U.S. Hawk (Perle) Wants Russia Out of G-8

[kskiska]

Richard Perle, a hawkish policy adviser whose voice is heard in the Pentagon, has called for Russia to be expelled from the Group of Eight industrialized countries over the arrest of Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

"Russia should be excluded from the G-8. No G-8 country is allowed to treat its leading businessmen the way Russia treated Khodorkovsky," Perle was quoted as saying in Russian translation in the Thursday issue of Kommersant. "I believe Russia is moving fast in the wrong direction."

Perle, who believes that the White House should contain the Kremlin rather than cooperate with it, has criticized the campaign against Yukos shareholders from the beginning.

"It's possible already to say that real damage is being done to the prospects for future Russian economic growth and development by what appears to be an arbitrary, capricious and vindictive campaign against a private company," he said during a Moscow seminar in July after the arrest of Yukos shareholder Platon Lebedev.

more…
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/10/31/011.html

[pakaya]

1. Why take russia out and Put Israel in? in the G8

[Blitz]

9. Aside from the fact that Richard Perle is a Jew

What does the article have to do with Israel, exactly?

[Maple]

2. Happily, Perle

doesn't get to say who is in or out of the G8

[roguevalley]

3. I would like Perle expelled from the United States.

Isn't this Russian businessman a criminal?

[Stephanie]

7. Second that. And he can take Wolfowitz with him.

MFs

[Zhade]

13. Yukos just signed a deal with ExxonMobil.

Now the guy's arrested.

Anyone else think Putin might be blocking Exxon's toehold into the Caspian area to head off the neoconjobs?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. He's just worried the US will get ideas and finally lock up the people

that are ravaging this nation like him.

Given that he is elected to NO OFFICE why should the nation CARE what Perle calls for?

Hasn't he harmed us enough economically?

His THANK GOD THE UN IS DEAD column no doubt helped us to raise billions to rebuild Iraq....right?

[scisyhp]

5. Good for Russia.

They must be doing something right.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. Now that Perle's weighed in

I'm pretty sure Putin did the right thing.

[Jack Rabbit]

8. US dissident (Rabbit) wants Perle in The Hague

Jack Rabbit, an American dissident who has marched against US colonialism in Iraq, has called for an intenational tribunal to be convened in The Hague to indict and try suspected war criminals including Pentagon advisor Richard Perle.

[Bandit]

45. How did you call for an international tribunal?

Are you making a joke? I am slow this morning. Did you really do anything more than post on this board? I hope so and I would agree that there are many that need to be in front of a tribunal. Go Mr. Rabbit and raise holy hell.

[JackSwift]

10. Russia has the right to

charge and arrest people who criminally violate its wrongs. Where and when did rich businessmen get a dispensation from following local penal codes? I suppose I should have guessed from the Bush Administration's treatment of Enron and WorldCom execs.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. They don't want this right.

Where and when did rich businessmen get a dispensation from following local penal codes?

Google for MAI and FTAA. It's mind-boggling. Basically, they want big business to be officially above the law, everywhere.

[Vikingking66]

11. Perle wants to *contain* the Kremlin?????

Good god, he sounds like Allen Dulles.

[rman]

38. while containment (cold war) was denounced by the neocons.

supposedly a policy of containment is a show of weakness, and pre-emptive war is a much better alternative.

[VaLabor]

12. It's complicated.

Neither side is any good in this fight between Putin and Khodorkovsky.

It's two oligarchies battling it out - the political vs. the economic.

Putin represents the state bureaucracy, which has the power of arrest and political repression.

Khodorskovsy represents the economic oligarchy - billionaires who ripped off the Russian people, continue to be corrupt, and now have the Russian economy by the b*lls.

If Putin pushes too hard to fight corruption, actually going after every crook (which means the entire oligarchy), the oligarchs will sell off Russian assets, there will be massive capital flight, and the oligarchs will exit the country with much of Russia's wealth. The Russian people obviously will suffer immensely.

On the other hand, Putin seems to be targeting only certain oligarchs - those with apparent designs for political power. Putin is part of the same corruption that the economic oligarchs are part of. Everyone with power has a stake in making sure much of the corruption continues.

You have to feel sorry for Russia.

[Maple]

14. Russia is booming

And Putin is the elected leader.

Don't feel sorry for Russia.

[Resistance Is Futile]

22. Aparently

Freedom of speech isn't one of the fruits of globalization that you tout at every opportunity...

[mikehiggins]

27. Whoa, Nelly, just hold on here a minute

You aren't talking about the USA you know. A major and growing rap against Putin and his cohorts is that they all got their start in the KGB (or whatever it was called when he headed it). As someone said, you can take the boy out of the KGB, but you can never take the KGB out of the boy.

