Industry caused the flu; why blame wild birds?

[PhilipShore]

Financial Express, India
Industry caused the flu; why blame wild birds?
March 06, 2006

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=119545

Not just in India, industrial poultry is the cause of the spread of the bird flu outbreak worldwide.

Several studies show that transnational poultry industry is the root cause of the problem. The spread of industrial poultry production and trade networks have created ideal conditions for the emergence and transmission of lethal viruses like the H5N1 strains of bird flu.

Inside factory farms viruses becomes lethal and multiply. Air thick with viral load from infected factory farms is carried for kilometres, while integrated trade networks spread the disease through many carriers like live birds and chicken manure.

Comparatively, the backyard poultry are not fuelling the current wave of bird flu outbreaks stalking large parts of the world. The epicentre of the outbreaks is the factory farms of China and South East Asia. While wild migratory birds can carry the virus, at least for short distances, the viruses are spread by the unhygienic factor farms, global studies said.

[KoKo]

1. True...but this whole "Bird Flu" thing is Bush bot/Right Wing and I get

sick of seeing daily posts...hysterical...over one death in Indonesia, one death in Burmuda...one death in Florida...one death...one death...one death...one death.

Hey look at how many in the USA DIE OF REGULAR FLU or PNEUMONIA EVERY YEAR!!!

SICK OF THE F**ing BIRD FLU POSTS IN HYSTERIA ON DU WHICH IS JUST WHAT THE BUSH BOTS AND BIG PHARMA's WANT!!!!! :puke:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I hope you are correct.

[KoKo]

3. I've lived through alot of American Plagues...but Bush said..."Who cares

about History...we'll all be dead."

yet he conveniently reads "The Great Pandemic" before we suddenly have an "alert a day" about Bird Flu...

I worked for BIG PHARMA...I worked in Epidemiology and Public Health at a Major University that was working on MAJOR WORLD HEALTH PROBLEMS....

I'm telling you that this is a Pile of BUSH OSAMA CRAP! SCARE TACTICS for the MASSES!

Believe what you will.....I just get sick of it....

[depakid]

9. I think I'd be paying attention to the WHO

and the British NHS and other credible public health officials around the world who've been concerned about pandemic influennza for several years-

They don't have any ties to the Bush administration or Big Pharma- and have no reason to lie to you.

[KoKo]

12. Do some research on the WHO before the Bush Bots...and after...see

how it changed since Poppy Bush through Clinton to now. If you believe the WHO then you trust the IMF and the WTO and the US Federal Reserve...and the US FDA and FTC....

Come on! Big Pharma RULES...Scare Tactics RULE... Who has big money "OFFSHORE!" Who has tried to kill off the Trial Lawyers so that the little folks can't get redress from DRUGS pushed fast through FTC that KILL PEOPLE.

Rent the "Constant Gardener" and GOOGLE "World Health Organization" and Google SARS and the rest of it...and then read the "counter reports" from the folks pushed out by the "Sound Science Ghouls" that the Repugs love.

Or...ignore all that and live in fear...cower under your bed or phone your doctor asking him or her to give you the "LATEST AND THE BEST" so you can SURVIVE while your fellow seemingly "clueless" average Americans all DIE!!! because they were ignorant about it all and didn't believe our Government, posters here on DU or the WHO....

Good Luck to Ya!

[depakid]

31. I think you may need to relax a bit, Koko

If you've read my posts, then you probably know I have a little knowledge on the issue.

Sometimes, with all of the insanity going on, it's easy to let the far right get a grip on your reason.

The World Health Organization is NOTHING like the WTO, IMF, etc., etc. Nor is the British NHS.

Here's some of their material:

http://www.dh.gov.uk/PolicyAndGuidance/EmergencyPlanning/PandemicFlu/fs/en

You can read it for yourself.

[GrumpyGreg]

15. I agree,Bush can't be blamed for this one!

[WhiteTara]

34. too bad they keep ignoring the real

pandemic. Aids.

[depakid]

39. Last time I checked

WHO had a lot to say about AIDS.

http://www.who.int/hiv/en/

As did their hundreds (thousands?) of NGO partners....

[WhiteTara]

45. sorry, I meant our

precious government.

[SaveElmer]

70. WHO is doing a pretty good job but...

They are not perfect. They have had to reign in some of their spokesman, and they do have a vested interest in raising the alarm higher than might strictly be necessary, and that is the need to raise money. They have no incentive to downplay the possibility of a pandemic.

The problem of course, after this amount of hype if the virus does not materialize as a significant health threat to humans, future threats will be believed even less. This is why I believe the media induced panic that is taking place, particularly abroad is ultimately very harmful to both the effort to contain this virus, and any future ones.

I also agree the number one problem is the poultry trade, not migrating birds. The panic that is going on in western Europe, where poultry consumption has tanked, and you have people dropping their pets at shelters because 1 stray cat died of it, is totally beyond what is necessary or proportional to the actual threat.

[Mojorabbit]

79. I look at it the opposite way

WHO has been less than forthcoming and have to deal with each countries politics and economics.
I think they are playing it down because everytime they open their mouths it can affect a countries tourism and poultry industries. I think Nabarro tells it like it is and they get complaints and rein him in.
And it is more than one cat...
Cats in Austria Test Positive for Bird Flu

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...ld/3703643.html


© 2006 The Associated Press

VIENNA, Austria — Several cats have tested positive for the H5N1 strain of bird flu, Austrian state authorities said Monday.

Two or three cats, all of which are still alive, have tested positive for the deadly H5N1 strain of the disease, Hans Seitinger, the top agriculture official in Styria state, told ORF.

Last month, German authorities confirmed that a cat there succumbed to the deadly virus. The cat, found on the Baltic Sea island of Ruegen, is believed to have contracted the virus after eating an infected bird.

That is in keeping with a pattern of disease transmission seen in wild cats in Asia.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
It is important to find out if they are carriers as any clues we can get about how this might be spread are needed.

[SaveElmer]

80. Playing it down?

If that is what they are doing they are doing a piss poor job. And I really do not see any evidence for this whatsoever. Every day we get the same warnings from them. The poultry industries, even in countries where there is no virus, or where it is only in wild birds has taken a nose dive.

Google "Bird Flu" and hit news, and you will see report after report on this unecessary panic IMO.

As to the cats, it is going to take alot more then 4 cats to make me worry about that as a serious mode of transmission. IMO the main concentration needs to be on Poultry smuggling and trade. Wild birds do not seem to be the main threat here.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

67. You have comforted me.

My nephew works for Aventis. (sp?) and says the same thing.

[FearofFutility]

81. You worked in epidemiology

and you believe that there will never be another pandemic? Please explain.

[SquireJons]

4. Not everything is a red herring

The good people at the Center for Infectious Disease would probably say you're full of chicken manure. It's not the one death here and one there that has people worried. It's the fact that completely healthy people are dying when they get this flu strain, and there isn't a damned thing they can do about it. Remember SARS? If and when (they say not if but when) one of these things mutates into a cross species strain, it will cause a world wide pandemic and could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people, predominately the young and old. It happened in 1918 and there's no reason to think it won't happen again. Not something to be ridiculed, imo.

[KoKo]

6. How many Americans died of SARS? How many Americans died

of last years "Worst flue to hit US in decades?" Remember when Bush LAST YEAR was giving money to his "Big Pharma" to ramp up the vaccine production for the latest "mutation" after Chiron got hit in GB for having bad batches of vaccine?

You can say I'm full of Bird Shit or whatever...but I worked in the industry and know folks who still do. It's a minor threat to have so many posts here on DU and it makes me wonder what's behind it.

[SquireJons]

8. I lot of people died in Canada from SARS

I have a 9 y/o son and I don't want to take chances. Better safe than sorry.

[KoKo]

16. Do you have a link to the statistics of those who died from SARS as

opposed to other flu's or "mutated viruses" in the last five years?

It would be interesting to see those statistics. I haven't seen anything here in my state for those who died from SARS or even a very virulent flu last year where there were daily news reports about the "SHORTAGE OF VACCINES" and how we would all suffer from the worst flu ever last year. It just didn't seem to rate in the newspaper or on my local TV stations. I don't know anyone (in my immediate family or friends) who ever got the flu last year although I'm sure like most years there were many who did in our state, just like any year...but it wasn't an "EPIDEMIC" or something that even got coverage after Bush's initial SCARE TACTICS... :shrug:

We all want to keep our kids, ourselves, our elderly parents and relatives safe. But this is really OTT...constant postings about Bush's latest HEALTH SCARE. The guy doesn't believe in "Science" and neither do his followers. We OWN much of the WHO because of GLOBILIZATION.

Look at that failure John Bolton at the UN...he runs the show...mouths off against Iran every day...threatening and saying we will use force against Iran. Does the UN Sanction Bolton? Did the UN stop us from invading and occupying Iraq?

So ...you wanna believe the WHO...knowing that Bush took us to WAR on LIES and that we and BLAIR have unlimited influence in the World????

[SquireJons]

30. Yes, I do want to believe the WHO

Politics does invade everything, but it's foolish to assume that every warning is an attempt by the mis-administration to change the subject. Some things are real. As for SARS, there is no vaccine. You get it, you die. It's pretty simple. Yes, the neocons have their crack pot doctors and 'scientists', but there is too much international consensus on this issue of flu 0pandemics to lay this one at their feet. Personally, I think the S.I.D has it right. It's not a matter of if, but when. And unfortunately, I doubt there is a damned thing we can do about it.

[oblivious]

57. 774 people worldwide died of SARS in 2003; 36,000 Americans die from flu.

SARS
How many people contracted SARS worldwide during the 2003 outbreak? How many people died of SARS worldwide?
During November 2002 through July 2003, a total of 8,098 people worldwide became sick with severe acute respiratory syndrome that was accompanied by either pneumonia or respiratory distress syndrome (probable cases), according to the World Health Organization (WHO). Of these, 774 died. By late July 2003, no new cases were being reported, and WHO declared the global outbreak to be over. For more information on the global SARS outbreak of 2003, visit WHO's SARS website.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/sars/faq.htm

FLU
Now when we look at influenza, the deaths from influenza have increased from an average of 20,000 deaths per year to an average of about 36,000 deaths per year.

Now I want you to understand that these are average numbers. They're average numbers of deaths per year. When you look at individual seasons, the death totals from influenza can vary a lot, and they can range from really very few measurable deaths to, in bad years, up to 50,000 to 70,000 deaths, and so there's a wide range of deaths. The 36,000 is the average number but the range can go up as high as 50,000 to 70,000 deaths in bad years.
http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/transcripts/t030107.htm

[Bassic]

77. No more people died of SARS over here than

there are people who die of regular flu infections every winter.

[oblivious]

84. Right, over 100 times more people die of regular flu each year.

[Mojorabbit]

44. What might be behind it is that it is potentially

one of the biggest threats to the world right now both health wise and economically. The whole world is preparing for the worst. I think that makes it news but that's just me.

[EuroObserver]

63. The OP is correct and this is not a red herring, imo n/t

[MercutioATC]

17. My father runs a national health organization..he doesn't think it's hype.

Neither do the WHO or the CDC.

If H5N1 goes human/human, we're pretty much screwed. I think it's a real concern.

[fearnobush]

50. I hear you, I'm still waiting for the Chicken Hawk strain.

The mutated strain of H51N that only kills Chicken Hawks.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. Right. The 1918 Influenza Pandemic never happened....

...and a new Pandemic could never take place.

It's all a government plot.

Right.

[PhilipShore]

5. Global warming and/or genetically modified (GM) foods

I am not a scientist or a doctor, but my opinion is that all of these viruses are caused by humans tinkering with the natural order of things -- by means of Global warming and/or genetically modified (GM) foods.

[KoKo]

7. OFGS! GM foods don't have anything to do with "Bird Flu..."

Geeze...

[PhilipShore]

10. Can you cite -- a scientific article that says GM foods can't cause.....

Bird flu?

[FlaGranny]

14. Well, gee whiz, maybe it's because

there isn't any pathogenic virus DNA in GM foods. There IS bacteria in your yogurt, though.

[PhilipShore]

23. Dr. Joseph Mercola: Why Genetically Modified Crops Can Devastate Health

Dr. Joseph Mercola
Why Genetically Modified Crops Can Devastate Health
7/2/03

http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/2/gm_crops.htm

9. Genetic engineering creates super-viruses

By far the most insidious dangers of genetic engineering are inherent to the process itself, which greatly enhances the scope and probability of horizontal gene transfer and recombination, the main route to creating viruses and bacteria that cause disease epidemics. This was highlighted in 2001 by the 'accidental' creation of a killer mouse virus in the course of an apparently innocent genetic engineering experiment.

Newer techniques, such as DNA shuffling are allowing geneticists to create in a matter of minutes in the laboratory millions of recombinant viruses that have never existed in billions of years of evolution. Disease-causing viruses and bacteria and their genetic material are the predominant materials and tools for genetic engineering, as much as for the intentional creation of bio-weapons.

________________________________________________

PBS - harvest of fear
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/harvest/

New Scientist Special Report on GM Organisms
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/gm-food

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

64. Jesus Christ.

Mercola is a damned quack. However, I did learn a great deal about THE DANGERS OF GRAIN from his website.

[MercutioATC]

18. Can you cite a scientific article that says that clowns don't cause Lupus?

GM foods don't cause H5N1.

:eyes:

[KoKo]

19. Find me an article that says it DOES...and I will find you papers that

will call it into question. But, that would take some time and I get paid for deep searches...(scientific research). I'm giving an opinion from my experience...and if I spent hours giving research articles no one would bother to read them... You can take my opinion as garbage or do your own research..

I was hard on the Original Poster because every day they post a NEW BIRD FLU Warning...and that makes me wonder ..."what's up with that?" Why such an interest to keep posting every day about bird flu on DU..

Is it a valid warning or something else?

A "tip" just do a Google on "Bird Flu, GM Foods" and see what comes up. Do a Google on "Bird Flu, Agribusiness Concerns"...there are tons of combinations for those who want to do research to find some excellent research.

[MercutioATC]

22. My point was that it was a ridiculous request.

Can I find a scientific paper stating that GM foods don't cause H5N1? Of course not. I can't find a paper that says that clowns don't cause Lupus, either, but that doesn't mean that they do.

[KoKo]

25. Agree...my answer wasn't to you...sorry, but to #10...the OP, here. n/t

[MercutioATC]

27. Ahhh...gotcha :)

Been a while, by the way...

:hi:

How are things?

[PhilipShore]

26. Dr. Joseph Mercola: Why Genetically Modified Crops Can Devastate Health

Dr. Joseph Mercola
Why Genetically Modified Crops Can Devastate Health
7/2/03

http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/2/gm_crops.htm

9. Genetic engineering creates super-viruses

By far the most insidious dangers of genetic engineering are inherent to the process itself, which greatly enhances the scope and probability of horizontal gene transfer and recombination, the main route to creating viruses and bacteria that cause disease epidemics. This was highlighted in 2001 by the 'accidental' creation of a killer mouse virus in the course of an apparently innocent genetic engineering experiment.

Newer techniques, such as DNA shuffling are allowing geneticists to create in a matter of minutes in the laboratory millions of recombinant viruses that have never existed in billions of years of evolution. Disease-causing viruses and bacteria and their genetic material are the predominant materials and tools for genetic engineering, as much as for the intentional creation of bio-weapons.

________________________________________________

PBS - harvest of fear
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/harvest/

New Scientist Special Report on GM Organisms
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/gm-food

[MercutioATC]

32. Dr. Joseph Mercola is an osteopath.

He also has a financial interest in promoting natural diets.

What are his qualifications to draw a parallel between GM foods and "super-viruses"?

[Clara T]

33. Look at Dr. Mae Wan Ho's work on GMO's

particularly horizontal gene transfer.

Also look into the main viral promoter used in GMO's, the Caulifolwer Mosaic Virus (CaMV).

It's all wicked (GMO's) and is already wreaking havoc in many ways.

[PhilipShore]

36. Dr. Joseph Mercola -Osteopathic physician licensed to prescribe medication

Dr. Joseph Mercola is an osteopath.

Dr. Joseph Mercola
My Qualifications

http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm

And so, my qualifications: first and foremost, I am an osteopathic physician, also known as a DO. DOs are complete physicians who, along with MDs, are licensed to prescribe medication and perform surgery in all 50 states. But DOs bring something extra to the practice of medicine. Osteopathic physicians practice a "whole person" approach to medicine, treating the entire person rather that just the symptoms. With a focus on preventive health care, DOs help patients develop attitudes and lifestyles that don't just fight illness, but help prevent it, too.
http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm

[depakid]

40. Mercola is a quack

even citing his name causes you to lose all credibility....

[MercutioATC]

83. I know what a DO is.

I just don't see how being a DO gives Mercola more credibility when talking about disease vectors than, say, a podiatrist.

[KoKo]

37. Some of Mercola's articles do make sense but he's an Osteopath...and

that's not enough to qualify him as an "expert." While Osteopathic Medicine is currently recognized by the AMA...it's not like this guy has alot of extra academic credentials aside from writing lots of articles and some books and links to other money making enterprises in the holistic and natural foods area. (IOW's...who is paying him?) He is very popular given that "Google Search turns up page after page of references to him.

I have no problem with him being out there writing articles and having a following for what he says. I believe, myself, that holistic medicine is very important today since most mainstream Medical Schools devote little time to nutrition and lifestyle and how those factors could effect overal health of their future patients. Still, one needs to have some more credentials than being an Osteopath...to have a full view of whether a Pandemic in Bird Flu is upon us.

QUICK GOOGLE ON DR. MERCOLA:

Key Thoughts of Joseph Mercola, DODr. Joseph Mercola is an osteopathic physician, board certified in family medicine, who runs the Optimal Wellness Center, located outside Chicago in ...
thyroid.about.com/cs/expertinterviews/a/mercola.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages


He's dead on about Rummy's interests in Bird Flu with this article:


Who Owns the Rights on Tamiflu: Rumsfeld To Profit From Bird Flu Hoaxby Dr. Joseph Mercola. October 26, 2005. mercola.com · Email this article to a friend · Print this article. We bring to the attention of Global Research ...
www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=%20ME20051026&articleId=1148 - 41k - Cached - Similar pages


And this is why I have concerns about believing everything he says:


Amazon.com: Dr. Mercola's Total Health Program: The Proven Plan to ...
Featuring world-renowned natural health physician Dr. Joseph Mercola’s dietary program in Part One and over 150 healthy and delicious new recipes in Part ...
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970557469?v=glance - 124k - Cached - Similar pages
Dr. Joseph Mercola ArticlesMake money from home to fund your cause. Funding available today.
www.advancedhealthplan.com/rss_mercola.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

[PhilipShore]

42. Rumsfeld To Profit From Bird Flu and Corporate lawyers

Who Owns the Rights on Tamiflu: Rumsfeld To Profit From Bird Flu Hoaxby Dr. Joseph Mercola. October 26, 2005. mercola.com · Email this article to a friend

Yes, good article. I am not a lawyer, but I think that the panic you’re referring to is simply a corporate lawyer trick-- to gain an unfair advantage over the debate. The scam is to advocate that they are for something-- like in this case stopping bird flu, but in reality their only interest is in making money.

I even seen it myself, I filed a civil lawsuit concerning my grandfather’s Will/Trust in Florida recently; and the corporate lawyers all the way back from 1967 created a proceeding, in which they said they were representing me -- but it was bogus --they were not representing me they were representing their money interests; to get more money then me from the Will/Trust.

I did not find out until recently; and many years later because they never sent me notice of the proceeding -- that in theory was favorable to me.

But if they had not started the proceedings -- they would have not had the opportunity to rewrite my grandfathers will/ Trust, so as to benefit them with a ton of money, etc.

[Mojorabbit]

43. Most osteopaths I know(and I know a lot of them)

are indistinquishable from MD's in their practice. Most don't even crack backs anymore which is a shame.
The idea of treating the whole person and not just a symptom or disease is a good one.Nevertheless,even they think Dr Mercola is a crackpot.

[Nikia]

13. Domestic birds and pigs have brought us most flu

There doesn't have to be any intentional modification or climate changes. People are living in close proximity to animals which harbor viruses that can be transmitted to humans and vice versa, creating naturual genetic modification.

[Deja Q]

21. GM was meant to help feed an overpopulated planet.

Doesn't mean it's right, but there are limitations in this universe. And the next inhabitable planet is some distance away.

All we can do is the best we can.

[KoKo]

28. AYYYYYYY....It was a way for Monsanto to find new products to make

money for it's shareholders and CEO's. It was about "Business."

[humus]

91. lost footing on the land

In Africa, soil nutrients and water management are
the major limiting factors, not improved crop varieties.
Fertilisers are almost unused by Africa’s smallholder
farmers on staple food crops. The main result is a
massive and widely unrecognised deterioration of soil
health in Africa, by contrast with other developing
regions. Moreover, almost all crops in Africa are rain-fed
rather than irrigated, because of the absence of major
river systems for irrigation, electricity for irrigation
pumps, and other factors that limit irrigation. Rainfall is
highly variable and often inadequate over much of the
continent. Therefore the key entry point for African food
production is not improved crop varieties but
replenishment of soil fertility, coupled with improved
water management at the lowest possible cost. No
matter how good genetic improvement is, crops cannot
grow well without sufficient nitrogen and phosphorus.
This is a biological imperative that transcends
socioeconomic and political ones.
The crisis in soil health is a quiet catastrophe. Over the
decades, Africa’s small-scale farmers have removed large
quantities of nutrients from their soils without returning
them in sufficient quantities as manure or fertiliser.
Additionally, almost all crop residues have been
removed. These practices have resulted in a very high
average annual depletion rate—22 kg of nitrogen, 2·5 kg
of phosphorus, and 15 kg of potassium per hectare of
cultivated land over the past 30 years in 37 African
countries. This annual loss is the equivalent of US$4
billion in fertiliser.10 This widespread nutrient mining
has decreased soil organic matter, decreased the ability
of microorganisms to recycle nutrients, and the soil’s
water holding capacity.

http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/images/TheLancetHunger.pdf

[PhilipShore]

92. Welcome to DU! humus!

[Nikia]

11. Agriculture has brought us many diseases

Which is one reason why the Europeans had many more diseases to bring the Native Americans than vice versa. The fact that there are now many more animals involved and they are transported further distances away allows this disease and others to spread much more quickly than in the past.

[KoKo]

24. In our "Globilized World" with travelers going from country to country

the migration of diseases and mutations are with us. But, we've been travelling on planes from country to country for many decades now. So, it's hardly something to get hysterical about.

Are we all at risk for getting something that might come out of a foreign country that there isn't a medicine for? YES! But will it reach a pandemic that will wipe our whole continent out in just a few years...NO!

Why get in a tizzy about it...when it fits so well into the BUSH HYSTERIA. OSAMA .....OSAMA .......OSAMA.....BIRD FLU....BIRD FLU...BIRD FLU....SARS....SARS....SARS......Plague.....Plague....Plague...

It's COMING TO GET YOU TOMMORROW!! YOU WILL DIE!!!!!

Sheesh.....We are ALL GOING TO DIE... It's part of life.

[Deja Q]

20. Does China want a healthy economy or healthy dinners flying around?

Dinners for 1.5 BILLION people, by the way...

And would cutting costs have done anything?

I think the world society is beyond reproach right now.

Enjoy every minute.

You could eat a dinner and get sick to death afterward.

[KoKo]

29. Yes...a bowl of noodles made from GM Wheat and a portion of rice with

GM proteins is just what the Chinese diet was founded on....When one needs to feed Gazillions of folks to produce our Walmart products one does have to find new ways of doing it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper.

:sarcasm:

[Clara T]

35. Fowl play: The poultry industry's central role in the bird flu crisis

Fowl play: The poultry industry's central role in the bird flu crisis

Chicken concentrate

The transformation of poultry production in Asia in recent decades is staggering. In the Southeast Asian countries where most of the bird flu outbreaks are concentrated -- Thailand, Indonesia, and Viet Nam -- production jumped eightfold in just 30 years, from around 300,000 metric tonnes (mt) of chicken meat in 1971 to 2,440,000 mt in 2001. China's production of chicken tripled during the 1990s to over 9 million mt per year. Practically all of this new poultry production has happened on factory farms concentrated outside of major cities and integrated into transnational production systems.<1> This is the ideal breeding ground for highly-pathogenic bird flu -- like the H5N1 strain threatening to explode into a human flu pandemic.<2>

Nevertheless, the many papers, statements and strategy documents coming out of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), World Health Organisation (WHO) and relevant government agencies contain barely a whisper about the implications of industrial poultry in the bird flu crisis. Instead, fingers are pointed at backyard farms, with calls for tighter controls on their operations and greater "restructuring" of the poultry sector. The big poultry corporations are even trying to use the bird flu outbreaks as an "opportunity" to do away with what is left of small-scale poultry production.<3> "We cannot control migratory birds but we can surely work hard to close down as many backyard farms as possible," said Margaret Say, Southeast Asian director for the USA Poultry and Egg Export Council.

The reactions from some scientists are no less outrageous. Researchers in the UK are pursuing transgenic bird flu-resistant chickens. "Once we have regulatory approval, we believe it will only take between four and five years to breed enough chickens to replace the entire world population," said Laurence Tiley, Professor of Molecular Virology at Cambridge University.<4>

Backyard farming is not an idle pastime for landowners. It is the crux of food security and farming income for hundreds of millions of rural poor in Asia and elsewhere, providing a third of the protein intake for the average rural household.<5> Nearly all rural households in Asia keep at least a few chickens for meat, eggs and even fertilizer and they are often the only livestock that poor farmers can afford. The birds are thus critical to their diversified farming methods, just as the genetic diversity of poultry on small farms is critical to the long-term survival of poultry farming in general. The FAO knows this. Before the Asian bid flu crisis, it vaunted the benefits of backyard poultry for the rural poor and biodiversity and ran programmes encouraging it.<6> But today, with the H5N1 strain at the gates of Western Europe, it is more common to hear the FAO speak of the risks of backyard farming. This is a reckless mistake. When it comes to bird flu, diverse small-scale poultry farming is the solution, not the problem.

http://www.grain.org/briefings/?id=194



 

[KoKo]

38. In these times...it sure makes sense for Agribusiness to go after the

small farmer. I'll bet with the growth of "organic farming" we will suddenly hear alot of scares about small farms who are trying to compete against the Giant Food and Animal/Bird Mills by growing "small scale."

There's nothing these people won't do to go against anyone who threatens them. :-(

[Clara T]

41. The quote from the Gene Giants

is essentially "We plan to resolve this pandemic by genetically engineering the world's chicken supply."

I have the exact quote from some GMO spokesperson but am not into looking it up. I've been back and forth with otherwise clear thinking people on this entire nonsense of the suppose pandemic and most can't be swayed. They seem to need the urgency of crisis.

Since the bird flu was first "discovered" 6 years ago a total of about 90 deaths occurred and many of those are not conclusively proven as caused by the flu. Not really a crisis at all. Fear.


I promise you I don't have bird flu

[depakid]

46. I'm kind of surprised

Your posts usually evince scientific thinking on matters like this. Maybe you might want to run some searches on pub med.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

The keywords:

H5N1 hong kong 1997

(135 results)

or just plain and simple:

H5N1

(506 results)

will bring up some good abstracts to browse through.

I suspect they will change your opinion just a bit....

[Clara T]

47. Don't be

I've read most all on this.

It's a sham.

The WHO and the NIH have devolved into primarily political institutions betrothed to- part and parcel of Bio-Pharma.

I know the names and the players.

Be well.
:hi:

It's all in the milieu.

[depakid]

49. Think what you will....

I'll cast my lot with the epidemiologists....;-)

<on edit pub med is just a searchable database of medical and scientific journals. It's not beholden to NIH, it just resides on their server>

[PhilipShore]

48. NYT: Recent Spread of Bird Flu Confounds Experts

New York Times
Recent Spread of Bird Flu Confounds Experts
March 6, 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/06/international/europe/06flu.html

OZZANO EMILIA, Italy — As new outbreaks of bird flu have peppered Europe and Africa in recent weeks, experts are realizing that they still have much to learn about how migrating birds spread the A(H5N1) virus, leaving the continents vulnerable to unexpected outbreaks.

After new scientific research published in February clarified the role of wild birds in spreading the disease from its original territory in southern China, the virus promptly moved into dozens of locations in Europe and Africa, following no apparent pattern and upsetting many scientific assumptions about the virus and its course around the world. In fact, knowledge of how the virus is spreading in Europe and Africa is so rudimentary that experts say there is no way of predicting where it will strike next, although they are now certain that it will, again and again.

"We know next to nothing about this virus; we have only anecdotal information about where it exists and what birds it infects," said Vittorio Guberti, head veterinarian at the Italian National Institute for Wildlife here in a rural corner of northeastern Italy. He has been studying influenza in wild birds for more than 10 years.

"We don't even know where to focus. We have to sit and wait for the big epidemic to occur, and in the meantime there will probably be small outbreaks all the time."

[semillama]

72. Check the first line of that NYT article

"As new outbreaks of bird flu have peppered Europe and Africa in recent weeks, experts are realizing that they still have much to learn about how migrating birds spread the A(H5N1) virus, leaving the continents vulnerable to unexpected outbreaks."

That's because migratory birds are not the major vector in spreading the virus. If you look at how this thing has spread, it's been west-east. The major migratory bird routes are north-south. However, major rail lines that transport poultry and fertilizer made from poultry waste DO run west-east.

So, let's all be scared of migrating ducks, and ignore all the products made from poultry in virus-affected areas that get shipped in, because after all, we can't blame international commerce, can we?

The latest issue of National Geographic has a small but good article on this.

[Odin2005]

51. This thread is overflowing with psudoscientific babble

New diseases are caused by mutated microbes, not from "disturbing the natural order of things" or some such mystical baloney. EPIDEMICS JUST HAPPEN, MUTATIONS ARE A RANDOM THING. People who think this is some Neo-con or Big Pharma conspiracy are crazy. Do you people think the 1918 avian flu epidemic was some kind of conspiracy to? :eyes:

[PhilipShore]

52. Mutated microbes?

New diseases are caused by mutated microbes, not from "disturbing the natural order of things" or some such mystical baloney. EPIDEMICS JUST HAPPEN, MUTATIONS ARE A RANDOM THING.

Please speak in English; I have no idea what a “mutated microbe” is because I am not a scientist, and/or cite a scientific article that discusses your point.

[Odin2005]

54. OMFG, you don't understand what microbes are?

MICROBES: Microscopic organisms, such as bacteria, viruses, and protozoa.

MUTATION: An alteration in an organism's DNA caused by a mishap during DNA replication or from damage by the enviroment.

[PhilipShore]

55. Mutation - Alteration caused by damage to the environment, etc.

MUTATION: An alteration in an organism's DNA caused by a mishap during DNA replication or from damage by the environment.

According to -- Greenpeace International -- mutation can occur from environmental damage (pollution) caused by the -- GM scientific research itself. My guess is that Global warming can cause similar mutations.

[Odin2005]

56. You seriosly need to read a biology textbook.

Global warming can cause mutations? :rofl: And people wonder why I consider Greenpeace to be a bunch of wackos.

[PhilipShore]

58. How about a article discussing Global Warming, GM Foods, Bird Flu, etc.?

You seriosly need to read a biology textbook.

Given the fact that, even the experts don’t even know the cause of the Bird Flu according to the recent New York Times article above, I am not about to do research from a Intro to Biology book to find the answer.

I would much rather research this point; in scientific articles that discuss Global Warming, GM Foods and the Bird Flu, etc., and then look up scientific terms I don’t understand from a dictionary.

[Codeine]

65. Of course we know what causes bird flu

It's a flu virus, a new mutation. The flu virus mutates constantly -- that's why it's still around. You're arguing from a position of extreme ignorance of biology and viruses.

[PhilipShore]

66. Guberti veterinarian: "We know next to nothing about this virus..."

It's a flu virus, a new mutation.

NY Times
Recent Spread of Bird Flu Confounds Experts
March 6, 2006

But, what causes the Flu virus?

According to recent articles about the virus, one scientist says, that they know nothing about the Virus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/06/international/europe/06flu.html

"We know next to nothing about this virus; we have only anecdotal information about where it exists and what birds it infects," said Vittorio Guberti, head veterinarian at the Italian National Institute for Wildlife here in a rural corner of northeastern Italy. He has been studying influenza in wild birds for more than 10 years.

[PhilipShore]

69. CNN: Bird flu (avian influenza)

Of course we know what causes bird flu. It's a flu virus, a new mutation. The flu virus mutates constantly -- that's why it's still around. You're arguing from a position of extreme ignorance of biology and viruses.

I guess my point is, what are the strains that develop from the virus?


CNN
Bird flu (avian influenza)

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00566.html

Type A influenza viruses are further divided into strains, which are constantly evolving. And it is exactly this — the ability of influenza viruses to change their genetic makeup and to swap genes indiscriminately — that makes them so unpredictable and potentially deadly.

Faster than you can say antigenic
All living things change, but influenza A viruses change quickly, constantly and sometimes cataclysmically. This takes place in two ways:

Antigenic drift These are small, permanent, ongoing alterations in the genetic material of a virus. Because viruses aren't able to repair genetic errors that take place as they reproduce, new strains are continually replacing old ones. Once you have a particular strain of flu, you develop antibodies to it, but those antibodies won't protect you from new strains. In the same way, the flu vaccine you received last season won't ward off this year's bug.

[Codeine]

73. Thank you for making my point

Evidently we do know what causes the bird flu -- a regular old influenza virus strain. The flu virus makes all sorts of mistatkes when it reproduces, almost all of which are harmful to the survivability of the virus. Every once in a while the mistake produces a successful new mutation, that's why you can get the flu every time it goes around, because it's a new form.

No mystery, just the regular pattern that the flu has followed since time immemorial.

[PhilipShore]

60. Wikipedia: Ionizing radiation (including UV light) can cause mutations

Wikipedia
Talk:CFC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:CFC

The CFC page gives the mechanism through which CFCs catalyse the destruction of ozone - it is a fact that CFC is a very potent ozone-destroying catalyst, although the extent to which it is happening in the atmosphere is question.

The ozone layer page describes (though admittedly not in much detaiol) how one of ozone's most important features is its absorbance of UV light.

The radiation page lists how ionizing radiation (including UV light) can cause mutations leading to cancer.

[Codeine]

74. That's not the sort of mutation we're discussing

The flu virus mutates *constantly*, that's been its key to success. Every time it reproduces, which it does millions of times in your body, it has the potential to produce a viable mutation. Most of the time it produces a garbage result that doesn't go anywhere, but it makes enough mutations that eventually it gets one right.

It's been doing this for much longer than "Big Pharma", CFCs, global warming, ozone depletion, or GM crops have been around.

[SaveElmer]

76. This is true but...

Human activity can affect what direction the mutation takes. By vaccinating for example, new mutations gain evolutionary advantage. By industrial poultry production an environment is created which makes the transmission of unusually virulent mutations more possible than they would be in the wild. So while I agree that mutations of influenza viruses has always happened, it is wrong that the direction of those mutations has not bneed affected by human activity.

[Codeine]

78. On that point I'd agree nt

[PhilipShore]

82. Mutations from environmental pollution, etc., can cause the Bird Flu virus

It's been doing this for much longer than "Big Pharma", CFCs, global warming, ozone depletion, or GM crops have been around.

Interesting point, but I still cannot see the science to back up your points, because I think that pollution can and does create the environment for a virus to spread.

If your above theory were true, then the CNN article, about washing one hands to prevent Bird Flu, when in contact with Chickens does not apply, because the Virus would exist even if one did was their hands.

I am not a scientist or a doctor, but I can generally figure out – that being in a polluted environment can make one sick.

Big Pharma, CFCs, global warming, ozone depletion, or GM crops are elements that cause pollution to the environment, and thus diseases.

_________________________________________________

GNN - Air Pollution Causes Genetic Mutations

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/2004/05/13/airpollution.php

Six years ago Canadian scientists reported that sea gulls living near steel mills on the Great Lakes passed genetic mutations to their offspring at a much higher rate than did gulls in rural areas. The source of the mutations was not known at the time, but the prime suspect was air pollution because the gulls nearest the steel mills had the most mutations.

The researchers now report, in a study of mice, that air pollution almost certainly caused genetic mutations in animals and these mutations were inherited by the next generation. The mice with the mutations breathed air near a major highway and two steel mills in Ontario.

Still, the new findings suggest that genetic changes caused by pollution can be inherited. The researchers report today in Science that the mutations were caused by airborne particles in emissions from steel plants or automobiles.

“This is a remarkable and interesting observation, and it raises new concerns about the consequences of exposure to airborne pollutants,” says Jonathan Samet of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, who wrote an accompanying commentary.

[NickB79]

85. The effects from these sources is miniscule on flu mutation

Because the flu mutates at a rate that is unbelievably fast by the standards of more advanced organisms. Human-created pollution can cause significant mutations in plants and animals, but are a drop in the bucket compared to the mutations flu viruses already create randomly.

You never answered one question asked of you: was the 1918 flu pandemic, the worst the world has ever seen, caused by global warming, Big Pharma, or genetic engineering?

[PhilipShore]

89. Re: Was the 1918 flu pandemic caused by global warming, Big Pharma...

Was the 1918 flu pandemic, the worst the world has ever seen, caused by global warming, Big Pharma, or genetic engineering?

I am not a scientist or a doctor, so I do not know anything about the 1918 Flu pandemic, nor is science and historical pandemics -- and area I ever do research into, so I can only give my opinions from my own perspective.

My thoughts are that pollution caused by global warming, Big Pharma, or genetic engineering, could not of caused the 1918 flu pandemic, because my guess is Big Pharma, or genetic engineering, etc., perhaps did not exist in 1918.

My grandfathers and his brothers started the first supermarket chain in New England around then; and that was not in any way considered the big supermarket business. When, they were in business, they made their millions from being diversified, by being on the boards of banks, building hospital funds, Real Estate, etc., and starting the first supermarket chains, so they were just considered my guess is "big millionaires," not big pharma, or big food industry (supermarkets).

[Codeine]

86. WTF!?

>If your above theory were true, then the CNN article, about washing one hands to prevent Bird Flu, when in contact with Chickens does not apply, because the Virus would exist even if one did was their hands.

What are you talking about? You wash your hands to remove the virus from your skin before you inhale or injest it. Do you even know what a virus is? It's a super-teeny-tiny little replication machine -- it enters a cell and hijacks the cells reproduction system to make millions of copies of itself until the cell bursts open. All the little virii latch onto new cells and repeat. As they overload the system they begin to be ejected through coughing and sneezing into the air or onto other surfaces where they can be taken in by new hosts where the above cycle repeats itself.

Eventually your immune system (one hopes) figures out how to fight it and makes antibodies that effectively render you immune to the strain you're harboring at that time, meaning you'll never get that flu again. Of course, since it mutates all the time there's a new flu waiting just around the corner to kick your ass again next flu season.

The mutations referenced in the above article snippet refer to the sort of mutations that happen to our own genetic material. The genes of the flu virus are naturally mutation-prone and really don't require any outside force to mutate.

[PhilipShore]

90. What is pollution?

I am not a doctor or a scientist, so when I think of virus, I could care less about the medical definition that you have described -- my only concern is to preventing a virus from infecting me by prevention.

In addition, the best way to prevent a virus from infecting; is a pollution free environment, such as in the home, and to work on making the politicians have a regulative system, to prevent pollution, and thus diseases.

[Codeine]

93. Again I say, WTF!?

Pollution has nothing to do with a virus. Back in the pristine days of yore, when green forests swathed Europe and the air was fresh and clean people still contracted diease and were infected with viruses. While I laud your dedication to clean air and government regulation of pollution sources the fact that you are attempting to connect them to viruses is laughable.

This is one of the most singularly bizzare conversations I've seen on this board.

[Odin2005]

87. Flu is an RNA virus, most of it's mtations are...

because RNA viruses have a very primitive, ancient, error-prone replication system that predates DNA-based life.

[PhilipShore]

61. UN - Drug resistant strains of bacteria, resulted from modernity

U.S. Global Change Research Information Office
Climate, Ecology, and Human Health

http://www.gcrio.org/CONSEQUENCES/vol3no2/climhealth.html

According to the U.N. World Health Organization's 1996 report, drug- resistant strains of bacteria and other microbes are having a deadly impact on the fight against several diseases, including tuberculosis, malaria, cholera, and pneumonia --which collectively killed more than 10 million people in 1995. Spread of resistant organisms resulted from antibiotic overuse, microbial mutations, and the geographic movement of humans, insects, rodents, and microbes. Ironically, our very means to control infectious disease--antibiotics and insecticides--are, themselves, rapidly driving the evolution of new and unaffected strains. Notably, two thirds of antibiotic use is in animal husbandry, agriculture, and aquaculture.

An expected redistribution of infectious disease is but one of the biological consequences of global environmental change. In some regions of the globe, warming may at first appear beneficial. Plants may be fertilized by warmth and moisture, an earlier spring, and more carbon dioxide (CO2) and nitrogen. But warming and increased CO2 can also stimulate microbes and their carriers, and added heat can destabilize weather patterns.

[Codeine]

75. The flu is a virus

It has nothing to do with antibiotics, which are singularly ineffective against a virus.

[stepnw1f]

71. Don't Just Ridicule People

Inform them with information.

And another thing: "And people wonder why I consider Greenpeace to be a bunch of wackos."

I usually hear this from the Right Wing. Back up the accusation with information. Or just don't bother people.

[PhilipShore]

53. Greenpeace International: Say no to genetic engineering

not from "disturbing the natural order of things"

Greenpeace International
Say no to genetic engineering

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/genetic-engineering

While scientific progress on molecular biology has a great potential to increase our understanding of nature and provide new medical tools, it should not be used as justification to turn the environment into a giant genetic experiment by commercial interests. The biodiversity and environmental integrity of the world's food supply is too important to our survival to be put at risk.

Genetic engineering enables scientists to create plants, animals and micro-organisms by manipulating genes in a way that does not occur naturally.

These genetically modified organisms (GMO) can spread through nature and interbreed with natural organisms, thereby contaminating non 'GE' environments and future generations in an unforeseeable and uncontrollable way.

Their release is 'genetic pollution' and is a major threat because GMOs cannot be recalled once released into the environment.

[depakid]

59. Not to play devil's advocate... but...

Some new (emerging) diseases are "caused" by disturbing the natural order of things. Some call that little phenomena "the rainforests' revenge."

[Tsiyu]

62. Factory chicken farming relies on animals bred for meat or egg

production. There is very little genetic diversity in the factory farm. Under these conditions, with mass numbers of genetically similar poultry in close contact, mutations can occur quite rapidly.

Here is a website showing the endangered chicken breeds (scroll down.)

http://www.albc-usa.org/wtchlist.htm



Even the well-known Rhode Island Red is threatened. But the diversity and hardiness of backyard breeds protect them from rampant mutations.

I wish more people understood the ramifications of factory farming.

[Odin2005]

88. Yes but the exact source of a disease can be identified.

blaming it on vauge thing like "disturbing the natural order of things" doesn't tell us much. The proper scientific explaination, "HIV jumped from monkeys and chimps as a result of the bush-meat trade. The bush-meat trade is a result of the need to feed loggers and construction workers who are developing wild areas. Therefore, the developing of areas with said primates idirectly caused the HIV epidemic." is a lot more meaningful and helpful.