Argentine soldiers die in plane crash (AP)

[Up2Late]

(Sounds like a bomb, but for some reason most of the news services are down playing or not reporting the explosion at all)

Argentine soldiers die in plane crash

Troops were returning from flood aid mission to Bolivia

Friday, March 10, 2006 Posted: 0128 GMT (0928 HKT)

LA PAZ, Bolivia (AP) -- An Argentine air force plane providing aid for Bolivian flood victims crashed outside of La Paz on Thursday, killing all six people on board, authorities from both countries said.

The Learjet 35A was returning from the Bolivian capital to Argentina when it apparently had a mechanical failure, said Argentine air force Commodore Guillermo Lozada. The cause of the crash will be investigated, Lozada said.

The plane crashed in Bolivia's high plains about 12 miles (20 kilometers) southeast of La Paz, Bolivia's capital, according to local Radio Fides. Witnesses said they heard a loud explosion before the plane went down. "The plane completely disintegrated," said Col. Johnny Vera of the Bolivian armed forces.

The Argentine Embassy could not immediately confirm the victims' names. The plane had been providing technical support to an Argentine team of aid workers in Bolivia to help flood victims, said Pablo Prosperi, spokesman for the Argentine Embassy in Bolivia.

(more at link below)

<http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/03/09/bolivia.plane.crash.ap/>

[Karmakaze]

1. Not all explosions are caused by bombs

You shouldn't assume a bomb is responsible for this explosion as it could be any number of things from an engine explosion to fuel tank. It is also not impossible that no explosion at all occured and what was heard was a sonic boom caused by the plane breaking the sound barrier while in a steep dive. Such a dive would also likely result in the aircraft breaking up as such aircraft are not designed for the excessive forces induced by such a dive.

[Up2Late]

2. This wasn't a plane in a steep dive, it broke up during take off...

...which is generally between 100 to 300 knots.

Here's the report that caused my suspicion: <http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=11484357&src=rss/worldNews>

Six Argentine military killed in plane crash

Thu Mar 9, 2006 04:29 PM ET

LA PAZ, Bolivia (Reuters) - Six Argentine military officials were killed on Thursday when their plane crashed as it was taking off from El Alto airport near La Paz, a Bolivian air force official told local radio.

The official said all six people on board the executive jet were killed when the plane disintegrated soon after leaving the runway at about 3.30 p.m. local time (1930 GMT).

"The plane rose and as it was in mid-take off, it disintegrated," the air force spokesman said, adding that the aircraft was returning to Buenos Aires.

The military officials had been in neighboring Bolivia as a support team to a humanitarian mission organized by the Argentine government. No government officials were among the dead, the spokesman said.

It's called speculation, and to not speculate, given to all the recent destabilizing factors in this part of South America, the long history of wars that have suspicious origins and the history of this type of thing happening soon after a new government, that the U.S. publicly came out and said they are not happy with, are not happy the they won the recent election, a government that the U.S. has called "Leftist" and not a friend of the U.S., I think suspicion and speculation is in order.

I don't know if you know this, but recently de-classified documents have show that very similar U.S. Governments, very similar to the one we have now, were behind most of the South and Central American Wars over the last 50 years.

And in regard to the Jet, the engines are in the rear of this extremely common Lear Jet, and when the Air Force spokesman says, "The plane rose and as it was in mid-take off, it disintegrated," I'd call that good reason to be suspicious, especially when military personnel are involved.

Rear engine jets don't just disintegrate on take off, if an engine exploded, it would have crashed in the usual way, in a controlled crash, not disintegrate mid-take off.

Usually, when someone speculates, the way I am, usually a debate begins.

Scolding someone for beginning a debate and asking these types of questions (which is what this type of discussion forum is for) is not only socially wrong, it's down right rude.

At this point, it's best to question everything until some clear answers begin to emerge.

[High Plains]

3. Okay, but the US doesn't have any particular beef with Argentina.

They're mad at Bolivia so they blow up some Argentines? Hmmm, I suppose we could engage in some complex conspiracy theories, but at this point, that would be baseless speculation.

It might be good to have some facts before we speculate too much.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. But other reports make "mid-take off" sound inaccurate

The plane crashed in Bolivia's high plains about 18 miles (30 kilometers) southeast of La Paz, Bolivia's capital, according to Col. Johnny Vera of the Bolivian armed forces.

Witnesses said they saw the plane on fire in the air and flip before crashing.

It apparently crashed five minutes after take off.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/3/10/apworld/20060310110827&sec=apworld

The aircraft crashed at around 1530 local time (1930 GMT) shortly after take-off from El Alto airport near Bolivia's main city, La Paz.
...
Local radio said the aircraft was en route to the city of Santa Cruz when it crashed near La Paz.

"The plane disintegrated over an area of about 2 km," a Bolivian military spokesman said. "Unfortunately there were no survivors."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4791772.stm

El Alto airport is "14km SW of La Paz" , so the plane was quite a distance from the airport, and 2km is quite a large area for a "mid-take-off" crash.

[Up2Late]

7. Interesting, often these sort of inconsistencies happen due to...

...poor translation, and sometimes during a cover-up. It will be interesting to see how this story evolves over the next few days. Hopefully they will all get their stories straight and start reporting the same thing.

It so difficult to trust anything the American media says these days, especially about what happens in South America.

[Karmakaze]

6. Im sorry if I sounded like I was scolding...

I didn't mean to. As for speculation leading to debate, of course you are right, and that is what I was trying to do, assuming by "debate" you mean a discussion between opposing viewpoints. Finally, when you say "question everything", does that not include your opinion?

In any case you are right it is highly improbable that overspeeding could have been the cuase of disintegration on take-off, unless the description of "take-off" in this case is rather broad and the jet was already at quite a high altitude. I must say though that you are wrong about an engine explosion not being capable of leading to disintegration. Firstly in a multi engine jet unbalanced forces can cause huge stress to essentially empty tubes of aluminium that may have also been damaged by the explosion itself. Add to that the possibility of an engine explosion leading to a fuel tank explosion and I can easily envision a light jet coming apart in mid-air.

Another possibilty is direct structural failure - stress fractures in one of a handfull of critical load bearing structures could result in a rapid disintegration of a light aircraft, which itself could lead to a fuel explosion.

Im sorry, but your response doesn't sound like someone looking to debate the possibilities. You sound like you have come to a conclusion of what caused the crash and do not want to hear opposing viewpoints. It sounds to me like what you are expecting us to do is "debate" on the people behind YOUR chosen cause, and the ramifications thereof.

The limited information in that article could not possibly be enough to form such a solid opinion on the cause, so your defensiveness in this case is a bit pre-mature.

[Up2Late]

8. There you go again, making conclusions about my motives....

...when my original statement was ONE sentence, looking for more info. I see now that I had a rather important typo when I wrote: "Sounds like a bomb, but for some reason most of the news services are down playing or not reporting the explosion at all" (I left off the punctuation mark, which was should have been a Question mark), so the confusion is understandable.

My question, was a request for more News reports and info, and as you will see above, the different News organizations are reporting conflicting accounts, so I'm still not ready to make any conclusions and am keeping an open mine on this subject.

Due to the nature of the News media, these days, and the Government spin of all the different governments involved, we may never know the true answers. We could spend days debating the issues here, but without clear and consistent information, it would be a complete waste of time, time I can't afford to waste, so I won't.

If you want to continue to speculate about what could have happened with the limited information available, feel free to do so, I'm moving on.

[Up2Late]

4. kick n/t

:kick: