Two GIs Killed When Tank Attacked in Iraq

[smallprint]

TIKRIT, Iraq (AP) - Two 4th Infantry Division soldiers were killed and one was wounded when their tank was hit by an explosive north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said Wednesday.

The three crew members of the Abrams tank were en route to a guard post when the undetermined explosive struck them Tuesday night near Balad, 45 miles north of Baghdad, according to the division spokeswoman, Maj. Jossyln Aberle.

The wounded soldier was evacuated to a U.S. military hospital in Germany, she said.


more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3322826,00.html

[saigon68]

1. Two already today--Bring Em on

Every day---Every Day

Thanks a lot Chimp --the families of these 2 are speechless I'm sure

[jmcgowanjm]

24. Bring 'em on and On they came

NAVY CONFIRMS
BUSH LIED ABOUT USS LINCOLN PHOTO OP!
http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/

[smallprint]

2. I haven't heard of an Abrams tank getting hit like this before

Not a good sign... possibly militants are using more powerful explosives...?

:scared:

on edit: Ben Wedeman on CNN just confirmed that this is the first Abrams tank to be "disabled" in Iraq...

[Devils Advocate NZ]

3. Maybe the Palestinians are paying back a few debts...

The Palestinians developed an explosive device that when detonated shot a jet of plasma through the weakest point on a tank - it's underside.

They used it against Israel's Merkava MBT's with surprising (to the Israelis) success. Perhaps they have passed on the designs for this weapon to the Iraqi resistance?

[smallprint]

4. I remember reading about those Merkavas getting hit

The IDF was shocked... they didn't think the Palestinians had strong enough explosives, or that they could smuggle those explosives into the West Bank. Well, surprise, surprise. I can only imagine all the munitions that are going around the black market in Iraq...

[dArKeR]

12. I hope you and I aren't the only people, including journalists, who

notice this! Not one report I've seen has even questioned how an Abrams was penetrated by a 'land mine' or 'RPG'. I've seen both used in other reports.

And it's hard for me to believe the Iraqi guerillas would use all that explosive to take out an Abrams when they could split the amount of explosives 30 times thus made 30 separate booby-traps instead of just one.

I want to make it clear; I'm not insensative to our murdered soldiers. I just don't believe how reporters, TV, Web, Newspaper... don't ask these kinds of questions in their reports.

The Iraqis must have a heck of a lot of explosives and moving at will because they sure don't seem desparate as Junior says.

The guerillas obvious know there are 2-3 soldiers in a tank but there is almost no hope in fracturing an Abrams or a Bradley. But they got a Bradley a few days ago and now an Abrams.

Something is going on and the media is too stupid or too paid-off not ask these questions.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Not quite true!

I clearly recalled reading about some Abrams being destroyed by Iraqis using new Russian anti-tank rockets, but this was before Baghdad fell, if I remember right.

Looks like someone is supplying the resistance with new weapons. The Russians as so cash-strapped that they will sell to whoever has the dollars to pay for them.

[smallprint]

16. Yeah, I should have mentioned that

Wedeman said it was the first tank to be hit since the end of "major combat operations."

You have an excellent memory!

[TheLastMohican]

17. Not necessarily the new weapons

Old reliable RPG-7 can take out an Abrams tank. This was proven by video live footage.

http://www.btvt.narod.ru/2/iraq533.html

Sorry, the site is in Russian, but under the first 4 photos, there's an Abrams hit by Rpg-7 in the side. This picture is taken on April 3, 2003 by american reporters 10 km from Baghdad and shown worldwide.

That's my 2 cents on the subject. Hope that helps.

[La_Serpiente]

5. I thought that

tanks were supposed to have heavy armor. Why is the ammo pentrating the tanks?

[Lexingtonian]

6. Location, location, location

The armor busting weaponry is so powerful, and tanks are already so heavy, that thick enough armor to survive can't cover all of the surfaces of any tank these days. So the turret, front, and sides get the most, the back varies, and top or bottom surfaces (the least likely places to get hit in combat, until recently) tend to get the weakest armoring.

