Teacher caught in Bush "rant"

[seriousstan]

An Overland High School teacher who criticized President Bush, capitalism and U.S. foreign policy during his geography class was placed on administrative leave Wednesday afternoon after a student who recorded the session went public with the tape.

In the 20-minute recording, made on an MP3 player, teacher Jay Bennish described capitalism as a system "at odds with human rights." He also said there were "eerie similarities" between what Bush said during his Jan. 28 State of the Union address and "things that Adolf Hitler used to say."

The United States was "probably the single most violent nation on planet Earth," Bennish also said on the tape.

Bennish, who has been part of Overland's social studies faculty since 2000, did not return calls seeking comment Wednesday. Cherry Creek School District officials are investigating the incident, but no disciplinary action has been taken, district spokeswoman Tustin Amole said.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3560566

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

1. What subject is he teaching?

The United States was "probably the single most violent nation on planet Earth," Bennish also said on the tape.

Hope he isn't teaching history.

[seriousstan]

5. Geography

[LostinVA]

6. See, I agree with him

Rwanda, etc. ARE violent... in a microcosm. The Unites States is volent... in a macrocosm. They slaughter, etc. their own people, and we go forth and slaughter the world... and have been since the Philippines War early in the 1900's. So, yeah, I agree with him.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Compare that to what Belgium did to the Congo. n/t

[brainshrub]

52. Have you read King Leopold's Ghost?

I'm Belgian by decent, and I had no idea what monsters the Belgians where in Congo.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. No, haven't read it.

But I got interested in Belgian colonial history after reading about Rwanda a few years back. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip.

[brainshrub]

68. It's on my top-ten list.

There is a reason the Hutus hate the Tutsis: The Tutsis were collaborators with the Belgians in a reign of terror that would make Nazis blush. At least the Nazis were gassed their victims fairly quickly; the deaths in the Congo were long, drawn out, torturous affairs.

Of course, it's not like the Tutsis had much of a choice... it was either side with the Europeans or get your hands chopped off.

[NYC]

184. That was an excellent book.

You should have mentioned Joseph Conrad's trip to Leopold's Congo, and his subsequent book, Heart of Darkness. More people have heard of and read that. I think reading King Leopold's Ghost enables better undertanding of Heart of Darkness.

[LostinVA]

53. I agree, but I'm talking about now

[John Q. Citizen]

117. Well, I'm sure there are a lot of violent nations in the history of

humans, but so far we are the only nation to drop an atomic bomb on a civilian population, twice.

That was 60 years ago and people are still dying from the effects of the radiation.

Whether one believes we were justified or not, the violence of the acts is kind of hard to top.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

119. Only one nation HAD atomic bombs when that happened.

Are you suggesting that the Soviets, Japanese, or Germans wouldn't have used them first had they developed them in time?

[John Q. Citizen]

121. I am not addressing whether nuking civilians was justifiable, only

that it was violence on a scale never before or since seen.

And of course we still have far and away more nuclear devices in our arsenal than the whole rest of the world combined.

So we certainly have the capacity to be the most violent nation on earth.

Bennish said we are "probably the single most violent nation on planet Earth," and while that may be debatable, it is certainly not over the top in any sense, nor is it a statement that is somehow indefensible.

[tn-guy]

185. Actually, neither Hiroshima or Nagasaki were that outstanding

If one looks at history it is pretty obvious that neither atomic bombs were "violence on a scale never before or since seen."

The violence done as part of Hitler's "Final Solution", the mass state-directed starvation in the Ukraine and the Killing Fields of Cambodia make Hiroshima and Nagasaki pale by comparison. Even if one dismisses those as saying they were not part of a single act the fire-bombing of Dresden or Tokyo were both much more destructive of human life.

I'm not trying to say that dropping atomic bombs was not a momentous event; but to claim that those two events were somehow on a different scale than other WWII violence is simply not supported by the facts.

[John Q. Citizen]

218. I hadn't thought of Dresden, but as far as an American participation

in an act of violence, it's a good call. Still, the A bombs on Japan signified a lot more than just the body count. It was the beginning of a whole new era of violence so terrible and terrifying everyone said it couldn't be used. It's more significant far and away than Dresdan as a whole new way of life.

In a way it one upped the German's methodical terror and violence and replaced it with the violence of instant total annihilation, so not just the victims get wiped out but everybody everywhere. It replaced the 5 year plan with the 15 minute plan.

I don't believe for a minute that anybody anywhere is especially immune nor predisposed to anymore or less violence than anybody else, but that circumstances and events play a greater roll than where on the earth someone happens to reside. Ultimatly we are all humans and it's up to the sane ones to require the out of control ones to chill. Even if the out of control ones are from our own nation or not.

But i don't believe that what that teacher had to say was particularly unfair or untrue.

I think the bush crime family should shape up and quit lying and murdering. We need a little 21st century justice to impeach the intire family and thier minions. Teachers shouldn't have to worry about teaching geography because the facts are uncomfortable for some people. That's what education is all about, someone challenging you to examine the facts, to test the facts.

[tn-guy]

227. I don't want to hijack this thread but.......

The whole issue of atomic/nuclear weapons utterly refutes the drivel about "American imperialism" that one hears being spouted so often.

Consider the development of the atomic bomb, WWII and the immediate aftermath.

At the close of 1945 Germany and Japan were in ruins; France was desolated; the USSR had suffered millions of casualties and much of the western part had been laid waste; Great Britain was exhausted and in financial peril. Few today realize that rationing in the UK didn't end until the end of the decade, years after the war was over.

At the same time the US was the preeminent-eminent world power. The US had naval task forces (a sub-unit of a fleet) that were larger than the entire navies of every other nation with the possible exception of Great Britain. Our air force was second to none. Our army was considerably stronger at the end of the war than at its start. At that time we were the only nation that possessed atomic weapons and the means to deliver them. Yet what was America's reaction at the end of the war? It was simple: "Bring the boys home!". The US demobilized as a dizzying speed, to the extent that we were hard-pressed to fight a minor war in Korea only 5 years later.

Had we desired to establish an empire at the close of WWII we could have done so and no nation could have stopped us. The only constraint on our actions was our own sense of what we wanted. The President and Congress knew the American people wanted nothing of conquest and that attitude stuck.

I readily acknowledge that as a nation we have done some shameful things. I know that we exert a large influence on the world due to military, economic and cultural power and that that is not always good. However; I am rather tired of those who want to whine about our imperialism when they have no concept of what life is like under a true imperialistic rule.

Part of my objection to the teacher's rant is that he was failing to do a proper job as a teacher and spark discussion rather than just bloviate. I'll also confess that part of my objection is also that he was declaring falsehood and warped opinion to be fact.

[BoneDaddy]

266. I tend to agree

We often get into these platitudenal (is that even a word? if not, it is my creation) discussions about whether or not America is the Greatest, best country in the world or it is the worst most satanic in the world. It has been both in my opinion.

As for this teacher, I have to be intellectually honest and say that if he was spewing forth a rush limbaugh type of republican speech would I feel the same way. When I think of it that way a couple things come clear to me.
1. Is a teacher's job to promote only one opinion or to encourage imaginative, logical and rational criticism on their own?
2. What if what the teacher was saying is true? If they are going to say that this man is engaging in slander or libel (if he puts it in writing) isn't the best defense the truth? I read his comments and although I think they were inflammatory, I don't necessarily think they are untrue.
3. Or does the media seek to make an example of him and attack the liberal view in ecucation like they have been trying to do for years.

Where I certainly think that this man is passionate about what he believes and I tend to agree with him, but is he abusing his responsibility as a teacher to remain relatively non-partisan, understanding that he will encounter students who have a different view and he needs to remain professional regardless of his beliefs.

I don't know I see both sides. Sometimes I, too, feel like screaming at the top of my lungs to an auditorium of people begging them to wake up and take back our country, to rail on BushCo and to try and spark concern in the eyes of others.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

268. if i recall right

there are still bases in Germany, Italy and Okinawa...

[bpilgrim]

267. you repeat a few misconceptions

the violence unleashed by a single bomb(squared), on the civilians of a defeated nation suing for peace was certainly UNPRECEDENTED... and in hiroshima alone, the death toll is close to a quarter million, which exceeds Tokyo and Dresden combined.

that terrorism will be remembered as one of the most evil (not 'outstanding') acts of wwII.

our first global SHOCK-n-AWE



just imagine how many the neoCONs have in mind :scared:

peace

[TankLV]

219. No doubt about it.

The soviet union, and ESPECIALLY the Japanese and Germans WERE desperately trying to be the first to use it - we just beat them fortunately.

Anybody who doubts this is an idiot and a fool of the worst sort.

[John Q. Citizen]

220. Droping a bomb on people, whether it's Germans Japanese,

Americans, or Eskamos, is a terrorist act. So I see where the teacher was coming from...

bush is criminal! Say it loud and clear, Brothers and Sisters!

[TankLV]

254. I will NOT disagree with you at all.

Blessed are the peace makers.

[LynnTheDem]

241. We will never know, will we. What we DO know is America nuked

innocent human beings.

[WinkyDink]

257. There is no profit in an argument of "If", when one is dealing in evidence

[reprobate]

142. To Yibbe and John Q. A little perspective is in order.

While there has been sufficient violence in other countries to gag any human, the teacher was right in talking about violence and capitalism being connected.

Just one example: Since the late 19th century the United States has invaded Latin America fifty two times. I'm talking about 'boots on the ground' invaded, with guns. EVERY time it was to aid a corporation whose profits were in danger from a political decision within the target country. This, the entwining of government and corporate leadership is one of the Fourteen Points of Fascism. AFAIK we are the only nation - besides nazi Germany - in which this has been so.

So, when it comes to violence perpetrated against onther nation, we stand almost alone, but with a very select companion.

[John Q. Citizen]

148. I had no problem with the the teachers remarks. However

fascism has existed in a number of countries.

What is AFAIK?

[NYC]

188. AFAIK is "as far as I know".

I didn't notice any answer to your question. If already answered, excuse the duplication.

[John Q. Citizen]

198. Thanks NYC! n/t

[reprobate]

230. As Far As I Know.

[Smarmie Doofus]

155. I don't doubt that it's true, but.....

what is your source for the "52 times" figure?

[reprobate]

229. Follow this link

US Invasios of Latin America

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

240. Some of those aren't "invasions"

I'd hardly call the Cuban missile crisis an invasion.

[reprobate]

245. True. But IIRC the list has 53. I deducted that one.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

224. Was communism any better?

Human greed is not confined to any one economic theory.

[reprobate]

232. We have never seen true communism on this planet.

Russia and China were not Communist, but despotisms. And I agree that even true communism falls far short of perfection.

Surely there must be a happy compromise between eligarchy and rule by the masses. I tend to lean toward the 'social democrat' idea as used by the former Viking nations.


I think that humankind will not reach it's potential until we find that compromise. If life on earth lasts that long with George "The Terminator" Bush at the helm, steering directly towards the ecological iceburg ahead.

Perhaps the economic system from Star Treck could be appropriated.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

236. It's interesting that you refer to them that way,

As the Viking nations. Historically speaking, not a people known for their lack of violence. :)

[reprobate]

244. Most were farmers. Their descendants learned peace. Will ours?

[jonnyo]

256. Not really true. Communal style living and economics works pretty well at

the tribal level and exists all over the planet. What we saw in Russia, etc. is more akin to Marxism, but, anyway, communism can't seem to function in communities that start to number over 100. That seems to be the sociological threshold where people start to click off into smaller groups and start competing against each other socially. Once societies start to add members it becomes easier for people to use the shield of the crowd to maintain a certain annonomity which allows them to pursue the kind of explotative activities you see the bigger attempts at communism. It devolves into totalitarinism rather quickly as the winning side seeks to maintain individual powers.

[reprobate]

261. Very well put, Jonnyo. Thanks for the input.

[Overseas]

143. So if I find another violent country then we're off the hook ?

>>> Very convenient !! So if Tom deLay is corrupt but Dick Cheney is worse, then golly, Tom's off the hook too, I guess... Just find someone worse and you are excused !! Fabulous !!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

225. Nobody is off the hook for anything.

I am simply suggesting that the idea that there is a "most violent country" is silly, because it all depends on how you want to define violence.

[CAcyclist]

160. So compare that to what we did to the Indians

and the blacks. I don't see us looking any better than Belgium.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

226. It isn't a contest. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Rwanda is violent in a microcosm?

Half of central Africa was at war with various other bits of itself for most of the past ten years. I hardly call that a microcosm.

[LostinVA]

51. You aren't getting what I mean

The US goes into other parts of the world for NO reason but imperialism and destroys it -- we've been doing that for over one hundred years. The horrible stuff in Africa is "local." They are not going to Iraq or England or Costa Rica and doing it. And, I think the US should have intervened in many cases in African countries (Rwanda, etc.) to help stop the bloodshed.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. Imperialism != violence.

If you want to talk about imperialism, fine. The United States is clearly has the highest imperial aspirations.

[zann725]

88. I fail to see what teach said or did wrong (1st Amend).The person at fault

and should be suspended IS the student who recorded (WITHOUT) teacher's knowledge OR approval, recorded the teacher's opinions. We're all still allegedly allowed opinions in Amerika, right? And the teacher was NOT
"teaching" the things he was saying, he was simply having "dialogue" with students. I thought that WAS part of teaching...to "open dialogue"...make students think. I most respect, and most clearly remember THOSE teachers of mine, who encouraged and intiated "dialogue" WITH students, didn't simply "recite" our schoolbook lessons. These are the teachers who taught me to "think". And a very vital part of what a student should learn in ANY school is how to question, analyze, and look at things from different perspectives (called "thinking").

This teacher was NOT telling these students this was the Truth...simply discussing the similiarities between current events and past "history." Sounds like a "teacher" by definition to me.

I'd suspend the kid, and have him hiked on down to the Principal's office to be suspended, if not written up by the police OR A.C.L.U. for taping a U.S. Citizen WITHOUT that person's knowledge or consent. This kid's destined to be a Joe Scarborough, or the like..."my way or the highway."

[Ben Ceremos]

94. Correct.

Gagging teachers will lower the quality of what little education students get.
Student violated teachers right to privacy, but no US court will rule in favor these days.

[QuettaKid]

98. in regards to taping without permission

see this thread. It's called "one party consent"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x554779

[trixie]

103. I'm going to have to disagree - vehemently

I am very, very left wing. Our family has been in activism for generations. I do not want my public school teachers to put their own personal dogma into lessons. I am all for having teachers assign apposing points of views on topics. Create an assignment where the kids seek out the points of views and moderate a discussion of their findings. The Nazi youth groups were started in schools by government officials who taught ideology of the state and pounded it into the kids. No matter what side of politics you are on you have to allow room for students to investigate for themselves.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

118. I agree with Trixie

The teacher was way out of line. Further, the student, as a paying customer (or the offspring of the paying customers) was justified for taping the lecture. What expectation of privacy do you find with a teacher giving a lecture/harangue in a classroom setting?

[fshrink]

145. So you think that such a thing as

"objective" knowledge exists. Problem is that it doesn't. Besides, who said that the teacher didn't leave room for investigation? His is as good a starting point as any.

[trixie]

147. I wonder if you would feel the same way when a freeper

is the teacher. :shrug:

[fshrink]

152. It is usually the case. Not to mention

that religion is indeed "hammered" into the heads of all children, at all times, everywhere, and without any particular moral qualms from most people.

[trixie]

154. Hence the start of mass homeschoolers in the 70s

Homeschooling has been hijacked by the religious right but it started out as a way for liberals who disliked the religion/state direction of public schools to control the education of their children.

[manic expression]

167. If

they taped this hijacking, what would have come of it? Absolutely nothing. In addition, this hijacking was not a simple political statement by a teacher which could have been objected to without trouble, it was institutionalized and prevelant everywhere, it was something that was truly forced. However, when a liberal viewpoint is expressed in an academic setting with no restrictions on opposing viewpoints (as far as we, along with everyone else, know), there is a big problem.

Free? Who said free? Certainly not me.

[manic expression]

163. I will disagree with you

why? Because the teacher was expressing an opinion. Anyone could have challenged him, and the people who had a problem with it should have. Instead, the person who had a problem recorded a teacher's expression with no notice and tried to silence that point of view.

If the teacher did not let anyone offer a different point of view, THAT would have been wrong, but he didn't. He simply spoke his mind, and that is not accepted in America if it is an undesirable expression.

[tn-guy]

190. I will disagree with your disagreement

There is a consider difference in the relative power of a teacher and a high school student. Professional ethics should compel a teacher to lead discussions in a way to encourage students to think for themselves rather than regurgitate the teacher's point of view.

I have listened to the recording multiple times and quite frankly, it didn't sound to me like the teacher was expressing opinions. What I heard was a teacher asserting his opinions as fact and refusing to honestly address questions that the students raised.

That being said, should the teacher face any disciplinary action? I think now. I do think he needs some counseling on how to approach his job in a more professional manner. To me his biggest offense is not that he was "indoctrinating" students but rather that he was cheating them. I doubt any of the students who sat through that lecture actually learned anything useful. Wasting students' time is a terrible offense.

[manic expression]

205. I will disagree with........

There is a considerable difference between forcing opinions and expressing them. If he did not allow any student to voice an opposing position, that would have been unacceptable. He wasn't expecting the students to regurgitate anything, there were to be no tests on his positions, it was the simple act of a politically charged speech/rant/oration/whatever.

Expressing an opinion can and does include the act of saying it as fact. That happens oftentimes, not excluding in classrooms. It's only a problem when the opinion is not popular and at odds with the establishment.

Waste of time? This, this is an expression of ideas. To restrict that is a waste of a classroom.

[tn-guy]

214. whole lot of disagreeing going on

Have you actually listened to the recording? I did. In the whole ~20 minutes how much time was spent by actual students contributing to the discussion? More to the point, was there any discussion?

This was supposed to be an advanced class, meaning that these would supposedly be the brighter students. Those would be the ones most likely to participate in classroom discussion provided the teacher established an environment where student participation was encouraged.

Listen to the recording. What you will hear is not a debate, not a discussion, not any sort of Socratic teaching. What you will hear will be a one-sided barrage by the teacher. And to be precise, I mean one-sided not in the sense of presenting multiple sides but in the sense that he did the talking and the students did the listening.

I repeat what I said before, this issue here is not that the teacher held or expressed unpopular views. The problem that needs to be addressed is that, based on what is admittedly a small sample, he is a poor teacher. Anyone can stand up and pontificate in front of a class of high school students. It takes a skilled teacher to get those students to take enough interest in the material to involve themselves in the class discussion. The teacher in question fell way short of that.

[manic expression]

242. You can listen

to hours of teachers without hearing a whisper of student interaction. It's called a lecture, and it happens in the most advanced schools.

If the only complaint that can be mustered against the teacher's words (besides their content) is that the class was too "one-sided", that complaint should be applied to quite a few more classes. One-sided teaching happens all the time, there is no problem with it.

It became an issue because of what the views were. If he was ranting about inclement weather, I doubt there would be really any problem. The teacher may not have engaged the students in discussion, but that in itself is a problem that only applies to teaching style used during 20 minutes of class. Are you really saying that teachers do not lecture for 20 minutes, or for 45 minutes, or for hours? They do so often. If he merely "fell short", in your view, in this regard (style of teaching), that is grounds for AT MOST a meeting, while a suspension is beyond preposterous.

[tn-guy]

247. Now we're agreeing

I don't think he should be suspended either. As I said in an earlier post (#190) "I do think he needs some counseling on how to approach his job in a more professional manner."

I also agree that teachers often lecture for 20, 30, 50 minutes at a time. I just think that if one is conducting an "Advanced World Geometry" class one would be more effective if the students were engaged in a class discussion rather than passively sitting through a lecture/rant/oration (pick your choice). To me lecture seems to be more suited to classes where objective facts are being presented, such as mathematics or the hard sciences. For subjects like literature, history, etc. discussion seems to be more appropriate.

Even if a teacher chooses a lecture style he owes it to his students to entertain and offer legitimate answers to reasonable questions. Listen to the recording and you will hear the teacher in question fail to do so.

[manic expression]

248. Yes we are

Well, I think that engaging students in discussion is always better for teaching (excluding mathematics and most science), but it depends on the teacher and it depends on the class. It is neither invalid nor is it inappropriate to give political opinions to a class.

In many lectures, no questions are offered. From what I can tell, the teacher was offering thought-provoking ideas to the class. The only real problem here is what those ideas were, not the manner in which they were expressed.

[tn-guy]

252. disagreeing again, but a small one

Actually my problem with him was the manner in which his opinions were expressed. I think a little bit of, "OK, what do you think?" followed by, "Why do you think that way?" would have gone a long way toward helping the students learn to think critically and learn to express their opinions in a coherent manner. That there was absolutely none of that in the 20 minutes I heard was very sad.

[tn-guy]

213. late correction to my post

"...should the teacher face any disciplinary action? I think now." I intended to say, "I think not."

Sorry for any confusion my mistake caused.

[adigal]

111. Sean Hannity regularly tells kids to tape their teachers

if the teacher expresses any views against dear Leader, and to call him with the tape and he will play it and have the kid on his show.

[Overseas]

144. But the teacher PUT A HEX ON THE KIDS !!

The teacher blasphemed against our Annointed Leader (who feels he has been called by God to lead us) !! And he gave his opinion which will bewitch and corrupt our youth !! We need a fatwah against all those who blaspheme our infallible God CHosen administration.

[musical_soul]

151. That stuff is mostly for college.

Colleges have adults in them that can hopefully discuss without it causing a disruption. In high schools, you have to stick to the facts and not bring a lot of opinion into it. Otherwise, it comes off as trying to force an opinion. It's very important for minors to not be placed in such a position. Same goes for if a right winger is putting their opinion in the plan too much.

[CAcyclist]

161. Funny, I remember my history lessons being all about opinion

I remember very clearly the books' free trade slant, which never made sense to me even back in high school in a conservative town before I was enlightened.

I remember my teachers talking about how the slaves were well-taken care of and not abused.

There was a lot of opinion then and then still is - all I ask is for some evidence for any controversial claim. That would effectively silence the right-wingers who want to spout clap-trap without any evidence.

[gtar100]

221. H.S. History can hardly be called sticking to the "facts"

Where are all the references to Columbus enslaving the Arawak's? Or the extermination of multitudes of tribes as we encroached upon their land? Sorry, even when an entire chapter covers the "Indian" issues, they gloss over the devastation and hardship Europeans caused the Native Americans. Are they given any facts about the *real* conditions on slave ships? Are high school students taught that Abraham Lincoln really didn't care a whit about abolishing slavery until it became a strategic necessity? The North didn't fight the civil war to free the slaves...are high school students aware of the real reasons?

Or do they have an appreciation of the struggle of working men and women through the years? Are they shown how without their revolts and sacrifices that often cost them years of abject poverty and even death, the working class would be putting in 12 to 18 hours a day, six days a week from childhood on. The total lack of respect for labor unions says to me that students are not being given the "facts", but only a select subset which allow the ownership class to cover up or justify their abuses.

Our students are leaving high school and even college with very little understanding of the multitude of forces that have shaped history. My daughter in high school can grasp all kinds of nuance in history, so we can't use the excuse that they aren't ready for it. It's not that they need to understand everything in full. They should be led to question and hunger for clearer answers, not to just recite a set of "facts".

If we really taught kids history that truly reaches them, shows them where they are in the time line and how they got there, they'd probably show a lot more interest. As it is, they are taught a lot of crap that means very little to them unless they are part of the elite classes who actually profit and control through the conflicts they cause and the wars they start that are then taught as "THE" events of history.

Teach the stories of their people and they will listen.

[napsi]

180. The 1st amendment

gives him the right to say it without the govt. censuring him, jailing him or worse. It doesn't protect him from the consequences of his actions. Teach the course you are charged with teaching and leave the politics aside.

[LeaveIraqNow]

195. It is still inappropriate.

We would not be okay if that teacher was spouting republican talking points instead of teaching the required material. Schools are very clear that they don't tolerate any disruption that would distract from the lesson. In college this would be acceptable but not in high school. 20 minutes is a significant portion of class time and this is obviously not the first time it happened.

[Castilleja]

215. Absolutely

yes, yes, yes

[adigal]

115. District phone number below

Cherry Creek School District
303-773-1184

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. social studies...

which includes history.

Currently, we are one of the most violent countries on earth. Crime rate here and the things we are doing in the ME, not to mention what we have done in the Philippines, Panama Canal, Columbia, etc. He's not that far off. :(

[seriousstan]

12. No, he teaches Geography class......

as per the article....

Sean, who described himself as a political independent, said the comments seemed inappropriate for a geography class.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

14. thanks, I had to go with what was in the clip

I'm having trouble accessing the article. :shrug:

[sui generis]

131. inappropriate to suspend the teacher pending investigation

that's just over the fucking top.

Teachers are allowed to have opinions. If there was an issue with how the teacher was sharing his opinion, then correct the issue. Suspending the teacher for that fuckfaced little freeper-in-training was just wrong.

[NashVegas]

165. Geography Is Under the Social Studies Umbrella

At least it was in my high school.

To specialize in Geography is to know not just the maps, but the history of the territory.

[Bassic]

26. That and most of South America really. nt

[Toots]

18. Why can you think of a more violent country?

I guess it depends on how you describe violence. Darfar uses machetes and we use White Phosphorus. :shrug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. Sure, it depends on how you describe violence.

But look at the Second Congo War and everything else that's happened in central Africa since then. I don't think there's any comparison in modern history. Certainly not modern American history.

[alarcojon]

65. Our colonial history is violent on a vast scale

Let's not forget the genocide of the native people's and slavery, both seminal, long-standing events in our history. Of course, our treatment of native people's and the descendants of slaves has left deep, lasting impacts to this day. Then, of course there is our long, despicable, and entirely consistent history of interventions all over the world, to the point where today most Americans feel we have every right to attack any country we like, as long as it is properly cloaked in the language of "spreading freedom" and/or "fighting terrorism." And let's recall our use (twice) of a nuclear weapon, and our uses of agent orange, white phosphorus, depleted uranium, cluster bombs, and just general "shock and awe"; and that's just the stuff we know about. Lastly, let's not forget the state of our culture, rife as it is with violence - crime, guns, draconian laws including the death penalty, high imprisonment rates, poverty amidst plenty, etc. etc.

Not that I approve of this teacher's behavior, but just to suggest that he is right that we are the most violent nation on earth.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. Almost every colonizer's history is violent on a vast scale.

And when you're talking about a superpower, nearly every important concept happens "on a vast scale." To say that there is something fundamentally special or unique about the way the US went about it is absurd. America is a violent country, no doubt about it. But the most violent? I don't even know how you'd go about defining that. Violent in terms of crime? We're hardly the most violent in terms of crime. In terms of war? Iraq is bad, but it's nothing compared to what's gone on in Africa in the past fifteen years. In terms of imperial/agressive behavior? Hell, Saddam had two wars to his credit before we came along. The imperial / resource-mongering behavior of some of the countries in central Africa is obscene. And in terms of imperialism right now China is certainly breathing down our necks.

What I see here is that everybody's using their own tailor-made definition of violence that just happens to fit what they perceive, as Americans, as being the violent or bad things about their culture. I don't think an appelation like "The Most Violent Country" really means much of anything. And if he is a teacher of History he should understand that concept.

[alarcojon]

76. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here

But I suggest you admit that you also use your own personal definition of violence to fit with your view of the world.

BTW, I didn't express support of the teacher expressing his views in his Geography classroom - that is a separate issue. Unfortunately, I can't hear the audio at the moment, so I will hold off judgment on that until later, but it seems to me he is crossing a professional line. I know something of these matters, having been a college professor for eleven years.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. I'm not trying to use a definition of "violence."

That's been my point - that you can't rationally debate this issue without defining what you mean by violence. I gave several different possible meanings to disprove the notion that any one country could be considered the "most violent."

'twas a pleasure discussing this with you. Very interesting conversation.

[jahyarain]

139. alarcojon

you were exactly right the first time

[alarcojon]

146. Yes, I think so too

but you can't convince everyone all of the time.

Thanks.

[shanti]

62. the teacher is right

the u.s. IS a very violent country, we started violently. it's not just about "war" either. americans in general are violent and enjoy it. check out what is watched on teevee and the movies, etc. etc.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

67. Nearly ALL countries started violently.

Either through wars that consolidated the power of a particular group over another, territorial union following war, internal revolution, postcolonial civil wars, and on and on and on - they were either born out of or evolved through war and violence. There is nothing fundamentally special in terms of violence about the creation of America.

[Ben Ceremos]

96. Perhaps the fact that

the US has institutionalized the use of violence on a vast scale, transforming the "human impulse to dominate" into an economic model backed by military might, turning what was once considered an aberration, war, into a way of life, would sustain the claim? Colonialism was bad, but imperialism has an ethic of violence that could be absent from colonial pretensions. Violence is "natural", humans have successfully integrated the violence into the social model and the political theatre. Any ideas...?

[sui generis]

130. whatever are you trying to say?

if you're counting deaths instead of wars, then China wins, not Germany.

If you're counting wars, then the U.S. wins hands down.

We ARE a violent nasty tempered nation, and there are geographical outcomes of political systems and war.

A geography teacher most certainly has the right to draw comparisons when discussing geopolitical boundaries.

[oblivious]

253. That is reported speech. In direct speech that would be "The U.S. is...".

At the present time.

[stepnw1f]

2. I find Nothing Wrong with What he Said

but some obviously do and are getting their way.

[Rose Siding]

3. Geeze, the kid taped him to bust him,

saying he should be giving "both sides". I wonder how much longer the tape would need to run to prove that he DIDN'T do that.

[KittyWampus]

57. Remember the college GOP'ers who were PAID to record their professors

I wonder if the kid or his father heard about how GOP'ers were paying students to record and inform on professors and decided to do their own version. Not for money, but fame?

Am also reminded of that father who went around with his kids getting purposely "vicitimized" by liberals.

[NashVegas]

172. I Put the Blame Squarely On the School Administrators

Listen to the clip if you can, and tell me if you think Bennish sounds like someone who's going to enlighten / inform 16 year olds, or make them think they're sitting there wasting their time while he rants?

