US puts right to protest at risk

[Nottingham]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1074676,00.html

US puts right to protest at risk

Government prosecutes Greenpeace over protest

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Friday October 31, 2003
The Guardian

Greenpeace is being taken to court by the US government because of its action against the illegal importation of mahogany. Its lawyers says it is the first time an entire organisation has been criminally prosecuted for the activities of two members.
The prosecution arises from the activity in April last year of two Greenpeace members who boarded a vessel off the coast of Miami allegedly carrying mahogany from Brazil to the US and hoisted a banner saying: "President Bush, Stop Illegal Logging."

snip...

Normally that would have been an end of the matter, a familiar event for Greenpeace, whose activists are regularly arrested and usually fined or sentenced to short jail terms.

more....
"The government's action is unprecedented - prosecuting an entire organisation for the expressive activities of its supporters," he said. If it succeeded, he said: "Non-violent civil protest - an essential tradition from colonial times to the modern civil rights movement - may become yet another casualty of John Ashcroft's attack on civil liberties.
more...

Bush is really going after the Protestors!!! This really is Awful:bounce:

[teach1st]

1. Imagine what Ashcroft

Imagine what Ashcroft might have done to the patriots involved in 1773 Boston Tea Party action. He might have been able to accomplish what King George III couldn't - squash the revolution.

[Nottingham]

2. Your so right!!!

:bounce:

[Bozita]

13. Good take, teach1st.

Welcome to DU.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi teach1st!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[kwolf68]

3. Next stop

Concentration camps.

I'm fuckng fed up with this bunch.

[mbperrin]

4. I'm a

little past that!

[kwolf68]

5. Yea me too

But just when you think you can hate them no more, they find a way to inspire just a little more rage. It's really genius at work.

Prosecuting organizations who dissent?

I mean... I know people don't like us throwing around the word fascist, but if this isn't fascist...WHAT THE HELL IS IT?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

8. Text book fascism, no need to qualify the accusation of the 'F' word.

Kick.

[Philosophy]

26. concentration camps = "designated protest zones"

They already have those. Makes sense the * administration will just merge them in their penchant for Orwellian doublespeak.

[punpirate]

6. They were arrested on charges of...

... "sailor-mongering," an 1872 law designed to prevent the loss of ships' crews. Since they did not try to entice crew members to abandon their ship, I'm hoping the courts will throw this out as an unwarranted charge. The law does not apply to the intent or circumstances of Greenpeace's actions, nor to the end result of their actions.

Cheers.

[benfranklin1776]

10. You are correct.

What is also appalling here is that ASScraft was more interested in desperately scourng the moldy statute books for an obscure almost never used law to go after Greenpeace then he is in prosecuting those involved in the illegal importation of Mahogany the crime which GreenPeace has been repeatedly attempting to call attention to.

[diamond14]

11. why isn't asscroft busy finding the anthrax murderer or something

more important that going after legal protesters, water pipe sellers, people in Oregon who wish to die with dignity, or contesting college affirmative action and abortion before the U.S. Supreme Court ?

doesn't asscroft have something else to keep him busy...

[tom_paine]

15. Because he already knows who the Bushevik Anthrax Assassin is

n/t

[AWD]

7. Sounds familiar to me

[E_Zapata]

9. Civil Disobedience becoming another Ashcroft casualty?

I don't think so. In fact, I hope the court really screws this up and rules for the fascists. I think A LOT of Americans might have something to say about it..

[rook1]

12. Please Forgive me..

I haven't been here at DU long so maybe I don't quite understand, so I'll ask some questions.....

1.How does boarding a ship at sea constitute a protest?
(Seems to me that boarding a ship at sea that doesn't belong to you is priracy and the GPer's involved were lucky they weren't shot)

2. How is holding up an "Anti-Bush" sign going to stop illegal logging?
(It seems that this was more of of an anti-Bush protest than a GreenPeace operation)

3.How does Ashcroft have anything to do with this?

4.Do Democrats advocate the hijacking of ships on the high seas?

5.If the people that were involved were arrested and charged with a crime based on a law currently on the books how is this facism?

[uhhuh]

14. Do you know the definitions of words?

hi·jack also high·jack ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hjk) Informal
tr.v. hi·jacked, hi·jack·ing, hi·jacks

To stop and rob (a vehicle in transit).
To steal (goods) from a vehicle in transit.
To seize control of (a moving vehicle) by use of force, especially in order to reach an alternate destination.

To steal from as if by hijacking.
To swindle or subject to extortion.


pi·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-s)
n. pl. pi·ra·cies

Robbery committed at sea.
A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station

Can you tell me how either of these apply?
Can you also tell me how an entire organization, that has no control over individual members, can be charged with either these, or any other crimes?

These people are not being charged with crimes. The entire organization, which may or may not have sanctioned their act of TRESSPASSING, is being charged.

[Fish Eye]

16. I used to repect the Gaurdian

but after this completely bogus headline it is clear that the Gaurdian is a waste of paper....I was sad when I realized Fisk was full of shit too...

This was posted earlier as an alternet story (Green Peace propaganda)

Why is it OK for liberals to distort the truth but bad when conservatives do it????

[Speed8098]

17. "Government prosecutes Greenpeace over protest "

US puts right to protest at risk

Please tell me how this is a bogus headline.


"Why is it OK for liberals to distort the truth but bad when conservatives do it????"

:wtf:

Back up that statement with specifics. It is the right wing facists that are CONSTANTLY LYING.

Do you live in the US? Do you honestly believe that this administration has been honest and forthright?

Open your eyes. The Republicans of today are the most dangerous group on the planet and if you don't see that, then you are part of the problem.

World domination is their goal and they will use any means to achieve that goal, including taking away your rights if they feel that's what it takes. Read the patriot act, it's already started.

Talk about distorting the truth. :crazy:

[Fish Eye]

18. to answer you question

"Do you live in the US? Do you honestly believe that this administration has been honest and forthright?"

yes and no

my eyes are opened... lies and distortion are used by both liberals and conservtives do you actually believe that the republican are the most dangerous group on the planet??? Perhaps a short stay in North Korea or pick a central African country or china etc... the world is full of messed up people.

The degree of your partisanship will lead nowhere.

In regards to world domination it is clear that you would do away with republicans but isn't it you that would be doing the dominating??

the headline is a distortion of the truth. The United States is prosecuting within the bounds of the law...it has nothing to do with you or I marching, writing letters, or even performing civil disobedience.

This crime that is being prosecuted has nothing to do with the patriot act.

[Speed8098]

19. "The degree of your partisanship will lead nowhere."

You should be preaching that to the right wing.


Perhaps a short stay in North Korea or pick a central African country or china etc...

We are not in North Korea, or China which are openly dictatorships.

We are in the United States of America, which, the last time I looked, is supposed to be a republic run by "We the people, by the people, for the people."

The secrecy of this government and the enabling body of republicans that support that secrecy will be the downfall of "United We Stand".

The PNAC authors that dominate this administration are indeed the most dangerous people in the world, as are those that support them.

Look how they manipulated the American people into the invasion of Iraq. Look how many gung ho republicans jumped on the bandwagon with comments like "Nuke em all" or God hates liberals.

No, I don't need to visit known dictatorships to know that we have our own secret dictatorship right here is Washington DC.


And no I don't want to see the death of the republican party, I only want to get this facist little idiot out of the White House.

[Fish Eye]

20. Well..

"The secrecy of this government and the enabling body of republicans that support that secrecy will be the downfall of "United We Stand"."

All administrations have hidden things.

There are many more people more dangerous than the PNAC. They do suck but they are pretty weak i tis the ones who control them that I fear.

A dictatorship?? Something that has bothered me is this: If we have a dictatorship in the USA then why in the world would we be debating about who should be nominated to run against Bush??? Why are we not fighting against the extra constitutional dicatator??? Either the "bush stole the WH" "Bush is a dictator" rhetoric it hot air or those who say it are weak slavish people who are responsible for letting this "dictator" remain.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fish Eye]

22. Yes

I have the PNAC document.

What happened in the 2000 elections was a farce but if it really was a coup then why the heck is everyone sitting on their rear ends letting it happen....it is all hot air to me.

In regards to the "other forum" I have not lasted more than a few posts there because they are less aggreable to hearing the truth (that thing that lies between one side and the other)

I do belive you should read the posting rules here at DU.

[Speed8098]

23. I may only have 800 posts

But I have been here almost since inception, and I've seen many just like you. You come here and spout your bullshit and accuse us of being partisan. Then when you are called on it, you play innocent.

This is going nowhere, and it looks like you and I have to agree to disagree.

If you don't like my responses, feel free to hit the alert button.
However, you may want to learn from Rushs' mistakes.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[RainDog]

28. I suggest you read Bernard Gross's book, Friendly Fascism

Also a little reading on "post-fascism" might help you understand why so many of us do think we are looking at the first openly fascist American regime.

as far as the coup...well, Bush had a huge number of protestors at his "inauguration." Only the media didn't think that story was very important...no white girls were killed or raped, I suppose.

as far as sitting..I know many who are not sitting. we are trying to do what we can within the boundaries of the law. we are writing to our reps and protesting and writing letters to the editor and talking to others...

some on this board have led the fight to have auditable voting machines to insure real elections, not Diebold/Bush rigged shams.

If Bush wins or "wins" the next election, and if my "representatives" do not fight for me, then I have seriously considered leaving this country. I do not want my tax dollars to support Bush. I do not want my children to live in Bush's America.

The Guardian, btw, had an article predicting the attempted coup against Chavez long before it happened, and wrote the truth about it when it happened, unlike any mainstream newspaper that I saw in the U.S. (And they had to write "corrections" to their stories when the Exxon coup failed.)

So, you don't have to respect the Guardian. I no longer respect "mainstream" American media, for the most part, because I have followed their failures to honestly report issues and willfully lie for this administration.

It's sad to see this country lose its reason for being under the rule of an spoiled awol dipshit, but that's where we are, unfortunately.

[Occulus]

34. umm

"Perhaps a short stay in North Korea or pick a central African country or china etc... the world is full of messed up people."

I'm hitting alert on you, as this is a well-known and well-dissected rightwing talking point.

Nice try, disruptor, but your days on DU are done.

[NashVegas]

25. Nice RNC Talking Points You Have There

Okay I lied. In fact, they're pretty tired. Tell the list administrator they need new arguments.

[BloodyWilliam]

31. Because if we're not willing to, the bastards win.

We have to be bastards ourselves. GOOD bastards (with ideals and hope for the future, not just craven greed), but we can't trust the general goodness and common sense of the American people anymore.

[Nottingham]

27. Ok if Greenpeace is sued then lets sue the NRA too

they promote guns

If anybody gets killed by a gun from NRA organization lets Sue their A$$

Republicans be careful here what goes around comes around KARMA

:bounce:

[diamond14]

29. when the DC anti-war protesters returned, some DU posters

railed against them, very nasty, vicious verbal assaults...and sadly, few STOOD UP to demand that the attacks be stopped....


besides the huge heavily-armed police that the brave DC-anti-protesters faced...it was a real nightmare to have some come onto DU and convert many into a mass attack, a real reTHUGlican slam against all the brave Patriots....

the attackers should be recognized, because they repetitively spread dissent here on DU, and funnel attention to trivial issues...there are lots of people here now who are nasty to Democratic values...on all issues and at all levels...we must work harder to shove their hate and interruptions off this board...

[MissMarple]

30. An organization being held accountable for it's members actions? Hmm...

Now, that makes me want to smile.

Actually, :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

I say, go for it, John. We'll see your friends in court. What a concept. Enron, et al. :D

So, attorney folks, am I totally clueless here? I don't think they can make that case, but, if they do, how does that apply to related issues? Is this a win-win for us?

Or, on second thought, could they possibly be termed a "terorist" organization?

[Nottingham]

32. AMEN!!! AMEN!!!.........And thats where we are heading at

GreenPeace as a Terrorist group

but what about the ProLifers group when one of their members kills a doctor then do we hall all their A$$ to court

It works both ways or its a FARCE .....

:bounce:

[Snazzy]

33. And in the end, GreenPeace wins

Really they've already won.

The more attention brought to an issue, the more successful the campaign. If DOJ wants to stoop to using 19th century laws to make some sort of wing constituency happy (Miami wing Cubans I suspect), well, good.

I can state with certainty that whichever activists involved, and hopefully the whole org, are loving it--this is what GP does--the heavier the hand which attempts to take a swipe at these folks--at reasonableness itself--the better. Indeed, the more likely that DOJ's/the admin's actions will highlight the hypocrisy.

It is transparent, even if it is a minor news blip for today.

It is a blind and hopefully fatal Asscroft error to under-estimate Greenpeace, to take an public position against GP and therefore against reasonable environmental positions like preventing illegal sales which encourage rainforest deforestation. No win for the anointed one here. There is a huge army of US and worldwide GP members who will be active and will come to the defense of GP in such an outrage. New members will join! It's sorta like Fox going after Franken, just plain stupid in that it empower and invigorate their supposed opposition.

That is to say, this is a bigger deal than messing with Chong.

Taking issue with GP, in its roots, was similarly untenable -- you had to say "well, yes, I'm pro-dead baby seals. And, kill the whales." Since Carter, US admins have been smart enough to just let GP protest, and also go light on the prosecution afterwards. I think A$$croft has little clue what he is starting. Which fits.

Today GP remains the model of what a non-violent direct action campaign is. GP is grassroots PR. Like I said, they've gotta love this.

Interesting that we haven't heard more 'bout this, or also, as I vaguely recall, some West Coast GP action back about 6 months or so where DOJ also went out of the way to prosecute GP International heavy-handed.

--Snazzy
Greenpeace guy in the 80's or so

[dusty64]

35. Another step down the

road to fascism. Gee, I'm really surprised I've heard nothing of this outside of this forum. The corporate media is sure doing a good job of covering up any and all information that shows the true intent of "our" government.