Venezuela threatens to take over oil fields

[Say_What]

:wtf: "Threatens???" Venezuela is exercising its sovereign right to claim its own resources as specified in Venezuela's Hydrocarbons Law.

<clips>

CARACAS -- Venezuela, the world's fifth-largest oil producer, may take over fields operated by private companies if they don't convert operating contracts to joint ventures by a Dec. 31 deadline, Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez said yesterday.

State-run Petroleos de Venezuela SA plans to end all such operating contracts by the end of the year and will make no exceptions, Mr. Ramirez said. The company will hold as much as 80 per cent of the shares of the ventures, said Mr. Ramirez, who also is president of Petroleos de Venezuela.

"These operating contracts are illegal," Mr. Ramirez said. When asked what Petroleos de Venezuela would do if private producers refuse to convert the operations, he said, "We will assume production of the fields ourselves."

Petroleos de Venezuela currently has 32 contracts with 22 companies that operate and manage oil fields for it. The companies include Chevron Corp., Repsol YPF SA and Petroleo Brasileiro SA. Transitional agreements were signed with eight of the companies in August.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050927/IBCHAVEZ27/TPBusiness/International

[Beaver Tail]

1. Lets hope this won't be another 1953 Iran Coup

[fshrink]

2. Begins to look like Chile...

Any Venezualian here?

[sando]

3. Now the reasons for wanting Chavez finally come to light

DOH how could I have been so stupid not to have figured out it was yet once again oil. Which by the way was the raison d'etre behind Nam to get at the Indonesian oil fields.

[Why Syzygy]

80. You didn't know THAT?

O.I.L. Yes. That is ALWAYS the reason.

When oh when will any "leader" realize we need alternative fuels?
After they own every drop of oil on the planet?

[Johnyawl]

163. That is one of the most far-fetched ideas I've ever heard

...the raison d'etre behind Nam to get at the Indonesian oil fields.

1)I would suggest that you take a good, hard look at an atlas, and then figure out just how removed VietNam is from any portion of Indonesia. If you're trying to intimidate, or threaten Indonesia, you would use bases in Australia (which was allied to us under SEATO); and bases in Sarawak (which the British had at the time. They too were signatories of SEATO) We had the ability to project our military power into Indonesia, without Vietnam.

2) I would also suggest that you consult a historical timeline to understand the changes that were taking place in Indonesia just as our buildup in Vietnam was beginning. In 1965 Sukarno was overthrown and replaced by Gen. Suharto, who was much more amenable to western influence and investment. At the same time the Indonesian Communist party was wiped out.

3) Finally I would suggest that you read a good history book. Not everything our government has ever done is about oil. Right or wrong, necessary or a great waste of time and money, we were fighting a "cold War" against the Soviet Union, and their proxies. The Vietnamese movement that threw the French out in 1954 was essentially a nationalist independence movement. The Viet-Minh were no more proxies of the USSR than Tito was. We should have treated Ho Chi Minh just like we treated Tito. We did not, and it was our reaction to their victory over the French that led to the partition of Vietnam, the subsequent civil war, and our involvement to prop up our proxy. All because we were blinded by an irrational fear of communism

Oil had nothing to do with it.

[Judi Lynn]

4. It's always a country's loss when the right-wing Republican pResident

decides he's going to control the government there. I hope Latin America has learned from watching the way previous Republican Presidents have devastated previous popular leaders in the hemisphere, and they are not going to let history repeat itself.

They have every right in the world to seek their own course without _Bush butting into their internal affairs.

I hope they are up to the suffering he will undoubtedly inflict on them. As someone once said in this hemisphere, prior to his murder, "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

[foflappy]

14. Do you know anything

about how chavez came to power???

[funnymanpants]

15. Yes

Through an election, in which he trounced his opponenets.

[foflappy]

19. Obviously

you have not look into this very deeply...

[funnymanpants]

23. Oh really?

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=682&id=960002004

Carter vow on Chavez election

MARGARET NEIGHBOUR

JIMMY Carter, a former president of the United States, and other international election monitors have pledged to dispel opposition claims that the Venezuelan referendum that sought to oust the president, Hugo Chavez, was rigged.

Yesterday, they were due to be witnesses as election officials checked a random sampling of results from 150 voting stations - a rare follow-up move to an election they have already said looked clean.

"We have no reason to doubt the integrity the accuracy of the referendum results," Mr Carter told a news conference on Tuesday, while the leaders of ten Latin American countries congratulated Mr Chavez on his "democratic victory".

[foflappy]

27. He has no respect for constitutions

From coup-leader to president

The ex-paratrooper's journey along the road to power has been an eventful one.

In February 1992, he led an attempt to overthrow the government of President Carlos Andres Perez amid growing anger at economic austerity measures.

"The foundations for that failed coup had been laid a decade earlier, when Mr Chavez and a group of fellow military officers founded a secret movement named after the South American independence leader, Simon Bolivar.

The February revolt by members of the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement claimed 18 lives and left 60 injured before Mr Chavez gave himself up.

He was languishing in a military jail when his associates tried again to seize power nine months later.

That second coup attempt, in November 1992, was crushed as well, but only after the rebels had captured a TV station and broadcast a videotape of their leader announcing the fall of the government.

Mr Chavez spent two years in prison before being granted a pardon.

He then relaunched his party as the Movement of the Fifth Republic and made the transition from soldier to politician."

[funnymanpants]

33. This is a non sequitor

This only proves that Chavez once launched a failed coup. He was elected to Venezuela.

[Why Syzygy]

85. He certainly was elected

more than once. Even after the USofA tried to de-seat him, the PEOPLE wanted him back, and he came back. Isn't that "democracy"?

I don't know the whole story, nor do I care. It is their COUNTRY! THE PEOPLE. ya know?

edit: ANYONE who is on Pat Robertson's hit list must be a good guy.

[Judi Lynn]

49. No country is obligated to keep in power a man who orders massacres

You should be bright enough to recognize that. You should be.

Since you're claiming to be an expert on Venezuelan history, you should consult your memory for the wanton murder of poor Venezuelans protesting unbearable economic hardship inflicted upon them by Carlos Andres Pérez, the corrupt President who was later impeached.



Hugo Chavez and the copy
of Venezuela's constitution
he keeps with him always.

[Say_What]

124. El Caracazo, etc...

Some background on Perez who from Miami (where else?) said: "I am working to remove Chavez . Violence will allow us to remove him. That's the only way we have,", published in Venezuela's most rabbid RW El Nacional.


<clips>

...Venezuelans overwhelmingly chose Chavez in 1998 and again in 2000, because they remembered what former presidents did - a memory that neither the media nor human rights groups seem to possess.

On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest. But Perez apparently did not expect Venezuelans to respond to "economic shock" programs with spontaneous protests, which erupted throughout the country. In some areas, rioters torched shops and set up roadblocks.

When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.

Perez, who called himself a socialist, first imposed draconian measures on the poor and then had them shot when they objected. The Caracazo as the event became known, not only destroyed Venezuela's aura of stability but put an end to the political system that had replaced the ousted military dictator Perez Jimenez in 1958.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN407A.html

[Judi Lynn]

139. Great info. Just what the doctor ordered!

It's one thing to throw around facts pretending to be reality when they are stripped of context, right?

Everything a person needs to know about Carlos Andres Pérez in a short but dynamic look is right there! The man against whom Hugo led the coup,after embezzling 17,000,000 dollars, equivalently, after Pérez forced unbearable hardship on the poorest, a HUGE number, after Pérez had troops gunning them down in the streets, after he was IMPEACHED, for Christ's sakes, he NOW calls for Chavez's assassination from Miami, from New York, from wherever his fancy takes him, while visiting tools launch small attacks on the man who helped get him out of Venezuela's government.

From your article:

One voice in the anti-Chavez chorus has a familiar ring to his voice. Former President Carlos Andres Perez gives TV and newspaper interviews as an authority on democracy and good government. Convicted of embezzlement and having given the command for army troops to fire at his own people, this mass murderer somehow claims to occupy moral high ground.
(snip)

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, along with the U.S. Government, have contributed not only to political confusion about Venezuela. By misusing the words, democracy and human rights, they have created a semantic nightmare. They seem to accept US coups and destabilization campaigns as compatible with democracy, while Chavez's efforts to make majority rule a reality by providing for basic substantive rights become an offense. He has not shut down, censored or interfered with the media or the property that belong to his enemies. You figure it out!
(snip/)

Stupendous! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[Judi Lynn]

20. Why don't you explain what you're hinting at?

Are you referring to the coup he led against the impeached-for-massive-corruption previous President of Venezuela, Carlos Andres Pérez? The crime for which he was completely pardoned by a later Venezuelan President, after Pérez was removed from office?

Are you speaking about the coup formed after Carlos Andres Pérez ordered his troops to fire into a crowd of poor people protesting the harsh increase Pérez had required, which forced them all to pay far, far more than they could afford for their only means of transportation, the buses? Are you speaking of the response to the murder of many Venezuelans in the streets of Caracas?

Many of us know exactly what happened prior to the election of Hugo Chavez.

Why don't you simply spit out what your attempting to say, rather than taking up everyone's time trying to guess what it is you're trying to communicate?

[foflappy]

29. I do not support the

violent overthrow of a goverment and I do not support the govenment taking private property..I do not support a government that uses threats to stay in power..etc.....

[funnymanpants]

34. This is very vague

You might not support these things, but you have not shown how Chavez is guilty of these things.

He was elected. His opponents tried to recall him from office, and Chavez crushed his opponents in a recall vote.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say private property. The US government also seizes private property through iminent domain.

[foflappy]

65. Always back to what the US

does....I have made my self quite clear in my posts but I will say it again: IMHO I do not trust the man (or any man or woman) who tries to take power by murder.

Look...I don't agree with the majority of the US policies and how things are run in the US but that does not mean that I love every other country. I am an equal opportunity critic!!:)

[funnymanpants]

151. No, you haven't

>>Always back to what the US"

Hardly. That was only one part of my post. And it is valid. I stated that the US also seizes land by imminent domain. Does that make the US communist? You are simply making vague claims. Nor have you made yourself quite clear in your posts. You have made outrageous claims that were proven wrong.

[NinetySix]

60. You do realize...

...that the US government siezed power through a violent overthrow, don't you?

American Revolution (duh!)
Mexican-American War
Spanish-American War
World War II (both Germany and Japan)
Honduras
Panama
Grenada
Iran

As to using threats to stay in power, what has Chavez threatened, and to whom?

[foflappy]

62. Interesting view of history

differs from mine.

[NinetySix]

63. Interesting non-response.

Were the governments of these countries overthrown by agents of the US Government, or not? My point being that we have a long, sordid history of doing just what you indignantly condemn.

[K-W]

68. So you prefer myth over fact?

Our nation was founded by people who used military force to overthrow thier government.

If you disagree with the coup attempts made by Chavez, that is fine, but to suggest that he cannot govern properly because of it flies in the face of American history where the founders of our current government came from a group of people that had used force to overthrow the previous colonial government.

[foflappy]

74. A coup

is different than a war in my book. Of course force was used but not until a declaration had been made.

[K-W]

79. I thought you objected to the use of violence.

Apparently you only object when it helps your argument against Chavez.

[foflappy]

87. only a distiction

I never said I approved of it...reading to much into it now looking for a way to discredit those who disagree.....sad

[K-W]

91. A self-serving hollow destinction.

I never said I approved of it...reading to much into it now looking for a way to discredit those who disagree.....sad

Except that I never claimed you approved of anything so you are making this up.

[Why Syzygy]

90. Please read World History 101

I'm not a history major (should have been a history teacher - meet a lot of interesting men that way :D ) .. but I'm not.

I doubt there is ANY current government on the planet that did not involve some kind of violence to establish.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[foflappy]

118. There are very few

non violent overthrows of government. The issue in the American revolution was one of no representation I believe but of course it is more complicated than that because the revolutionaries were British citizens. I do not feel that the use of force is appropriate in offense a defense is a different matter.

[funnymanpants]

153. nonsense

Now you are just using words in a nonsensical to try to defend the indefensible. This post makes no sense at all.

[Say_What]

128. You mean like the Chilean coup that overthrew Salvador Allende?

Wanna guess at how many coups the US government supported and took direct part in just in LatAm?? About 30...

[katty]

125. Yes, that is the M.O. of the U.S. Government-and how is Iraq

any different?

[morgan2]

123. thats a very narrow view

There are many times when a violent overthrow of a government are necessary. Look at the US revolution, you may say the revolutionary war was unnecessary, but it was definately justified.

[Say_What]

126. You need to read a little about what sovereign countries can and can't do

get yourself an education so you don't look like such a fool.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Dupe. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Yes I know.

Me and Peter Parker.

[Mika]

5. Stagecraft: Chavez = Boogeyman for higher oil prices in the US

The oil co's are making more money producing less for the US. Supply/demand. Why wouldn't they want a "disruption" of supplies?

Chavez is a dream for US big oil profits, just like hurricanes in the Gulf.

[Say_What]

6. As I was driving through one of the Boston areas poorer neighborhoods,

I noticed that Mobile and Gulf were about $2.89 and that Venezuela owned CITGO was $2.74. Looks like Chavez is making good his promise of delivering cheaper gas to the poor.

Buy CITGO!! :hi:

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

9. Also...

... a Citgo station in "West Soo" Sioux Falls, SD (blue collar/lots of apartments area) offers 4 cent discount for cash purchases.

[emald]

7. this will piss off big oil

and GWmonkey. Wonder if he'll decide it's time to "help" democracy flurish in Venezuela? :mad: :mad: :mad:

[slay]

8. Good!

If we are going to rape the earth for oil then everyone in the country should reap the benefits.

[foflappy]

13. unfortunately

this will not be the case. The poor will still be poor and the political prisoners will contiune to rise in numbers. Ahhh the wonders of communism :)

[funnymanpants]

17. no

Venezuela is not a communist country. Chavez was democratically elected.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Why don't you provide a source revealing what political prisoners

there are stashed away in Venezuela?

Hugo Chavez has never been termed a "communist." What's your interest in trying to mislabel him?

[foflappy]

22. Check out Amnesty International

or http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

or http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Venezuela2003eng/toc.htm

I use the term communist because it is where I feel Chavez is taking the country. My opinion and others if you search around.

I just love the "provisional" judges they have there!! Seizing privae property is a good one also...

[Judi Lynn]

25. V crisis is an anti-Chavez site.

With your other source, indicate what it is you're interested in discussing, and get back to us.

Not one person here has the time to pour over reports. There's simply no point.

Find the information you want to discuss, and point it out. It's the right thing to do.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

141. It's kinda like having a squirrel getting into the house!

A whole lot of bouncing off the walls. Never stays in one place long enough to have a responsible exchange. I'm thinking of a drive-by attack from a guy on a unicycle!



Plays fast and loose
with the facts........

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[funnymanpants]

26. Not Amnesty International

Neither of these reports if from Amnesty International.

What are you talking about when you mention "provisional judges" and seizing "private property?"

Further, they don't even come close to showing the country is communist. Your opinion is rather silly. I can call any presidental candiate a "communist" because that's where I think he is taking the country. That is just name calling.

It seems to me you are just dumping a lot of right-wing propaganda on these boards.

[foflappy]

32. Did you read the full report from IAC

did you go to amnesty??

try this one: http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/venezuela?Open

[funnymanpants]

38. What is your point?

Venezueala commits human rights abuses. This is deplorable.

But so does the US! Have you read the Amnesty report on the US?

You have yet to prove your contention that Chavez is a dictator and a communiust. You are just slinging mud.

[foflappy]

44. no need to prove

when it is my opinion. A dictator locks up those who dissent. Just my opinion:)

[funnymanpants]

51. Then your opinion is rather foolish

My opinion is that the sun rises in the west. I know there is proof that it rises in the east, but I don't need to prove it, because it's just my opinion.

In other words, you are making things up on this board, and then trying to hide behind the phrase "Just my opinion."

[foflappy]

86. Where have I made anything up???

Chavez attempted a coup where people died...
His government is accused of abuse..

I see that there are many opinions that can come from looking at the history of Venesuela....facts are only as good as the way they are arranged.

I think that when a government tkes liberties with the law or with property I will disagree with that.


Sorry for having a different opinion than yours but they are based on facts.

[funnymanpants]

152. Here is where

"Where have I made anything up???"

You claimed Chavez is a dictator and a communist. He is neither. He was elected to his office. Communists leaders are not usually elected. That is where you are making things up.

>>facts are only as good as the way they are arranged.

Right. When you get caught lying, you start your cheap philosophy.

Once again, please show me where Chavez is a dictator and where he is a communist. Show me hard proof that he didn't win elections. Show me where he killed people to gain the presidency of Venezuela. Past coups don't count.

[Say_What]

169. Based on facts??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[foflappy]

37. try this one or will you still deny??

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng

Chavez is a dictator.

[funnymanpants]

50. Okay

And here is what it says:

In August the President won a referendum on whether he should serve out the remaining two years of his six-year term. The opposition made allegations of electoral fraud but international observers and electoral authorities confirmed the legitimacy of the result.

Can you read? The elections were valid. He is very popular in Venezuela. Dictators do not get their power through elections.

[foflappy]

57. please read the AI link

and I call him a dictator because he tried to take power by force and he killed....

I can't believe that we in the US would stand for a leader like that..

I just don't trust a person who would murder for political power.

[funnymanpants]

154. You spouting nonsense

I read the whole link.

Notice how specific I was. Now notice how vague you are. You ask if I read the whole link. Yes, I did. Why don't you quote me where Amnesty International states he is a dictator? I will tell you why: because it is nowhere in the report. Once again, you are fabricating.

>>I can't believe that we in the US would stand for a leader like that..

Like what? Once again, another vague claim.

[Judi Lynn]

157. Say_What recognized him. Here's a thread in which he believed himself

to be the poster "Beel2112." He was tossed after a short visit.

He has bragged to his home site, Free Republic about his great skill in being able to elude D.U. moderators. Here's a thread on which he astonished and amazed himself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1576905#1594367

[Bernardo de La Paz]

171. They used to teach history in school. Hitler got his power thru elections.

Hitler was elected.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

58. try this on foflappy...lot more against this one....

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

[foflappy]

71. War detainees are not

the same as citizens. Why is is it that it always has to come back to how evil the US is???


Have you studied the death penalty in Venezuela??

Gitmo is a travesty!! I can't agree with it. The use of tasers is very disturbing and their use on children should be criminal. I can see the need for non leathal force but not at the expense of life that would not have been lost if the taser had not been used.

[funnymanpants]

158. illogical

So if the US is committing human rights abuses like Venizuela, does that make the US a communist country? Does it make Bush a dictator? Because Bush killed people in war (an illegal war), is it accurate to say that Bush "killed people to gain power?"

The answer to all those questions is no. You made a completely illogical argument about Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Here's are some articles you need to scan from Amnesty International

1 USA: Open letter from Amnesty International to Governor George W Bush of Texas concerning the imminent 100th execution under his administration - Amnesty International
Last modified: 6 September 1999

This document gives brief details of those currently on death row awaiting execution in the State of Texas, and asks Governor George Bush to reappraise his stance on the death penalty. It includes...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511461999

2 Germany: The alleged ill-treatment of George B. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 10 February 1998

In this document AI gives details of the allegations of ill-treatment by police officers made by 28-year-old Nigerian George B and is asking for a prompt and impartial investigation into these...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR230021998

3 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern: George Franklin Page - Amnesty International
Last modified: 16 February 2004

George Page is scheduled to be executed in North Carolina at 2am local time on 27 February 2004. He was sentenced to death for the murder of Police Officer Stephen Amos in 1995.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510312004

4 USA (North Carolina): Further Information on Death penalty / Legal concern: George Franklin Page - Amnesty International
Last modified: 27 February 2004

George Page has received a stay of execution. He was due to be put to death in the early hours of 27 February for the murder of Police Officer Stephen Amos in 1995.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510422004

5 USA: Death penalty / Legal concern, George Banks - Amnesty International
Last modified: 24 November 2004

George Banks is scheduled to be executed in Pennsylvania on 2 December 2004. He was sentenced to death in 1983 for the murder of 12 people in 1982, and received a life prison sentence for a 13th m...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511642004

6 Sri Lanka: Fear of safety: W M Sunil Shantha - Amnesty International
Last modified: 14 April 2000

Amnesty International is concerned for the safety of W M Sunil Shantha, a key witness in a trial against a police officer and a civilian charged in connection with the 'disappearance' of six young...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA370082000

7 Sri Lanka: Further information on Fear of safety: W M Sunil Shantha - Amnesty International
Last modified: 8 June 2000

At a court hearing on 30 May 2000, the judge postponed the case of the trial against a press officer and a civilian charged in connection with the 'disappearance' of six young men in December 1989...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA370142000

8 United States of America: Amnesty International's concerns on police abuse in Prince George's County, Maryland. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 29 August 2002

This document outlines continuing areas of concern, and Amnesty International's recommendations to the police, county and federal authorities, regarding persistent complaints of excessive force us...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511262002

9 Canada: The police killing of Dudley George: Eight years on -- many questions remain unanswered - Amnesty International
Last modified: 4 September 2003

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR200032003

10 Canada: Why there must be a public enquiry into the police killing of Dudley George - Amnesty International
Last modified: 4 September 2003

On 6 September 1995, Dudley George, aged 38, became the first Indigenous person known to Amnesty International to be killed in the twentieth century by a police officer in a land claims dispute in...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR200022003

11 United States of America: Letter to President Bush concerning the imminent execution of Napleon Beazley - Amnesty International
Last modified: 6 August 2001

In this letter Amnesty International appeals to President Bush to oppose the execution of Napoleon Beazley, who is due to be put to death in Texas on 15 August 2001.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511122001

12 USA: As President Bush visits China, he should reflect on an execution looming at home - Amnesty International
Last modified: 21 February 2002

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510372002

13 USA: President Bush must act now to stop torture and ill-treatment - Amnesty International
Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/usa-260605-action-eng

14 USA: President Bush must act now to stop torture and ill-treatment - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 January 1970

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/usa-260605-action-eng?open=&action_taken=…

15 USA: Response to President Bush - Amnesty International
Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510872005

16 USA: Death and the President - Amnesty International
Last modified: 22 December 2003

President George W. Bush's record on this cruel and brutalizing policy is well known. Although he has held the power of executive reprieve for only a short part of the last quarter of a century, a...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511582003

17 Saudi Arabia: Further information on fear of torture/Incommunicado detention - Amnesty International
Last modified: 28 September 2000

George Joseph was reportedly deported to India on 23 September. An Indian national working in Saudi Arabia, George Joseph was reportedly arrested and held in incommunicado detention. Amnesty Inter...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE230772000

18 USA: Texas set to execute mentally disabled man as it heads for judicial killing record - Amnesty International
Last modified: 15 November 2000

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511752000

19 USA (Texas): Further information on death Penalty: Betty Lou Beets - Amnesty International
Last modified: 25 February 2000

Betty Lou Beets was executed in Texas on 24 February 2000, two weeks before her 63rd birthday. She leaves five children, nine grandchildren and six great-grandchildren. She made no final statement...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510352000

20 USA (Florida): Further information on death penalty - Amnesty International
Last modified: 27 January 2000

On 26 January 2000, less than two weeks after the Florida legislature voted to introduce lethal injection as an execution method, Governor Jeb Bush ordered the executions of Terry Sims and Anthony...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510162000

Third page on George W. Bush is locked, unavailable at the moment....


1 Bolivia: New open letter to all Honourable Deputies of the Bolivian National Congress urging them to reject the bilateral agreement with the United States on the International Crime Court - Amnesty International
Last modified: 18 May 2004

In this letter, Amnesty International urges all Honourable Deputies to refuse to sign the bilateral immunity agreement signed by the Government and the United States of America in May last year, s...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR180022004

2 United States of America: A killing that no respectable government can condone. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 4 March 2003

Scott Allen Hain, one of about 80 child offenders on death row in the USA, is scheduled to be killed in Oklahoma's lethal injection chamber on 3 April 2003 for a crime committed when he was 17 yea...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510332003

3 United States of America: The threat of a bad example: Undermining international standards as "war on terror" detentions continue - Amnesty International
Last modified: 19 August 2003

Thousands of people have been detained worldwide in the context of the 'war on terror' announced by President Bush after the attacks in the USA of 11 September 2001. Since the atrocities of that d...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511142003

4 International Criminal Court: Concerns at the first meeting of the Assembly of States Parties, 3 - 10 September 2002. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 2 September 2002

The first session of the Assembly of States Parties will take place at the United Nations (UN) Headquarters in New York from 3-10 September 2002 : an historic event and testament to the commitment...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR400272002

5 International Criminal Court: Concerns at the resumed first session of the Assembly of States Parties (3 to 7 February 2003) - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 January 2003

The resumed first session of the Assembly of States Parties (Assembly) will take place at the United Nations (UN) Headquarters in New York from 3 to 7 February 2003. The main focus of this session...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR400012003

6 International Criminal Court: Concerns at the second resumed first session of the Assembly of States Parties (21 to 23 April 2003). - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 April 2003

This document raises Amnesty International's concerns for the forthcoming second resumed first session of the Assembly of States Parties (Assembly), which will take place at the United Nations (UN...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR400032003

7 Open letter to participants of CARICOM meeting urging rejection of impunity agreements with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court - Amnesty International
Last modified: 7 May 2003