[wake.up.america]

4. Where is the problem? Can't a teacher offer his opinion?

[still_one]

8. not in the village

[newblewtoo]

15. not what they are paid for

Every one is entitled to his or her own opinion, teachers are paid to teach facts, not opinions. Think of it this way would you want a r-winger to rant all day? If you cannot divorce your opinion from the facts you do not belong in a classroom. Learning and independent thought does not come from indoctrination.

[Evergreen Emerald]

29. teachers are paid to teach children to think.

The media characterized it as a "rant." It sounds like the opening of a discussion.

[ladjf]

38. I was a music teacher for many years. I never would have felt

free to make partisan "rants" to my students. I might have occasionally mentioned something about nuclear proliferation or the environment, general things like that.

[Evergreen Emerald]

45. "Rant" is a biased term that is not necessarily accurate

I can see a geography class dealing with issues such as this. I would like to know the context and the purpose and the conversation that took place.

Certainly my daughter comes home talking about all sorts of discussions her classroom had. I do not understand what is wrong with this...had he opened the discussion with something like, "the US is the greatest country in the world and never causes violence," there would not be this much outrage--and yet it would be inaccurate.

[ladjf]

58. It's funny. About the only way one can get a response is when

another DU'er wants to quibble of the precise definition of some term that was used.

I know what it means to rant. I used the term since it was already in use in this discussion.

My only point was that the teacher wasn't hired to make strong pro or anti statements about politics. And if the geography teacher had made a lecture about how to play a band instrument, I would have felt that he was out of bounds.

[Laelth]

81. Georgaphy is politics.

All those lines on maps that divide countries are political boundaries, and the only way to understand how those lines got there is to understand the politics that created them (often violent conflict).

-Laelth

[Evergreen Emerald]

101. exactly.

It is more of the neo-conservatives attempting to inhibit a free exchange of ideas.

"Rant:" was used in the article. You missed my point. I was referring to the media bias as evidenced in the use of the term "rant." I was not referring to your use of the term.

[brainshrub]

138. I fail to see how ranting about Bush teaches kids where Argentina is.

Just sayin'.

[fshrink]

141. Because geography is not just the list

of what is where. It is also the study of the dynamics of the disposition of the resources on the planet. Similarly, history is not only the chronological list of what happened in the past.

[NashVegas]

176. Very Much So

But it's still a rant and has no place in the classroom.

Teacher sounds like he's having a very bad day.

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. Think about the reasons those boundaries are where they are

Texas, for example. It is part of the US because of a bloody war.

There is a whole lot more to geography than boundaries.

:hi:

[ladjf]

211. I would agree that politics is largely about geography but perhaps

not the other way around.

[Ben Ceremos]

99. He would not be suspended

for making a comment about music, band instruments or even his preference for a particular sort or style of music. Your falling into a straw man fallacy. The teachers opinion only became an issue because of the corroded political atmosphere that exists in the "Useless A" currently.
Geography includes geopolitics, the nature of governments in other lands, the distribution of resources, the economic system, the benefits and pitfalls, the range of rights, and much more. A good teaching plan integrates these issues into the discussion periods.
Frankly, if a teacher can't express opinions in class, the class loses out on the experience the teacher has (also) been hired to relate.

[brainshrub]

223. Yes. Especially is the teacher ranted against the tuba.

Agree 100%.

[NashVegas]

173. Have You Listened to the Clip

It's a rant. Not a lecture, not an exchange of ideas, but a rant. He's not sharing an opinion, he's pounding it.

Anyway, it's not really 'free' speech if you've got a captive audience.

[manic expression]

179. How many restrictions

were placed on the expression of opposing opinions?

[NashVegas]

183. Please Put the 1st Amendment Aside

Because I really don't think that's the issue, here.

This teacher's behavior in the classroom would be offputting and inconducive to learning no matter what was coming out of his mouth, politically.

I even agree with most of what he said, but if my kid were in that class, I'd demand to be able to pull him or her out and put them with a different teacher.

[manic expression]

203. It is quite the issue

this is really a limitation on expression of an unpopular opinion. If he was ranting about gas prices, it wouldn't be a problem; if he was ranting about shoveling snow, it wouldn't be a problem; if he was ranting about chalk dust, it wouldn't be a problem. However, he was "ranting" against Bush and the establishment, so it is a problem.

If people want to pull him out of their class, that is possible to do without suspending a teacher.

[ladjf]

235. It's not a matter of what he said. It's about where he said it and

to whom as that related to what he was supposed to be saying.

[NashVegas]

175. He Was Not Trying to Teach Them to Think

He was telling them what to think.

I stopped listening to the clip about 7 minutes in. Maybe there was a Q & A session where he gave the kids a chance to put forth what they thought, and challenged their logic, but I'm guessing not.

[mbperrin]

206. I listened start to finish. In several places, he urged students to

make up their own minds, to think about it from a different point of view, but to make up their own minds. He even encouraged the taper, who asserted that Iraq was connected to 911, to think about how people in other countries think of us and never ridiculed the young man's obvious misinformation. He's a young teacher and enthusiastic, and his style of direct instruction is what is taught in many education classes - with time and experience, he'll learn to pace himself as well as find more subtle ways to induce critical thinking, but cognitive dissonance is certainly one way. Many of his students must really like him since 100 of them walked out and risk suspension over their actions supporting him - surely this must weigh a bit.

Surely we would like to hear the whole case before deciding it - because only 20 minutes of the class was included - but don't we owe it to fairness to at least listen to the record we have?

Thanks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Maybe "teachers" are, but PROFESSORS are paid to profess

Besides, the dubious distinction between facts and opinions is an opinion all its own.

That said, this guy was way out of line in a high school geography class, and should be suspended. They have curricula approved by school boards, and specific criteria for what goes on. If he wants to profess in that matter, he should go and get his frigging PhD, and fight for a university teaching job. ;-)

[enlightenment]

135. Ah. And teaching the approved curricula

is the reason why more and more college kids can't THINK.

It's tough to "profess" (and I am a professor) when your class is sitting there waiting for you to pour the knowledge in their ear (and watch it dribble out the other side).

I spend an incredible amount of time teaching the critical thinking skills that college students should already have; apparently because it is not being taught in high school (lost in the shuffle of NCLB). I would rather be discussing history, but without the ability to comprehend the logic of argument my students are at a tremendous disadvantage. History is based in fact -- but history is not, in itself, fact; and understanding that difference is key.

I WISH more high school teachers were courageous enough to spend time shaking the convictions of their students, and I am sick of hearing students whine that they're afraid of punishment so they wouldn't DREAM of debating what their teacher said. Instead, they'll just complain to the administration.

[wake.up.america]

92. OK. I did not realize he had been ranting without allowing a discussion...

to take place.

[mike_c]

102. I disagree, and I'm a professional educator....

A major part of what good teachers offer is an intellectual PERSPECTIVE that is generally lacking from other aspects of students' life. How an intellectual person interprets information, how they integrate it into a broader world view, and how they test that world view's validity. Teaching "facts" is only the barest beginning of education.

[newblewtoo]

194. I listened to the tape

which sounded more like a 'rant' than a discussion. Feel free to disagree. I agree facts are only the beginning of education but a necessary beginning. I spent close to thirty years instructing in a post secondary environment. I strongly disagree with suspension on a first offense.

[trixie]

104. Excellent

:applause:

[stanwyck]

107. but that's not teaching

what you're describing is not teaching, but reciting. A world of difference. You're right, of course, that we progressives wouldn't want a rightwing fundamentalist spouting their rhetoric at captive students. Yet, that's what we're seeing happening as the right pushes their agenda.
Independent thought comes from being challenged and opening up discussion for the sharing of ideas.
Students who disagree with their teacher should express their views and contribute to the dialog.
No doubt what this teacher was hoping would happen.
But your description of a teacher is ludicrous You're describing a mynah bird, not a teacher.

[trixie]

108. Incorrect

A teacher's job is to lay out the historical aspects and teach how to research. Sitting and listening to a teacher preach is not teaching. Sending kids out to find out their own assignments through research is teaching.

[stanwyck]

122. depends on how good a school

your child attends. I'm sure the mediocre schools offer "teachers" who merely "lay out the historical aspects". But, again, that's not teaching.
Teaching means bringing in a larger perspective and provoking thought. It's not preaching. It's stimulating minds to challenge what they're hearing, offer their own viewpoints, and listen to a variety of thinking. It's learning in 3-D.
Perhaps you're not acquainted with true teaching.
And that is sad.

[adigal]

114. IF my high school son had a teacher ranting right wing points

I would encourage my child to educate himself so that he could logically and intelligently refute the teacher's points.

That is what an education is about. Thinking. Sad to see that even Democrats are afraid of it.

[adigal]

158. Whose facts? This administration's facts?

Like, say, there are WMDs in Iraq, Saddam Hussein was involved in the WTC destruction, no one could have anticipated the breach in the levees??

Those facts? Because with BushCo, there are very few facts that are actually facts anymore. Perhaps the teacher was confused by this??

[ladjf]

31. I agree with most of what the teacher said. However, a public

teacher should stick to his subject matter, in this case,geography. Had I been his principal, I would have warned him to get back to the subject he was hired to teach. Then if he continued to teach the subject of politics, I would have recommended his firing.

[MissMillie]

33. not unless it's presented as HIS OPINION

and of course the kids are offered the opportunity to think critically about it, challange it, and form opinions of their own.

[Atmashine]

7. Well. That kid gets an 'F'.

[tanyev]

13. But he has a brilliant future awaiting him in the Young Republicans.

[Atmashine]

Or the Spies like in 1984

"What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. " -1984 George Orwell

[tanyev]

23. I really must re-read that book.

Guess I'd better go buy a copy now, while I still can.

[katty]

187. so the kid is spying on teach...bush luvs that hitler youth

[Thaddeus]

9. He is speaking truth

and being punished for it, no doubt having a chilling effect on others.

Creeping fascism, or just an anomaly?

[Minnesota Libra]

11. "eerie similarities"between Bush and Adolf Hitler says it all......

....but of course we can't have anyone telling the truth these days. :grr:

[daleo]

156. Having a student tape the class and report the teacher

Is an eerie similarity all on its own.

[brainshrub]

16. I agree with the school on this.

It's a high school geography class, not a political science course. The teacher is paid to teach geography, not rant about Bush to a captive audience.

To be sure, there should be some leeway... but this student wouldn't have brought an MP3 player to school if the teacher wasn't going over the the top regularly.

[sarcasmo]

22. Then in the Political Science class the teacher says the same thing.

I would bet the teacher would get suspended too, what a Joke this country has become.

[brainshrub]

34. That depends.

If the PS teacher introduced Democrats as a vile political party - and GW Bush was the wisest, most glorious leader in history... I would expect that teacher would be suspended as well.

I'm saying this not because I disagree with the teacher, but at that point it's obvious that the instructor is unable to teach a factual class on Political Science.

In high school I had a Republican history teacher, he was one of the best I ever had. He expressed his opinions all the time, but he worked damn hard to teach history first and express his opinions second. Even his Liberal students loved him. (Myself included.)

[sarcasmo]

44. I would doubt that. This is an environment that if you say something

bad about the Dictator you get punished. Think of all the negative talk in the classroom over Clinton's impeachment, were their teachers suspended then. Folks what we now live in, is a Dictatorship.

[brainshrub]

48. Even if we do live in a dictatorship:

Even if we do live in a dictatorship, the teacher described in the OP is a bad example as proof.

The teacher wasn't suspended because we live in an oppressive society; he forgot that he was supposed to be teaching geography.

[shanti]

56. oh come on

what context was the teacher speaking in? maybe a student asked him a question. we don't know the details here and they ARE important. the fact that he was "supposed" to be teaching geography is irrelevant, imo.

[brainshrub]

70. Listen to the tape, then come back and post.

The teacher was over the top.

[stepnw1f]

233. The Students Didn't Think So...

[ladjf]

35. You pose a difficult question. But, even had the class been

political science, I'm not sure that it would have been ethical for a teacher to take a political stand against the current administration. That would have simply been partisan politics even though what he said was true.

When we have an administration that is obviously a greedy and cruel criminal enterprise, it puts a burden on publicly funded leaders as to what to say about the political situation. If I were a teacher and felt as strongly about it as did the teacher we are discussing, I would have quit teaching and gone into active politics. (while starving)

[KittyWampus]

59. What that teacher said was not a "political stand", though. Fellow was

making empirical observations. Did you listen or read actual comments?

The student leads teacher in conversation and potentially intended to entrap him.

Teacher also talks about Clinton.

Also, geography is about more then memorizing where countries are locate on the map.

Teacher mentions US is perhaps most violent country on earth. Indisputable, though lamentable fact.

[ladjf]

209. I did read his comments and most definitely felt that he siding

against the sitting president. I don't know why you are worrying about the semantics of my post.

Here is my position. By in large a public teacher should stick to his subject. If you don't agree then we just don't agree.

[manic expression]

174. Geography is not just the map

it's about the history behind the countries and the people. If you ignore the history of the country and region, you are ignoring one of the most important parts of geography.

Look at a map of Central America, and an educated eye will see, in addition to countries and borders, a history of conflict, subjugation and oppression, all supported by the US.

Furthermore, it was not a captive audience, and the teacher did nothing to supress or restrict opposing viewpoints (as far as we, along with everyone else, know). If someone had an objection, they should have voiced it instead of playing the good German. If the teacher restricted an opposing viewpoint, THAT would be unacceptable, but that isn't the case here. The case here is intolerance against a certain viewpoint and its expression.

Also, MP3 players are about as numerous and common as textbooks in High Schools today, and I speak from experience.

[jschurchin]

17. Kinda funny.........

my brother lost a job for taping a meeting with his boss. Something about illegal wiretapping. Guess if it is OK for the Dictator, it's OK for high school kid's too. Ain't Amerika great!!!!!

[Briar]

19. Remember Mrs Parsons?

"'You're a traitor!' yelled the boy. 'You're a thought-criminal! You're a Eurasian spy! I'll shoot you, I'll vaporize you, I'll send you to the salt mines!'

"Suddenly they were both leaping round him, shouting 'Traitor!' and 'Thought-criminal!' the little girl imitating her brother in every movement. It was somehow slightly frightening, like the gambolling of tiger cubs which will soon grow up into man-eaters. There was a sort of calculating ferocity in the boy's eye, a quite evident desire to hit or kick Winston and a consciousness of being very nearly big enough to do so. It was a good job it was not a real pistol he was holding, Winston thought.


...

"With those children, he thought, that wretched woman must lead a life of terror. Another year, two years, and they would be watching her night and day for symptoms of unorthodoxy. Nearly all children nowadays were horrible. What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it. The songs, the processions, the banners, the hiking, the drilling with dummy rifles, the yelling of slogans, the worship of Big Brother -- it was all a sort of glorious game to them. All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children. And with good reason, for hardly a week passed in which The Times did not carry a paragraph describing how some eavesdropping little sneak -- 'child hero' was the phrase generally used -- had overheard some compromising remark and denounced its parents to the Thought Police."

1984: chapter 2

[sarcasmo]

20. Teacher no longer can have a negative opinion on the Dictator

We now officially live in a Dictatorship.

[kurth]

21. He ought to stick to names of capitals and rivers and mountains

and leave the Bush bashing to the students.

Most high school kids know what's going on, and they're not eager to die in Iraq.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Hey--I'm sure the kid who made the tape....

Will join up as soon as he graduates. He was offended by his Bush-bashing teacher, so he must be ready to introduce Freedom & Democracy to any country with oil.

I wonder whether other teachers give pro-Bush rants? Will any of them be recorded?

[Wetzelbill]

36. ha!

yeah, I bet he's all ready to ship out. :)

[adigal]

159. The boy, Republican Youth that he is, in on Hannity's radio show

today and Hannity and Colmes tonight.

Don't think he will be signing up for Iraqi adventures, although that's a great question for him to have to answer.

[manic expression]

178. Well,

I think that most High School kids are completely oblivious to what's going on. Maybe people are more anti-Bush because his general ratings are so low, but the majority of HS students are quite apathetic and in the dark when it comes to anything political. If they are "opinionated", they are likely to know nothing but be completely reactionary and RW.

At least, that's how it is in my high school.

[CornField]

24. Listen to the recording

The whole thing is available of the link in the OP.

The student who is recording, doesn't just sit idly while the teacher goes off, the student engages and pushes the teacher further. Another thing the news article seems to miss is that the teacher also speaks of Clinton's foreign policy (and earlier ones as well) as the probable catalyst for 9-11.

I just don't get this and I wouldn't get it if it were a wingnut standing up before a class on offering his opinions on world affairs. There are so few teachers who actually attempt to reach students and get them thinking outside of their own box. I wish my local public high school had teachers who cared so much about developing critical thinking skills.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. I have to be honest here

Although I agree with his rant, there was no place for that in the classroom. No more than there's room for a pro-Bush diatribe, either.

Teachers need to be very careful to focus on their students, not their own political feelings.

My son had an excellent civics teacher last year. She refused to divulge her own position, but encouraged the kids to seek out all sides of an issue before they made up their own minds. It became almost a game all year -- figuring out where she stood. But that game pushed the kids to really learn, and to learn to look at the facts.

And the facts lead to smart kids who despise being taken for suckers by the likes of Bush. The facts are on our side. We should never fear them.

[BiggJawn]

50. "The facts are on our side. We should never fear them."

Except when stating those facts jepordizes your ability to eat and stay out of the rain.

DEAR DR. JESSUP: ("Hm. 'Dr. Jessup.' Not me, m' lad. The only honorary degree I'll ever get'll be Master in Veterinary Surgery or Laureate in Embalming.") A very dangerous situation has arisen here at Isaiah and those of us who are trying to advocate something like integrity and modernity are seriously worried--not, probably, that we need to be long, as we shall probably all get fired. Where two years ago most of our students just laughed at any idea of military drilling, they have gone warlike in a big way, with undergrads drilling with rifles, machine guns, and cute little blueprints of tanks and planes all over the place. Two of them, voluntarily, are going down to Rutland every week to take training in flying, avowedly to get ready for wartime aviation. When I cautiously ask them what the dickens war they are preparing for they just scratch and indicate they don't care much, so long as they can get a chance to show what virile proud gents they are.

Well, we've got used to that. But just this afternoon--the newspapers haven't got this yet--the Board of Trustees, including Mr. Francis Tasbrough and our president, Dr. Owen Peaseley, met and voted a resolution that--now listen to this, will you, Dr. Jessup--"Any member of the faculty or student body of Isaiah who shall in any way, publicly or privately, in print, writing, or by the spoken word, adversely criticize military training at or by Isaiah College, or in any other institution of learning in the United States, or by the state militias, federal forces, or other officially recognized military organizations in this country, shall be liable to immediate dismissal from this college,

and any student who shall, with full and proper proof, bring to the attention of the President or any Trustee of the college such malign criticism by any person whatever connected in any way with the institution shall receive extra credits in his course in military training, such credits to apply to the number of credits necessary for graduation."

What can we do with such fast exploding Fascism?

VICTOR LOVELAND.

Sinclair Lewis- "It Can't Happen HERE!"

[JerseygirlCT]

116. I had to put that book down for a while

too damned scary.

[BiggJawn]

128. Yes, isn't it?

Especially with all these inbred Yay-Hoos running around the country calling themselves "Minute Men"...

[woo me with science]

238. excellent post.

one sided rants count as indoctrination, not teaching, no matter which side they come from. what you describe is exactly what i remember about the classes that taught me most in school.

[Justice]

28. Taping without consent a felony in Colorado?

http://www.rtnda.org/resources/hiddencamera/colorado.html

Did teacher consent to being taped? If not, seems like the kid violated Colorado law.

Don't you remember the person who was charged with taping Republicans' phone call without their consent (florida person??). Remember Linda Tripp taped Monica in Virgina - remember all the issues about whether or not it was permissible under state law?

[seriousstan]

32. What part of the law you sited do you think he broke, I see none.

It is perfectly legal to record a teacher in class.

[Fridays Child]

39. I'm not sure he had a "reasonable expectation of privacy."

That criterion would have to be met for the teacher to be protected by that law. Still, I'm listening to him, now, and I haven't heard him say anything that isn't accurate. This is definitely a case of shooting the messenger.

[NYC]

193. It was legal in Colorado.

One party consent is all that is required.

Alabama - One Party
Alaska - One Party
Arkansas - One Party
California - All Party
Colorado - One Party
Connecticut - All Party
Delaware - All Party
District of Columbia - One Party
Florida - All Party
Georgia - One Party
Hawaii - One Party
Idaho - One Party
Illinois - All Party
Indiana - One Party
Iowa - One Party
Kansas - One Party
Kentucky - One Party
Louisiana - One Party
Maine - One Party
Maryland - All Party
Massachusetts - All Party
Michigan - All Party
Minnesota - One Party
Mississippi - One Party
Missouri - One Party
Montana - All Party
Nebraska - One Party
Nevada - One Party
New Hampshire - All Party
New Jersey - One Party
New Mexico - One Party
New York - One Party
North Carolina - One Party
North Dakota - One Party
Ohio - One Party
Oklahoma - One Party
Oregon - One Party
Pennsylvania - All Party
Rhode Island - One Party
South Carolina - One Party
South Dakota - One Party
Tennessee - One Party
Texas - One Party
Utah - One Party
Vermont - One Party
Virginia - One Party
Washington - All Party
West Virginia - One Party
Wisconsin - One Party
Wyoming - One Party

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

30. Gee, what are the odds that this will play 24/7 with Faux talking heads?

Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. :puke:

[area51]

72. That's what I was thinking. (n/t)

[AzDar]

40. Perhaps by 'the most violent', he means in the criminal sense...

wouldn't that be TRUE?

[Jester_11218]

46. I just called the school district

I just called the school district and the school. I am trying to get the district superintendent on my radio program. I already voiced my outrage and I told them that if it was their policy to "balance" opinion then they should report the balance to the 9/11 official story, the stolen elections and the lies that led to war. I also asked them that if they were teaching a class about a child molester if the would have to balance that with good commentary about the molester.

Welcome to 1984.

[emulatorloo]

49. Did you listen to the MP3?

If you havent, take some time to do it -- it is linked on the page of the article.

JMHO, but to me -- if I were in that class, I would be disturbed and concerned about the teacher. His rant is pretty over the top, he doesn't sound rational, quite frankly it is a little scary. I am worried for the guy. While it is true that Cherry Creek is real conservative and Bush loving, it also sounds to me that this teacher needs to take a break and maybe talk to some people.

[Jester_11218]

60. Understandable rage

Over the top? If everyone felt his passion this world would be a better place!
I listened. He was kind in my opinion. He was accurate and it is about time someone taught real history in the classroom!

[superconnected]

66. true. This mans battling the Intelligent Design crowd.

Let's not let them have say over the classroom. Meanwhile real history gets this man put on administrative leave.

[ladjf]

239. The teacher might have been open to suggestion from his

administration. That should have been tried first.

Think about his hiring interview. Would he have told his interview committee that he intended to take time from the prescribed lesson plans in geography to rant that Bush was like Hitler or that Bush was like Jesus? Would he have been hired? Would he have warned his committee about that? Not likely. He'd have never gotten a job in any public school system.

[superconnected]

243. I still disagree with this because my own geography class

had us reading the world events in the news, discussing politics, the teacher talking about world events etc. It didn't only cover physical geography. I fully expect a rant like that because it's a highschool geography class.

[emulatorloo]

69. Rage is not a good teaching strategy, IMHO

Good luck with your show, though -- hope the board gets back to you. Please post a thread later to let us know.

[Jester_11218]

75. It is way overdue

Teaching strategy? Do you know how much fake or incomplete history has to be corrected? Virtually every aspect of American history is misrepresented in school. We are at a time in American history where urgency is an issue.

I heard what this guy said. He did not go far enough. He did not talk about the questions or EVIDENCE that shows that the Bush administration was involved in 9/11. He never mentioned PNAC and their quest for a new Pearl Harbor. He never mentioned the Bin Laden statement where he claimed that he had nothing to do with the attacks. Still I think this speech should be given in every classroom in the nation with the verve and urgency that it deserves.

[emulatorloo]

170. we disagree; but at any rate, the brat is enjoying a spot on Hannity

we disagree on Rage vs presenting arguments calmly & rationally, but thats ok.

At any rate the little brat is enjoying his guest spot on Hannity apparently, so I have reconsidered his motives. Here's hoping the teacher makes it out of this ok, and the Board sees that this little brat is a Faux Addled Publicity Hound.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x559201

[seriousstan]

82. Teach "real" history in a history class....not in a geography class.

[manic expression]

181. The two are very much connected

the history of countries and their people is a central aspect of geography. If you only teach the borders and cities and rivers and hills, you are ignoring one of the most important parts of what the study is about.

[emulatorloo]

47. Cherry Creek is Bush Lover Land, but that guy's rant is scary

Listen to the MP3 -- poor guy seems at the breaking point. And if I was a child in his class, I would be really disturbed if my teacher was acting this way.

[superconnected]

63. can you post a link to the mp3.

I think the whole country is on the verge of breaking.

I'm watching womens rights break, daily.

[emulatorloo]

64. It is on the same page as the newspaper article - look for the little

yellow speaker icon. . .

[lowreed]

110. I attended Overland in the early '80's

I had a great social studies teacher who always spoke truth to power.
His ideas really challenged my air force brat upbringing.
I remember my right wing father would get pissed when I would
try to discuss the things I learned in his class.

[Rocknrule]

133. It may have been

but I went there and in a mock student election last year, Kerry won by 51%

Just like he probably did in the real thing

[emulatorloo]

166. that's good to hear EOM

[MrPrax]

61. Righteous...

Too bad more teachers don't present critical opinions of mainstream misconceptions--could go a long way to getting democrats elected.

But I can SEE, if your, say a Republican, you might find a lot of his rap to be disturbing--like being told that the number one killer drug on the planet is perfectly legal or the economic system of capitalism is morally ambiguous.

[superconnected]

71. The teacher is doing his job

When, I took geography in highschool, in the 80's, we had to read the paper every day in class. We focused on political issues. That's what started me on reading the paper. We discussed the events and current governments around the world, for most of the class every day.

This tape puts me right back in my geography class at Everett High 1983.

For those of you who had geography classes that only covered terrain, I think you got gyped.

[trixie]

109. But that is exactly the difference

YOU read the papers, YOU discussed the issues. You didn't sit quietly and listen to someone preach to you.

[wordpix]

74. teachers DO need to separate

facts they're teaching, i.e. "Libby is now indicted on obstruction charges over the leak of V. Plame's name and both Karl Rove and Cheney have been implicated, although there are no charges against either, yet" and opinion: "In my opinion, there are similarities between some things Bush said in his January speech compared to certain things Hitler said in 1940, and here are the similarities..."

[KittyWampus]

78. But aren't the similarities empircal FACTS though?

I am not arguing with you as much as trying to figure that out.

The teacher may SAY "in my opinion" but there are simliarities to be drawn.

It's more of an opinion if the teacher had drawn inferences about those simliarities.

[superconnected]

79. Are you saying his statement isn't a fact?

Adj. 1. implicated - culpably involved; "all those concerned in the bribery case have been identified"; "named three officials implicated in the plot"; "an innocent person implicated by circumstances in a crime"

im·pli·cate (mpl-kt)
tr.v. im·pli·cat·ed, im·pli·cat·ing, im·pli·cates
1. To involve or connect intimately or incriminatingly: evidence that implicates others in the plot.
2. To have as a consequence or necessary circumstance; imply or entail: His evasiveness implicated complicity.
3. Linguistics To convey, imply, or suggest by implicature.
4. Archaic To interweave or entangle; entwine

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/implicated

[StrafingMoose]

77. Incredible...

While of course a geography teacher's job is to teach geography, this creates the precedent that teacher are barred from expressing their views to their students. Much like the stories I saw of priests getting in trouble for criticizing the war, preventing caracters like MLK to rise.

And the guy wants both sides of the story ? While I agree with Bennish on some points, giving the "other" side of the story would be like offering a rosy half-truth, sometimes a lie. The lazy bum might want to tune in to Fox, CNN, MSNBC and he's gonna get the "other" side of the story, and 24/7/365 that is! Don't expect your teacher to regurgitate the same info stream to you. I find it odd that the report presents it like the teacher just started to rant, with no reason to do so which I find doubtful. A conversion must have been going on with another student, leading to this subject.

See, KBR is building concentration camps all over USA, but everyone should be sticking to their ethics. Like abusive leaders would never have the guts to use these "ethics" at their advantage, right? :eyes:

[superconnected]

83. I think if geography teachers took a big step back and only

taught about rocks, hills, etc., we would lose one of the most important classes in HS.

My geography class read the newspaper everyday, and discussed politics the whole time, and got tested on physical geography once in a while. We were concerned with world geography and the events going on there. It was all politics.

His discussion sounds exaclty like my geography class in 1983. I listed to the mp3. It's dead on.

Okay, my office mate who has 2 master degrees got the same kind of geography class I did. It's where she had to read the newspaper for current world events everyday and discuss politics too.

[StrafingMoose]

95. Yup.

And what bad it has done to you ? Oh, you maybe got critical of govt's policies ... How did your teacher dare do this! :sarcasm: Governements have been historically proven to be needed to be put on tight leashes and criticized continually, period.

Yet, again, the tape has the guy saying that Bush is obviously not exactly like Hitler -- but the report doesn't mention that. Of course, since I saw that Bush spent as much as 1.5 billion on PR spin and that the Pentagon is buying pro-war articles, it is safe to say that a good part of the media is trying to get people in line for the imperial march.

[zbdent]

80. Maybe the tape can be thrown out

warrantless . . . :evilgrin:

[bluestateguy]

84. An investigation needs to take place

to find out if this kid broke the law by secretely taping a class without his teacher's consent.

[AlCzervik]

85. i bet they'll say -------

"It's a public school so there is no expectation of privacy, therefore no laws were broken"

[bluestateguy]

86. Well that's what an investigation needs to uncover

Convene a grand jury, hold depositions and let the subpeonas fly.

[tomg]

87. Had the kid and his father not gone public from

jump and had they run it through normal channels, I doubt the teacher would have been placed on administrative leave. At most they would have taken it up with his department chair and he would have gotten a mild reprimand. They clearly had an agenda to bust the guy.

By the way, I have been teaching almost 35 years. With that said, after listening to the entire mp3 I was sort of concerned about his teaching method. You want students to really explore those issues, not simply take on your positions, so you have to get them involved in dialogue with each other. He seemed to ask questions and rather than allowing his students to consider the issues, he jumped in and answered them. Questions were either rhetorical or the kinds that closed discussions.

As far as what seems to be his intention, to have his students really think about stuff they normally do not think about, that is what you want teachers to do. Well, it is what I want to do as a teacher. Whether his method was the most successful on that day and under those circumstances, that's a whole different question. I mean we all have off days. He sounds like a really decent teacher who is trying to the right thing by his kids who went off on a roll after the State of the Union, and then got sharp shot by a right-wing father. Incidentally, it seems pretty appropriate, at least to me, that it took place in a geography class, at least it is better than learning that Rochester, New York makes shoes.

edit: typo - now it is off to teach class.

[AnneD]

89. Ouch...

My daughter goes to a very liberal HS and has told me a thing or two about her teacher's occasional political comments (geography is more than just maps). He is well loved and I agree with him (truth is truth afterall), but it would be devestating if something like this happened to him. This will have a chill on any frank discussion.

[no_hypocrisy]

91. American Hitler Youth (Hitlerjugend) n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

93. There is more on this story in another thread. There the teacher is

explaining to the students what his objective was.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x554779

[mike_c]

97. the teacher was correct IMO, and the kid was a young informer....

He denounced the teacher to the political authorities, the teacher was punished. Where have we heard this story before?

[superconnected]

100. we've heard it from nazi stories

kids turned in their parents, neighbors turned in neighbors.

Be scared. It's happening more and more now.

The kid was an informer.

[leftofthedial]

105. the truth is FAR too dangerous to share with teenagers

[magellan]

106. I wonder if this would have happened if Bennish led a class prayer instead

???

[opihimoimoi]

112. The Brown Shirts have ARRIVED in the Classrooms

They intimidate, stifle, etc through shit like this.

This sends a message the Pubs want...get the teachers to shut the fuck up on matter off subject. Only teach the subject at hand. This stifles all teachers who wish to stray on what they feel is important...

Germany 1934 all over again.

[AndyA]

113. If it were a HISTORY class, I'd have no problem with this

But it doesn't make sense in a GEOGRAPHY class, unless he's dealing with the history of the various countries and the changes that have been made to the map over the years due to military action, etc.

I'm not so sure his lesson was appropriate for a geography class. History, civics, or subjects in that vein would be fine.

[mbperrin]

171. I teach World Geography.

Here's a link to what the state of Texas expects us to teach:
http://www.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/teksworldgeo.htm

and here's what some of those are:

(15) Citizenship. The student understands how different points of view influence the development of public policies and decision-making processes on local, state, national, and international levels.


The student is expected to:

(A) identify and give examples of different points of view that influence the development of public policies and decision-making processes on local, state, national, and international levels;

(B) explain how citizenship practices, public policies, and decision making may be influenced by cultural beliefs

or

(14) Government. The student understands the geographic processes that influence the political divisions, relationships, and policies.


The student is expected to:

(A) analyze current events to infer the physical and human processes that lead to the formation of boundaries and other political divisions;

(B) explain how forces of conflict and cooperation influence the allocation of control of Earth's surface such as the formation of congressional voting districts or free trade zones; and

(C) explain the geographic factors that influence a nation's power to control territory and that shape the foreign policies and international political relations of selected nations such as Iraq, Israel, Japan, and the United Kingdom.

Actually, everything there is completely appropriate to World Geography and is in fact required

[OnyxCollie]

120. I'm suspicious of the kid.

The article says the "rant" was recorded on an MP3 player. I've got an iPod, and if I want to record audio, I've got to buy a microphone, carry it with me an attach it to my iPod. I am not to my knowledge aware of any MP3 players that have built-in mics. Would a high school kid record a geography class lesson? If he was studious, I guess he would. The article says that only a portion of the class was recorded. We do not know the full context of the "rant". It just seems like there my have been some premeditation, possibly coaxing the teacher to give his opinions, recording him and turning the recording over to a radio talk show.

[emulatorloo]

164. Apparently he is Hannity's latest little superstar

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x559201

(so I kinda take back all my 'wait and see' comments elsewhere in the thread)

[last_texas_dem]

123. Shoot...

What this guy said is nothing compared to a teacher I had in high school. The guy I had was a right-wing "libertarian" nutcase who supposedly taught us "World History" but truly spent more time preaching his politics than teaching his subject. He was much more extreme than this guy IMHO; he brought out the Clinton "death lists" and everything... But overall, I'm probably more glad than not that I had him as a teacher, because being in his class greatly increased my interest in politics and current events; he pissed me off so much that I started trying to keep up with things better so as to be able to argue with him! So in a weird way, I might not be the liberal I am today without that teacher's attempts to indoctrinate me into a right-wing nut.

Oh yeah, and I honestly think what that kid was kinda shitty. Maybe I'm sensitive to it because I come from a family of teachers, but I just think that's wrong to tape somebody like that without informing them. Perhaps it hits a little closer to home because when I had that wingnut teacher back in the day I considered the idea of doing it myself and even at the age of fifteen it just felt, to me, like it would just be the wrong thing to do to somebody.

[Radio_Guy]

124. I heard the tape

There isn't a single thing that teacher said that was wrong. Everything he said was the truth. Bennish did not lie once. Yet he will be silenced anyway.

...and then they came for me.

[Geo55]

169. "...and then they came for me."

...in deed, I was not a geography teacher, so I said nothing.

[ladjf]

212. Just because he spoke the truth, which I believe he did, does

not make it approprate. He could have said having sex is good or maybe something more specific that was equally true but it wouldn't have been germain to his subject.

[DearAbby]

125. High school teacher's comments investigated by district ( Bush Hitler?)

High school teacher's comments investigated by district


AURORA - A 16-year-old boy at Overland High School doesn't want to hear what he calls his teacher's left-wing political rants.

Sean Allen frequently recorded his teachers to back up his notes.  Allen recorded Jay Bennish, his 10th grade World Geography teacher, making comments about President Bush's State of the Union Address. Allen's father claims the comments made in the recording are biased and inappropriate for a geography class. "I'm not saying Bush and Hitler are exactly the same, obviously they're not. OK? But there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use," says Bennish in his critique of U.S. economic and foreign policy.

>snip<



The school district says at first glance it does appear the teacher acted inappropriately at the very least.

A spokesperson for the Cherry Creek School District said they have placed Bennish on administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation. This is not a disciplinary action; the school district wants to remove him while they sort through the rest of the investigation.




http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=b8298706-0abe-421a-0116-75e16c449518&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

[Clark2008]

126. It's inappropriate to tell the truth?

Since when?

[Botany]

127. A Poland attacked Germany in 1939 and had WMDs

bush has taken a few plays from Hitler's playbook

[Cha]

129. Maybe this is a good thing..

that little sneaky sean allen is doing? Getting it out there that, indeed, bush is like hitler.

It would take a bush boot licker to tape the teachers, thinking they're doing something special.

Kudos to that teacher, Jay Bennish! I hope this comes out with Justice on your side!

[Rocknrule]

132. I went to high school in that school district

and a few of my teachers said similar things. Nothing happened to them.

[andyv]

134. Hypothetical Question

Let's say that a RW teacher tells his students, during a geography class, that the Iraq war is justified, abortion is murder and Bush is the greatest US president of all times. What would you think?

[jsamuel]

136. nothing would happen to them at all

except for maybe the "abortion is murder" part.

But if they said GO BUSH and GO IRAQ WAR, NOTHING would happen to them.

[thebigidea]

149. happens all the time. Who is gonna kick up a fuss?

I had an insane Nixon/Reagan fan as a History teacher, complete with big autographed pictures of Reagan in the back of the classroom. He opened and closed each class with endless rants about liberals and how great the President was, possibly the greatest of all time. We just groaned and the more assertive argued with him. It was actually quite entertaining to debate him, and dare I say it - almost educational. I know, you probably shouldn't be exposed to that kind of stuff in a classroom. As far as I know, he was never secretely recorded and reported to Noam Chomsky as a fiendish right wing ranter and operative. Certainly not suspended for having political opinions!

[napsi]

182. This mans' job is to teach geography......

It would be similar to an employee ranting against a co-worker, boss or making disparaging remarks about the company or CEO. He/She has the absolute right to say whatever they want without fear of jail, govt persecution etc... They would not be protected from the consequences of their actions whether that be a termination notice, reprimand or civil lawsuit. This teacher has the right to say it but he better be prepared from the reaction. Consequences know no truth..."for every action there is a reaction"

[Blue_Tires]

250. welcome to the site!

[conservdem]

269. Good question.

I suspect you would see different reactions from most people here. If a kid taped such statements, I doubt many (probably none) here would suggest the kid did something wrong.

To often dems and repbubs seem unwilling to ask such questions.

Welcome Andyv.

[fshrink]

137. Let's imagine that

the teacher had said that capitalism promotes human rights, that the US is probably the most peaceful nation on the planet and that Bush and (take your pick aside from a negative one) are very much alike. Would have it been worth taping? Would have been suspended? Would we even be talking about it?

[Evergreen Emerald]

204. would it have been propaganda?

[fshrink]

216. It is. Everyday. But it's the dominant ideology.

So it is the "truth".

[LuckyLib]

246. Yup. You've just described most of the US social studies curriculum.

Only the most creative teachers can wade through the crap and challenge students to challenge what they read. Why do students like this teacher? Because he takes a stand, states that it's his opinion, speaks out. What I'd like to see is evidence that his teaching includes very complex thinking and collaborative tasks that challenge his students to (1) determine what statements/points of view he pointed out; and (2) what kind of evidence can be marshalled to support and refute each one. Discuss, debate, shout out . . . anything to wake up the sleeping students and convince them that school can actually be relevant!

[Swamp Rat]

140. Little brownshirt

[Strelnikov_]

192. I Assume He Will Be In The Parris Island Class Of 2007?

Naw. Fightin his Maximum Leaders wars is for others.

[musical_soul]

150. I agree with some of what he said.

But opinions have no place in the classroom.

[CAcyclist]

162. So I guess there goes speech and debate class

and critical theory, philosophy and any art/music appreciation classes.

[regnaD kciN]

153. Gee, and when I was in Junior High...

...I had a Social Studies teacher who defended Joe McCarthy with no repercussions.

:shrug:

[adigal]

157. The Republican Youth was just on Hannity's radio show

He said his teacher has "teached" for about 6 years, and he hoped his teacher got a severe "reprimandation." Hannity was totally stoked and said, "Do you know what you have done for education? You have put a chill up the spine of every educator who may speak out against Bush? You have made education better today."

God, what puts a chill in my spine isn't some illiterate Republican Youth spying on me - it's that so many other Americans think that having a point of view in education is wrong, even if the teacher says that it is just his/her opinion and presents the opposing point of view.

BRRRRRR!!

[alarcojon]

189. Did Hannity really say that?

You have put a chill up the spine of every educator who may speak out against Bush??? It sounds to me like he has decided to finally come out in the open with his totalitarian views. Why bother to try and hide them anymore?

[NashVegas]

168. Listening to the Clip Right Now

This teacher needs a vacation, big time.

He is ranting to the class.

I agree with a lot of what he says, but if you're going to try to deliver a political lesson, especially to teenagers, this is not the way to do it.

Edited to add: I find it very hard to believe the administration had no idea what was going on in his class. If a teacher in my HS had addressed his students like this on a regular basis it would have been all over the school.

[AlCzervik]

177. 100 or so students had a walk out over the suspension. link

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1679439

[alarcojon]

186. Thanks for the link - and here's a surprise

Superintendent Monte Moses told ABC News All discussion must be fair and balanced. Sound familiar?

[superconnected]

191. Good for them. :)

[98geoduck]

196. I recall having to watch Exxon Snuff Films in Earth Science class...

Popular during the 70's. Teacher was a right winger with little ambition to teach. Talk about hidden agenda propoganda.

[Blue_Tires]

251. i meant to ask:

what are the exxon snuff films?

[hotforteacher]

197. It is incredibly simplistic and naive

...to believe that an educator can reduce one's discipline into a series of lecture notes derived directly from the state's curriculum that might actually provoke a student to think beyond what is socially acceptable. I would have to look at the state's curriculum before I even spouted off about what is acceptable and unacceptable, or mandated.

The whole point of a public school system was to ensure that the genpop in a democracy was educated enough to vote intelligently. The NCLB is gutting that very principle. Nice, huh? Let's make sure that they are dumber and more apathetic than they are currently. I can't wait to see what other dopplegangers come of this. It makes my job extra-fun. And keeping people in fear of what comes out of their mouth is a great tactic. I am all for contextualizing ideas and being objective, but we have no idea what happened in the remaining minutes of that class that were conveniently NOT taped.

Also, something else to keep in mind is that the current trend in education is for disciplines to overlap. It keeps students engaged because they can see how one influences the other. Geography is directly linked to history and political science. It is foolish to think otherwise.

[mbperrin]

201. Here's an applicable section of Colorado's standards for geography

Seems to me that the teacher's repeated insistence to students that they will have to make up their own minds about these things clearly meets the standard. His direct instruction method is not my favorite, but is what is taught at most education departments I know anything about. He's young and new to teaching; I'm 53 and SHOULD be a more deft instructor.

He's clearly in bounds describing various perspectives associated with places and regions. The student in question is never ridiculed b this teacher for the kid's mistaken belief that Iraq was tied to bin Laden or that we're the rosy cheeked defenders of freedom vs evil men who rob and maim; instead, he enthusiastically encourages the kid to look at another point of view and then to make up his own mind.

Plus anyone who's never taught a full day in front of 150 or more students each day (my current load is 6 classes and 187 students), I'd urge them to try it before being too awfully critical of any particular style of delivery. Most wonderful teacher in the world? Probably not. Enthused and likes his kids? Obviously. They like him, too, or they wouldn't risk suspension by walking out.

I wouldn't worry about what the principal thinks - they come and go, because they're on the up and out track. I had a principal tell me that a student didn't commit plagiarism by cutting and pasting a web article and turning it in as original because "facts can't be plagiarized." Oops - forgot to mention the kid's dad is a bigwig with a local insurance company. Go figure. Anyway, he seems to me to be trying to get done what the state says they want:

http://www.cde.state.co.us/cdeassess/standards/geog.htm


2.3 Students know how culture and experience influence people's perceptions of places and regions.
GRADES K-4
In grades K-4, what students know and are able to do includes

* identifying ways in which different people view and relate to places and regions.

GRADES 5-8
As students in grades 5-8 extend their knowledge, what they know and are able to do includes

* describing various perspectives associated with places and regions;
* explaining how culture and technology affect perception of places and regions (for example, U.S. television programs and movies present images of the U.S. to billions of people around the world) ; and
* explaining how places and regions serve as cultural symbols (for example, Jerusalem as a sacred place for Christians, Jews, and Muslims).

GRADES 9-12
As students in grades 9-12 extend their knowledge, what they know and are able to do includes

* analyzing why places and regions are important to human identity;
* comparing and contrasting how and why different groups in society view places and regions differently; and
* analyzing the ways places and regions reflect cultural change (for example, old mining towns become tourist centers).

[pauliedangerously]

202. Welcome to DU!!

I'm hot for teacher too ;-)

[Chemical Bill]

199. Haliburton is building a new home for that teacher. n/t

[killbotfactory]

200. I don't remember geography class

I remember history class, which taught geography.

[Rex]

207. Shit, I guess I better watch my mouth!

:evilgrin: I personally love warping adolescents with foreign cultures and lands. It's either that or the halcyon days of boring WASP school.

[Mr_Spock]

210. Cool dude

:D

[TankLV]

217. Truth hurst, doesn't it!

So, what, people are gonna be punished for telling the TRUTH?

While I don't blame him - NOTHING should be done to him - he should still keep his opinions to himself.

When I was in school, we never knew HOW our teachers thought.

[Born Free]

222. I am more concernerd about the implications of TIA type activities

I know students use recorders at times but to use it against someone politically seems a bit more like the TIA project. Do they have recorders in the boys room as well? How many are using the photo cell phones to capture UN-American activities? Everybody watching everyone else to make sure nothing UN-American happens, that is the scary part, debating over which country killed more people is not as important as the freedom to debate and express our beliefs.

[hughee99]

228. Wow, I see many here have come a long way in the last 2 years...

I remember when a teacher had a picture of * in her classroom and many people here were ready to run her out of town on a rail for "pushing" here beliefs on here students. That woman has no right to indoctrinate our kids... and the like. Now, there seems to be a lot of leeway given to a teacher who gives a 20 minute rant on current politics during a geography class.

[donco6]

231. Most of that is NOT from teachers, I notice.

The teachers here know better. Regardless of whether the RW is "fair and balanced" (which we know they are not), it's not OK to take a HS class and indoctrinate them either way. All these people screaming about "free speech" don't have an inkling of school district case law governing what teachers can and can't say in a classroom. The ignorance is simply too vast to even begin to counter.

[ladjf]

237. Beautiful rebuttal. Everyone here needs to read it and then

return their focus toward kicking the Bush regime out of Washington.

I can't recall any thread on DU that had as many naive, but well intentioned, opinions as this one. I am amazed and a bit shocked.

[fshrink]

258. That's because philosophy is not in the curriculum

in this country. If people learn to think critically, at least starting in 9th grade as they do in other countries, we wouldn't be submerged by this blob of well-intentioned simple thinking.

[ladjf]

260. Another profound post by another DU poster. Thanks.

Philosophy is the science of determining basic values. Like all sciences there is method and practice that includes improving cognitive skills. It could well be the most important science and at the same time most difficult as the results are not as easily confirmed as with the so called physical sciences.

Philosophy is not taught the the schools of America and that would even include Universities. Yes, there are philosophy courses, but, by in large, those are in fact more like histories or surveys of past philosophers. It's rather archival.

When school acquire a trade school mentality, it seems that the study of philosophy is too far from the point. Yet, it is philosophy that would help the individual to decide what trade would be beneficial and why.

I could rave on about this subject. But, in the DU tradition, I'll just sign off at this point.

[stepnw1f]

234. Let's Put This Into PERSPECTIVE

We have religious nut jobs across the country shoving their weird twisted version of christianity down every student's throats by trying to implement prayer, the word God and Creationism (Intelligent Design)into PUBLIC schools, yet a teacher can not criticize this psychopath for a President?

You people are fucking full of shit OK?

[Blue_Tires]

249. my take on it

1. Personally, I feel the teacher, while within his rights, overstepped his professional bounds...

2. There should be NO admiration for the hitler youth that taped the lecture and, instead of going through proper educational channels to file a complaint, went directly to the media with his father for his 15 mins denouncing the 'leftist' public schools system.

3. Even though most history/geography/social studies teachers I've had were sane and level-headed, a few were overly freepish and jingoistic with their "America is the GREATEST NATION THAT WAS OR EVER WILL BE!!!!!111one" attitudes and general disregard for foreign histories or cultures....I however, took it in stride and didn't turn rat bastard informer to the Diocese....(it makes me wonder if the teacher came in with some right-wing screed, would the teenage 'future scumbag of america' be so quick to snitch?)

[joshcryer]

255. The class was HUMAN GEOGRAPHY.

Not geography as in the sense of location and terrain. It's about social and political views, too. Which pretty much subverts everything that most of you are saying here.

[Odin2005]

259. Geography isn't just locations, history isn't just names and dates.

Unfortunately in elementary and high school that is what those classes end up being because teachers and administrators are afriad of looking to look contraversial or biased, interpretation of subjective issues is frowned upon. This is bad for society as a whole because it gives students the message that truth is subjective and all opinions are equally valid (except those that are not PC) no matter how outrageous the opinion is.

[rodeodance]

265. I looked over his syllabus--it was grand.

[mountainvue]

262. The kid's father is a freep

and the bottom line is, they set up this teacher. Nothin' new for the freeps.

[Deja Q]

263. The US isn't perfect, but at least it's been improving.

Can anyone say the same for Iraq? Iran? Et cetera?

Not that ANYTHING is ever so simple, of course.

[oblivious]

264. Improving since the late 40s? since the late 90s? or when for example?