Tanks have lost in height since WW2 and keep on getting flatter, but to keep enough motor, fuel, and ammo on board they have to get wider and longer. That means their top and bottom surfaces are larger now.

There are three or four ways to damage a tank with a projectile. Depleted Uranium at extremely high velocity is really effective- the uranium vaporizes but (via its momentum) smashes through a foot or two of any metal and explodes any ammunition or gasoline. Plasma generating explosives are sort of a middle thing between a partly penetrating normal explosive shell and DU- the focused explosive burns so hot that it melts metal before it moves it forward much by the generated air pressure- and so 'burns' through pretty thick layers of metal.

[Best_man23]

31. You're right

Hit a tank in a light armored area and even an RPG-7 will penetrate.

If the Iraqis have procured some Russian Kornets, which has a double shape charge warhead capable of penetrating reactive armor as well as several feet of conventional armor, our tank guys better be careful.

[TheLastMohican]

35. Not a single Kornet or any evidence of its use has ever been found

You guys too easily fall for propaganda. There is not a single evidence and even US military accepted it that Kornet missiles are absent from Iraqi weapon stockpiles.

Bush and his administration just count on if you tell a lie big enough someone will believe it.

[Atlant]

20. Maybe they picked up a few thousand Depleted Uranium rounds...

> I thought that tanks were supposed to have heavy armor.
> Why is the ammo pentrating the tanks?

Maybe because the armor was built by the lowest bidder?

Maybe the reactive armor doesn't work as planned?

Maybe because the Iraqis picked up a few thousand Depleted Uranium
rounds lying around in the desert?

Doubtless there are other possibilities.

Atlant

[smallprint]

7. Update: U.S. postwar Iraq combat deaths pass wartime toll

a different article on the same attack:

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two U.S. soldiers were killed in an attack north of Baghdad late on Tuesday, the U.S. military says, taking the combat death toll among U.S. troops in Iraq since the war higher than the wartime total.

link: http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=395937§ion=news


Wow, this is some Orwellian doublespeak... "combat" deaths pass "wartime" deaths?!?!?! What the F*&K?!!

:wtf:

[0007]

8. Bring the troops home

is the only way to win this war!

[jonoboy]

9. not that it matters now

but has George Bush ever visited a family of any serveiceman killed.?

[leftchick]

10. US Postwar death Toll Hits a New Milestone...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031029/ts_nm/iraq_deaths_dc

<snip>BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two U.S. soldiers were killed in an attack north of Baghdad late on Tuesday, the U.S. military said on Wednesday, taking the combat death toll among U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) since the war higher than the wartime total.


A spokesman for the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division said the two soldiers were killed and another was wounded when their vehicle hit a roadside bomb.

edit: oops...saw you already posted this smallprint!
:hi:

[onebigbadwulf]

11. =(

Good morning Vietnam!

[dbt]

13. Those 'amateurs' are getting pretty professional

Our machines of war are "the best in the world," just like they were in Viet Nam*. And they're being taken out by crude devices fashioned by third-world barbarians who use the cast-offs of the invading forces to strike at the weakest points. Just like they were in Viet Nam.

Tell me again how this "war" is different?

:freak:
dbt

(* Old School usage of the country's name, left over from Draft Lottery days.)

[Atlant]

21. This time, we have a complete moron in charge.

> Tell me again how this "war" is different?

Last time, we had "the best and the brightest" in charge.

This time, we have a complete moron in charge.

'Think things will go any better because of it?

Atlant

[Bandit]

27. There are many differences

We were engaged with regular military units. They were the North Vietnamese Army and they were in full uniform and had regular installations they operated out of. Granted they were underground with thousands of miles of tunnel complexes but they could pop up almost anywhere. Most of our combat situations were in wilderness areas. Triple canopy jungle etc. They would fire mortars and rockets into our encampments daily. Almost no suicide bombings took place in population centers. They were aided by China and Russia so had plenty of resources. There actually is no comparrison what-so-ever except GIs dying daily.

[JackDragna]

32. The scary thing is that these are professionals..

..or getting that way. Who knows how many ex-Iraqi soldiers, soldiers from other nations or trained guerillas are in Iraq right now? It's a god damned shooting gallery over there, with every Arab that despises us having an easy path to finding and killing U.S. soldiers. I cannot begin to express my disgust at the president and this failed war.

[farmbo]

14. Yikes! Someone's got their hands on some Russian Kornet AT missles

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/SciTech/iraq_kornetFAQ030327.html

A nasty little light weight, shoulder fired, armor- piercing jobbie which-- if they exist in large numbers-- could make life miserable for our armoured guys.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. That's exactly what the current story brought to mind...

...plus two additional questions:

1) Like you, I wonder if they have those things in quantity.

...and...

2) Have they discovered a way to fire them remotely from beside or under the roadway.

...and...

3) Or both.

None of it is good news for our tank guys.

[TexasPatriot]

25. the syrians

purchased about 4000 russian AT missiles - and if i remember correctly something like 1500 of those were the modern kornet variant. the fear was that there had been some movement of those assets to Iraq before the war started - but other than the couple of incidents at the end of march there was nothing.

Moving Kornets around isnt easy - and getting them into exactly the right place to strike a Bolo? it doesn't seem likely. my bet is on a big homemade explosive and a lucky trackhit.

[happyslug]

33. for more information on the Kornet:

For More information on the AT-14 Kornet see:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/at-14.htm

For pictures see:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/index.html


]

[catmandu57]

19. They're getting pretty good at killing americans

358 is the american death toll now. 358 families have answered the door only to be told that their loved one has been killed in iraqnam for a sick twisted vision of world domination and the control of resources.

Actually, we passed the number of soldiers killed during "active combat operations" way the fuck back in July. This is just enron accounting.

I read the other day that a large number of armour piercing shells were in iraqnam, so maybe that's what was used, and maybe it's only the first.

[user]

22. it also happened in August

Agonist had this other story on their site early this morning. This happened in August

‘Something’ felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq – but what?

Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad “was hit by something” that crippled the 69-ton behemoth.

Army officials still are puzzling over what that “something” was.

[Scottie72]

23. In the words of our

GREAT LEADER ..."Hmm two more die today mean we successful in our effort!" <sarcasm off>

This is awful how many are going to have to die?

Support the troops bring em home alive and well!!! Their families miss them terribly!

[bluestateguy]

26. See

This is just another example of a foolish policy that has led to nothing but carnage.

I will continue to talk about this until the killing stops.

[Aristus]

28. As a former Abrams tank crewman, I have to say that the

comment about the lowest bidder building the tank is a bit off base. General Dynamics built an incredible machine. It surpassed all of its expectations in the first Gulf War, and aside from a sometimes delicate engine, was a true world beater. Having said that, it has the same vulnerabilities as any tank; thinner armor up top and along the bottom, and dangerous shot traps underneath the turret overhang.

I've got a question for anyone with the knowledge of what's going on: Someone mentioned that the Abrams may have 2 to 3 crewmen on board. In fact, the Abrams crews four; Tank commander, gunner, loader and driver. However, it occurred to me that the tankers may be operating over there with understrength units. We occasionally did that in Germany, because there weren't enough guys to provide a four-man crew for every tank. What I'd like to know is, how are units replacing the men and women who are getting killed? How are they maintaining operational readiness regarding personnel? Are they going to require the draft soon in order to maintain crew levels? Anybody know?

[Barrett808]

29. Kind of puts the lie to the claim that the "desperate" insurgency can't...

...attack hard targets.

[fizzana]

30. This is getting more and more like a game of

"Whack-a-Mole".

For everyone they whack, two pop out and the speed at which this happens accelerates. The one thing that happens in every game is that in the end you lose.

[VolcanoJen]

34. Kick

:dem: