Undeclared Civil War In Iraq (CBS)

[IChing]

(CBS) Behind the blood and chaos of the insurgents' bombs, there is an undeclared civil war already underway in Iraq, between the Sunni minority who ruled this country under Saddam and the Shiite majority.

CBS News correspondent Lara Logan reports there is a secret, ruthless cleansing of the country's towns and cities. Bodies — blindfolded, bound and executed — just appear, like the rotting corpses of 36 Sunni men that turned up in a dry riverbed south of Baghdad.

CBS News traced 16 of those men to a single street in a Baghdad suburb, where family members showed CBS News how the killers forced their way into their homes in the middle of the night and dragged away their sons and fathers.

"My uncles were tortured, they even poured acid on them," a young boy told CBS News.
>>>>snip

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/26/eveningnews/main886305.shtml

[Hissyspit]

1. Hmm, they must be talking about the civil war Thomas Powers warned

about (as well as others) two days before the ground war started in 2003

Good of them to play catch up. And since when is any civil war DECLARED?

[Hardrada]

6. Spain 1936

The pronunciamento of the generals seizing power from the Republic.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. Yes, but they're so fortunate to be rid of the tyrrany of Saddam

and to have the opportunity at freedom. And thank God there's no more mass graves.:sarcasm:

[Dunvegan]

3. You beat me to it, CrunchyFrog...

..."pre-zactly".

Having vastly more money and power than Saddam, the * Executive Branch "Dividians" should top in numbers in a few more months what it took Saddam decades to rack up.

The destabilization of Iraq is a "done deal."

There will be civil war for years with us or without us.

It probably will be a shorter civil war without us.

American and "Coalition" participation and provocation in this war needs to be stopped.

WE need to stop this war NOW.

[Crunchy Frog]

7. They keep talking about turning it over to the Iraqi forces.

But I don't see how the Iraqi Army and police forces can continue to sustain 200-300 fatalities per month, and God only knows how many wounded, to say nothing of the vast areas of the country that are run by independent militias connected with various ethnic groups, and sects.

This is just an unbelievable clusterfuck and I honestly don't know which would be worse, trying to salvage some kind of order out of the mess there (if that's even possible) or simply bugging out ASAP and let the chips fall where they may. Of course, that discussion is a mainly an academic exercise, since Bush is going to stay there and continue to fuck it up to the maximum extent possible.

Afghanistan is deteriorating in a big way too. Apparently the Afghan insurgents are now going to Iraq to learn the latest insurgency techniques. Nice work Junior.:grr:

[KansDem]

30. "Don't see how...police forces can...sustain 200-300 fatalities per month"

Maybe if British (and American?) commandos stop dressing like Arabs and killing members of these police forces, they might bring the situation under control. But then, that might lead to stability which would be the beginning of the end for a American/British presence in Iraq...

[Bhaisahab]

12. how, if i may ask?

you said - "WE need to stop this war NOW."
without being sarcastic, i'd really like to know how? I haven't seen one idea that seems like a good one to stop this war.
for instance, if america just ups and leaves, a bad situation could just get worse. so by "stop the war" i hope you don't mean the end of american involvement in iraq?

peace-o.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. I think Bush has kind of painted us into a corner

we're we, and the Iraqis, are screwed if we do and screwed if we don't. Sort of screwed whichever way you go. We've basically turned Iraq into a hell hole, and nothing that this country does is likely to change that at this point.

"Fortunately", with Bush in charge, none of us really has to worry about our opinion making any difference whatsoever, so I don't see any problem if someone wants to advocate immediate withdrawl. What's Bush going to do, listen to their suggestion? At least it holds his feet to the fire and keeps him reminded that alot of people are unhappy with how he's fucked things up.

[Bhaisahab]

15. that's a good point

"it holds his feet to the fire and keeps him reminded that alot of people are unhappy with how he's fucked things up"

yeah, calling for the end to war does that, at least.

[IChing]

4. Yes indeed, when is a civil war declared?

Or Civil disobedience ?

[Dunvegan]

5. Good question, IChing...

...when is "conflict" officially designated a "civil war?"

When is "civil unrest" officially designated "civil disobediance?"

In the history books?

[Cosmocat]

8. From the, "if it isn't broke" ...

School of thoughts ... You have a middle eastern country, centuries old blood fueds, religion, oil ... Yeah, REAL good idea taking down the dictator who held it all together ...

The world view of so many people in this country is so incredibly small ... They just don't get that there was a reason why the people of that country allowed a dictator to rule ... It TOOK A DICTATOR to hold it together ... People who think the way these people do need that authoritarian figure ...

Either way, as noted, it is done ... There is NO winning this war ... The US SCREWED the Sunnis both ways ... The Sunnis will NEVER stop enabling/participating in the "insurgency," and now that the dam has broken they have been left vulnerable to the the majority who wants a little pay back ...

AND, that does not even factor in Iran ... HOW BIG A MESS DOES THIS BECOME FOR THE US IF IRAN DECIDES TO START GETTING REAL FROGGY IN IRAQ ???

[aquart]

11. Actually, that would be just fine.

For us. It would suck for the Iraqis.

Nah, keeping Iran busy with a war would be just fine. They may have religious affiliations...but the people of Iran are Persian, not Arab and they'll tell you so. So let them waste their own treasury like we've wasted ours. Fine by me.

What BushCo never understood because they never paid attention in class, is that even if their grandiose plan succeeded, WE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO KEEP THE OIL. It isn't in our sphere of influence, and China AND India are both getting oil hungry. And, oh look! They're next door.

We need to leave NOW.

[Ravenseye]

21. Their world view is much broader than the average American's.

It didnt' take a dictator to hold it together. It did just fine for 3 decades and was peacefull, and almost as advanced as the rest of the industrialized world. The military dictatorships started not because the place was falling apart, or the people needed an authoritarian figure. There was a coup. The military took control. the people didn't want it or need it. The chaos now is mostly caused by that authoritarian rule.

[Dunvegan]

9. I chance speaking heresy...

...but it seems that Vietnam quieted down in about a decade after the French and then the Americans got the heck out.

Dominos, anyone? Feh.

(Edited to say: Let cultures come to their own way of working out their problems...something like "The Prime Directive."

http://www.70disco.com/startrek/primedir.htm

As little as I care for the hijacking of our government as it stands, I'd certainly become a Minuteman in a second if another superpower...lower case "s"...tried to land on our shores and help us in a "regime change.")

[truthisfreedom]

10. just when you think bush's knuckles are dragging so low he can't stumble,

every single fucking thing he tried to pretend wouldn't happen in Iraq and we insisted would happen is now happening.

bush has 3 years of total hell in front of him. i actually pity the man/beast. if i was God (or believed in one) i might consider intervention. naww, let him destroy himself. perhaps we'll have the first presidential suicide!

[Tesla]

14. Maybe I'll be like Dorothy, and wake up from this NIGHTMARE!!!!

[Peachhead22]

27. The only problem with that...

...is * is taking the country along for his little ride into hell.

[Massachusetts]

16. "Undeclared Civil War In Iraq (CBS)"

Now I know why I do the blog thang...

Juan has been discussing this for Many months. The "main" stream media is dead. IMO

http://www.juancole.com/

[Corgigal]

17. Freedoms on the March

but it might be better if they start running.

[0007]

18. I wonder who we'll install to run the country this time?

[Delphinus]

19. Good question.

I hope CBS doesn't drop this and that it is splashed on the headlines of every newspaper. I want to see the boy king answer the question about what do to now that it's turned into a Civil War. I can hear it now ... "nobody could have anticipated Civil War."

[slay]

20. Sad - but not surprising

Saddam was in power there for a reason you know. It's hard to keep a bunch of religious nuts in line. They are more than willing to die for their "God". :(

[Roland99]

22. This is liberty? This is freedom?

This is murderous chaos on a level FAR above what was going on under Saddam.

We've read the articles that morgues are filling up and can barely handle the daily load of corpses coming, either killed by U.S fire, insurgents, suicide bombers, or murdered by the hands of thugs that have taken control of the streets of the cities of Iraq. Iraq is closer to a Taliban-style rule once you step outside the Green Zone.

This is the result of 2,117 lives (1,920 which were American)?

This is the result of $200 billion of American taxpayer dollars?


This is madness...madness caused by the failed ideology of the PNAC members of this most foul of U.S. administrations.

[bemildred]

23. So this is the excuse to stay when the charter referendum fails?

And it's not a civil war, at least yet, it's a guerilla war
against an occupying army and it's stooges and collaborators.
And I would wager that if a civil war ensues when we leave it
will not remain within the boundaries of Iraq.

[november3rd]

24. Civil War

Shucks. We didn't know that was going to happen! We thought we could keep Iraq "safe for democracy."

[Peachhead22]

25. So the press and Bush administration...

...expect the Sunnis and Shia to formally declare war? Will they say "well, nobody declared it so we just fine"? Maybe they expect Marquis of Queensbury rules too.

Iraq has been at civil war for well over a year now. It's pathetic that the press is only just now timidly calling it what it is.

[rodeodance]

26. yet about a month ago Rummy said he saw no evidence of civil war when

asked at a press confernce.




Iraq has been at civil war for well over a year now. It's pathetic that the press is only just now timidly calling it what it is.

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. Who is going to declare it? Bodies turn up, bombs explode

people are shot, yet 3 years later nobody seems to know who is doing any of it, or why.

At some point there will be a general uprising that will come as a "total surprise" out of the blue to rumsfeld and bush. At that point the policy will shift toward total street by street occupation by US forces of Iraq. It will be made clear that we are there to secure the oil fields for US consumption and we had better get used to it.

[sofa king]

29. It's obvious that we need more troops in Iraq.

Freepers, I'm looking in your direction. I don't see you volunteering. Why do you hate freedom in Iraq?

[struggle4progress]

31. kick

[NYC]

32. Was this on the television news?

I couldn't tell from reading the link.

[ChoralScholar]

33. You're welcome Iraq!!!

Glad we could be of help.

[underpants]

34. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees...

or sorry worng thread. My bad.