SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq

[ECH1969]

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/12/ixhome.html

[leftchick]

1. My New Hero!

:loveya:



It takes a hell of a lot more courage to stand up to these fascists than most amerikans know.

<snip>

Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Mr Griffin eventually told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the war's conduct.

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March.

[pretzel4gore]

4. courage under fire!

wow....amazing thing to see!

[wakeme2008]

11. MMMmm oh Toni......

""I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March."


This is just my personal opinion, but the fact that the higher ups in SAS allowed him to resign tells a lot about what they believe in too.

[Blue_Tires]

14. good point nt

[leftchick]

19. I agree with your opinion.

I think it is now plain for all to see.

[Zhade]

24. Indeed.

NT!

[wordpix2]

50. better a court martial than butchered in Baghdad fighting an illegal war

for US

[0007]

13. Mine too!

:hi:

[Divernan]

2. If US soldiers are doing this, we'll never hear about it.

They'll be locked away incommunicado - no calls home or for legal counsel, Star Chamber court martials and then locked away - the equivalent of Gitmo.

[LibertyorDeath]

26. "If" If....

[Catrina]

38. Kevin Benderman did it, for exactly the same reasons and he's serving

15 months in prison now ~

He needs support ~ the army will not give him a CO hearing, nor has he been able to file an appeal ~

His website is in my tagline ~ it helps if he knows that he still has support ~ you can email him at the website ~

I hope one day when those who started this illegal war are brought to justice, that people like Kevin and this brave soldier will be vindicated.

They are the true heroes. I hope more follow their example ~

[Greeby]

3. You've done my grandfather's regiment a service

[IndianaGreen]

5. US troops viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen"

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

Many of those US troops and their officers are Xtian jihadists, and they view anyone from another faith or denomination as heretics.

[Maraya1969]

21. THAT is where the Freepers get their racism. It all trickles down from

our repukable leaders in the White House. These soldiers are taught these things.

I refuse to believe that they are inherently bad. I believe they are being trained to do what they do and part of their training is to believe Iraqi's, (and maybe all Muslims) are evil.

There HAS to be a certain amount of brainwashing going on in the military.

The whole thing boggles me.

[jbnow]

37. I was thinking the same thing

If the leaders encouraged respect of the culture, tradition and people I bet a majority of soldiers would act that way.
It might be normal to devalue the enemy if you are going in to kill and defeat only.
But to keep the peace...it can only do the opposite.

And it is very sad.

Lines from that old Lovelace poem I learned in high school comes to mind (To Lucasta, Going to the Wars)
I could not love thee, dear, so much,
Loved I not honor more

Where is the honor?

[niallmac]

44. I get the feeling the brain washing takes no hard scrubbing.

There seems to me to be an incredible logic hole in the minds of many Americans when it comes to religion.
Did I not read a recent Gallup Poll that said over 50% of Americans believe in Creationism as opposed to the Theory of
Evolution?
I read that and thought "HOLY CR-P!"
I shared this personal new bit of knowledge with my co-workers and got a whole lot
of uncomfortable silent stares!!
That was two days ago and I still feel like a character from The Body Snatchers.
My co-workers absolutely must honor science to do their jobs.
But then come Sunday services and suddenly it's Adam and Eve and little red apples.
As a nation we are very vulnerable IMHO to religious despotism and evil actions in the name
of Christian cleansing of the misguided countries of the world.
I can march against war. I can fight for progressive representation.
I can't fight religious dogma that is woven into the very swaddling clothes of my countrymen and women.
Over FIFTY PERCENT!!!!!

[genie_weenie]

57. I don't know how to respond

to your allegation. My time in the Corps we had numerous classes and briefs, many from Iraqi-Americans and persons of Muslim faith, as well as, Assyrian Christians from the Habbaniyah area and a Jewish man born in Baghdad.

My CO and my unit stressed on every occasion respect and tolerance.

Now, you are correct to say there is "brainwashing" going on in the military but that's nothing new. And the indoctrination occurs outside the military as well. Can you think of any hollywood films that stress the BOND between soldiers? I can't... :sarcasm:

The brainwashing is to this false higher ideal of Unit, Corps, Country and descends from Utilitarianism, they greatest good for the greatest number of people. Which, when taken to it's final form leads to the worst atrocities...

The real issue is this(IMO): take a bunch of 18-30 year old males, who in America have been bombarded from the earliest stages of understanding to believe in the strong alpha male American,, give them an horrific incident (9/11), turn them loose with guns and bombs, surround them with a culture that is alien, place them in harms way everyday without knowing if that 13 year old boy 200 yards from the road has a detonator to an IED, give them an amorphous never ending struggle and what do you get?

Of course, I now by just sheer numbers a percentage of military persons harbor "evil" desires and have done terrible things in Iraq, but those people would be doing those things her in america if given a chance.

[K-W]

58. There is more than a little brainwashing involved in turning a human being

into a killing machine.

[wordpix2]

51. in the '90's I was paid to photograph a Repub event in my small town &

was appalled at the speakers' derogatory in-jokes about African-Americans. The racists in the GOP are rampant, at least back then.

[SongOfTheRayne]

6. Now watch as this story gets into NONE of the newspapers....

Gag ordered. *shakes head* Free country my ass.

This is a bit off-topic, but my thoughts on people joining the military are that, you have to be willing to die, not only in defense of your country by taking orders, but be ready to die at the hands of your own army for disobeying orders. That is the only way to defend freedom.

Mainstream media is censored. The army can kill you if they get the hint that you're about to express ideas different from those of a doormat. Congress and the rest of the government can have their own power used against them by the Bush administration. It begins to seem like the only way to make a difference is to work independent of any American institution, travel the world doing volunteer work and making speeches for which i become known as a crazy person, and get a book that they would not publish in America published in South Africa (where i heard that they have something called free speech...0_o...)

[cali]

7. We owe him a debt of gratitude

for speaking out. I'd love to see him do a speaking tour in this country.

[SongOfTheRayne]

9. CIA might kill him, but yes, if he did a tour, that would be wonderful.

It would provide the American people with priceless insight as to what's actually happening over there.

[wakeme2008]

12. CIA kill an SAS trooper

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SongOfTheRayne]

15. You really trust them not to?

[wakeme2008]

16. No they may try

but SAS are not Lawyers out quail hunting with Cheney. And even IF they got lucky with this one, YOU do not want to be on the wrong side with the SAS against you......

[Greeby]

17. No kidding

Obviously the activities of Her Majesty's SAS are top-secret. But suffice to say, killing is their business. And if you cross them, business will be good

[wakeme2008]

18. And they would know of every CIA officer in the UK.

This would not be pretty.

[BikeWriter]

64. He is an SAS Troop. 007 was a fictional model of one.

[VegasWolf]

8. Way to go!! Now I've found a great new word to describe the Bush cabal.

[VegasWolf]

10. Poor Bush!!! Always having to deal with all this negative PR.

:nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity:

[Maraya1969]

20. Let's make sure we do not blame the soldiers. Like in VietNam people

were driven to doing extreme acts that they never would consider in another situation.

These men and women are in a horrible, un-winable, dangerous and anxiety ridden war. Most do not want to be there, (I've been told by horse's mouths). I don't know how I would act if I was in their situation and I probably cannot imagine well enough what it is like to be in their situation.

Don't forget who the evil ones are. They are stationed at the White House.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibertyorDeath]

27. Good post

There's way to much
"burn motherfucker, burn" in the current
US Military.

Just exactly how does one "spread democracy in the middle east" by detaining and torturing innocent civilians or committing random acts
of violence against those you are supposedly
there to help.

War crimes are war crimes if you try and mitigate war crimes because it's your side
committing them then you are a big part of
the problem imo.

[RazzleDazzle]

29. The current crop of troops volunteered to get money for school

or get some healthcare for their toddlers, or as guardsmen make a little money weekends while they're underpaid as firefighters and EMT folks. Your disdain and contempt are misplaced, in large measure.

Put another way: you goddamned better support any individual troop UNTIL you find out if he or she is personally contemptible or just as much a victim of this war as any of the hundreds of thousands of OTHER victims of this war.

[KeepItReal]

31. Some like Pat Tillman signed up to actually have a shot at Al Qaeda

They did not know that Bush & Co. would f*ck up letting them go after the people who had something to do with 9/11.

At least Tillman was on the ground in Afghanistan as a Ranger fighting the good fight. Anybody that volunteered after 9/11 and got sent to Iraq got used. Totally. I feel for those troops. Trying to do the right thing, but getting sent to Iraq for some bullsh*t.

[SquireJons]

34. I'll go that far

Afghanistan was far different than Iraq to me. The Taliban was complicit to the attacks on New York and Washington. Iraq wasn't. So the folks who were truly motivated by patriotism to lay their lives on the line to fight a real enemy do deserve our respect and support. It's a damn shame that they then got sent to Iraq, but they should have thought of that before they signed up. Or they should have resisted when sent. I know many tried.

[wordpix2]

54. don't forget BushCo publicly stated many times that Saddam & al-Quaeda

were working hand in hand, when we now know that isn't/was never true. There was one al Quaeda training camp in the north part of Iraq that Saddam didn't control but BushCo has never set the record straight.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

39. We should never forget there is an "economic draft" in this country

It cannot be said too often that the US chooses to underfund high schools, raise tuition and fees for public colleges, and export blue collar middle class jobs.

Our government then steers money toward the military so they can promise enlistees training that can be used in civilian life (oh, really?) and money for college.

Beyond that, I can never forget that about September 15, 2001 both of my kids told me and their dad that they were thinking of enlisting to defend our nation. The smoke was still rising from that gigantic hole in the ground in New York City. To want to defend your people even at cost of your own life is a noble impulse and should not be despised.

Considering how Bushco has betrayed our troops, I thank the gods my kids decided to wait and see. When I see the young faces of our dead soldiers on the news, I find myself thinking they could be my son or daughter. :cry:

The betrayal of our troops has come from on high -- and continues after they come home, because Bush has cut funds for veterans' services.

So whatever I may think of Bush, Rumsfeld, and the rest of that evil lot, I do support the troops. I want them to come home. I hope each one of them will then be judged as an individual, and helped to heal.

Hekate

[SquireJons]

61. Well said n/t

[Maraya1969]

36. Well, I dated a guy who spent time in VietNam and he told me of

a few horrific things he personally did. He felt terrible about it and he was not a violent man at all. I guess some signed up and knew they were going to fight but some just thought they would get the training and benefits.

When Wilma went through here last summer we were without electricity for a week. I don't know if you realize how bad that is and it is made so much worse when you know that the fucking government waits until Wednesday to send for help from places like Iowa when the storm hit on Sunday.

Anyway, blah blah and blah. I have always been a person who will pick up garbage in other people's yards and I recycle and try to keep my planet healthy. At the end of the week I went to this convenience store, (running on generators) and there was garbage all over and I ate a candy bar or something and then I had this weird impulse to throw the wrapper on the ground. I NEVER do that. I would put it in my pocket and take it home rather than throw it on the ground but something made me want to destroy more of what was destroyed.

That was a very enlightening moment for me. People act different in different situations. Victor Frankel's book Man's Search for Meaning is, I think the first time that concept was explained to me. He was in a concentration camp in Germany and he talks about how different people reacted to the situation. It's a great book.

Well that is my sermon for the day. Thank you and good night!:)

[BikeWriter]

63. Thank you, Maraya.

[Zhade]

22. Heroic decision.

I applaud this man speaking the truth!

[troubleinwinter]

23. THAT is true courage, and putting his honor on the line.

[UTUSN]

28. He will be the target of the next generation of SwiftBots (w/o the boats)

[KeepItReal]

30. "I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy,"

That statement says it all.

[VegasWolf]

33. This mess is going to raise a real stink for Bush. What a shame. Not. nt

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[WePurrsevere]

41. Only if the American public hears about it, although if it causes trouble

for Blair that's all to the good as well. :D

[NYC]

35. Potentially profound impact on other cases.

...It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary, eight-year career in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan.

But it will also embarrass the Government and have a potentially profound impact on cases of other soldiers who have refused to fight.

On Wednesday, the pre-trial hearing will begin into the court martial of Flt Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, a Royal Air Force doctor who has refused to return to Iraq for a third tour of duty on the grounds that the war is illegal...

...{Ben Griffin} was discharged with a testimonial describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

Last night Patrick Mercer, the shadow minister for homeland security, said: "Trooper Griffin is a highly experienced soldier. This makes his decision particularly disturbing and his views and opinions must be listened to by the Government."

[file83]

40. At least ONE soldier is taking his oath to defend the...

...U.S. Constitution seriously. So that's what they mean, an "Army of One".

[annabanana]

43. (this one is British - I don't know their oath). . . . .eom

[TheBaldyMan]

47. I promise to serve Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors

or at least that how it starts, I don't recall the rest. No mention of the U.S. constitution but you do take a solemn oath to serve the crown.

I have a lot of sympathy for Mr. Griffin, he must feel really lousy leaving his unit.

[SongOfTheRayne]

62. Exactly. To fight for freedom you must be willing to

die, not only taking orders, but to die for going against them.

[WePurrsevere]

42. REAL courage, conviction and integrity... what an amazing person.

As for "illegal acts" by US troops... sadly you will get those people that are cruel by nature or use the military as a venue to get their anger over other issues out. You also get those who are basically decent human beings that go in to get an education or buy the BS about "see the world".

[Stockholm]

45. SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq

By Sean Rayment

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegal
He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.

more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/12/ixhome.html

'I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy'
By Sean Rayment

He said: "I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong. I knew, so others must have known, that this was not the way to conduct operations if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of the local population. And if you don't win the hearts and minds of the people, you can't win the war.

snip

Mr Griffin said he believed that the Americans soldiers viewed the Iraqis in the same way as the Nazis viewed Russians, Jews and eastern Europeans in the Second World War, when they labelled them "untermenschen".

"As far as the Americans were concerned, the Iraqi people were sub-human, untermenschen. You could almost split the Americans into two groups: ones who were complete crusaders, intent on killing Iraqis, and the others who were in Iraq because the Army was going to pay their college fees. They had no understanding or interest in the Arab culture. The Americans would talk to the Iraqis as if they were stupid and these weren't isolated cases, this was from the top down. There might be one or two enlightened officers who understood the situation a bit better but on the whole that was their general attitude. Their attitude fuelled the insurgency. I think the Iraqis detested them."

more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/12/ixhome.html

The fatal divide at the heart of the Coalition
By Max Hastings

Here is a quote from a British security contractor in Iraq about his American counterparts: "I hate those bastards more than the scumbag insurgents." A British colonel recently returned from a tour in the country said that, in our next war, he would sooner fight alongside the Russians than the US.

This is another quote from a British security contractor: "The American way is not my way. I don't mind a scrap but I draw the line at mooning the enemy and inviting him to shoot at my backside, and that's virtually what the Yanks are doing. I'm also convinced that many Americans hate the Iraqis, not just the insurgents but all Iraqis… What a mess."

Those last lines are taken from a rather good new book about the experience of Iraq today, Highway To Hell, written by an ex-SAS man who signs himself John Geddes. My point in all the above, is to show that Ben Griffin, the former SAS soldier who vents his dismay about what is happening to Iraq in today's Sunday Telegraph, is not a lone voice.

There is a widespread belief in both British special forces and line regiments that American tactics are heavy-handed and counter-productive; that firepower continues to be used as a substitute for a "hearts and minds" policy; that local people will never be persuaded to support Coalition forces unless Americans, in uniform and out, treat ordinary Iraqis vastly better than they do today.

more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/12/do1201.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/03/12/ixhome.html

And all this from the Conservative Telegraph :wow:

[babylonsister]

46. Dammit! Who is running this show? nt

[Amonester]

49. Here's (one of) the mob$ter$ who run$ it:

"Richard Bruce "Dick" Cheney (born January 30, 1941), is currently (since 2001) the 46th Vice President of the United States under President George W. Bush. He has previously served as White House Chief of Staff, member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Wyoming, and Secretary of Defense. In the private sector, he was the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Halliburton Energy Services."

...

"In November 1962, at age twenty-one, Cheney was convicted for the first of two offenses of Driving While Intoxicated (DWI). According to the docket from the Municipal Court in Cheyenne, Wyoming, Cheney was arrested for drunkenness and "operating motor vehicle while intoxicated." A Cheyenne Police Judge found Cheney guilty of the two charges. Cheney's driving license was suspended for 30 days and he had to forfeit a $150 bond posted at the time of his arrest.

Eight months later, in July 1963, Cheney was arrested in Rock Springs, Wyoming. Complete records are no longer available but a police arrest card maintained by the Rock Springs Police Department shows that Cheney was fined $100 for his second DWI conviction."

...

"Cheney was of military age and a supporter of the Vietnam War but he did not serve in the war, applying for and receiving five draft deferments. On May 19, 1965, Cheney was classified as 1-A "available for service" by the Selective Service. On October 26, 1965 the Selective Service lifted the constraints on drafting childless married men. However, after his daughter was born, Cheney applied for and received a reclassification of 3-A, gaining him a final draft deferment. In an interview with George C. Wilson that appeared in the April 5, 1989 issue of the Washington Post, when asked about his deferments the future Defense Secretary said "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service.""


And many more (if C$M would even dare... BUT: they're part of his Mob) at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney

[Rex]

48. Can't blame the guy, hope he sleeps easier at night now.

He will always have the memories of what went on or maybe they are nightmares. Iraq seems to be one big nightmare.

[otohara]

52. He's Yummy

you are my hero

[leQ]

56. i agree, on both fronts. (n/t)

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. See also the interview with him

"The Americans had this catch-all approach to lifting suspects. The tactics were draconian and completely ineffective. The Americans were doing things like chucking farmers into Abu Ghraib or handing them over to the Iraqi authorities, knowing full well they were going to be tortured.

"The Americans had a well-deserved reputation for being trigger happy. In the three months that I was in Iraq, the soldiers I served with never shot anybody. When you asked the Americans why they killed people, they would say 'we were up against the tough foreign fighters'. I didn't see any foreign fighters in the time I was over there.

"I can remember coming in off one operation which took place outside Baghdad, where we had detained some civilians who were clearly not insurgents, they were innocent people. I couldn't understand why we had done this, so I said to my troop commander 'would we have behaved in the same way in the Balkans or Northern Ireland?' He shrugged his shoulders and said 'this is Iraq', and I thought 'and that makes it all right?'

"As far as I was concerned that meant that because these people were a different colour or a different religion, they didn't count as much. You can not invade a country pretending to promote democracy and behave like that."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml

[Barrett808]

55. British soldier quits army, accuses US troops of illegal tactics in Iraq

LONDON (AFP) - An elite British soldier reveals that he quit the army after refusing to fight in Iraq anymore on moral grounds because of the "illegal" tactics used by US troops on the ground.

Ben Griffin, a member of the Special Air Service (SAS) described in an interview with The Sunday Telegraph the experiences that led him to end his impressive army career after just three months in Baghdad.

The 28-year-old, who was discharged last June, is believed to be the first SAS soldier to refuse to go into combat and to quit the army on moral grounds.

"I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong," Griffin told the weekly newspaper in his first interview since leaving the SAS.

"I knew, so others must have known, that this was not the way to conduct operations if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of the local population.

"And if you can't win the hearts and minds of the people, you can't win the war."

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060312/wl_mideast_afp/britainusiraqmilitaryunrest

[entanglement]

59. This is no ordinary grunt, but an elite special forces soldier

with an 8 year distinguished service career

[ClayZ]

60. Bravo! K and R

:kick: