WP: U.S. Cites Exception in Torture Ban

[Rose Siding]

McCain Law May Not Apply to Cuba Prison

By Josh White and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, March 3, 2006; Page A04

Bush administration lawyers, fighting a claim of torture by a Guantanamo Bay detainee, yesterday argued that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.

In federal court yesterday and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers contended that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, cannot use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture."
....
U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler said in a hearing yesterday that she found allegations of aggressive U.S. military tactics used to break the detainee hunger strike "extremely disturbing" and possibly against U.S. and international law. But Justice Department lawyers argued that even if the tactics were considered in violation of McCain's language, detainees at Guantanamo would have no recourse to challenge them in court.
....
"Unfortunately, I think the government's right; it's a correct reading of the law," said Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "The law says you can't torture detainees at Guantanamo, but it also says you can't enforce that law in the courts."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030202054.html

[merwin]

1. So now the Bush administration ADMITS to torturing!

[Kagemusha]

3. The admin's saying if there was torturing, it may be technically illegal

but that doesn't mean that the torturees can sue the US for it in federal court, since Congress oh so helpfully made that illegal by statute. The only possibility of a torturer being brought to justice would be the US suing itself (Justice Department suing uniformed soldiers say). Think that's likely? I didn't think so.

[Roland99]

32. They must be pleased as punch about this

fucking ridiculous!

:banghead:

[Canuckistanian]

54. What good is a law that no one is allowed to use?

Seriously, is this a nation of laws or of men?

Can it not be struck down with a contitutional challenge? This more than qualifies under the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause in the Eighth Amendment.

[tom_paine]

58. The old United States of America was a Nation of Laws

Imperial Amerika is a Nation of Men.

The purpose of laws that no one is allowed to use is obvious to the students of Totalitarianism, be it Communism on the Left or Nazism and BushPutinism on the Right.

Fake laws are to keep the sheep quiet, and still believeing they are free long after they have lost it.

It's quite simple, really.

Google "plausible deniability".

[saigon68]

7. KIND OF LIKE THIS

[katty]

48. Admits to Torture and they're so Proud, they're tellin the world

this is what America has become...America should NEVER, EVER tell the world what standards to live by/up again! We are simply laughed at now and ignored.

[EFerrari]

2. It's just worse every day. n/t

[Trevelyan]

64. Saw this important article too late to Recommend but would like to Kick

A very good site to help stop this horror is http://www.CagePrisoner.com/

[High Plains]

4. Everyone involved in this ought to end up on trial for war crimes.

[Elidor]

5. "Your honor, we reserve the right to be inhuman."

Tht pretty well says it all right there.

[katty]

49. exactly

[Judi Lynn]

6. Republicans claim to despise lawyers, but where WOULD they be

without the legally adroit people who have helped them find the loopholes and exploitable lapses in the law they can use to terrorize others, and intensify their control of their fellow human beings?

Every honest person's just screwed in a world in which these monsters have the upper hand.

[salin]

8. Then what was the point of the law - if it can't be enforced in courts?

eom

[HereSince1628]

10. Doesn't passing a law presume the inherent power to enforce it?.

Seems to me it should.

Wouldn't a clause that makes a law impossible to enforce be unconstitutional because it denies EVERYONE to whom it is applied due process?

Maybe the court should use the Bushista's argument back against them.

[worldgonekrazy]

55. Its an issue of jurisdiction

The people being tortured are not U.S. citizens and they are not on U.S. soil, so they have no standing to seek recourse under U.S. law. It sucks, but it is a sound legal argument.

[remfan]

14. Maybe that was the point

I'm always suspicous of motive when I see the GOP suddenly jump on a bandwagon that they've let pass them by repeatedly, and I'm always suspicious of McCain's motives nowadays. Legislation is often used to make a public statement when, in fact, the details say something much different. It's entirely possible that's all this was, a public showing that had no real impact, and they knew that from the outset.

[Lasher]

41. Its purpose was to try to make McCain look like he's not a lapdog

I agree with you, remfan. Looks like the provision was a total waste of time. It won't protect detainees, and it didn't make McCain look like he's not a lapdog.

[HereSince1628]

9. Kicked...here is the result of the torture ban being sandbagged.

[Solly Mack]

11. Refresher

Whitehouse wants exemption to McCain amendment
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:4Z3UiBBLASgJ:www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/10/26/mccain_fights_exception_to_torture_ban/+McCain%27s+law,+torture&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12

White House backs torture ban law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4533342.stm

Graham-Levin Amendment is a provision of the McCain Amendment
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/16/usdom12311.htm

Bush could bypass new torture ban (Presidential "signing order" attached to amendment)
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/01/04/bush_could_bypass_new_torture_ban/?page=1

McCain Torture Policy Undercut By Amendment
http://www.talkleft.com/new_archives/013435.html

ACLU/McCain Amendment/Backroom deal (Graham-Levin)
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:VNTIt0xBsYMJ:www.aclu.org/safefree/general/23031prs20051214.html+McCain%27s+law,+torture&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=30

Why the McCain Amendment Won't Work
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9692

Final Draft of McCain's amendment
http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/mccain_text.html

Laws already existing that banned torture and cruel treatment of priosners

THE CONVENTION Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/03/20/why_not_torture_terrorists?mode=PF


Text of Convention that the US ratified and made FEDERAL US law
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/39/a39r046.htm

Assorted Genevas - you can look them up on Google.

Rules against the abuse of prisoners (pow's) date back to Revolutionary America and George Washington - (Look it up - it's true) and a law was passed by Lincoln (The Lieber Code) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5011464


Fact is, the McCain amendment was not needed. What was needed, and what we still lack today, is enforcement of existing laws. No one in government is enforcing ANY of the laws against torture. Now we have a law, part of the McCain amendment, that bars those tortured from having access to the courts.

[Cambist]

12. I just can't take it anymore.

These f*ckers are torturing me with their every UN-AMERICAN bullsh*t action. This is so disgraceful. I was planning another trip over seas this year but I am so embarrassed I may not go. We have got to IMPEACH and PROSECUTE these criminals against humanity.

We spend in ONE Day the same amount of money shrub "pledged" to fight malaria in Africa over FIVE years. 2 million children die every year from this, This is making me CRAZY !!!!!!!


dlh

[Solly Mack]

13. I'm close to the breaking point myself

America tortures. It's more or less legal by executive fiat and loophole laws of Congress and how do we fight that? Am I supposed to appeal to a President that engages in torture? Am I supposed to appeal to those in Congress who vote in favor of the loopholes to torture?

Who do I turn to?

[Auntie Bush]

28. "Who do I turn to? " Turn to General Wesley Clark for President in

2008. He will take responsibility to make sure the laws are written correctly and will FORBID torture and punish those that engage in that disgusting practice. Trust me...he'll put an end to it and see to it that the higher ups that condone torture will be prosecuted...not just the underlings. He's a fair and honest man that can be TRUSTED.

[saigon68]

35. He is a Christian

He tortures in the Name of CHRIST

Some of his methods appear "Over the Top"

But its being done to keep amerikan christians safe

[Solly Mack]

53. I'd laugh 'cept

for the truth of it all

[wordpix]

37. enforcement of US laws? Impossible! say the repukes, unless these are

laws to torture POWs (aka "enemy combatants"), destroy the environment, sell off America's natural heritage/public lands, and enrich ourselves and our corporate backer$.

[Solly Mack]

52. I realize I was being naive

:)

but even still - imagine: enforcement

[GeorgeGist]

15. U.S. Cites Exception in Torture Ban; McCain Law May Not Apply to Cuba Pris

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030202054.html?nav=rss_politics/administration

[rodeodance]

16. Gittmo (and other sites)--are the 'extra-legal" sites--. I am not

surprized to see this.

U.S. Cites Exception in Torture Ban
McCain Law May Not Apply to Cuba Prison

By Josh White and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, March 3, 2006; Page A04

Bush administration lawyers, fighting a claim of torture by a Guantanamo Bay detainee, yesterday argued that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.

In federal court yesterday and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers contended that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, cannot use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture."

Government lawyers have argued that another portion of that same law, the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, removes general access to U.S. courts for all Guantanamo Bay captives. Therefore, they said, Mohammed Bawazir, a Yemeni national held since May 2002, cannot claim protection under the anti-torture provisions.

Bawazir's attorneys contend that "extremely painful" new tactics used by the government to force-feed him and end his hunger strike amount to torture

[RagingInMiami]

18. Thanks for posting the first four paragraphs

For those of us too lazy and impatient to click on the link.

[Kagemusha]

19. What the second para says does not square with the first

Sorry to be technical, but law is technical. The ban bans the commission of torture; it's not there to make it illegal to be tortured. However, those that have been tortured have been denied (it is argued) redress in American courts by Congress, so even if they have been tortured, and even if that torture is illegal, the detainees themselves have no right to justice. They're not arguing that the ban on TORTURE doesn't apply, they're arguing that the ban on SUING ABOUT TORTURE applies.

Just so DU'ers understand what's really being argued here, as well, unethical as such an argument is.

[acmejack]

17. They no longer make any bones about it, do they?

Can we call it what it is yet? Or will people still be offended and say we are over reacting?

[LiberalinNC]

20. Looks like Rove "got to" McCain!

This is BS!!!

[The Stranger]

21. It amazes me that the anti-Arab UAE threads receive more recs and

responses than a thread such as this one.

What have we done?

[loveandlight]

22. ?????? how can we stop them?????

I believe I will lose my mind seeing this kind of information every day. And it is in the news as if it is normal, no big deal. Yeah, we torture, but ha ha, there is nothing you can do about it. Try and stop us. I too can hardly take it any more. I get the feeling more and more this must be what it was like for those honest souls in Germany during the Hitler emergence, who just weren't able to make it stop. You can protest and you can write letters to Congress, but in the end what does it get us? They do what they want, they've got everyone cowed and submissive. So when even the advocacy director of Human Rights Watch says the law is against us, then what do we do? I feel that we must go against the law then, start massive non-violent protests in the streets, get ourselves arrested. But there is no leader there, no organization to take the masses down that path. Going by the books stuff we do isn't getting us anywhere, what exactly do we do as individuals without leaders? Someone needs to do for this issue what Cindy Sheehan did for the war issue, make it be in their faces and get other people on our side. Make it be an embarassment and impossible to carry on and ignore.

[jasop]

23. I am so sick and tired of these insane people!

I can't understand how people watch anti-Nazi movies and documentaries and feel so bad for the Jews and what they went through and in the same breath they can approve of these people who rule our country WORSE than the Nazis ever ruled there own country. We are in a country that is destroying millions of lives, killing thousands in Iraq, Afghanistan, and New Orleans. In addition to passing laws and budget cuts that destroy millions of American lives including healthcare, education, inappropriate trade deals, deregulating corporate monopolies, directing our tax money to friends and families, and also passing laws that make it hard to prosecute these criminals.

What in the hell is going to happen to this country?!?

Don't kid yourself either about people waking up and smelling the coffee, because the type of thinking that allows people to support republicans is the same type of thinking that allows people to be ruled by religion. And even with hard evidence and proof these types of people will still believe that a white guy with long hair is the son of an old white guy with a big beard in a gold throne sits in the clouds shooting lightning at gay people with a bunch of naked people with wings flying around as his slaves.

[EvilAL]

25. Re:

Now what I don't get is what specifically defines torture. Forcing someone that's starving to eat?? Or how they force them. If people can just start claiming torture all the time there's gonna be some fuckin
shit hittin the fan as well. There's definately torture going on, right now someone is getting tortured for something, but torture means so much.. I don't think the guy hooked up to high voltage feels the same as they guy getting food shoved in his face.

[colorado_ufo]

27. What if shoving the food in your face

breaks your teeth off in the process? Or causes you to suffocate? Or choke until the blood vessels in your eyes burst? Or has you strapped down with a nasogastric tube forced down your bleeding nose? Among other unpleasantries . . .

[stepnw1f]

43. Maybe We Should Try It On You

then you can tell us if it would be defined as being torture.

[Trevelyan]

61. Force feeding is so horrible it is against International Law. A recent

article in UK online newspaper had a British doctor saying about this horror at Gitmo that if he did it he would be tried for assault.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

26. I seriously disagree that Christianity is the cause of this

edited for spelling
.

• This _misAdministration's members are definitely worse than Nazis-
• This country has Pat Robertson "Kristchens"with large followings and absurd agendas.
• I personally observe both and conclude that the two do not cause each other thought they do co-exist.

Spirituality (not religion) is the only way we can save ourselves from self destruction.
Spirituality helps us in recognizing of the Universality or "unity" of all beings.
Spirituality promotes caring for one another when we realize we are "all in this together".

Materialism is Reptilian and Greed oriented...ME/ mine- with a strong "fear" of losing it.
Us humans can gather like squirrels all the nuts we want but it will never leave us gratified-only wanting more.
Greed is without a doubt the cause of the mess we are in today.

Q:
"what the hell's going to happen to this country?"

A:
We're going down hard unless some MAJOR shift in consciousness occurs soon enough to stop it.

[superconnected]

24. How can half of america not get the bush admin is saddist and pro torture.

How do people fucking miss this.

And how could senators VOTE to make suing for torture illegal.

IMO that makes them part of the pro-torture movement.

[annabanana]

29. the administration is pro-torture..

It will do whatever it takes, twist rules, laws and every honest impulse of the people to make it possible for them to keep torturing, and to sheild themselves from the consequences.

[cain_7777]

34. One Nation Under Educated!

Americans are too ethnocentric and believe their views should be imposed onto others because they are better. It is blatantly obvious in the belief that christianity should be forced down non-believers throats and that our way of life is better than that of Iraqis. Its a broad spectrum of variables that add to pompous beliefs and Bush is the poster child/chimp bulldozing these radical beliefs into the mainstream. Did Saddam indirectly kill 30,000+ civilians? No, Bush did. Saddam is a cruel sadistic tyrant that ruled without compassion for all, but he did manage to hold the country together without breeding terrorists. They might not have liked us, but now they have such hatred toward us that is justified. America is slowly waking from its ignorant slumber but in a few years it will fall asleep again, as the evangelical right brainwashes the weak minded. Sorry for the tirade but its my first post

[superconnected]

40. Welcome to DU, cain_7777

[Norquist Nemesis]

30. They're not even trying to hide it anymore.

Bravo, W

[marmar]

31. You can't take our right to dehumanize and torture people...

I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. This country is being run by medieval-style sickos. I'm so f..king sick of this.

[Julius Civitatus]

33. Extremely dangerous precedent: military prisons exempt from human rights

watch.

That is a very dangerous precedent. Imagine that something nasty happens and they declare martial law (and we know Cheney and the neocons would love that). That means the military would be exempt from any responsibilities from torturing or mistreating anyone.

Call this new law what what it really is: PURE FASCISM!

Who is writing these laws for the Bush administration? Augusto Pinochet? The Argentinean junta?

Seriously, the implications of this are really troublesome.

[librechik]

47. WHy on earth are MY PUBLIC SERVANTS arguing FOR TORTURE????

I am beyond outrage.

[worldgonekrazy]

56. That would not be the precedent here

The precedent here would be that U.S. law does not apply to foreign people on foreign soil. Human rights law ought to apply, but the United States is purposefully not a part of any international human rights court that actually has any power to enforce binding decisions. I believe the only law that the U.S. is subject to in this area is the Geneva Conventions, which is why the administration came out right off the bat and argued that the Conventions don't apply to these prisoners. They are wrong, but who can do anything about it?

[Duncan]

36. WTF?

"The law says you can't torture detainees at Guantanamo, but it also says you can't enforce that law in the courts."

What in the hell is a "law" then?

The McCain bill is just a toothless PR stunt I guess.

:mad:

[W2Hague]

38. Osama spoke the truth....

...When he agreed to be photographed for this ad:

______________ http://www.bruindesign.com __________________


Peace
Bear

[NovaNardis]

39. Isn't it disgusting

that the administration has to point out an exception for torture? They are literally advocating torture. And not even in cloudy language. Disrepect for human dignity at the highest levels...

[madrchsod]

42. oh great

i guess that is what we should expect from the families who believed hitler was the solution. hitler`s dream lives on

[Just Me]

44. A law is meaningless if it can not be enforced.

Once again, the administration places itself in the void of lawlessness. This is beyond sick.

[MsUnderstood]

45. CONSPIRACY ALERT!

Maybe this is what was intended all along. . .McCain can look like the hero for 2008 and the WH uses their usual tactics to wrangle out of the bill.

[thunder35]

46. When are we going to charge Bush's government with war crimes.

[twaddler01]

50. Which is why torture is going on overseas

gives them the ability to torture without any legal responsibility....sick sick people :puke:

[KamaAina]

51. "You have the right to remain silent."

Anything you say can and will be used against you IN A TORTURE CHAMBER!!! :grr: :banghead:

[winston61]

57. Two amendments were added at the last minute

By McCain and Lindsey Graham. McCain's said that CIA torturers could not be prosecuted if they thought they were following legal orders. Graham's amendment stated that for the purpose of this law, Guantanamo was not to be considered on US territory. Plus monkey boys signing statement make the whole thing meaningless. McCain- phony piece o' shit.

[Solon]

59. Wait...

Does it specifically mention Gitmo, or any unincorporated territory of the United States? I ask because we have more than just Gitmo, there's Guam, the Northern Marianas Islands, Midway, plus the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico.

[Trevelyan]

62. Democrat Carl Levin was co-sponsor of Lindsay Graham's sick

amendment. When do we start a third party with Feingold running as president. It is time. NO HILLARY!!!!

[yellowdogmi]

60. This is one more instance that needs to be

loudly denounced. It hits right to the heart of *'s Unitary executive (bullshit)theory. It is the signing statement that * produced at the signing of McCain's legislation that they are trying to use. It should have no standing in a Federal Court because it was not produced by the congress. This is nothing more than *'s dictum. Of course coming out on a Friday it will be old news by Monday and probably will not generate the outrage that it deserves. There is a quote from Eisenhower that points out that we can not root out unamerican activities by using unamerican methods. This is completely unamerican. Arrgghh

[Trevelyan]

63. the text of the McCain Amendment states:

How to Move on With Style - Here is a primer on what you can do to keep the fight going.. first, you might want to read the actual McCain Amendment and then, read the response by McCain when Bush said he would sign the bill.

Call or write Sen. John McCain and press him for a statement regarding the white house position to ignore his amendment. Email straight talk America, McCain's organization - the email address is: [e-mail]

Contact your own representative or senator.Note - the text of the McCain Amendment states:

(a) IN GENERAL.--No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

Please note how sharply this contrasts to the President's statement

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051230-8.html)

noting that section 1005 does not confer any constitutional right upon an alien detained abroad as an enemy combatant, the executive branch shall construe section 1005 to preclude the Federal courts from exercising subject matter jurisdiction over any existing or future action ..

http://www.straighttalkamerica.com/sta_contents/news/news_121605.shtml

[Voltaire99]

65. The smell of their torture...

...is only outdone by the smell of their lies.


"Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain"

--Dylan