USSC rules colleges that take federal money must allow military recruiters

[jseankil]

U.S. Supreme Court rules colleges that accept federal money must allow military recruiters on campus, despite university objections to Pentagon's policy on gays.

Breaking cnn

[Nimrod2005]

1. Let the take over begin!!!

Take over of our country and govt. by rightwing Nazis!!!

[mom cat]

7. ollege students need to band together to protect their sisters and

brothers. Anti recruitment flyers everywhere.

[leyton]

11. They are free to ask their university to reject federal funds.

Frankly, the decision makes sense. The government policy might not sit well with us, but nobody's forcing the universities to accept the recruiters.

[RunningFromCongress]

14. exactly...Logical thinking

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. How much more in tuition would the average student be willing to pay

to make up for the loss in federal funds in order to not have militray recruiters in their campus? My guess is not very much.

[leyton]

60. My point exactly.

I'm a college student, and if I could cut my tuition in half by adding ten more recruiters at my school, well, I'd put out the welcome mat myself.

[druidity33]

45. yeah, right...

State Universities LIVE on Federal Funds... which means (gasp) only the poorer people will be unable to opt out. Private Unis make do with endowments and can afford to shirk Fed cash. Again, this will do nothing but put the burden on the backs of people who can least afford to support it. Fucking bastards.

[leyton]

61. Well, then they have to adhere to federal policy.

I'm not defending the government's policy, but the court made the right decision. Money comes with responsibilities attached, and the federal government is no exception.

[jwirr]

55. It depends on if they are including federal student loans

in the federal money. Then they would be hurting most of our democrats if they refused fed money. However I remember that during the demonstrations against Vietnam we were also upset by the money the government gave to some of the disciplines to do research and development for them. That money was supporting the war effort.

[sui generis]

13. not just flyers - but actual picket lines

maybe some statistics about your chances of survival in the middle east vs. winning your local state lotto, backdoor drafts, don't ask don't tell, poor medical and health coverage, substandard equipment, and recruiters bullying their way onto campus where they're not welcome.

[StuckinKS]

2. Wouldn't it be nice

to someday read the headline, "United States Supreme Court rules government that collects taxes from gays must provide equal protection to them, despite rightwing's objection to their existence.

[LSdemocrat]

3. Decision was unanimous

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/06/scotus.campus.recruiters.ap/index.html

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Monday that colleges that accept federal money must allow military recruiters on campus, despite university objections to the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays."

[Bandit]

43. What about students that accept Pell Grants?

Should they be forced to serve in the military. Seems like the same "logic" should apply.

[Radio_Guy]

46. I can see something similar happening here

Probably like Israel where military service is required for all males after high school. How do you get a military to overstep its bounds? You get a bigger military. And that is the repukes goal.

[jwirr]

56. Not just all guys - the girls are also required to serve,

[Lance_Boyle]

4. no problem

Recruiters must be allowed on campus... Universities should be well within their rights to limit those recruiters to predefined "free recruitment speech" zones, preferably 300' or further from the nearest students. It's the new *American* way.

[HuffleClaw]

5. DAMN, what a GREAT idea!!!!!!!

really, its inspired. and how would they possibly be able to challenge it when its government policy.

[saigon68]

6. Free Recruitment Zones

LOVE THE IDEA

There aren't a lot of "Low Hanging Fruit" on most college campuses

[leyton]

10. haha

I'm tickled.

[sui generis]

12. absolutely. That would actually be hilarious

Put them out in the animal husbandry shed of the agricultural unit where they belong -

But students need free access to picket and protest the recruiters too, so maybe a good thing to have them out where their "don't ask don't tell don't pay for medical services if your leg gets blown off" policies can be criticized.

[LiberalFighter]

65. Have every student wear a sign that they are gay or lesbian?

[meganmonkey]

30. LOL - and let's make sure

there is a tall chain-link fence around them :)

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[LiberalFighter]

64. Off limits to dorms, cafeterias, classrooms, libraries

Permitted on football fields while the game is in progress??
Maybe hockey games would be better for those universities that have teams?

[zbdent]

8. Fine - any private schools which

take vouchers . . .

[realFedUp]

9. link here

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1154AP_Scotus_Campus_Recruiters.html

[SaveElmer]

15. I hate to say it...but I'm glad this ruling went this way...

Though I do not like the idea that colleges have to accept military recruiters against their wishes, the Supreme Court has upheld federal authority in situations where the federal government puts restrictions on policies of those receiving federal money..

If they had gone the other way, the entire structure of the federal grant system, and laws imposing rules about equality in the workplace, uses of infrastcuctire funding, medicare funding, and a whole plethora of other worthwhile federal programs might have been in jeapordy.

This is just my initial thoughts on the matter

[LostinVA]

17. Exactly -- was thinking the same thing n/t

[Ratty]

16. I listened to some of the arguments

While disappointed, I thought the government had some very very good arguments. The university lawyers really didn't make a strong case. I don't remember the details anymore but some of the more effective arguments compared military recruitment to other campus activities. I don't remember any arguments about taking federal money, therefore having to pay a price, were particularly effective or impressed the judges much, it was really the way the government compared it to other campus activities. The judges also seemed interested in where one draws the line with activities and speech that violates local non-discrimination policies or not. I'm not surprised it was unanimous. The university's case was sadly very weak.

[MadMaddie]

18. What does it matter anyway....

The * Cabal will be cutting all government funding to Universities eventually...(if they are not removed) it's only a matter of time!!!

[guruoo]

19. I must agree (albeit reluctantly) n/t

[gr8dane_daddy]

20. SCOTUS supports recruiters on campuses

From MSNBC...

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Monday that colleges that accept federal money must allow military recruiters on campus, despite university objections to the Pentagon’s policy on gays.

Justices rejected a free-speech challenge from law school professors who claimed they should not be forced to associate with military recruiters or promote their campus appearances.

Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the decision, which was unanimous.

Law schools had become the latest battleground over the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy allowing gay men and women to serve in the military only if they keep their sexual orientation to themselves.

Many universities forbid the participation of recruiters from public agencies and private companies that have discriminatory policies.

Roberts, writing his third decision since joining the court, said there are other less drastic options to protest the policy.

“A military recruiter’s mere presence on campus does not violate a law school’s right to associate, regardless of how repugnant the law school considers the recruiter’s message,” he wrote.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11697530/

[Captain Hilts]

21. I kind of agree with this. Receiving federal money isn't like a cafeteria

you can't take just some items.

Let's have recruiters at fancy pants universities too.

[rodeodance]

22. sad day.

[Roland99]

23. dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2148083

[Craig3410]

24. And we can choose to completely ignore them. -nt-

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

25. Unanimous?

So is this a Free Speech issue, or about the rights of the Feds to impose whatever they want? Is Anybody now free to solicit on campuses, or does this just pertain to the military recruiters?

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Does the ruling say WHERE on campus they must be allowed?

I'm sure they can find an empty room and unused building or something.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. They have to treat them like other organization that recruit on campus

No better, no worse.

[HERVEPA]

27. Actually rules on the Solomon Amendment

Solomon amendment originally prohibited Defense Dept. money to schools not allowing the recruiters.
Later changed to prohibit any government money to the school.
Later changed to allow no government money to the whole university (i.e. not just the law school).

Latter made it basically impossible to refuse the recruiters.
School still may support protests, demonstrations, against the recruiting, and may make it clear what they think of it. But they need to give equal treatment as far as support services, setting up interviews, etc.

Law schools argued they were being forced to express an opinion supporting the discrimination. It was a very weak argument, I guess.

To rule for the schools, in my opinion, would have opened up the whole issue about whether the military has any valid reason to discriminate against gays. (which of course they don't).

[adigal]

28. So if a Christian college receives federal funding

can Gay and Lesbian groups now have functions on campus?

[SaveElmer]

29. Only if it is a condition of the funding...

Would have to be contained in the law!

[northzax]

31. reasonable.

you take the money, you allow the recruiters.

However, if I were the university, I would pass a rule requiring all potential recruiters on campus to state, upfront, to all potential applicants, any biases in hiring. Make military recruiters say "First off, we do not hire homosexuals"

as long as that rule applies to all recruiters on campus, it can apply to the military as well.

[stevekatz]

32. they do that

Before you sign on any dotted line at a MEPS station, the military's policy on homosexualuality is explained in detail.

[northzax]

33. no, I want any biases to be the FIRST thing

a recruiter says. Any recruiter. If someone doesn't hire Jews, I want them to say, first off, "Welcome to XXX. We don't hire Jews." Of course, anyone else who says this is banned from recruiting on campus...

Make the soldier say "My name is Corporal Smith, welcome to the US Army recruiting table, we don't hire homosexuals." Make everyone hear it, right off. Simply for the embarrasment factor for everyone.

[stevekatz]

34. actually...

The military can hire homesexuals, there are many gays serving right now in the Military (as I do)

So your entire point is mute..
You obviously don't understand current policy

[northzax]

40. perhaps you could explain the policy then

I was under the impression that telling anyone that you are homosexual is grounds for immediate honorable discharge. am I wrong there?

[stevekatz]

49. in detail

You can be gay,
You can't go around and advertise that your gay,

Thats the short answer, the long answer is more complex

----------------------------------------------------------

The Uniform Code of Military Justice states in Article 125---Sodomy

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused engaged in unnatural carnal copulation with a certain other person or with an animal. (Note: Add either or both of the following elements, if applicable)

(2) That the act was done with a child under the age of 16.

(3) That the act was done by force and without the consent of the other person.

-----------------------

Sodomy in the dictionary is defined as

Anal copulation of one male with another.
Anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
Copulation with an animal.

------------------------

The article is Arcane, but to break it down
You can be kicked out of the military for having Herterosexual sex with your wife. (dumb huh?) Via Anal/Oral sex, having sex with an animal, or having sex with a member of your own sex. Though cops don't bust down your door in base housing.

Has anyone ever been given the boot for having the above mentioned types of sex with a member of the opposite sex? Yes, I remember a case on a base I was stationed at where a couple (both military) were having sex at work somewhere and they were caught, the man broke down and told them everything, how long.. how, they had been having sex. And that information was used against both of them on thier discharge(they were charged with 125 offenses). I'm sure there are other such cases as well.

Before don't ask, don't tell.. the military could interogate suspected homo-sexuals and use that information and kick them out. Now if you keep it to yourself, they can't do anything to you. I know Bill Clinton got a lot of heat for this policy from the left, but in truth he did no have the authority to change the above UCMJ article. Only Congress can change the UCMJ,,, yep Congress.

Would it be contrary to good order and discipline to have gays serving openly in the military? Probably would be.. But 60 years ago it was just as touph to integrate the military racially. But know this, the military is not a place for social experiments, however it's something that should be changed, will it? Probably not for a long time.

Anyway, I don't have anymore time right now,


edit,
I didn't mean to imply in my ealier message that I was gay, I meant that I've met quite a few gay servicemen and women in my time.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. What college educated person doesn't already know that?

You would pretty much have to be living under a rock not to know that.

[northzax]

44. that's why the shame part comes in

make the recruitee listen to the discrimination terms first, see if they hang around for the second one.

[caligirl]

35. So does this GET UCSC OFF the terrorist watch list?

After M Recruiters visited and were basically shown the door the school was put on an enemies watch list. Senators and Congressmen are still waiting for an explanation.

[noonwitch]

37. I agree with this ruling (flame away)

If your school is going to take federal money, it should allow the military to recruit there.

I don't have a problem with the military having a presence on college campus, unless they are called there to enforce the law. We had an ROTC program at my University, and I had some friends who were in it. They were nice people, who couldn't have afforded a college education any other way. I was extremely fortunate that my parents could afford to pay for my education, most people don't get that kind of free ride.

If a private school chooses not to take federal money, they are free to ban military recruiters from recruiting on campus.

We are talking about college students-legal adults, free to make up their own minds about their careers and futures.

[Ken M]

47. Generic anti-military feelings are dangerous

"I don't have a problem with the military having a presence on college campus, unless they are called there to enforce the law. We had an ROTC program at my University, and I had some friends who were in it. They were nice people, who couldn't have afforded a college education any other way. I was extremely fortunate that my parents could afford to pay for my education, most people don't get that kind of free ride. "

Agreed. Note that Breyer and Ginsberg joined the opinion.

First of all, restricting recruitment increases the possibility of a draft. We should be pushing for laws (like alluded to above) mandating more honesty in recruitment. It would be awfully tough for the right to go on record opposing any such thing. But if we want a volunteer military, recruitment is neccesary.

Secondly, when the left bashes the military on a generic basis, it pushes its members towards the right. Does anyone really want a predominantly one-party military?

We should stick to bashing their irresponsible civilian bosses, particularly those who never served or weaseled their way into light duty.

[jseankil]

52. Agree with you on this Ken M. /nm

nm

[reclinerhead]

59. Thanks for the post

Hi Ken. On occasion I've been someone who feels a tiny bit alienated on this site when the thread turns to baseless bashing of the military. I was enlisted and I work now as a DoD civilian. I've been in or supported the military for about 15 years now. I'm only adding my opinion because you were already brave enough to.

The men and women I work with are not the problem. You're right; It's the chumps at the top of the food chain who've caused this backlash, not the sergeant or petty officer who works as a recruiter in the local neighborhood or campus.

Too often, though, these recruiters are the ones that have to bear the brunt of our frustrations and anger.

In my humble, low-post-count opinion, these recruiters represent the real military, and the real people that comprise it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Well, then. That would include private schools.

I certainly hope those recruiters don't discriminate and avoid the rich vein of Republican leaning students in private school.

[VegasWolf]

39. Fine. If one is stupid enough to fall for a recruiter's spiel and joins

the service with this administration running things, they aren't college material anyway.

[FlemingsGhost]

48. It's a start. When "the haves" start coming back in body bags ...

America might finally give a shit.

[azureblue]

50. Let the recruiters on campus

By all means! Let them come on campus. And don't let anyone protest against them! They have rights, too, you know.
Best way to do this is for the college to establish a "protest free zone" for the recruiters to set up in. Like the grounds keepers' tool shed. Well protected and out of harm's way. And it would be best if the recruiters stayed in that zone, to avoid potential conflict, of course.
Hey, it works for Bush.

[Big_Mike]

68. You obviously haven't read the decision.

Justice Roberts addressed this as primarily a hiring issue. The recruiters are trying to hire the graduates into a job. Same as any corporation, policy center, or other entity. If all recruiters, for whatever type job, were to be confined to that tool shed, then it could be done. But personally, I don't see law firms having senior partners or whoever is the recruiter accepting a tool shed, particularly if that recruiter is ALUMNI. All the court said, to include Breyer and Ginsberg, as noted above, is that there must be a level recruiting field. Frankly, given the scope of their arguments, it seems that if the students receive federal funding, the college couldn't cut off recruiter access. So I don't know about the private schools, particularly when you consider DARPA research projects that are done in just about every college in the country. Those are federal funds, as well.

[hootinholler]

51. Ok, so give 'em an office.

In the boiler room of the stadium, from which they must conduct recruiting efforts. They would be on campus and the legal requirements met for funding.

-Hoot

[yellowcanine]

53. Ok. Two can play that game. Stick the recruitment booth between

the Christian Peacemaker Team table and the Peace Corps table. Then have the peace club picket in front.

On edit: Also put up displays showing the number of U.S troops killed in Iraq, pics of U.S. casualties., pics from Abu Graib, etc. Use your imagination.

[jwirr]

54. My guess is that they will be wasting their time on most college

campus. If you are in college you are not interested in going off on some "adventure" with a bunch of buddies. However - if this is true for colleges is it also true for public high schools that recieve federal education money?

[erpowers]

57. Yes

That rule has been in effect for years.

[HockeyMom]

58. But STUDENTS are under no obligation to even listen to them,

let alone be NICE to them. From my daughter's reports of what happened in her upstate NY campus; the recruiters were jeered and cursed at, spit at, brochures ripped up and thrown about, tables overturned, etc. They hardly received a warm welcome. You want to go where you are clearly not wanted?

If this is what the government is pushing, let them be prepared for the consequences.

[Bill McBlueState]

62. Where is this?

College students everywhere I've been are so lukewarm it's sad. I'm glad they're still protesting the recruiters somewhere.

[HockeyMom]

67. SUNY

And to the previous poster, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I can for my daughter who had to deal with military recruiters 4 years ago under Leave No Child Behind. Just as an aside, her best friend from childhood was just shipped off to Iraq in January. To make a long story short, their friendship ended because of the Iraq War. Neither could understand the other's view points. My daughter told him, "I fear for your life. Yet, you are ready to die for GEORGE W. BUSH and his OIL?"

Back to the LNCB recruitment. I signed the opt out long before most parents ever knew about it 4 years ago. Yet, they waited until she turned 18 in her Senior year of HS to call. And he CALLED AND CALLED AND CALLED, All hours of the day and night. He would NOT take NO for an answer, although she told her No in as many ways as she could. It got so bad she would jump every time the phone rang, fearing it would be HIM. Nice way for a teenage girl to live, isn't it? Besides which, it was MY home and I didn't want him invading it. My daughter would be in tears saying she was afraid he would just show up at the house one day. How would you like having your teenage daughter live like that?

I could do NOTHING since technically she was an "adult". Finally, I said to her to tell him that she felt that he was stalking her and that if he didn't stop calling here, she would bring him up on stalking charges. He never called again.

So, please don't tell me or my daughter about military recruiters. We had enough of them during her high school years under Leave No Child Behind.

[ljaycox]

63. You know...

as disgusted as I am about the way this government acts, if I saw some pampered witless students treating volunteer members of our armed forces that way, I would want to put my boot right in their smelly, spotted little asses. Attitudes like yours or theirs make me sick. They discredit the idea of opposition. You should be ashamed to even talk like this.

[Guaranteed]

66. The military takes federal money- shouldn't they have to allow gays? nt

[Rex]

69. At least once a week the recruiters are on my HS campus

and we live in a poor rural town. Leave it to the Suit Court to decide what's best for young minds and bodies. :(