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the handoff of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice.

State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been murdered inside the stadium.
(snip/...)

He had nothing to advance, one way or another.

Everyone dead was accounted for, and explained at that location, and no murder victems thrown to the four winds in the diaspora. Also, as any witnesses to vicious rapes, etc. would presumably still be living, there's no time like the present, once they were safely out of the building to come forward and make a formal statement to POLICE so the criminals may be caught, wherever they went.

I particularly find your remarks concerning acts happening in the dark perplexing, almost like a desperate act to obfuscate! Or was it more personal than that?

[Kagemusha]

57. I have apologized; I said, I have no idea where "40-50" came from

I have absolutely no idea where this prosecutor came up with the idea that the media was spreading rumors of THAT many murders in the first place, because even counting what was rumored with the Convention Center, no way did it approach anywhere near 40 or 50 bodies. I am saying that the worst rumors I heard through media sources never came anywhere close to that number. Anywhere CLOSE.

If that is obfuscation to you, then I am very, very sorry.

Edit: I've alerted the administrators about myself and my own posts here. There's no reason to continue. I'll be banned from this site permanently for racism and bigotry (though that was never my intention whatsoever) so please, let's bury this argument.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carni]

40. I recall reading that article and thinking WTF?

Seemed unlikely that in that so called murder and mayhem environment that dead bodies would have been thoughtfully stacked in a walk in
(that had no power so what would be the freaking point?)

I remember checking at the time to make sure the article wasn't from Newsmax or some bullshit source of that type.

[hedgehog]

20. This was a retelling of an old myth

that "white men have to protect the their women and children from the black savages". (Please - the myth is incredibly false since it was black women who needed protection from white men!) Belief in the myth is the true reason the suburban cops blocked the bridges out of New Orleans.

I'm glad to see some push back with the facts, but I'm afraid we'll be hearing this new variation of the myth for the next 50 years.

[Carni]

41. I agree with you

It's awfully funny that a known wealthy man like Harry Connick Jr could visit the convention center with no security whatsoever...
to be met by warm greeting and pleas for help, but the red cross couldn't get in there because it was *too dangerous*?

Give me an F'ing break...

Maybe we should have Harry Connick Jr head FEMA-he seems to give a damn and have some bravery and common sense!

[raccoon]

162. Yes, that's why Private Lynch business was hyped so much

""white men have to protect the their women and children from the black savages".

If she'd been black or Hispanic we'd probably have never heard her name.

[notadmblnd]

30. I believed from the onset that "they" were making it up

We here at DU all saw and heard what was going on in the Superdome. Many were glued to the cable news and to the police scanners in NO throughout the week. What I listened to on the scanners was totally different from what I heard being reported on the news.

I believe the powers that be wanted to incite the people, they wanted horrible atrocities to be committed in order to justify the genocide they were in the process of committing.

I truly believe that if it hadn't been for the outcry from the blogosphere and some of the reporters that finally had their blinders peeled off by the devastation, many more people would be dead today.

I'm amazed that many have forgotten so fast that the lack of response was not incompetence... it was intentional.

[mom cat]

31. The media fanned the racist fears and played on stereotypes to inflame

the situation. They were shameful and should be called to task for this. These falsehoods created unnecessary panic in Gretna and they blocked the bridge out of NOLA as a result, thus trapping and killing far more people than were killed in the "violent outbreaks".
All the hype so the ratings would go up! Meanwhile, the extent of the real human tragedy is yet to be told.
The media who hyped the violence should be ashamed...very ashamed!

[Eagle_Eye]

94. I wonder what the motive of the media was to publish unverified

stories that endanger people? Outside of just selling another couple of minutes of adverti$ing time, what was the point?

[Judi Lynn]

97. Do you recall reading the words of William Randolph Hearst?

When his artist correspondent,

Frederick Remington,arrived in Cuba to cover the anticipated Spanish-American

war only to find therewere no visible signs of war and cabled Hearst for

permission to come home,Hearst reportedly cabled back, ''You provide the

pictures, and I'll provide the war.''This strategy worked, as the Journal sold

more than a million copies during theheight of the crisis. It also foretold of

what was to come in Hearst's newspapers,the fact that a publisher and the

President had an equal right to act for the nation.
(snip/...)

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/ww1/byrne.html

[Doris32r]

121. I think the point a lot of media were trying to say...

The people of NO had been left with no proper shelter, protection, medical care, or food and water. It was the media who alerted FEMA that there were people at the convention center in the first place. They had no idea. It was the media who alerted the world to the fact that the people of NO had been abandoned by their own country.

Were rapes and murders exaggerated? Who knows? The press were not allowed into the superdome or the convention center. Oprah didn't even go that far in herself. We have no record of what went on there. We never will. The only thing we do know for certain is that NO was abandoned for several days. We know for certain that the rest of the country let that city down. Why? I don't know.

[stickdog]

135. YES, the reports of rampant rape, murder and mayhem were

exaggerated. And these very exaggerations gave a criminal administration cover for its murderous inaction, conned a bunch of people who should know better into thinking that it made sense to restrict the Red Cross from aiding the hungry, thirsty and sick until the city was secured by the military like a foreign enemy, and cost HUNDREDS OF AMERICAN LIVES.

To conflate this (purposeful?) suspension of ALL journalistic standards with the courageous, truthful reporting of those journalists who saw what was happening firsthand serves only to muddy the waters.

[DSperoRN]

157. For the RW, these "crimes" WERE the story

If you listened to Limbaugh et al during the week of Katrina, all you heard was looting and anarchy and mass violence by the victims. Fox and others similarly used the week to slander and dehumanize Black people. Perhaps to divert attention from their government's crimes against humanity, perhaps to gain ratings, but it it was all racism, all the time. Not too different from what we're seeing in Iraq, now that I think of it.

David

[Marie26]

103. True, but

I don't like that it seems to be two choices: either the media completely made up/overhyped the crime based on racism, & nothing bad actually happened - or that all the reports were true & the people of NO were all rioting, shooting helicopters, murdering, etc. I personally believe that both positions are extreme & maybe damaging. I bet the media DID overhype any looting, & repeated false rumors about the shooting at helicopters, rioting, & crime. Since FEMA was apparantly ONLY getting information from the media (according to Brownie), these reports probably contributed to FEMA's decisions to stop rescues & stop charities from helping. That's a tragedy.
But that said, I think it's a mistake to conclude that EVERY report of crime must be false, or that every alleged victim must be making it up. This leads to a "blame the victim" mentality that's a little troubling. We don't KNOW that Charmaine Neville was raped, but she says she was, & I don't see why people would instantly believe she is lying. The doctor at the Convention Center reported that criminals would target women during the day & rape them at night - this was confirmed by a witnesses there. There are 2 confirmed rapes at the Superdome. This HAPPENED. I think the worst thing people could do is try to deny that crimes occured & pretend that all victims are lying. This victimizes them all over again. We should be after truth - exposing both media lies and actual crimes where they exist.

[oblivious]

33. Nominated

[Mizmoon]

35. Remember the looting spreading to suburbs

outside of NO? Bands of black people ripping apart Targets and Walmarts and pharmacies looking for freebies and dope? That was one of my favorite rumors - ranks right up there with the alleged drones that saddam was supposedly going to use to "threaten American cities".

[spotbird]

37. There you go again with your lying eyes

History is rewritten. It was a camp out, just a bunch of whiners exaggerating the problem

[WildClarySage]

39. These are the very building blocks of urban legends and a lot of us

suspected these stories would not pass muster once the authorities were able to get in and realistically assess the situation. That so many were ready to believe these stories is evidence of a national consciousness that believes black=evil, poor=desperate, and mankind is always one cop away from acting like a pack of rabid dogs. These stories fed into our need to believe that we are morally superior because we are white or have more money or live elsewhere. This way some people don't have to feel too awfully bad for the survivors and victims and can absolve themselves of the shame of not preventing this in the first place by placing in power this maladministration, and who are defensive about not giving sufficient aid. Look at some of the horrible e-mails Snopes.com has considered in the past couple of weeks from right wingers who are damned and determined to paint the survivors as ingrates and worse.

[stevedeshazer]

42. Never forget who spread these lies

NIGHTMARE OF ROBBERY, FILTH, DEATH & RAPE IN SUPERDOME
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/52162.htm

Was Katrina Looting Justified?
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,168684,00.html

Did Blanco attempt genocide at Superdome?
http://mhking.mu.nu/archives/116652.php

There are hundreds of similar stories, lies all, perpetrated by the Right.

[1932]

44. I guarantee you it was part of a F.U.D. strategy encouraged by Republicans

The frame determines the soultions.

They didn't want to help people. They want to take away more freedoms so that the wealthy can get wealthier.

[1932]

43. I wouldn't be unhappy if some of the DU'ers most excited about spreading

these lies decided to fall on their swords after being confronted with the truth.

[NorthernSpy]

48. absolutely -- defamation kills!

Which is why we were right to confront it -- despite catching hell from some quarters for doing so.

If there's anything to be learned from the 20th century, it's this: take this kind of thing seriously.

[Patiod]

47. I heard a physician who was at the Superdome interviewed

(sorry I don't have a link). He was trying to do triage there, and rudimentary care (without any supplies)

He said that there weren't any murders.

[Davis_X_Machina]

50. Story on A1...

...retraction on A32. Too many people who saw Mad Max, Beyond Thuderdome, and what they saw with their own eyes, and decided that the first made better copy.

When this republic is finally buried, "Died of a Story Arc" will be on its gravestone.

[Junkdrawer]

51. The exaggeration of the Superdome/Convention Center violence was key to:

1.) Shifting the blame for the fate of the victims from authorities to the victims themselves.

2.) Enlisting the help of neighboring police in trapping the victims at these locations so that they could later be dispersed to FEMA controlled sites around the country.

3.) Justifying the extreme amount of military/paramilitary presence that we now see in NOLA.

In short, it was vital for this administration and their plans for NOLA.

[kath]

90. It also was key to delaying rescue operations for DAYS & DAYS, because the

city was "too dangerous".

[Marie26]

106. Examples

Tony Zambrano, NBC cameraman - Sees buses idling a short distance away from the Convention Center. When Zambrano asks why they aren't picking up the people at the Convention Center, the drivers say it's "too unsafe." On Nancy Grace, an evacuee states that he saw a bus approach the convention center, but when people approached, the driver hit the accelerator and drove away.

Rick Sanchez, CNN - Goes on boat & hears people calling for help from different flooded houses. He assures the people that he'll tell FEMA & someone will come for them. FEMA then tells him they won't go; they've stopped all rescues because it's "too unsafe."

Sanja Gupta - At Memorial Hospital, airlifts of patients are halted for days because of reports that people are "shooting at helicopters," 40 patients later found dead in the hospital - mostly of heat exhaustion/dehydration.

Associated Press - "Some FEMA rescue operations were suspended where gunfire has broken out, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said in Washington. "In areas where our employees have been determined to potentially be in danger, we have pulled back," he said.

It's an echo chamber - with the same rumors swirling & repeated & getting more horrible each time. The media parrots them, the goverment reacts to them, people die for them. I think the slow response in New Orleans is directly related to FEMA's fears about the alleged "dangerousness" of the city. The one thing I have to give the media credit for is that they did cut that out after the first couple days - they stopped repeating what they'd "heard" & the same 30 seconds of looting footage and actually began reporting the truth about the lack of food, water, or help for the Katrina victims.

[oblivious]

143. The Red Cross and army also said they stayed out because it was unsafe.

My only access to news during that time was CNN and in their interview with the head of the Red Cross, she said they couldn't go into NO because it was unsafe.

A US general also said it was unsafe to send in the military until they had overwhelming force. Imagine, safe enough for them to walk the streets of Ramadi but not New Orleans. I thought that was the saddest moment of the entire catastrophe.

[superconnected]

52. who started the murder rumers anyway?

Fox?, in order to further smear the hurricane victims.

ie... "you know black people, they murder, rape and loot..."

[beingthere]

55. You could tell from TV that people were

In fact, it seemed to me the whole time that people were incredibly, amazingly patient considering what they went through.

[Bridget Burke]

63. An executive from a NOLA Hyatt sent a letter to the Houston Chronicle...

He was fearful of the state of his hotel when he returned. Apparently some people broke in to get out of the rain & got something to eat & drink. He pointed out that no property was damaged--furniture, expensive art works, etc. In fact, he said paying guests would have left it in the same condition. He not upset by the non-paying guests.

Simple looting is a problem with disasters. I'm not talking about people looking for necessities, but opportunists. Local police & the NG need to provide security.

But the wild stories out of NOLA sounded odd. None have been proven true.

[Bragi]

65. This is HUGE

This is a hugely important story. The reality is that the chaos that was erroneously reported going on inside the Superdome wasn't a side story, it became THE STORY of the immediate Katrina aftermath.

This misreporting undermined public sympathy for the victims, justified inaction by the authorities, allowed them to mistakenly deal with a humantarian crisis as a security crisis at considerable human cost, and justified the refusal of some communities to house victims.

This major media failure should be widely reported, and thoroughly investigated. I am confident that neither will happen because at the core of what happened lies systemic media bias against poor minorities in the US that even embarrasses its practitioners

- B

[Judi Lynn]

71. I agree with every syllable in your post. Completely.

By the way, if you want to make any Freeper who might be reading your post feel more at home, you might want to try the following: instead of saying "this is huge," you would type: This is HUGH!!1!!11!!11!!!!!1!!

I believe there is a continual effort in place to depersonalize people in order to isolate them, and make them seem like strangers who don't deserve any consideration. (Like calling them "refugees in their own country.) Very ugly business.

Welcome to D.U., Bragi. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[1932]

138. Notice that framing it as a security problem allowed the Feds to start

handing contracts out to the Iraq profiteers -- the security companies.

[jasop]

70. Of all the places where people support government cover ups..

I never thought the People of Democratic Underground would facilitate this massive cover up of the horrors that happened in my home state. I am so shocked and angered by what I am reading in this thread.

I think there are only 2 possibilities:

1) that DU is being infiltrated by a ton of freepers and regime supporters.

2) maybe people just don't want to believe these things could ever happen

either way this is really scary. We had things happen in Baton Rouge that not many want to speak about. REAL things with bodies and crime scenes.

I am too upset to write eloquently right now so I will end this post and write more later...

[Bridget Burke]

72. Then PLEASE give us more information....

Don't ask us to believe things "that not many want to speak about."

I didn't know the Superdome was in Baton Rouge.

[Judi Lynn]

79. We're supposed to assume the worst our imaginations can muster!

The poster appears to have neglected reading the critically important OPENING POST, and it's bonafide link with sources!

We were inundated all right. We were hit by our own tidal wave of lunatics, many of which, (sniff, sniff) aren't with us any longer. They appeared to see it as a great opportunity to loot the respectability from the reputation of the poor trapped in New Orleans, to imply that no one should care what the hell happened to them, as they were alll animals, anyway.

It truly was a backlash of hatred looking for a way to manifest itself.

[Doris32r]

128. Maybe we should be focusing on the fact

That the people in NO were left for days in a hot and humid city with no food and water or medical care or running water for showers. Even if there were no rapes or murders, don't we all agree that the people of the city went through hell? Do we really think the reason the govt took so long to get aid to the city is because they were afraid? Do we not think this could be an attempt to push the blame away from FEMA's and Homeland Security's own incompetence? Are we saying if there had been no reports of looting the govt response would have been faster? The Red Cross goes into dangerous countries all over the world. They wanted to go into NO, regardless of the rumors flying around. Reports that I have read is that FEMA made the mistake of not letting the Red Cross in because they thought it would slow down taking people out of the city. They reasoned, if you feed people they will not want to leave. The Red Cross was not kept out because of the threat of any crime or looting going on.

[stickdog]

136. Exactly. But the reports of rampant, violent criminality -- MUCH THAT

NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED -- were widely used to cover for FEMA's murderous, criminal and completely inexcusable rationale.

[pitohui]

74. thank you i feel the same

this is sick that this site would be complicit in the cover-up of the dead & the raped

here is charmaine neville's story, just one story:

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/090405/new_soul001.shtml

think of all the stories from those who are not celebrities & can't describe what happened

the rapists are going to walk free & it seems to be just peachy w. a certain element of our society

i think i too will have to take a break, i can't believe that ppl are so fast to want the real truth abt the number of dead & injured swept under the rug for some unknown political reason

how does turning the dead & raped into the disappeared further a progressive agenda, you guys are being played big time

[Judi Lynn]

81. You neglected to read the opening post's article.

This story was not concocted by DU'ers who are "soft on rape." The story is very clear, easy to understand.

It states unequivocably that the ration of crap handed out by the media was almost ALL utterly bogus.

It does not refer to Charmaine Neville. It also seems likely that since she IS a well known New Orleans personality her claims will get priority attention if they are in any way verifiable.

We're not likely to jump to prejudiced conclusions. That's the province of the rumor-mongers.

[Kailassa]

84. it's not the freepers this time

Jasop, people here are just reacting to the way in which right wingers have exagerated stories and used them to smear the entire population of New Orleans, to justify neglect to the point of murder, and to make much of the population of America afraid of the refugees* so that voters would not want any money spent on helping them.

We all heard about the supposed incident of someone shooting at a helicopter. Whether or not it actually happened was irrelevant in the long run, as Fema was determined not to rescue blacks or allow supplies in. So what was either a lie or just a single incident was blown up into a myth of an insane, gun crazy population, giving frightened Americans a reason to hate a whole community and leave them to die.

I want to hear your stories, the truth needs to be told, but we have to be aware of how these stories are misused. We don't need to be afraid of looking truth in the eye if we can also see the other side of the story. I'm sure that bushco expected large scale rioting and wanted that as an excuse to slaughter people, but they were stymied by the stoic fortitude of a people who were already used to helping each other in times of trouble.

refugee = One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution
...war with the elements, oppression by an unjust government, it sounds a justifiable use of the word to me, if you see it as condemning the authorities that caused the situation rather than alienating the victims.

[slaveplanet]

87. I believe you

but i don't think it's Freeps , so much as a whole lot of folks out of their comfort zone.

[slaveplanet]

88. self deleted

[stickdog]

132. Oh, please. How about the third possibility?

3. You are more prepared to blame the victims our country left to die of thirst and rot in the streets for their plight -- without a shred of journalistic confirmation -- than we are.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elvisbear]

82. Has anybody spoken to Mikel Brooks (Ark Nat Grd) lately

Has anybody spoken to Mikel Brooks of the Arkansas National Guard to ask
him about his initial report? How about the reporter who interviewed him, Brian Thevenot from the Times-Picayune? Going to one of the original sources of these stories would be the thing to do.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_06.html#077206

[Judi Lynn]

86. I think we can trust the man consulted for the article, the National Guard

official, who has had the time to examine all the evidence, and listesn to all the stories, to have a better view of what has happened than Mikel Brooks, who said he saw 30 or 40 bodies rotting inside the locker at the Superdome.

If you took the time to read the opening article you realize the Colonel detailed the SIX BODIES which were found there, and the causes of death to the SIX BODIES.

[elvisbear]

93. So Mikel Brooks was lying or he needs glasses.

All I asked was to get a statement from Mikel Brooks who says he saw it first hand. I'm not saying what he said was true. Someone should ask him why he said what he said.

[Judi Lynn]

96. So Mikel Brooks' commanding officer was lying, instead?

I don't think so.

[elvisbear]

98. Just ask Mikel Brooks what he saw.

I don't want to hear it from anybody but him. Goto the source, and that would be Mikel Brooks.

[Bridget Burke]

99. Let us know when you find out....

I'm all ears.

[elvisbear]

101. Sure thing

[Judi Lynn]

100. The source quoted in the opening article, the National Guard Colonel

was there, and his word is FINAL. His official assessment corrects the misinformation spewed by your source.

[elvisbear]

102. I believe the Colonel, I just wanted to know if they talked to Brooks.

Good Grief.

[Judi Lynn]

120. Incoming! You may find this interesting.

It's part of an article by the same paper from which you derived your earlier article containing the immortal words of Brooks:

One widely circulated tale, told to The Times-Picayune by a slew of evacuees and two Arkansas National Guardsmen, held that "30 or 40 bodies" were stored in a Convention Center freezer. But a formal Arkansas Guard review of the matter later found that no soldier had actually seen the corpses, and that the information came from rumors in the food line for military, police and rescue workers in front of Harrah's New Orleans Casino, said Edwards, who conducted the review.
(snip)

For a link to the illuminating article, please see Ojai Person's link #117 from the Times-Picayune.

It looks as if someone DID, after all, talk to Brooks.

On edit:

I'm happy to reveal that if you had read far enough in the ORIGINAL POST'S ARTICLE, you would have seen this same information BEFORE your posts regarding the National Guardsman who lied, Mr. Brooks.

[Tomee450]

104. I'm so glad

this is coming out. There have been people on this very site who believed all the lies that were being told. I heard a woman who is quite knowledgeable about crowd behavior in emergencies say that rarely do victims of natural disasters resort to engaging in violent behavior. She did not believe the reports. I just wish this information would be reported by CNN and the other stations since they helped to spread the lies.

[Kailassa]

110. Don't underestimate the evil of their black hearts.

One idea being expressed here is that aid and transport were denied to the stranded victims because of the slanders being repeated. But the truth of the situation is much more evil than that. I'm convinced that lies were deliberately told, and incidents exagerated, in order to justify a course of action that FEMA and the NeoCons had already agreed on. The blocking of the Red Cross and the attempted cutting of phone lines says it all. What happened was bad enough. I hate to think how many would be dead now if no communications had got out of NO, telling of the peoples' plight.

There was a lot of real estate in NO to steal, and I'm sure the NeoCons, with their hatred of welfare and of the poor, had no wish for the dispossessed to be alive at the end of that week.

[Judi Lynn]

116. The outline will be clearer, too, in the time ahead, once the dust settles

(or the water recedes) and it's learned who owns everything now.

It's no understatement that the right-wing Republicans have utter hatred, contempt, disrespect for the poor, even as they posture grandly about their religiosity.

[redqueen]

112. I'm shocked, shocked that the media tells lies!

Think the average person will soon start thinking critically?

Nah, me neither.

[Judi Lynn]

115. Heaven forbid anyone should have to think it over, evaluate, question,

use common sense!

It's really too much trouble. I'm against it, too.

[Helga Scow Stern]

117. Times-Picayune: The real story of convention center violence and deaths

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4890905

[Judi Lynn]

119. This is excellent.

Isn't it sad the same publication carried some really wild and wooly stories earlier?

They had the character to come forward with this, and it's surely to their credit.

Thank you.

[pitohui]

122. the times-picayune is republican owned & operated

during the storm they surprised me with some of their coverage

now they've gone back to their GOP roots

above all, lie abt the crime, lie abt anything that will interfere w. the real estate industry (this industry is a major advertiser w. its own section in the newspaper)

read the two stories side by side

in the original story the reporter says straight up that the nat'l guardsman pointed out the bodies to the reporter

someone is lying here

i can believe the story that comes out weeks after the fact, with an obvious slant to impress developers & money men that "things ain't so bad"

or i can believe the witnesses on the scene at the time the events in question were occurring

i'm sorry, if i have to pick & choose, i believe the witnesses & the reporters on the scene at the time, not the claims of highers-up some weeks later who have a financial motive to pretty things up

this whitewash is the kind of thing i'd expected to be swilled at free republic

if you don't know the area, & you don't know the context, and the defenders of the whitewash clearly do NOT, then be careful of what you are defending

you are allowing the dead to become the disappeared & it ain't gonna stand

[Tomee450]

126. But for some people who are inclined to believe

the worse about a certain people, the facts reported by reputable authority on the scene will be dismissed. The doctor mentioned in the article was on the scene as were some of the national guardsmen. Yet you prefer to believe unverified accounts. There is no need for any whitewash. Businessmen and contractors are salivating at the prospect of rebuilding NO. What would be the purpose of whitewashing now? It certainly would not affect the plans of those wishing to make money in the rebuilding of the city. There were lies told about the people in the Superdome and the Convention center, lies which some people wish to continue believing.

[stickdog]

131. What a load of Orwellian tripe!

Do you also believe that Chalabi's information was 100% accurate and that Republicans have conspired to keep the WMDs hidden to protect the Iraqi real estate market?

because that makes the same amount of sense as what you just posted ...

[VegasWolf]

123. Everything Hunky Dory!! No Problems here! Move Along!! nt

[Judi Lynn]

130. Interesting remarks from a Guardian article:

Murder and rape - fact or fiction?

....New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: "We don't have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward."
(snip)

And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward.

Katrina's winds have left behind an information vacuum. And that vacuum has been filled by rumour.

"There is nothing to correct wild reports that armed gangs have taken over the convention centre," wrote Associated Press writer, Allen Breed.

"You can report them but you at least have to say they are unsubstantiated and not pass them off as fact," said one Baltimore-based journalist.

"But nobody is doing that."

Either way these rumours have had an effect.

Reports of the complete degradation and violent criminals running rampant in the Superdome suggested a crisis that both hastened the relief effort and demonised those who were stranded.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1563532,00.html

[WinkyDink]

133. No kidding.

Like we didn't know this was racist Bushco at work.

[Megahurtz]

139. Gee, ya think that maybe it was "unsupported by any evidence"

and that you "didn't see any killing or raping or cutting of throats or anything" maybe because
IT TOOK YOU SO FUCKING LONG TO GET HERE???:think:

[hedgehog]

142. People ask why would anyone make up such stories

I live in an area that was caught up in the Satanist rumor about 15 years back. Everyone "knew" that a Satanist cult had been murdering infants and raping children to placate Satan. The only problem was, not only were there no dead or raped children, there weren't even any Satanists! It's just that any group of teenager with a bon-fire or a can of spray paint (for painting upside down pentagrams) fed the wild rumors.

Why would anyone make up stories about children being abused by groups of adults at day care centers? Innocent people went to jail for years before the stories were shown to be totally without basis.

[daleo]

146. I thought at the time most of the stories sounded like urban legends

At best, they sounded like that. At worst, they sounded like demonization of victims of a natural catastrophe. A generous assessment would be cognitive dissonance by most of the population - a more realistic one would be racism and classism, at least to a pretty significant extent.

[littleraf]

153. NewsJock Deserves An Award For This News gem N/T

[Judi Lynn]

155. littleraf, you deserve an award, for your gift to this conversation.

Your perspective and the authority with which you speak, your refusal to be intimidated by these bullies, your presence on this thread are welcome beyond belief.

Each one of your posts I've read on this threads deserves its own commendation, as each one brings a huge light to shine on the relentless racism which seeks to disguise itself as innocent discussion among "adults." There is a heavy undertow in loaded commentary. It attempts to bury anyone who disagrees with it. It can drive people who aren't up to the challenge away, when they can't find the words to confront the antagonism.

It's tremendous witnessing your arrival here. Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uncle Bob]

160. Reports of... "anarchy" ?

(setting the whole "ferienlager" NO buisness of your fascist government aside)

Here's how dumb, brainwashed people are borne:

"Reports of anarchy at Superdome overstated"

Anarchy? Really? Did the people of Superdome decided to reject government rule and govern themselfs in a non-hierarchical self governing quasi-society?

Nope... This is just like with "communism"... You are being brainwashed by the governement into beliving anarchy == rape, murders, crap.

As it was a few decades ago "communists are evil and satanic". Your governemnts succedeed into equating communism (an ECONOMICAL model) with totalitarism (a POLTICAL/SOCIAL model). So, 'people working together and sharing resources for their common good' is suddenly evil.

But Anarchy == (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_%28word%29)... Just read it there and follow the links...

A bit out of context with the discution but I belive it's worth showing that even samll things count in brainwashing.

[Bridget Burke]

164. "Anarchy" is not the same as "Anarchism"

Anarchy is a description of chaotic behavior.

Anarchism is a political movement--actually, several movements. I'm especially fond of the Mexican & Spanish proponents.

Some of us were actually gathering knowledge before Wikipedia!

[Uncle Bob]

166. Mo... they just happen to sound almost the same :P

Actually "Anarchy" describes a state of "Anarchism"... The debate is purely syntactical...

The use of the word "anarchy" to describe chaos and likes is wrong because the current establihment dictates the dogma of "there can be no order without a government to control"...

It is simply a bad choice of words, wether it is made willingly or accidentaly...

[GayCanuck]

163. I think the other one

was the 10-25 thousand deaths that the mayor predicted. The media is so quick to report without having facts.

[Judi Lynn]

165. I don't recall 10 to 25,000 getting any play in our press.

Do you have any links to big stories done on this projection?

[GayCanuck]

171. I get the Toronto Star

I'll try to see if there is a link online.

[GayCanuck]

172. Couldn't find the Toronto Star article but

here is the local TV station in New Orleans:


"Nagin has said the death toll in New Orleans alone could reach 10,000, and state officials were ordering 25,000 body bags."



http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/090805ccKatrinajcwcMainStory.7020516b.html


New Orleans holdouts wavering

City readies 25,000 body bags

[mike923]

169. We got what we wanted....

The terrible stories made Bush and his administration look bad, and he has taken a terrible beating in the polls. I'm not worried about why he has taken a nose dive, just as long as it keeps happening.

[NorthernSpy]

170. that makes no sense

Actually, those terrible rumors took the heat off the authorities at all levels of government. The American public were wrongly encouraged to believe that the horror of the situation was the fault of the survivors themselves. I mean, how could the govt be blamed for not helping those trapped in New Orleans when "those people" were supposedly shooting at the rescue helicopters?

:eyes:

I'm not worried about why he has taken a nose dive, just as long as it keeps happening.

Like I said, the "survivor mayhem" rumors aren't what hurt Bush. And lies should not be spread in any case, no matter how politically useful they might be.

Don't you agree?

[mike923]

176. There's all kinds of lies....

And the media will pile on where it makes them money. They piled on, in my opinion, with the story that it was the federal governments fault for all aspects of the hurricane, to the point it effected Bush's poll numbers. It was as if the 24 hour news stations expected Bush to fly air force one down there, and redirect the hurricane. It was a circus. I really do feel the stories hurt Bush, and i don't care.

To me, you can't trust what the main steam media spills out, as they have their own agenda, which is to make a profit. The more exaggerated the story, the more viewers, the more money.

Just like Clinton, they piled on him, and it hurt Gore's chance in 2000, the same thing will happen for Bush. People also get tired of their leaders after a while, which is why i'm optimistic about 2006 and 2008.

[Bridget Burke]

181. Bullshit.

The media finally criticized Bush because the ongoing story in NOLA was so obviously horrible & he so obviously didn't care.

NOBODY expected Bush to fly Air Force 1* anywhere. (But why did he fly it to fundraisers as Katrina aimed at NOLA?) He could have cut his vacation short & done some work from DC. Of course, he never really works, does he? Or he could have let his underlings handle it--but they are all fools, too. (When the idiot was installed, people said "well, he'll appoint good people.")

Were the Governor of Louisiana & the Mayor of NOLA 100% perfect when dealing with the storm? Probably not. But Bush's inaction was so painfully obvious that the media finally woke up. Just a bit. They did tell the truth on this one.

---------------

The "fly Air Force 1 down there" phrase has popped up when people excuse Bush's criminal negligence in preventing 9/11. And his craven actions on that day. Perhaps the Bush apologists need a new phrase?

[stickdog]

183. So you think the Bush Administration did all it could to respond to

Katrina and the subsequent flooding of New Orleans?

Do you think stranding thousands of the poorest and most helpless Americans to die of thirst, hunger and a lack of medicine until you show up for a photo op three days later is acceptable leadership?

[mike923]

184. Sure i think there is blame to go around, but i also think

the stories were over blown as this article talked about, and honestly i don't know that the standard operating proceedure wasn't followed prior to the storm.

If i was in New Orleans, i certainly wouldn't trust a government organization such as FEMA to move, feed, and house me. What is FEMA? At it's basic level, its people like you and me, who have their own families that come first. If you worked for them, would you risk your own health and safety to help people you don't know?

If you are asking why the government didn't have convoys of helicopters dropping food and water into the flooded areas minutes after the flood walls broke, well you aren't asking for something from FEMA, you are asking something of the US military. As they are the only organization capable of reacting that quick. And we both know we wouldn't be happy if the US Military reacted that quickly. We'd scream bloody murder at Bush for having us live in a police state.

[stickdog]

190. Do you even know what FEMA stands for?

The whole reason for their EXISTENCE is to respond to emergencies like Katrina and the NO flood.

Saying it's acceptable that FEMA employees would put their friends and families first is like saying that you can't expect American troops not to put their friends and family ahead of their duties to their superior officers. Are you really saying that it's OK to entrust our country's HOMELAND SECURITY to incompetent people who put their personal needs ahead of our country's security? If that's the case, why even have a Homeland Security department?

If you are asking why the government didn't have convoys of helicopters dropping food and water into the flooded areas minutes after the flood walls broke, well you aren't asking for something from FEMA, you are asking something of the US military.

No, I'm asking why FEMA didn't just let in the Red Cross and many other relief organizations, who were camped outside New Orleans for days and still haven't been let in. And I'm asking why FEMA didn't take the call of the head of that national bus consortium who tried to donate hundreds of air conditioned buses to the evacuation effort. And I'm asking why the head of FEMA and Homeland Security hadn't learned about the scene at the Convention Center until DAYS after I and everyone in my family was aware of the situation.

As they are the only organization capable of reacting that quick. And we both know we wouldn't be happy if the US Military reacted that quickly. We'd scream bloody murder at Bush for having us live in a police state.

The National Guard can and does move that quickly. Unfortunately, much our National Guard has been converted into fulltime military in Iraq by Bush. Furthermore, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the military responding quickly to deliver relief and/or search & rescue teams to domestic emergency sites. The only problem is when the Pentagon takes the lead in domestic LAW ENFORCEMENT. Do you or do you not understand the difference?

[genieroze]

173. How can this be, poor and working class people NOT violent??????

:sarcasm:
I'm assuming many were poor and working class because the upper class high tailed it outta there in there in their SUV's and Hummers. I'm sure there may have been a few of them who were caught off guard though.

[ecstatic]

182. I believed this all along, and doubted Neville's story

As others have already pointed out, there are way too many holes in her story. Plus, she was very casual in the way that she said she was raped. I believe this incident caused a lot of divisiveness on the DU boards because it was such a stressful time. I forgive everyone who talked to me nasty when I was defending the honor of African Americans stuck in NOLA.

[NorthernSpy]

192. I guess I'm just not as forgiving as you...

I believe this incident caused a lot of divisiveness on the DU boards because it was such a stressful time. I forgive everyone who talked to me nasty when I was defending the honor of African Americans stuck in NOLA.

Why forgive them? The slander faction have avoided this thread like the plague. If they were sorry -- and if there were anything there worth forgiving -- they'd have spoken up.

They're not sorry. So maybe they can just go to hell.

[Judi Lynn]

187. Reports of rape, murder at Katrina evacuation sites were probably exaggera

September 27, 2005

Reports of rape, murder at Katrina evacuation sites were probably exaggerated, officials now say

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - On Sept. 1, with desperate Hurricane Katrina evacuees crammed into the convention center, Police Chief Eddie Compass reported: "We have individuals who are getting raped; we have individuals who are getting beaten."

Five days later, he told Oprah Winfrey that babies were being raped. On the same show, Mayor Ray Nagin warned: "They have people standing out there, have been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people."

The ugliest reports - children with slit throats, women dragged off and raped, corpses piling up in the basement - soon became a searing image of post-Katrina New Orleans.

The stories were told by residents trapped inside the Superdome and convention center and were repeated by public officials. Many news organizations, including The Associated Press, carried the witness accounts and official pronouncements, and in some cases later repeated the claims as fact, without attribution.

But now, a month after the chaos subsided, police are re-examining the reports and finding that many of them have little or no basis in fact.
(snip/...)

http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=3905479&nav=1ugO

[McCamy Taylor]

188. Lying news media KILLED survivors trapped inside NOLA, they

could not get out to Gretna and suburbs which claimed to be afraid of the violence and relief workers were barred by FEMA from getting in supposedly for fear of violence.

Shoddy, sensational journalism KILLS.