This week the Ministers of Foreign Affairs from the Caribbean Community will meet to consider requests from the United States of America to enter into bilateral agreements not to surrender US nati...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR050022003

8 Albania: Open letter to members of the Albanian Parliament urging rejection of the impunity agreement with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 7 May 2003

Amnesty International is concerned that on 2 May 2003 the Government of Albania signed a bilateral agreement with the Government of the United States of America which would oblige the government n...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR110032003

9 United States of America: Hypocrisy or human rights? Time to choose - Amnesty International
Last modified: 15 May 2002

This document calls for a presidential clemency appeal in the case of Napoleon Beazley, an African American facing execution on the 28th May, for a crime committed at the age of 17.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510752002

10 United States of America (Texas): Further Information on Death penalty / Legal concern, Delma Banks. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 25 February 2004

On 24 February 2004 the US Supreme Court overturned Delma Banks's death sentence after concluding that he was denied a fair trial because the state failed to disclose key evidence. Delma Banks had...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510382004

11 United States of America: An open letter to President bill Clinton as the first federal executon looms - Amnesty International
Last modified: 14 November 2000

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511642000

12 United States of America: Open letter to the President on the death penalty (includes correction) - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 January 1994

In this open letter to the President of the United States of America, AI sets out its concerns about the use of the death penalty in the USA as follows: disproportionate imposition of death senten...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510011994

13 Sierra Leone: Open letter to the President of Sierra Leone urging rejection of the impunity agreement with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court - Amnesty International
Last modified: 8 May 2003

This letter to the President of Sierra Leone to expresses Amnesty International's dismay at the news that Sierra Leone was the first parliament in the world to ratify a bilateral impunity agreemen...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAFR510032003

14 United States of America: Human rights v. public relations - Amnesty International
Last modified: 24 August 2002

Drawing upon a recent report sponsored by the non-partisan US think tank, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Amnesty International highlights the need for the USA to move beyond public relati...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511402002

15 Open letter to the President of Sierra Leone urging rejection of the impunity agreement with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 8 May 2003

In this open letter Amnesty International urges the President of Sierra Leone not to consent to the impunity agreement with the United States government, as this agreement will not oblige Sierra L...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGIOR400112003

16 United States of America: Too young to vote, old enough to be executed: Texas set to kill another child offender - Amnesty International
Last modified: 31 July 2001

This report focuses on the case of Napoleon Beazley, on death row and facing execution on 15 August 2001, for a murder committed when he was aged 17. Appendices to this report include a list of ch...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511052001

17 United States of America: Time to reject the culture of death - Amnesty International
Last modified: 20 November 2001

Since the 11 September attacks President George Bush has made numerous references to 'civilization', and yet there has been little sign that the USA intends to reevaluate its relationship with jud...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511682001

18 United States of America: Wrong turn: An International perspective on the 30th anniversary of Furman v Georgia - Amnesty International
Last modified: 27 June 2002

This document calls upon US officials to reconsider the death penalty and join the global abolitionist trend, in the light of the 30th anniversary of the Furman v Georgia decision.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511022002

19 United States of America: To err is human; to abolish is demanded - Amnesty International
Last modified: 3 July 2002

A recent ruling from US District Court Judge Jed Rakoff included the statement that the death penalty 'is tantamount to foreseeable, state-sponsored murder of innocent human beings'. This judicial...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511102002

20 Bulgaria: Open letter to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria urging rejection of the impunity agreement with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 13 May 2003

Amnesty International is concerned by reports that the United States of America is putting intense pressure on the government of Bulgaria to enter into a bilateral agreement committing not to surr...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR150042003

21 United States of America (Florida): Legal concern, Lionel Tate. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 18 February 2003

Two years after Lionel Tate began a sentence of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for a crime committed when he was 12 years old, his lawyers are about to seek clemency for him f...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510272003

22 United States of America: Wrong 800 times - Amnesty International
Last modified: 20 September 2002

On 24 September, if all goes according to schedule, a human being will be taken from his cell, strapped down and killed by government employees in President Bush's home state of Texas. It will be ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511522002

23 United States of America (Maryland): Further information on death penalty, Steven Howard Oken. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 20 February 2003

Steven Oken has received an indefinite stay of execution from the Maryland Court of Appeals. The Court has scheduled a hearing in May 2003 to consider a challenge to the state's death penalty law ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510292003

24 Georgia: Open Letter to the President of Georgia urging rejection of the impunity agreement with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court. - Amnesty International
Last modified: 13 May 2003

Amnesty International is dismayed to hear that on 7 May 2003 the Parliament of Georgia was the second parliament in the world to ratify a bilateral impunity agreement with the United States of Ame...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR560012003

25 United States of America: Letter to Fulton County District Attorney concerning the forthcoming death penalty trial of Jamil Al-Amin in Atlanta, Georgia - Amnesty International
Last modified: 12 December 2001

In this letter Amnesty International expresses concern over possible anti-Islamic sentiment in the forthcoming murder trial of Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, in which the prosecution intends to seek the ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511792001

1 USA: Osvaldo Torres, Mexican national denied consular rights, scheduled to die - Amnesty International
Last modified: 2 April 2004

This report discusses the International Court of Justice (ICJ) judgment on a lawsuit brought by Mexico on behalf of its nationals arrested by hte USA. The ICJ decision was handed down on 31 March ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510572004

2 USA: USA to confirm its position as world leader in killing child offenders - Amnesty International
Last modified: 21 January 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510101999

3 USA : Human rights in the USA: World leader in high tech repression - Amnesty International
Last modified: 22 September 1998

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510671998

4 USA (Texas): Death penalty / Legal concern, Gerald Lee Mitchell - Amnesty International
Last modified: 5 September 2001

Gerald Mitchell is scheduled to be executed in Texas on 22 October 2001 for a murder committed when he was aged 17. International law prohibits the death penalty against people who were under 18 a...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511332001

5 USA: Shame in the 21st century : Three child offenders scheduled for execution in January 2000 - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 December 1999

This report examines the issue of the USA's use of the death penalty against child offenders. It focuses on three cases - Christopher Thomas, Steve Edward Roach and Glen Charles McGinnis - who are...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511891999

6 USA: Legal concern/Impunity UN Security Council: No double standards on international justice - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 July 2002

The USA vetoed the extension of the UN Mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina (UNMIBH) at the UN Security Council on 30 June. This was because the USA did not get immunity for its personnel from the ju...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511042002

7 USA - Amnesty International
Last modified: 3 June 2003

This is the Amnesty International Report 2003 entry for the United States of America. The Amnesty International Report 2003 documents human rights abuses in 151 countries and territories during 20...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/usa-summary-eng

8 USA: From Alabama to Wyoming: 50 counts of double standards - the missing entries in the US report on human rights - Amnesty International
Last modified: 25 February 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510331999

9 USA: Open letter from Amnesty International to president Clinton, the leaders of the US Senate, and the chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, concerning the imminent execution of Sean Sellers in Oklahoma - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 February 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510201999

10 USA: UN Committee Against Torture: Recommendations and conclusions on the USA's first periodic report - Amnesty International
Last modified: 15 May 2000

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510702000

11 USA: A pick-and-choose approach to human rights - Amnesty International
Last modified: 22 September 1998

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510681998

12 USA: On the wrong side of history: Children and the death penalty in the USA - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 October 1998

This document examines the application of the death penalty to juvenile offenders in the USA, in the context of international law and other related issues. It contains several detailed illustrativ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510581998

13 USA: Rights for all: Human rights in the USA - issued as Focus with AI News November 1998 - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 October 1998

This document summarises the shortfalls in human rights standards in the USA. It mentions in particular discrimination against many sectors of society, the US' reluctance to commit to internationa...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510541998

14 USA: Incommunicado detention/Fear of ill-treatment: Riduan Isamuddin aka Hambali - Amnesty International
Last modified: 20 August 2003

On 11 August, Riduan Isamuddin aka Hambali, alleged to be the operations chief of Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), a Southeast Asian extremist Islamic group, with suspected links to al-Qa'ida, was arrested ...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511192003

15 USA (Texas): Further information on: Death penalty - Amnesty International
Last modified: 19 November 2004

Demarco McCullum, Frederick McWilliams and Anthony Fuentes were executed in Texas on 9, 10 and 17 November respectively.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511622004

16 USA - The Wire - March2003 - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 March 2003

Amnesty International - The Wire - AI's monthly magazine for people interested in human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/wire/March2003/usa

17 USA: John paul II's visit: An opportunity for the USA to reflect on its human rights record - Amnesty International
Last modified: 25 January 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510051999

18 USA: Oklahoma: Child offender to be killed next week - Amnesty International
Last modified: 28 January 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510161999

19 USA: Supreme Court's refusal to consider the international ban on the death penalty against children - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 November 1999

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511781999

20 USA: Rights for all: Human rights in the United States of America - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 October 1998

This briefing outlines the context of Amnesty International's USA Campaign and highlights the main issues such as police brutality, torture and ill-treatment and the death penalty.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510401998

Showing results: 21-25 out of 25 ( sort by date )

21 Will the USA execute Angel Francisco Breard in defiance of the International Court of Justice? - Amnesty International
Last modified: 9 April 1998

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510251998

22 USA: 1999 UN Commission on Human Rights: Making human rights work: time to strengthen the special procedures: Appeal cases USA - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 March 1999

This is a summary of AI's concerns in the USA which it wishes to see raised at the 55th session of the UN Commission on Human Rights taking place in Geneva from 22 March to 30 April 1999. Particul...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510181999

23 USA: Rights for All - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 October 1998

This report, produced as part of Amnesty International's USA campaign, details the widespread pattern of human rights violations that exists in the USA. It points to entrenched and nationwide poli...

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510351998

24 USA: The conveyor belt of death continues - 500th execution looms in the USA - Amnesty International
Last modified: 3 December 1998

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510981998

25 United States of America: Rights for all: Program for action on human rights in the USA - Amnesty International
Last modified: 1 August 1998

This document is a short campaigning version of the full list of recommendations to the USA government which appear in AI campaign report, USA: Rights for all

URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510511998

[foflappy]

76. OK But is off the topic

I thought we were discussing Chavez. I won't argue that the US does some shitty things I just do not understand the love afair that soem have with Chavez.

[funnymanpants]

156. No, not off topic

If the US is guilty of human rights abuse, that must mean that Bush is a dictator according to your logic. It must mean that we shouldn't stand for him as a leader. It must mean he's a communist, given the logic of your posts.

I have a lot of problems with Bush's policies. But it is rather foolish to claim he is a communist because of human rights abuses.

[Say_What]

129. VCRISIS???? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

the resident UK golpista!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:spank:

[NinetySix]

28. Have you been paying attention?

Chavez is, first of all, no Communist. The land reforms he has instituted in Venezuela are very similar to the land reforms instituted by the occupation government in Japan headed by MacArthur at the end of WWII. The nationalization of Venezuelan oil fields is certain to be watched carefully by other South American nations, many of whom are themselves already beneficiaries of Chavez' newly instituted energy policy, which specifically provides fuel to their respective citizens at reduced cost. Further, Chavez has already moved to provide low-income citizens of the United States with gasoline at a lower price.

Communist?!? You'll do well to watch the man and learn the lessons of POPULISM



edit:sp

[foflappy]

35. try this one

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng

[NinetySix]

46. Do you ever reply to a response?

Or is supplying an unending stream of links your idea of debate? Clearly, I have no intention of refering to your thread without having some idea of its relevance. If you think something at that web site is pertinent to our discussion, by all means, provide a link following a brief summary of its content.

[foflappy]

53. Very sorry..a excerpt from the posted AI link.

Political polarization continued to destabilize Venezuela. There were violent confrontations between supporters of the opposition and the security forces throughout the country. Scores of people were killed and injured. Hundreds more were detained amid allegations of excessive use of force and torture and ill-treatment. There were reports of unlawful killings of criminal suspects. Relatives and those who witnessed abuses were threatened and intimidated. The lack of independence of the judiciary remained a concern. Attempts were made to undermine the legitimacy of the work of human rights defenders.

[Say_What]

138. Reads very much like 1973 Chile when the US was financing and supporting

the 'opposition' who claimed that Allende was taking Chile toward 'communism' just like you claimed in one of your posts. Everything was blamed on Allende and his 'failed' socialist experiment, when in fact it was engineered by the USSA and Patria y Libertad.

No doubt you supported Pinochet too.

BTW, the USSA is doing the very same thing in Venezuela--supporting the 'opposition' with unlimited $$$$ and doing everything in its power to get rid of democratically elected Chavez. The propaganda in the MSM from the 1970s could replace 'Chile' with Venezuela and 'Allende' with Chavez and it would be the same old shit.

[Say_What]

144. MSM, Allende's Chile, and Venezuela

Check out the similarities in propaganda between Allende's Chile and Chavez' Venezuela. Same propaganda different democratically elected leader.

<clips>

...The press's record on Chile during the Allende years and the days following the 1973 coup is particularly appalling. In the Bay Area, the San Francisco Examiner editorialized two days after the coup: "Salvador Allende's attempt to turn Chile into a Marxist society has now reached its tragic conclusion with death for Allende and a legacy of violence, deprivation, and military rule for the Chilean people" (9/13/73). The Examiner attributed Allende's overthrow largely to a "succession of middle-class strikes," and didn't even mention the sustained opposition of the Nixon administration. The San Francisco Chronicle was a bit less biased in its editorial on the coup, noting simply that Allende's "mercurial, socialist government" was brought "to a sudden and violent end" by a "military junta" (9/12/73). However, this editorial also failed to mention any U.S. role in toppling Allende, while giving prominence to the alleged opposition of the "middle class."

During the Allende years, from 1970 to 1973, the U.S. press did run articles on the Nixon administration's activities opposing the Popular Unity government. For example, in 1972, most newspapers gave prominent play to documents leaked from the files of corporate giant IT&T that discussed efforts by the CIA and U.S. corporations to prevent Allende from even taking office in 1970. But by and large the mainstream press failed to provide a cogent analysis or a sustained critique of U.S. efforts to destabilize and topple the Allende government. That task was taken up by the alternative press.

...Although the alternative press systematically documented U.S. activities against Allende, neither local mainstream dailies nor national publications gave these reports any credence. The New York Times, in an editorial entitled "The Chilean Tragedy," declared: "There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of American complicity in the coup." It went on to assert that "Washington had only the most peripheral responsibility in the downfall of Dr. Allende," labeling the IT&T documents "bizarre" and not reflective of Nixon administration policy (9/16/73). The editorial argued that "Dr. Allende's experiment failed because his Popular Unity coalition, dominated by Socialists and Communists, persisted with an effort to fasten on Chile a drastic socialist system."

The belief that it was the Allende government's policies that caused his downfall became widespread, enduring to this day even among some socialists in Chile. The arrest of Pinochet provides an opportunity to correct this false historic consciousness created by the mainstream media. The real tragedy of Allende and his Popular Unity government is that the most democratic experiment in socialism ever undertaken in the Western Hemisphere was destroyed, not by unsound economic or social policies, but by the hostile actions of the Nixon administration and U.S. multinational corporations, which provided critical support to the Chilean right wing and military coup leaders.

http://www.media-alliance.org/article.php?story=20040514015918249

[tkmorris]

112. Wow

Chavez is accomplishing amazing things for the poor of Venezuela. I can only assume that you are getting REALLY bad information from somewhere. Please. Investigate for yourself.

[IndianaGreen]

120. The bogeyman of communism doesn't frighten anyone anymore!

Bush's imperialism and capitalism is what everyone fears.

George W. Bush has made Karl Marx relevant again, and with a vengeance!

[Say_What]

10. Venezuela to Create State Owned Steel Company

Mining, Venezuela's second major industry after oil.

<clips>

Caracas, Venezuela, September 26, 2005—Venezuela’s President Chavez announced on Sunday night that a new state-owned steel and iron processing company will be created with money taken from the country’s extensive foreign currency reserves.

Chavez stated that the purpose of the company is to create employment and manage the nation's resources, "efficiently and with responsibility." Chavez made the announcement during a screening of his weekly TV program, Aló Presidente. He also stated that the nation’s currency reserves are now $32.5 billion. From this amount, the government plans to spend $1 billion on funding the new steel project.

Venezuela used to own a steel processing company, SIDOR, but which was largely privatized in 1997, a year before Chavez came into office.

This new initiative comes after last week's declaration that mining concessions will no longer be provided to either foreign or national private mining companies and that Venezuela would also create a new state-owned mining company. Speaking on Aló Presidente, Chavez said, "We decided to revoke mining concessions to reorganize the conduct of these resources."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1767

[Judi Lynn]

11. South American nations agree to work for energy integration

UPDATED: 12:31, September 27, 2005
South American nations agree to work for energy integration

Member states of the South American Community of Nations (CSN) agreed to work together for energy integration in the region, Venezuelan Energy and Petroleum Minister Rafael Ramirez said on Monday.

At the closing ceremony of the one-day Energy Ministers' meeting of the CSN, Ramirez said the ministers agreed to set up a joint oil corporation to develop the potential of the energy industry in the region and promote cooperation and mutual complementarity between the CSN members.

The CSN could be driven by the powerful energy integration, said Venezuelan Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez Araque, adding that economic development is unconceivable without energy.

Rodriguez said "all the countries of the region have important energy sources, which is a matter of elementary logics for our countries to design an energy-integration policy."
(snip/...)

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200509/27/eng20050927_211171.html

[foflappy]

12. Why do so many at DU

fall all over themselves supporting Chavez??

I think it is because many have not looked at the history of Venezuela.

Check out some history and look into who this Chavez is. In your rush to find those who are against the US don't align yourselves with a man like Chavez. It makes you look bad.

A dictator is a dictator. Even Bush didn't murder to get his power (at least I don't think so!)

[Judi Lynn]

16. Why don't you provide links to your charge Chavez murdered to become

the elected President of Venezuela?

The responsibility is on YOUR shoulders to show that proof.

[foflappy]

24. ok

"The February revolt by members of the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement claimed 18 lives and left 60 injured before Mr Chavez gave himself up."

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3517106.stm

There are many other sources to find out more about Chavez's failed coup...Why not take the time to learn more and to look into his election fraud..

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foflappy]

39. Amnesty Int. a right wing group?????

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng

[funnymanpants]

43. No!

Good grief, please go back to your right wing sites.

No, Amnesty Internaional is not a right-wing group.

You provided at least one link that was a right wing web site.

More important, you are making foolish claims that Chavez is a dicatora and a communist, and have yet to give one shred of evidence backing that up. I and others have given evidence that Chavez was democratically elected.

Are you going to back up your claims or not? Or are you going to present arguments that have nothing to do with your claims?

[foflappy]

59. who is to say

what is right wing or left wing??? I have made it clear that the direction that Chavez is headign seams communist (seizing land, production, extra judicial powers etc..)

[Why Syzygy]

103. Some people on this forum

are "communists", "socialists", etc. And what is your stance?

[funnymanpants]

159. You have done no such thing

>>I have made it clear that the direction that Chavez is headign seams communist

Well, this is certainly a change from before! Before he killed people to gain power, was a communist and a dictator. You conjured up the image of Stalin. Now he just "seems" to be pushing the country in the wrong direction.

No, you hven't made yourself clear at all. You make one or two line inflamatory comments that you can't back up.

[Judi Lynn]

36. The election was monitored by tons of international observers.

We are well aware of that. Jimmy Carter was one of them, and he gave the entire affair a clean bill of health. (He would also be prone to sway his remarks in favor of the opposition, if he were going to go dirty, as one of his own friends is Gustavo Cisneros, whom DU'ers know is a wildly wealthy multi-media owner in Venezuela, and a friend of the American right-wing.)

We also are aware that the voting machines are transparent, can be read, check, analyzed. "Open source." We were never lucky enough in the States to have the same CLEAN machines working for us.

As for your article, the author of your article have it a hard-right twist. We've seen it here already. It's pathetic. I can't believe you expect it to serve as any kind of resource. Here's something you might find useful, it's a brief timeline from the same organization which published your article, and it has a little more information to offer:

Democratic rule

1958 - Admiral Wolfgang Larrazabal ousts Marcos Perez Jimenez; leftist Romulo Betancourt of the Democratic Action Party (AD) wins democratic presidential election.

1960 - Movement of the Revolutionary Left splits from AD and commences anti-government work.

1964 - Venezuela's first presidential handover from one civilian to another takes place when Dr Raul Leoni (AD) is elected president.

Boom and bust

1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez was jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1229348.stm

[bpilgrim]

41. An attempted coup in 2002 (against Mr. Chavez) foundered within 48 hours.

funded by the U.S. (before it's successful coup in HATI)

Mr. Chavez was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED overwhelmingly for his current post, TWICE, yet the ELITE there will stop at NOTHING to smear him and his supporters.

we on DU have lots of info on whats happening there in our archives and I'm sure many who are very informed on the situation will chime in to help with your narrow, M$M programmed, neo-liberal view.

welcome to DU :hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

30. Bush and his cronies are the biggest MASS MURDERERS on the PLANET today

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[foflappy]

40. who told you that?? The easter bunny

you are joking right??

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foflappy]

48. Because I do not like Chavez

and I post links to Amnesty Int to prove my point????

I surely hope not!!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foflappy]

61. Because my opinions differ from yours

and I do support my claim of human rights abuse I am dishonest??

I just think that CHavez is a scum who tried to gaiun power by killing and now he is 'elected' I don't trust him. I am sorry if I call state seizure of land and production to communist. I am sorry if I do not like a leader who gives unconstitutional authority to 'judges'.

Why is it wqrong to not like Chavez??

[bpilgrim]

64. spouting the neo-liberal lie wont go far on DU

like it or not, he is popular democratically elected leader of their nation and they have a RIGHT to RULE as they see most fit in supporting the welfare of their citizens no matter what FAUX says.

fyi

peace

[foflappy]

67. What is neo-liberal???

I am not sure what this is. If you mean fox I can't stomach it. By chance have you ever spoken with someone from venezuela or been there?

[bpilgrim]

73. stick around

you'll learn more about it... use the search at the top of the page if you don't want to wait or google it + chomsky

:hi:

peace

[foflappy]

84. I'd likje to hear what you think it is

please.

[bpilgrim]

89. in a nut-shell it is simply PROFIT-over-PEOPLE

and lies behind most of our recent, 60 year, foreign policy both monetary and military.

peace

[foflappy]

113. I agree with your definition...

That is an unfortunate concept that has sprung from capitalism. Funny thing is I find it odd that me, a person who has been involved in alternative trade/fair trade, would be branded a neo liberal (or at least accused of towing a neo liberal line) I have worked with workers cooperatives around the world and continue to fight for economic opportunity as a means to fight poverty. I have directed funds to cooperatives in central america and south america and the non profit ato I work for deals with over 35 countries arounf the world.

I am attending the FTF fair trade federation conference in Chicago IL this coming weekend. I speak publicly about fair trade and workers rights and I fin dit odd that I am a neo liberal because that is what I fight against.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

93. Basically, the usual right-wing anti-poor ideology

only without the religious fundamentalism component, and sugarcoated with some novel-sounding rhetoric.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. No, because you edit and cherry-pick to make your argument.

The fact that he has won election after election, all highly scrutinized with no resulting evidence of wrongdoing, seems to not register in your brain at all.

You cling to vague "thinks look bad" and "there are reports of..." sentences in the AI report while trying to hide the most clearly stated fact -- that the elections were legitimate and Venezuela is a democracy.

People here can see right through you, and NO amount of sugarcoating and smooth-talking will change that. In other words: you failed.

[foflappy]

75. Who here does not pick and

choose their "facts" to support their case?? I have no quarrel with the elections part. I do not agree with th eway things are run by him.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Nice backpedaling.

"I do not agree with the way things are run by him." vs. "He is a dictator."

[foflappy]

88. A dictator takes extra constitutial power

which he has done:

"Political polarization continued to destabilize Venezuela. There were violent confrontations between supporters of the opposition and the security forces throughout the country. Scores of people were killed and injured. Hundreds more were detained amid allegations of excessive use of force and torture and ill-treatment. There were reports of unlawful killings of criminal suspects. Relatives and those who witnessed abuses were threatened and intimidated. The lack of independence of the judiciary remained a concern. Attempts were made to undermine the legitimacy of the work of human rights defenders."

yes he is a dictator in my book

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. Vague. All of those could be said of Bush.

I assume you believe Bush is a dictator too, from these criteria.

[foflappy]

101. Vauge???????

did bush kill in an attempt to gain power?? I do not belive so
did he take extra constitutional powers? Maybe, I am not convinced that the supream court should have ruled in the elections.

I do not think that Bush is any more dictator than any other president that we have had.

Bush does make very poor descisions and tries to get around the law through decree but I don't think that it is extraconstitutional.

Talk about changing the subject....I thought we were talking about Chavez.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. Thank you.

Now all my doubts are answered.

[Why Syzygy]

109. LOL!

You had a doubt? :rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

117. Not really

But I like having hard evidence.

[funnymanpants]

160. Yes, very vague

>>I do not think that Bush is any more dictator than any other president that we have had.

What is that supposed to mean? Is he a dictator or not? Is he as bad as Chavez? Did Chavez start an illegal war that killed as many as 100,000 people?

And no, this is not changing the topic. If you think Chavez is a dictator, then you must think Geroge Bush is also a dictator.

[Why Syzygy]

107. Bypassing the US Senate

to seat judges. George W. did that. Is he a "dictator" too?

[funnymanpants]

149. Will you continue to spout nonsense?

No, not because you think Chavez is scum. You stated he was a dictator and have yet to back that claim up. Bascially, you are making things up as you go along. When I and others pointed out Chavez is not a dictator nor a communist, you switched the argument to human rights abuses.

That is what is dishonest. When you were proven wrong, you said "well, that's just my opinion."

Why don't you just admit you are wrong rather than making wrong and misleading claims?

Your post here is no different. He killed people to gain power? Well, so did George Washington! You failed to mention and still can't accept that Chavez was easily elected. As far as seizing lands, you have yet to show what context this was done. In fact, you have yet to show anything. You make outrageous claims and then provide links that contradict your claims.

[Why Syzygy]

106. Like we don't know one when we see one.

They think we're stupid. Just like George and Dick do.

[bpilgrim]

45. I am as serious as a heart attack

they are currently engaged in an ILLEGAL and IMMORAL WAR, including RAPE & TORTURE of CHILDREN in front of their MOTHERS in the ME in case you haven't noticed.

what do you think the rest of the world thinks about our current CRIMINAL, MURDEROUS, regime?

start with the Nuremberg transcripts to get our view in the international community.

peace

[foflappy]

52. I agree that the US is engaging

in an illegal act and that ther are cases of abuse and turture and that should not be tolerated. I do not belive in degrees of evil if you take away one persons right or take away 100 it is the same to me. I do not like what is going on in Venezuela nor do I like what is going on in the US.

[bpilgrim]

55. who told you that? the Easter Bunny?

more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

get your FACTS straight before you start your kamikaze dive on DU ;->

peace

[foflappy]

69. Facts are in the eye of the beholder

unfortunatly it is hard to parse the truth out of a pile of facts because most things are complex to the point of distraction. I try and I am always looking for new "facts"

Interesting that it is considered Kamakazee to disagree here at DU. I guess I didn't read the official opinion paper for DU.

Progessives don't always obey ;)

[bpilgrim]

77. you speak from ignorance yet have the ego to spout the M$M line

at the same time.

it is not about disagreeing it is about knowing the history and the current events.

you call him a dictator and a murderer to gain office which are both untrue, not to mention chastise DU'ers as being ignorant, knee jerk, followers, so you are going to be called on it. it really is as simple as that.

most of us here are FED-UP with the M$M & neo-liberal lies programmed into our daily lives 24/7/365 and are quick to point them out when they come up.

peace

[foflappy]

94. so you do not believe

that he lead a coup that failed but killed people?

You do not believe AI in saying that the government of Chavez has taken liberty with human rights (what a dictator does)

what the heck is M$M and neo liberal and how are we programmed??

[Outrider]

100. Name a country that hasn't

Amnesty International lists problems with all nations. Nobody is perfect, and many western nations have worse problems then Venezula.

[Why Syzygy]

111. M$M = Main Stream Media

It might not hurt, if you want to stick around, to go ahead and take a seat and read a bit before starting flame wars. Listen and learn.

[tkmorris]

133. Do you know who he was trying to oust or why?

Sometimes, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for a people to sever the ties that bind.......

Revolution is a bloody solution, and not one to be entered into lightly. Nonetheless it one that most of us agree is sometimes needed. On rare occasions people are pushed so far that they are willing to give their lives, or take the lives of their oppressors, in order to create a better reality for their children. Our nation itself was born in this way, as you well know.

The government of any nation has to weigh the rights of some peoples against the rights of others. There is no moral absolute, it is always seemingly a choice between the lesser of two evils.

Chavez' every move has been for the greater good of the citizens of Venezuela, primarily the poor. These people have suffered so much, and for so long, it is difficult for me to imagine the motivation of a person who would argue against the reforms instituted which have helped them. Schools? Health care? You are against these things?

Venezuela and its resources belong to the people of Venezuela. For too long the poorest amomg them have gone hungry while food grown in Venezuela was shipped of to Europe, or worse still the land which could have fed the people lay fallow. The oil which lies under Venezuela has been pumped out to profit...... foreign oil companies. Prior Venezuelan governments negotiated agreements that benefitted themselves and those oil companies but provided little profit to the citizens of Venezuela.

Chavez is changing all of that. No longer do foreign countries have the "right" to profiteer off of Venezuelan resources while half of the country lives in the most most squalid conditions. You may call that communism if you wish, to me it looks more like democratic socialism. Either way, I am enthusiastically in favor of it, and apparently so are the good people of Venezuela.

[foflappy]

142. I will disagree with the methods

used and where has the reform gotten the poor?

[1932]

145. Amartya Sen says that development should be measured by increasing freedom

Such as education (literacy and numeracy), health care, life expectancy, opportunity to express one's self politically, and employment, in addtion to traditional (but deceptive) measures like income and GNP.

By every measure, Chavez has made things much better for the poor. Development as Freedom is like the Bolivarian Revolution's blueprint.

Chavez has reduced illiteracy, built schools, has given the barrios doctors for the first time ever, and has devolved political power to the people. Unemployment is down from a peek of over 20% during the right-wing strikes to just above 10% about two months ago and looks like it's continuing to trend downwards. GNP is up too. So even by traditional measures, Venezuela is doing well.

In iTunes, subscribe to DemocracyNow! and listen to the two Chavez interviews -- in one of the two he descrives a project he initiated last week where neighborhood organizations are getting money to undertake projects for their communiities -- it's the perfect example of devolution of political power, and it's EXACTLY what Amartya Sen talks about when he says that political power is a freedom that makes life better for people.

[Say_What]

147. Here's the link to the DN interview...

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1558

[Say_What]

146. Since you *claim* to know so much about Venezuela, but fail to provide

any credible information, how about *you* tell *us* what Chavez has or hasn't done for the poor.

Go ahead, enlighten us. :sarcasm:

[NinetySix]

78. Facts are in the eye of the beholder?

Facts are not subjective judgements, like whether Star Wars Episode III rocked or blew. Opinions certainly are in the eye of the beholder, but that is because they are a step down the epistemological ladder. Facts are nakedly objective precisely because they are prior to interpretation.

Or are you a solipsist?

[foflappy]

99. Yes facts are

subjective in the way they are arranged to provide a POV. A fact is a fact but when a fact is used in a way to prove a point that, by default, is more complicated than that fact it is used in a subjective way.

"A man walks into a store and takes some food without paying for it"

man=fact
walks=fact
takes food=fact
does not pay=fact

looks simple but what if there are more facts like

starving family=fact
or
he shot the clerk=fact


We make judgements based on facts but if we are missing facts we may judge things differently than if we know more.

When we argue we use facts to prove our opinion. Simple facts are facts until we use them to argue or form an opinion

[Solon]

97. You are no progressive...

First off, those land seizures are done against neglectful FOREIGN owners, namely a British Lord, who's hated over in Great Britain, last I heard, forgot his name though. Second, the oil fields belong to the nation first, ever heard of national security, and we can all agree that any national government should control their own VITAL national resources, especially against FOREIGN investors. Also, to bring up the Amnesty link, a couple of things, the prosecutor of the coup plotters of 2002 was blown up(wonder by whom?). Much of the violence WAS instigated by the rich right wing in that nation, but some also from Chavez supporters. Guess what, that IS normal, when ANY large group of people run into another group they don't like, there are ALWAYS going to be fists thrown etc. However, even given that, at least Chavez people didn't seize an elected government illegally, and actually do widespread oppression. Police overreactions happen all the time, around the world, and to be honest, I'm surprised at the RESTRAINT of the police over there, compared to the WTO Protests in Seattle, Cincinnati, or London, recently. Remember, in the USA, GB and Australia now, being brown is a crime with a penalty of death or indefinite detention, pick one.

[foflappy]

105. Interesting post

but what does it have to do with being progressive??

Where is it illegal to be brown??? Please show soem proof of thsi wild accusation.

[Solon]

130. I was being a little sarcastic...

However, look up police shootings of black people in Cincinnati, along with the shooting of the Brazilian man in London recently, AFTER he was held down, BOOM, BOOOM, BOOOM, BOOOOM, BOOM, BOOM, 6 in the back of the head. I think that's the count, anyways it doesn't matter, he was shot and killed for being a brown man in a city with shoot to kill orders for those who look like him, big scandal.

[Judi Lynn]

115. .You addressed many points very efficiently.

It's a delight seeing it accomplished in this one-man food fight!

I had to mention the name of the landowner from Great Britain:
Lord "Spam" Vestey.

Got ambitious enough to go look for his photo, having never seen it:



I just learned the following:

Other countries in South America experienced land reform in the 1960s with rich landowners relinquishing their big farms.


Now Venezuela's time has come. The first peasant farmers moved here four years ago.
(snip)

In a country where less than 5% of the population owns 80% of the land, it was Venezuela's poor who voted him into the Presidential palace.
(snip)

Eighty-three per cent of Venezuelans live below the poverty line.
(snip)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[Solon]

132. I can retain quite a bit of information in my head, surprisingly...

Weak points are dates and NAMES, thanks for the reminder, he looks like the typical oligarch, doesn't he?

[funnymanpants]

161. Oh really?

>>Facts are in the eye of the beholder

Oh really? So objects don't fall to earth at 32 feet per second square? And Columbus didn't come to American in 1492? And Hitler wasn't a dictator and fascism was good for mankind?

We are not attacking you because you have a different opinion. We are attacking you because you make inflamatory comments and then don't back them up, or use sophistry to support your claims, such as "well, it's just my opinion," and "facts are in the eye of the beholder."

[NinetySix]

56. Your right. I looked into it -- this is HUGH!!1!!1

Man, everyone here at Democratic Underground HATES AMERICA! That's why they all rush to find those who are against the US, and align themselves with COMMUNISTS like Hugo Chavez (who evidently steals elections much more subtly than SOME people -- what a pro!)

I'm gonna start going over to FreeRepublic and BEGGING for forgiveness for being so obtuse.

:sarcasm:

[bemildred]

81. Yes, clearly Hugo is not helping anymore, and he ought to shutup now.

:rofl::rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

82. What happened to the usual Chavez haters?

Did they all give up & decide to let the rookie handle it?

[NinetySix]

92. Perhaps one of the tombstoned has returned from the crypt....

SPOOKY.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

96. Ah, the joys of dynamic IP addresses. (nt)

[Outrider]

102. Look at his profile

McLean County, IL is anything but a haven for liberals. Most of the "liberals" in the county, and there aren't that many, are distressingly conservative. There is a small minority of true liberals in the county but he does not appear to be one of them.

[foflappy]

110. McLean county is quite conservative

but I do not hold their views in general. There is quite a large contingent of progressives in the area, mostly found in and around the campuses but not like it used to be.

What is a true liberal anyway I did not know that there was a absolute definition...anyway I would call myself a progressive.

I have found that it is important to work well with both sides in order to get anything done.

[foflappy]

116. Is this a form of geographic clasism

I come from a conservative county so I am conservative... my how progressive you are!!:)

[Outrider]

122. No, I speak from experience

I grew up here and still work here. The liberals of the county are by observation more conservative than average. You're statements follow the what would be the average response for a liberal of McLean county which as I have said are more conservatively biased than average.

[foflappy]

134. Ive been here in McLean County

for over 35 years....used to much more liberal if you ask me but maybe I was younger and more liberal then...The eddy building is gone, speedy burrito is gone, the gallery is gone...:( (all the clubs from the 70's are gone..poison apple, red lion....)

things change and maybe hard core liberals become more conservative but I hope that I am still as progressive as I used to be...I may not drive around in painted VW vans tripping on acid or shrooms and I may not take pictures of undercover cops for the Post Amerikan but I do serve on the board of directors of area Non profits that I am sure you have heard of. I do speak publicly on alternative trade, I do teach ESL (volunteer) I did bring biology labs for area homeschoolers to Heartland CC, I am working with other leaders to bring a childrens peace camp to the area...I judge myself by my actions....which may not appear to agree with my politics...

PM me if you want to discuss more local lore and maybe a good debate on politics!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. Nothing to do with geography. IT. (nt)

[foflappy]

136. You could have just asked.

:)

[Solon]

137. Nothing to do with it...

I have a burden to bear, live in Moran Central after all(St. Charles, MO), ask someone else to explain it to you, if you don't know why I call it that, famous pic on the net, is all I'll say. So far, no one has labeled me a freeper, communist yes, freeper no. Hell, being called a red is damn near a compliment, though I'm only a pinko.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Say_What]

168. Thanks for that link...

I do think it could be the late Beel2112 reincarnated into another name. Too many similarities in the posts.

[Why Syzygy]

114. They gotta try out their training wheels

(balls) SOMETIME! :rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

143. Yes, this IS HUGH!!!11!!1!!1!!! He just stumbled into a hotbed of

dictator-loving, some o' them -> COMMIES! <- No doubt THAT's what the D. in D.U. stands for: COMMIES!

[bearfan454]

98. Chavez is for the people and not the big companies. It's opposite

of what we have here. Go Chavez ! Make those big companies pay and pay and pay.

[Say_What]

108. Same post nearly word for word that I saw on a Cuba thread last week

same old right wing bullshit.

:boring: :boring: :boring:

[slay]

170. The same reason "some people" take every opportunity to bash Chavez

We know what side we are on - and for me it's NOT the side of those assholes from V-crisis. We can only dream of the day Bush would stand up for the poor the way Chavez does. Chavez has done what most are afraid to do - stand up to Bush and his criminal buddies. Chavez may not be perfect, but I believe he really does want what's best for his country. Can't say the same for Bush. You should take a look at the film about Chavez - "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" and then see if you are still such a Chavez hater.

[losdiablosgato]

47. In related news Bushco annouced that there are suspected WMD in Venezuela

[IndianaGreen]

119. The oil belongs to Venezuela and the Venezuelan people

Not to some foreign corporation.

I hope Chavez does what Fidel did in Cuba, and what we ought to do in America: nationalize the energy industry!

I won't shed any tears for a transnational corporation, or the assets they unfairly acquired, and neither should anyone else.

Viva Chavez! Abajo con Bush!

[DFWJock]

121. This sounds like a job for...

Halliburton!

[katty]

127. amen to that! bush&gang (so far) are not having much

luck in privatizing Iraq - populating the "new" Iraq with all their pet companies-with no real security, privatization is being, at least, stalled.

[1932]

135. During the 2003 strikes in Venezuela, the country was in debt because

the oil deals previous countries entered into gave no money to the government.

Isn't that crazy?

I read that in the Chavez and the New Latin America book available at Amazon.

[Megahurtz]

162. Agreed!

:thumbsup:

[McCamy Taylor]

150. OMG, Condie has no troops to protect her bosses' oil interests!

How can the US invade Venezeula to save Chevron's oil fields with all its troops in Iraq? I guess * and Co. are no planning the next coup and /or assassination attempt.

God protect Hugo Chavez and the people of Venezeula.

[Sgent]

164. I'm not sure what to think

Although I understand that Venezuala has been screwed by Multi-national corporations, I'm not convinced that unilaterrally taking over an industry is anything but communism.

At least here, emmenient domain does reimburse people/companies for their losses. I know most people think they are screwed in the proceedings, but in the vast majority they are probably given within 10-20% of what the property is worth, not orders of magnitude less or nothing.

Although I supported much of the platform that Chavez espouses -- both during his elections and now, I am very concerned about his governments increasing tendancy towards communism.

[IndianaGreen]

166. Do some reading on the Bolivarian Circles

and get over the phobia about "communism" by which you, and millions of others, were indoctrinated by a school system whose only goal was to turn us all into obedient consumers.

[Say_What]

167. Precisely...

way too many brainwashed and befuddled 'murikans who think they live in a 'free and democratic' country. Free and democratic in the USSA is dependent on the color of one's skin and/or economic class.

Peace!!

[1932]

172. Communism is a centrally-planned economy. Venezuela is a market economy.

PDVSA has a management team that is independent of the government and is also now very independent of the oligarchy thanks to the fact that they cleared them out after the 2003 strikes.

For a while it was run by Ali Rodriguez who was president of OPEC at the time of the attempted Venezuelan coup (word is he was the one who tipped of Chavez so that they had time to put the troops in the basement of Millaflores).

Rodriguez is now the foreign minister of Venezuela, I believe. The guy is brilliant,

In terms of socialism, PDVSA is the only industry that the government plans on owning (and the constitution specifies that it must remain that way). But guess what? That's always been the case, technically. Government ownership allowed oligarchs to run it for the personal benefit. When Chavez was elected they tried to privatize the brains of PDVSA so that they could keep on keeping on ripping off Venezuelans. Chavez's government put a stop to that by entrenching government ownership (but not management) in the constitution.

It's hard to argue that he's turning towards communism when in one sense he's maintaining the status quo (PDVSA has always been owned by the government). It's even harder to criticize him for interfering with the free market when the real threat to honest competition was when the oligopoloy was running PDVSA for their private gain.

[Moderator]

173. locking

discussion has gone way off topic