Maybe US billionaires can sell off America and head for tax shelters in Belize and so on. Russian billionaires who try to pull that crap will more likely end up with bullets in their heads and unmarked graves lost somewhere out in the hinterlands.

It never fails to amaze me how deep down Americans really think the rest of the world is just like us.

[ConcernedCanuk]

29. ____ _____ I appreciate your insight - BUT ____

. . . don't think that the BFEE is beyond using bullets to get their way

. . Even in the U S of A

. alot of people that "cross" the administration die "strangely"

?? - am I wrong ?

[Minstrel Boy]

30. I think Cliff Baxter might have something to say

about those rose coloured glasses you wear regarding American business. And many other ghosts besides.

And as for Putin getting his start in the KGB, do you remember where Bush Sr got his start?

Not even America is like America.

[mbperrin]

42. Hmmm......sounds like the Russian

model has definite advantages!

[Voltaire99]

40. Nice post (n/t)

[cliss]

15. I know this is a senstive question,

but it needs to be asked: how many members of the PNAC are of the Jewish faith? And does that have any bearing on this issue?

Paul Wolfowitz - yes
Richard Perle - yes
Jeb Bush - no
Donald Rumsfeld - don't think so
Douglas Feith - ?
William Kristol - ?
the newspaper reporter - I forget his name.... ?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. I'll tell ya why it's a sensitive question (clue)

It is reminiscint of Nixon having a "Jew counter" in the White House as in Fred Malik.

It's pretty clear that no MATTER the neo-cons other agenda the issue is oil and economic control. Why not focus on that instead of counting Jews?

On edit, clue number 2 and BTW: Where the group running things isn't of the "Jewish faith," they are either of the "Christian faith" or the military industrial complex. One Attila and two opposing agendas.

[J B]

17. That's why they say even using the word neocon is anti-Semitic

You're playing into their hands.

[aquart]

53. Excuse me? Who is "they"?

Lotta "they"s running around this place.

How many PNAC signatories are Christian, BTW?

How many are white men?

[Resistance Is Futile]

18. Better idea

Here's a better idea: count the zionists. The neocon cabal is loaded to the gills with rabid zionists who regard the advancement of Israeli objectives (i.e. expansion by force) to be at least equally important as American security. Many of these people have formal or semi-formal ties to Likud and are only nominally loyal to American interests. By the numbers, however, most of these creeps are Christian millennialists rather than Jews....

[Blitz]

46. I keep asking this

Define zionism for me. Define what a zionist is.

For the record, I'm a zionist. Everyone in my family is a zionist. Every Jew that I personally know is a zionist. Virtually all of the non-Jews that I know who I have discussed the issue of Israel with are zionists. Most of Congress is zionist, including most Democrats in Congress.

So, RIF: What's a zionist? What's zionism?





Never Again.

[Resistance Is Futile]

64. Zionists

I'm defining 'zionists' as people who believe in greater Israel (beyond 1967) and who believe that Israeli concerns deserve special hearing in the United States.


Your insinuation that anyone who doesn't keep quiet about Israeli influence in American politics is only one step away from wanting to march jews into gas chambers is insulting.

[Blitz]

66. Kindly point out

my insinuation, as you call it.



Never Again.

[Blitz]

71. And where is your definition of zionism

supported by any objective source whatsoever? A dictionary? An encyclopedia? Anything?

How is that substantially different than saying "I'm defining "zionists" as individuals who want to control America and take over the world for their Jewish masters under the banner of Israel" except for degree? When people start making up their own definitions for words, and then use those wrds as if everyone should understand what they, in their minds mean, language collapses.

Zionism is an old and well defined term. It does not mean what you think or say it means. Kindly stop misusing it.




Never Again.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. It's not how many are Jews

the question is how many are also members of Likud?

[aquart]

54. Likud is an Israeli political party.

Are you speaking of dual citizenship? Or just slinging mud?

Perhaps you mean "sympathetic to the Likud"?

Perhaps you're just something from under a rock.

[Military Brat]

21. Doesn't matter if they're Jews or Christians

They've all perverted their faiths.

[DeathvadeR]

51. True Dat. n/t

[ForestsBeatBushes]

61. Excellent point.

When I registered for this forum, I never realized the emphasis I would find on Jews. This just can't be 'Democratic Underground' - did I stumble into a front for The Order?

[Jack Rabbit]

24. I could round it out for you . . .

. . . and give you the answer about Feith and Kristol, but I'll leave that to somebody else.

You are implying what? Frankly, I think these guys would take exactly the same tact they do if they were Presbyterians.

BTW, Noam Chomsky is a Jew.

[Classical_Liberal]

36. Well there are christian zionist so it isn't exclusively jewish

Most jews don't subscribe to their extremism, but they are fringe zionists, so I don't think it follows they would be the same way unless you think they would be fundy christians.

Anyway both sides of this argument are too unnuanced for me.

[pakaya]

32. Charles Krauthammer

Charles Krauthammer??/ He is not a jewish he is moslem? correct me if I am wrong

[lumpy]

44. You are wrong

nt

[rman]

39. never mind jews, look for Zionists

the RW-hardliner gang in US government seems to be an extension of Likud.

[Blitz]

47. Look no further

I'm a zionist. Now what?





Never Again.

[aquart]

57. Define "zionist."

As near as I can tell, it's the prestige code word for "kike."

But I look to you for enlightenment.

What is "zionism"? Could you define that?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

65. Zionism:

A Definition of Zionism

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1893 by Nathan Birnbaum.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html


BTW, "kike" is a racial slur. I would hope you would not use it nor any others directed at any other groups here or anywhere again.

[Lurking Dem]

69. I'm a Zionist.

boo

[cliss]

19. Thanks, Resistance

You're right. That's a much more deadly combination (and many more in their numbers).

I remember reading something to the effect that when and if these neocons succeed in starting Armageddon, they plan to do something with the people of Jewish faith... not clear about it.

anyway, no harm intended. Thanks

[leesa]

23. ALL oil barons should be arrested

[Judi Lynn]

25. What can you make of this odd Google snipe?

Just entered his name, this showed up:

http://www.exile.ru/vault/cards/khodorkovsky.html

They have their own "playing cards" to villify people on their gummint's #### list, just like our own imbecilic Iraqii playing cards.

[ConcernedCanuk]

26. Other players start spinning this affair to advance their interests."

... From the Article:

"Other players start spinning this affair to advance their interests."

Does that not sound like EXACTLY what the WH has been doing for ages ??

And you know what, ??

I think that Russia may well come out of this looking like the "good" guys

And that is NOT good for the USA

no tears here in Canukville

I've said it before and I say it again

I like the American people

BUT . . . . .

UR Government SUCKS !!

[goforit]

28. Sounds like a spoiled brat!!!!

?

[haymaker]

31. Correction: U.S. ChickenHawk

That guy is just another Bush Admin. punk-ass bitch.

[lumpy]

52. The Bush administration is Perle's punk-a bitch.

nt

[camero]

33. So much for establishing the rule of law

This just shows how much repubs are against it.

[TheLastMohican]

34. If a chickenhawk is getting mad then Putin is really doing something good

for Russia. Watch the PNACers go berserk over the issue. They don't care one bit about the validity of accusations that Khodorkovsky actually acquired all his wealth not through hard and committed labor but through stealing and shady deals when millions of people in Russia and former Soviet Union were left without decent pensions, scholarships and means for existence. Putin is finally doing the right thing and bringing justice.

[legin]

35. Is this an oil question ?

I've tended to view this as a Putin v. the oligarchs.

But say Putin wanted to cut production of Russian oil to fufill an agreement with the Saudis. My guess would be that the owners of the oil companies would tell Putin to take a running jump into the nearest lake, because they would be looking, if the saudis cut production, to just gain market share and increase profits.

So if what is going on now is Putin trying to get the ability to control Russian oil production, that might explain why Perle is so ticked off.

[Classical_Liberal]

37. It feels like 1982 or something. "Contain the Kremlin"

?

[cthrumatrix]

43. Could this all be becuase of the Dollar...read this

snip

When Gerhard Schroder visited Putin at the beginning of October, Putin intimated that he would begin by regaining control over Russian gas and petrol and that he would convert their trading, now in dollars, to euros.

On his part, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahatir Mohammad, has experimented with the abandonment of the dollar in international exchanges, but in order to replace it with gold. He has signed bilateral agreements with his country’s business partners. Malaysian exports and imports will in future be traded in gold.

Buoyed by this, he has suggested to the Islamic Bank of Development a plan that would put an end to U.S. dominance. Inspired by the Arab cartel which created the oil shortage of 1974, he has outlined a decisive monetary assault. The idea is to switch world petrol trading to gold, thereby provoking the fall of the dollar and the collapse of the U.S. economy.

At first, Saudi Arabia, menaced by Washington neo-conservatives, was opposed to this plan, but became agreable to it. The Islamic Bank of Development presented the proposal at the summit meeting of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) which was held recently in Malaya, presided over by Dr. Mahatir Mohammad. It was agreed that bilateral agreements for a transition to the gold standard would be prepared between Islamic countries, during the course of next year. At the next summit meeting, to be held in Senegal, the fifty-seven Member-States of the Islamic Conference would be invited to sign a multilateral agreement.

Vladimir Putin who also attended the Islamic Conference, since a large number of the citizens of the Russian Federation are Muslims, encouraged the plan.

Abandoning the dollar presents a long and difficult struggle, for Europe as well as for Muslim countries. While an international campaign accusing Dr. Mahatir Mohammed of ressuscitating anti-semitism has been launched, Henry Kissinger and Condoleeza Rice appealed to the oligarch, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, for help in order to neutralise Putin. Last weekend, however, Putin had him arrested and detained.


http://www.unobserver.com/layout5.php?id=1144&blz=2

Our dollar is falling...and certain people are taking sides...don't forget Iraq switched to the Euro in 2000

[lumpy]

48. At this point in time

who is running the show in the US administration's foreign policies ? Wolfowitz, Perle and followers of AIPAC, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, who apparently support Sharon's policies in Israel. Why ? To protect the state of Israel, it's settlers in the Gaza and expansion of the state of Israel, to control US oil interests in the Mid-East through military power.

[Blitz]

55. In reference to an article having NOTHING to do with Israel or J-E-W-S

aside from the fact that Perle is Jewish, you've still managed to shine your light on all of those disloyal traitor JEWS who control the U.S. government and their disloyal traitor JEW and JEW-LOVER organizations. Congratulations. You must be proud to have exposed those scheming, plotting, conniving traitor JEWS and sent them scurrying from the light of your damning truth.

Never Again.

[lumpy]

62. The fact that Perle is making policy statements re. Russian justice syste

and Wolfowitz is co-designer of the Bush administration's Iraq War and affiliated with radical pro-Israeli organizations does not allow me to live under any illusions that these men are working for the betterment of the cause of freedom and peace. It is much more equitable to support the people, Jews included, who believe in diplomacy and rational decision instead of strong arm methods of invasion and war.

[aquart]

59. Are you, darling, saying Jews control MidEast oil interests?

Or that our Texans are Jews?

Why, that little obfuscation of yours was worthy of our George, it was.

Let's all beware of that huge power, Israel.

Those people are smart, you know. And they're into everything. And every bad thing is their idea. Jews aren't really human, either. Their clothes are specially tailored to conceal their tails.

Nothing like letting Protestants off the hook, is there?

[lumpy]

67. The answer is no, Dear,

to all of your assumptions. I assume you are an admirer of Perle and Wolfowitz and if so, I respect your defense of these dangerous schemers. I would like to see Israel succeed as a peaceful nation using peaceful methods to achieve that peace. I support Israeli dissidents and American Jews who refuse to go along with Sharon.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

68. Aside from your belief in ZOG,

provide links to prove your despicable assumptions in that post.

[DeathvadeR]

49. OMG

THis isn't gonna go over well./

[0007]

50. Ahmed Chalabi is the guy they should be going after, 'eh?

Why wouldn't Perle want this Chalabi guy turned over to Jordan or put in front of a firing squad for giving bad information that may have caused U.S. soldiers to die?

Me think Perle has got his fucking priorities screwed up.

[lumpy]

56. Chalibi , Perle and Wolfowitz are hand in glove.

Perle hasn't gotten his priorities screwed up at all. Chalibi is Perle/Wolfowitz's Boy Goat.

[Nottingham]

58. Kinda Scary for a Billionaire to go to jail by Government

that is why Big Business better watch out all their investments in foreign countries because the Pres or Prime Minist or Dictator can come in and say Today a Billionaire Tommorrow a guest of our Prison and all your wealth the states.

Thats why America was a haven for Business but alas the Big Business has forgotten the lessons of the past! :bounce:

[aquart]

60. Scary? Makes me kinda cheerful.

[htuttle]

63. I don't know...I sure would like to see Ken Lay in an orange jumpsuit

I can think of a few dozen others that are legally deserving of it as well.

Doesn't bother me a bit, and I wish the rule of law extended above the $200,000 annual income level here in the US.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

72. Is Ken Lay awaiting

trial?

sentencing?

or is he

in prison already?

Wait a darn minute: Ken Lay isn't a Jew - surprise, surprise surprise. Garsh darn it, neither is Rockefeller, Kennedy, Heinz (Hello, Kerry) and a whole buncha others. Shoot; another 'theory' shot to hell.

[TahitiNut]

70. Locking.

The Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum say, in part:

Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum.

The original article makes no mention of Israel, Palestine, or Middle East policy. Thus, posts introducing such references and digressing into I/PA issues are off topic and, in too many cases, highly inflammatory. Reviewing the thread, I find it beyond redemption. DUers interested in discussing I/PA issues are advised to do so in the appropriate forum.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator