Storm over Italy crucifix ruling

[IndianaGreen]

Last Updated: Sunday, 26 October, 2003, 20:03 GMT
Storm over Italy crucifix ruling

A controversy has erupted in Italy over a court ruling ordering a state kindergarten to remove crucifixes from its classrooms.

A judge in the central town of L'Aquila upheld a complaint by an Italian Muslim leader, Adel Smith.

The ruling has re-opened a bitter debate about religious symbols.

<snip>

But the ruling has shocked the Roman Catholic Church.

"You cannot remove a symbol of the religious and cultural values of a people just because it can offend someone," said a leading prelate, Cardinal Ersilio Tonini.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3215445.stm

[ablbodyed]

1. Oh, YES YOU CAN......

Remove religious symbols. They offend me. My spiritual life does NOT NEED constant reminders.

[Superfly]

5. Just like this...

BEFORE



AFTER



Because they were offended, the Taliban deprives the world of these works of RELIGIOUS art.

[PartyPooper]

6. Sorry. But, that was a travesty against *all* of humanity!

Art is art. Art is for everyone! If it has religious connotations, so be it. But, you can not destroy art simply because it has religious significance! Otherwise, most of the world's 'art treasures' would be 'shit-canned' for PC!

:evilfrown:

[Superfly]

7. I'm not sure if I understand your point...

were you disagreeing with me?

[PartyPooper]

13. I am against the destruction of historical art.

And, your illustrative post enraged me.

Superfly, I believe I understand your position. But, the event you posted brought back a lot of hostility I have towards these wanton acts of destruction.

No offence towards you personally, but, I have a tremendous reverence for art, archaelogy, and humanity. Your post just amplified my outrage and anger!

BTW, like so many others here at DU, I was appalled at the sacking of the Baghdad Museum...along with some very significant archaelogical sites in Iraq.

I'm trying to 'chill' now. Thank you!

Cheers and peace!

O8)

[Superfly]

14. Zat's cool.

I, too, get upset when I hear of the destruction of things which cannot be replaced.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. those budda's were religious statues period...they were destroyed

for this reason alone

[Maple]

11. No they weren't

World bodies were offering money to fix up the statues...but refusing any money to aid starving Afghan children.

So the Taliban removed the statues.

The statues could have been of goats, fairies or sea serpents. Wouldn't have mattered.

World bodies chose stone over humans.

The Taliban disagreed with their priorities.

[Superfly]

12. I don't suppose I could bother you for some proof?

If you'd be so kind.

[Paschall]

22. I'd also like proof, Maple

I've never heard that version of that story and it contradicts statements issued by the Taliban at the time. It also doesn't explain why the Taliban destroyed other, less important, non-Muslim religious symbols for which foreign governments (and the UN) had NOT offered restoration funds.

[PartyPooper]

15. Please read my post above, #13!

Thank you!

O8)

[Paschall]

21. That's more than disingenuous (ie BS), superfly

Dynamiting the Buddhas in Afghanistan can hardly be compared to removing a crucifix from a classroom wall.

Or do you usually remove things hanging on your walls with explosives?

Furthermore, those Buddhas were part of Afghanistan's heritage, from the days when the country flourished as a way station on the Silk Road. The Taliban--who are NOT Afghanis for the majority--destroyed a cultural landmark in a country where they were foreign occupiers.

[JNelson6563]

30. So let me get this straight....

Are you equating taking a crucifix off a classroom wall with the Taliban's destruction of that ancient, magnificent artwork?

Julie

[private_ryan]

18. edited

removed

[bleedingheart]

2. Unless its a catholic school I don't see a need for them

[Liberator_Rev]

3. Europe's history is State SUBSIDY of Religion.

We Americans tend to assume that other countries are like the U.S.
In Germany after World War I, the liberal Weimar Republic tried to end state subsidy of religious education, but failed to follow through. One of the things Hitler did to ingratiate the NAZIs with the Roman Catholic Church was to TRIPLE the state subsidy to Catholic schools, colleges and churches in just a few years. No wonder they found it hard to speak out against Hitler! See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal .

[Paschall]

23. What's true of Germany is not true of all of Europe

The church and state were officially separated by law in France in 1905. Though religious schools do currently receive some public funding in France, their educational programs are subject to state control.

More pertinent is perhaps the fact that the French state seized the holdings of the church a century ago, between 1899 and 1907, when the Church was simply stripped of its property. Ever visit Notre Dame or the Cathedral of Chartres? They belong to the French Republic, not the Catholic Church.

[JasonBerry]

24. Is There a Better example of STATE religion than BRITAIN???

That's one I don't understand. The CofE and its funding is just incredible to me.

On edit: I should say the state funding of certain CofE activities. The state obviously no longer DIRECTLY funds the church. But, the CofE is the CofE and enjoys the powers that bestows.

[Kellanved]

26. history? present

Germany (especially the southern states) is not that secular (As for example France). Recent supreme court rulings removed crosses from schools, but they're still present in courtrooms.
The government even collects the church-taxes for the major religions and the conservative party still has a 'c' for "christian" in it's name. It's Weimar-republic precedessor (more to the point: the one they acknowledge- there is one more...), the Zentrum, started under direct control of the catholic church. All official oaths can be held with the suffix "so help me god".
People employed by the catholic church have far less social security and longer work hours than ordinary German workers. Even their right to strike / form Unions is limited. Church-schools and kindergartens are subsidized; religous instructions are offered inside public schools by represenatives of their respective religions (that system is pretty good IMHO)

[Gman]

4. What does the Italian constitution say?

If the Italian constitution permits it, no problem. If people don't like it, change it.

If it's prohibited like it is here, it has no place in the school.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

9. bottomline!

[IndianaGreen]

10. The law was put on the books by Mussolini, as part of his Concordat

with Pope Pius XI.



Fascism and the Papacy

J. McCabe, Rationalists Encyclopaedia

The Pope wanted the full application of the Canon Law in Italy, the suppression of all non-Catholic cults, the control of all education, and a generous measure of temporal (royal) power. In 1929 he was forced to compromise and they signed an agreement by which the Pope got œ19,000,000 in cash (which he is rumoured to have invested in America and lost in the ensuing depression) and State bonds - the sum, with accumulated interest, allotted to the Papacy in 1870 - and independent power in the Vatican City (108 acres of Rome, with its own postage, railway station, etc.).

They signed also a Concordat by which the Pope got control of all schools and colleges below the universities (control of which both professors and Fascists heatedly opposed), the establishment of Catholicism as the State-religion, the endowment of the clergy, the protection of the property of monks, a law of religious marriage, drastic penalties on all criticism of the Church, the enforcement of the Church's Holy Days, relief from taxation for the clergy and Church property, and the expulsion of all ex-priests (who were very numerous in Italy) from the Civil Service.

http://www.acts2.com/thebibletruth/Mussolini_and_the_Vatican.htm

[mooseknuckle]

27. no religion in school

does anybody see a correlation between taking God out of schools and an increase in school violence? where's all those Catholic school shootings?

[HawkerHurricane]

28. anyone see a correlation

Between allowing preachers on television and school shootings?

And yes, there have been shootings in Catholic Schools.

[Gman]

31. You're talking apples and oranges

Catholic schools are religious by definition. Government schools are not religious according to the constitution.

There's no relationship.

[rini]

32. That is the most

on the money posting I've seen yet. It does not matter what we think, it matters what the Italian Constitution has to say. Also, the fact that it offeneded a Muslem is immaterial. What did he think he would find in Italy? What next, destroy all Michaelangelos statues on public display? Churches? It's Italy for goodness sake!

[IndianaGreen]

16. Some background on this story...

September 11, 2001: Are There Crosses in Schools? Is Italy Catholic?

A Fascist-era law requiring that crucifixes be hung in public buildings was never taken off the books, and the country's solicitor general has ruled that such displays do not violate the law that made Italy a secular state.

Still, while Italy may be the home of the Vatican, it is also the land of the nearly naked quiz show, an aggressively secular society where the abortion debate was wrapped up more than 20 years ago, and the inside of some of the world's most awe-inspiring places of worship are seen largely by tourists.

There is no evidence that church attendance has swollen recently, either, though there is a lot more talk now about the need to rise up in defense of Catholic culture.

Ms. Tartarini says that is what she was doing when she sent the teacher a disciplinary letter. The principal said she did not have the legal right to suspend her. But because Ms. Orlandini does not have tenure, the principal offered, smiling, 'I don't know if she'll be here next year.'

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2001/Nov/54.html

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. An Italian Muslim named Smith?

How odd.

[IndianaGreen]

19. There is a lot of literature about him (mostly in Italian)

Here is a Reuters story:

Muslim activist beaten up During Italian TV Show
2003-01-12 16:10:11

Reuters
12 January 2003

A group of far-right extremists burst into an Italian local television station late on Friday 10 January and beat up an outspoken Muslim activist appearing on a live chat show.

Adel Smith, head of the Italian Union of Muslims, and his associate Massimo Zucchi, were punched and kicked by more than 20 youths who forced their way into the studios of a small TV channel based in the northern Italian city of Verona.

Police said on Saturday they had arrested six of the attackers and had identified a further 17 suspects, all members of the neo-fascist Forza Nuova (New Force) movement.

Smith, who has caused outrage in Italy with his virulent criticism of both Israel and the Roman Catholic faith, went back on air immediately after the assault, his clothes dishevelled.

http://www.ummahnews.com/viewarticle.php?sid=990

[sarastro]

20. Regarding the Afghan Buddha statues....

While they are religous symbols, they are a part of the natural landscape, and not used in state-sponsored schools. The Afghan statues are akin to Mt. Rushmore; they are simply there, and not used to propogandize (for what, if nothing else, are our public schools but propoganda organs for "mainstream" ideology?). Destroying them was an act of intolerance, not pluralism, which was what the Italian decision was.

Sorry to divert the discourse of this thread. The beating of Smith and Zucchi is appalling, but not surprising. The far right has always been better at fighting than debating. It was the fists and knives of the fascists, not their words, that brought nations under their sway. I hope this incident doesn't silent either of these activists for a secular Italy.

[DemOverseas]

25. Religion is BIG

in the public schools (Sicily). It is a subject taught by the local priest. You can opt out if you want, but it is a standard subject. I was amazed that the crucifix was also standard as are photos of the pope. But, alas no Italian flag.
In the first week of school the kids are walked to the Catholic Church to have the priest give a talk on having a successful school year. Maybe it helps??? I'm not Catholic..my kid got to wear headphones and listen to Guns and Roses. (He is a great young man today.)

[Derrick Lang]

29. hahahahaha

Did this guy really say "You cannot remove a symbol of the religious and cultural values of a people just because it can offend someone, anyone who has a minutia of knowledge about the catholic church are most likely flabergasted.