Many Americans Support "Choice" but Think Abortion is Murder

[LiberalHeart]

For all the recent tumult over abortion, one thing has remained surprisingly stable: Americans have proved extremely consistent in their beliefs about the procedure -- and extremely conflicted in their views.

A solid majority long have felt that Roe v. Wade should be upheld. Yet most support at least some restrictions on when abortions can be performed. Most think having an abortion should be a personal choice. But they also think it is murder.

"Rock solid in its absolutely contradictory opinions" is how public opinion expert Karlyn Bowman describes the nation's mind-set.

Much more here:
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4620245

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. remember when americans were for the iraq war

but did not want any troops dead?

but i understand the contradiction in that a lot of people say they are for choice, but wouldnt want to get an abortion themselves

[Arkansas Granny]

22. You've defined the contradiction well. I support a woman's right

to choose, but abortion was never my choice. Had I been faced with the same circumstances as other women have been faced with, I might have made a different choice. It is not up to me to make that choice for another woman. That is why pro-choice does not have to mean pro-abortion.

[tenshi816]

25. I feel that very strongly as well.

I was still only 16 when I graduated from high school, and I was also four months pregnant at the time. I could've had an abortion but wanted my baby. It was the right choice - for me.

I've never regretted my decision for one second, but I would also never presume to make the decision for anyone else. No two pregnancy situations are identical. I made my choice, and other women should be allowed to make theirs.

[high density]

2. ugh and zogby just sent me a poll on abortion

Of all the issues going on today, changes in abortion laws should be very low on anybody's list IMHO.

[LiberalHeart]

5. What's "ugh"? (no text)

[high density]

8. Ugh...

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ugh

[LiberalHeart]

20. LOL .... I thought it was another poll. Duh. (EOM)

[drm604]

32. Don't feel bad. I thought the same thing.

"ugh and zogby just sent me a poll"

What were we supposed to think? I thought maybe it was the Union of Gay Hebrews or something. :rofl:

[Union Thug]

6. I got that too.. I found many of the questions

impossible to answer because the questions were framed in the anti-choice vernacular.

I swear, with the proposed sex toy ban and the attack on women's rights, this country is becoming the laughing stock of the civilized world. What a bunch of retrograde, brain-dead medievalists...

[high density]

10. Yeah, I agree

I thought it was pretty clear that this poll was funded by some sort of anti-choice/anti-privacy group.

[LiberalHeart]

18. Isn't it just an AP poll? (no text)

[54anickel]

16. Huh? Sex toy ban? Did I miss something?

[benny05]

21. Likewise

I was annoyed at the survey because the questions were too black and white and did not have consequential questions to help frame the issue to be more gray; grey situation is usually the case for any woman who is in the predictment of an unwanted or accidental pregnancy.

[genieroze]

39. sex toy ban?

[Whoa_Nelly]

15. Did the Zogby poll ask if you are a woman & have you ever had an abortion?

Just curious. Am on the Zogby poll list, and haven't received that particular poll. Sometimes Zogby asks some weird ass questions. And, if it were to ask if I have ever had an abortion, I think I would quit the poll right there, not only for the invasiveness of such a question, but also because am suspicious of posting things about myself, my life in polls, even when there is the option of answering "Refused".

Have quit a couple of the Zogby polls due to the personal nature of some questions, and have written to [e-mail] about some of the total bias inherent in some of the questions.

[Warpy]

17. Not if you are a woman

and the last time I checked, women are slightly more than half the population.

Without the right to sovreignty in our own bodies, we have nothing.

That is why it's important.

[Peace Patriot]

35. I disagree with you, high density! The assault on women's rights and

other efforts to control women, to control sexuality, and to curtail individual freedom, civil rights and equal protection of the law, are at the heart of the extreme rightwing junta that has seized control of our government and almost all means of communication.

It has EVER BEEN the strategy of fascist juntas to control women and sexuality first, and THEN dissenting men. Fascists need cannon fodder and slave labor. That is the practical side of their agenda. But their desire to control and restrict women goes much deeper than that. They want to control, curb, narrow and channel the very force of life itself, to achieve power and profit for themselves. The word "dominionist" is no accidental term in their lexicon. It derives from the "Adam and Eve" story (i.e., God giving Adam "dominion" over the earth). It means, in essence, that a cabal of old powerful men will decide who gets to procreate, and will control not just lineage but all conditions of abundance, wealth, marriage and inheritance law, and how and under what circumstances women are owned as household slaves and the makers of SONS (daughters being matters of wealth only--the transference of wealth in dowries, and consequent alliances of wealth among men). Uncontrolled sexuality among individuals is simply not permitted, because passionate desire and coupling is the very engine of profit. Harnessing that force--the life force--is the heart of this fascist agenda.

How to fight and disempower this particular fascist junta is certainly a matter for discussion and prioritization. But WHOSE rights they are assaulting should not be prioritized in the way that you suggest--that women's rights and assaults on abortion law should be "very low" on anybody's "list."

We should never make that mistake--prioritizing civil and human rights. (We often make it on the rights of Arabs and Muslims--for instance, that the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis is somehow less important than the deaths of two-thousand, three hundred U.S. soldiers, or that the illegal detention and torture of Iraqis or Afghanis is somehow less important to us because they are foreigners.)

It is my personal assessment--and I am not alone--that the source of all of our problems is the non-transparent election system that was arranged by the biggest Bushite crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney (the $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle by which rightwing Bushite electronic voting companies gained control of the tabulation of our votes with "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code and virtually no audit/recount controls, over the 2002-2004 period), and that our FIRST PRIORITY must be getting rid of these voting machines and restoring election TRANSPARENCY. Until we do, we have no power--no mechanism for exercising our sovereignty as a people--on any other issue.

The abortion issue is not black and white. For one thing, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it in the Bible, neither Old Testament nor New Testament. There is NO RELIGIOUS BASIS for determining when human consciousness is present in a fetus. And it is absolutely absurd to assert that a couple of cells reproducing is a human being. Women's bodies often flush those collections of cells out, naturally. Conception, pregnancy, birth and early nurturance are a continuum. There is no easy way to identify at what point a fetus or baby is a separate entity from its mother. And it is only with modern technology that pre-birth fetuses can survive at all. The Catholic Church, in the 18th century (in a big period of reactionism) arbitrarily decided that a "soul" is infused by God at conception. This Papal dictate was clearly the result of the Church identifying itself with fascist and reactionary political forces. The Church has no more idea what a soul is, or when it is present, than you or I do. I personally believe that whales, dolphins and elephants have souls, just like ours (by "soul" I mean sentience--awareness of self). Who is to contradict me? I can point to a lot more proof that these beings have "souls" than the Church (or Bushites) can point to, for a "soul" being present in a division of human reproductive cells. Whales mourn their dead. Can a human zygote mourn the dead? Can a human baby mourn the dead?

The purpose of the Church and the Bushites is NOT to protect life. I think that is perfectly obvious.* Their purpose is to control women and sexuality, and to control, narrow and direct the life force to enhance their own wealth and power.

It's fascinating to me--and a telling fact--that one of the two major Bushite corporations that now control our elections, ES&S, a spinoff of Diebold, was initially funded by Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the Chalcedon Foundation, an extreme rightwing 'christian' group that, among other things, touts the death penalty for homosexuals (and promotes similar, "witch-burner" notions regarding women's rights).

These are the sort of people 'counting' all our votes behind a veil of secrecy.

"Chalcedon" was also the name of a Church Council held in 451 A.D., at which the empire and religion were firmly cemented together, and an extremely narrow-minded form of 'christianity' was endorsed, thereafter to be enforced by the sword. All dissenters were excommunicated, all other varieties of 'christianity' (there were many) were disallowed and anathematized, along with Pagan and Jews, and the witch-hunts, the witch-burnings, the book-burnings, the pogroms, the inquisitions and all the horror of the Dark Ages began in earnest. The human "soul"--the human spirit, the human mind, with its passion for free inquiry--was thereafter imprisoned in a dark dungeon, literally for a thousand years, and unmercifully tortured.

These same assholes have a lot nerve claiming to be the guardians of the birth of human souls and the protectors of human life. Nothing could be further from the truth--regarding the Vatican and their rightwing Bush junta 'christian' brethren and its rightwing Jewish Neo-Con cabalists.

-----------------------------

*(Do we see either the Vatican or the Bushites pouring their wealth into the coffers of poor women, to enable them to feed, clothe and raise children? Although the Vatican talks a good line on social programs, it has supported and is allied with the most reactionary of governments, including the Bush junta. And, far from supporting the poor, it drains resources from the poor in many different ways--in order to support bishops and priests, and enhance the properties and wealth of the Church. Further, in the case of the Bush junta, the Church actively sought to influence the 2004 election BECAUSE the desire to control women and sexuality was far, far more important to the Vatican than the Bush junta's avid destruction of social programs and massive outright theft from the poor--and more important than unjust, immoral war. They preached it from the pulpits--abortion, abortion, abortion! They used it against Kerry. Utter and complete hypocrites. And it is THEY who are providing the Bushites with the false theology of soul infusion!)

[silverojo]

48. The Bible actually does disprove one anti-abortion argument

<<For one thing, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it in the Bible>>

From the book of Genesis:
"...and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature..."

Says right there, you're not a living creature till you breathe...which is kinda hard to do in the womb, when you're still just a fetus.

This Biblical argument is one we really need to throw at all the anti-abortion looneys...turn their Bible against them.

[Rose Siding]

3. Nothing about the poll in that piece justifies the perjorative "murder"

The AP is editorializing.

[LiberalHeart]

13. Ha. I went back to the link to see what you mean & it's changed.

The headline has been changed to take mention of the poll out of the headline, but "murder" is still in the body copy talks as it was before. I don't think the question of "murder" is part of the poll, but rather some lead-in remarks about the conflicted views Americans have long held, including seeing abortion as murder.

This has been an issue that I've thought about ever since the fires and bombing at abortion clinics started. I try to put myself into the mind of one of the folks who do such things, and I have to wonder what I would do if I thought abortion is murder. It seems like, if one truly believes that, there'd be a moral obligation to do whatever you can do to stop them from going forward.

I just edited the heading on this thread to reflect the changed headline.

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. well, it is murder

if you were to kick a woman in the stomach and end her pregnancy, certainly she would consider you a murderer of her unborn child.

On edit, I'd just like to add that I'm pro choice. I just don't like mincing words.

[Warpy]

14. It's self defense

of the most pure kind, defense against a threat to one's health, finances, social support system and LIFE.

Pregnancy and childbirth are inherently risky and have lifelong consequences of reduced earning capacity and career opportunities. They must be voluntary.

So take your cries of murder and apply them where they belong, to a "Christian" administration that kills people at home with neglect and abroad with guns and bombs.

[THUNDER HANDS]

23. i don't disagree with you

and I'm not going to begrudge any woman who chooses to end her pregnancy for whatever reason. Its her body, its her right. But I don't like imagining that what she's terminating isn't life. It may not be a human being in the fullest sense. But whatever you want to call "it" is living. That doesn't make any bit of difference but semantical. Murder, self defense. Call it what you want. Does it make much of a difference?

[Warpy]

28. Yeah, about ten to life

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. well

I don't think abortion is a crime, obviously, but I do think its the killing of some form of life. I don't think accepting that and supporting the right of someone to commit the act are two inconsistent things.

[IsItJustMe]

7. I don't think people really know what they believe on this issue except

fundies who are able to find black and white in almost anything. Polls can not and never will be able to capture the nuances of peoples feelings. I think you should always keep this in mind when reading polls.

[Demeter]

38. This Is No Time For Nuance!

Either a woman has autonomy, or she doesn't. She is the one to do the nuancing!

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

9. That describes me

I believe Abortion is murder, but I'm not sure. If I were to get a woman pregnant, I would do all I could to convince her to carry the child to term.

But since I think it is not entirely clear when life begins, it should be a personal choice..

[Mythsaje]

11. I'm not comfortable with abortion...

but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "murder."

I'm pro-choice, as far as that goes.

[MrPrax]

12. Worrisome...

The consistent and doggish 'Pro-Life' propaganda campaign has proven to be effective--they have nibbled around the hard-to-argue 'choice' position through sheer emotionalism, religious blackmail, political dissolution and piecemeal arguments, splitting hairs and compromising over incremental restrictions.

Listen Up! Vote Choice Down The Line...Your Body Will Thank You For It

[Mind_your_head]

19. What's so hard to understand ?

1) People know from experience/history that even when abortions are 'illegal' they still happen. And the chances for grisly consequences to the woman greatly increase. So, by making abortions illegal, we don't stop them at all ~ individuals/society just would have awful stuff happening to women.

2) Many people don't think they would choose abortion for themselves, or wives, or daughters. But, situations happen, which is always a whole different thing than just being 'theoretical'. Perhaps people just want the legal option open - just in case?
(think something like 'menopause baby at 50 that an amnio diagnoses with severe retardation, for a wild - but plausible - example).

3) I believe many people - fundies excluded - don't feel comfortable dictating morals to other people.

As Bill Clinton(?) said, 'abortions should be legal and rare'. Americans want the option. That doesn't mean the procedure should be done with 'reckless abandon' (i.e., as an alternative to effective contraception).

"Experts" like Karlyn Bowman would do well to go beyond the "state your position in one sentence" mentality ~ especially on this complex issue.

edit: spelling

[Meldread]

24. Well that poll pretty much describes how I feel...

...I don't like the idea of Abortion. In a perfect world, I'd like to think such a procedure isn't necessary. However, I am staunchly Pro-Choice. Even if I was AGAINST Abortion I'd still be Pro-Choice simply based on the fact I don't believe I have the right to rule the lives of others. It's a moral choice that each person has to make, individually, with the aid of a doctor.

Is Abortion Murder? Well, I think murder is too strong of a word. However, ideally if a woman is going to have an abortion, she'd have one very early on in her pregnancy. As a male, I might be bias - but I also think the father should at least get a chance to know the woman is pregnant. I mean, I'd like to have that type of talk over with someone before they made that type of decision about our child. I really don't like the idea that a child, born or unborn, is considered to be entirely the woman's as if it were property. It took two to make it, after all. I'm not sure if the father should be able to interfere with an abortion, but I do think the doctors should at least strongly encourage the female to notify him. (Considering only if the female was impregnated willingly and not raped.)

Realistically, a woman should rarely become pregnant unless she wanted to now-a-days. There are various kinds of sex: oral, anal, mutual masturbation, and other more inventive things. Contraception is also easy to get, condoms, birth control pills, the patch, and many others. There is also the Morning After Pill. There really is no excuse to become pregant if you are being responsible, and if you aren't being responsible you shouldn't be having sex in the first place as it only puts you and your partners life at risk for HIV or another STD.

Anyone who isn't Pro-Choice, though, is pretty much a fascist. It becomes "my way or the highway", I don't see anything wrong about personally or morally disagreeing with abortion, I only see something wrong with trying to impose a personal belief on others.

[Cerebral_Assassin]

26. Well. i'm pro-life.

I am decidedly pro-life.

I believe that abortion is the most disgusting practice that the mind of man has been able to contrive.

And it is my fervent hope that the practice will be ended in my life time.

NOTICE:
I said "ended" and not "Made illegal."

I find a lot of perfectly legal things morally reprehensible.

-war

-poverty

-hunger

-inadequate health care

-joblessness

-the widening gap between rich and poor

-Paris Hilton

-The fact that my son's pediatrician will only make a fraction of what Kevin Federline spends.

Overturning Roe v. Wade will not end the practice.
Politics in general will not end the practice.

[Faygo Kid]

27. I reluctantly think it's time to abandon Roe.

It will be the first time that a Constitutional right has been established, then withdrawn. Nonetheless, there is an overarching evil storm cloud coming after our (I stress, OUR) country, and it is the Bush Administration, and their goal is to destroy the Constitution. If Roe is overturned, the base of the Right will be distracted, and for the first time, debating each other. They will be distracted state-by-state. And of course, Cheney-Rove don't give a flying f* one way or another, but they will necessarily be forced to divert resources to this issue. That gives us time. And we need time.

[okasha]

36. I think not.

"That gives us time."

Not if you're a pregnant woman, it doesn't. Not if you're pregnant by a rapist. Not if you can't afford another child. Not if you'll die within weeks without an abortion.

Tossing the female half of the population over the side is not the way to strengthen the Democratic Party.

[nodehopper]

47. let me guess, you are a man?

[mvd]

30. Also pro-choice

As for it being murder, abortion doesn't have the malicious intent involved with the term. And spiritually, I think an aborted fetus just wasn't ready to be born at the time.

[yurbud]

31. pro-choices major achilles heel is not admitting its life at some point

Not at the handful of cells stage, but somewhere along the way.

They alienate some potential allies by appearing to fight for abortion right up until the umbilical is cut at birth.

[LiberalHeart]

34. Right, but....

...it's difficult to determine where the line is drawn between a handful of cells and a human life. I do know that when I buy a dozen eggs at the grocery store, I don't think I'm taking home a pound of chicken. If only everything could be that clear.

[yurbud]

44. even acknowledging that it crosses the line somewhere along the way

would at least be intellectually honest.

I agree with you, but the way pro-choice stuff is presented, they either step around this or ignore it, both of which look dishonest and/or callous. I don't think that's the purpose--they just have come up with a presentation that's preaching to the choir.


Most Americans agree with keeping abortion mostly accessible. The pro-choice movement needs a folksy equivalent of Garrison Keillor, instead of Molly Yard-types.

[Baconfoot]

33. So now it's contradictory to recognize thatother people disagree with you?

The question of whether an action should be legal and the question of whether that same action is right or wrong are distinct questions both for someone who believes in what people are calling around here an absolute ethics and for a relativist.

Other posters have rightly stressed the negative societal impact of keeping abortion illegal. Even someone who thinks it's wrong can recognize that greater wrongs result from attempting to keep people from committing this purported wrong.

So I want to stress something else.

The absolutist can recognize that, even if in fact there is one correct answer to the question of whether some particular action is right and this answer does not depend on e.g. the beliefs of the potential actor, they might not have all the data relevant to determining with answer to the question is the correct one. Such a position is not a relativist one. A relativists thinks "different strokes are (objectively) valid for different folks." But this person thinks, however unlikely I might be mistaken regarding what is the truth for everyone.

In particular, one thing religious people in particular do not know (and here I don't mean know as in "be convinced" or "have a feeling of certainty" but as in the thing is true and the people believe it for reasons which are infallible, reasons so good that they know that they know it's true) is whether or not their religion is the one true religion.

And in this country we have recognized that you cannot legislate based on a mere conjecture that a particular religion or religious proposition (e.g. that 3 months old fetuses have souls) is true. We recognize that in fact people other than ourselves are just as convinced of things contrary to what we believe and that in these matters the state should not intrude, no matter how convinced we are that we are correct.

The state's job is not to get us into heavan, it's to keep things running smoothly done here by e.g. building roads, providing health care, and preventing us from beating the sh^t out of each other.

As an atheist, I can say that I'm very glad that I have some institutional protection from the prejudices many people have against my beliefs. And I'm also glad that other people recognize that they ought not use the state to force me to conform my actions to their beliefs. However, certain they are that e.g. Christ is the risen lord, I can assure you I'm equally certain e.g. that he's not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I understand.

I feel this way myself. I could never choose abortion personally but I support a woman's right to make that choice.

Let me clarify that I have never been in a position where abortion was the best choice for me. I have never been raped, I have never been the victim of incest. And I have a wonderful supportive family so I know that had I been faced with an unintended and unwanted pregnancy (like before I got married) my family would have been there to help me. But I fully realize not all women are as lucky as I am. Therefore, I support choice.

[DemExpat]

40. I see abortion as destroying human life, but not murder of a person.

I support choice in very early stages while being anti-abortion.

DemEx

[Virginia Dare]

41. Polls about abortion don't mean a thing...

too volatile and personal an issue.

[Solly Mack]

42. I'm pro woman all the way. I don't have a problem with abortion

None. Whatsoever. I don't find it immoral.I am more than a wee bit (sardonically) amused when it's called murder. I passed grade school science so I know a human fetus is a human and not a fish or a puppy or a cat - so the "thinking" that a human fetus isn't a human plays no part in my being A-OK with abortion.

I recognize (and how could I not? - as I do have a functioning brain) that a fetus will one day become a person (if carried to birth and delivered) - and I still support abortion.

The - fetus/baby/whatever anyone wants to all it - is incidental to me. The woman isn't.

Don't give a rat's ass if it's "rare" or not. If women had full equality, and all women had access to education, information, and economic opportunity (all of which tend to reduce the number of pregnancies - as long as the control freaks aren't banning birth control as well that is) - and if sexists society didn't exist or there were no more sexists folks on earth - I would still support abortion. Cause it ain't about the fetus to me.

It's about the woman. Period.

0 kids or 20 kids - it's not in my place to dictate to anyone on whether or not they have kids. I ain't gonna force an abortion and I ain't gonna force a birth. It's not for me to decide and my life for damn sure isn't open to anyone else's "ideas" of how I should be or what I should do. I have no desire to control another person and I don't need the power trip of playing master.

Never in the entire history of people has life been perfect - bad things happen. Life is messy. You can't delude yourself into thinking that one day there will be a perfect world where abortion will no longer be necessary. It will always be necessary as long as women can get pregnant. Rape. Birth control fails. People lose jobs. Health/life reasons. And the simple fact that women find themselves pregnant when they're not ready and they just don't want a child.

Unless you can come up with a world where rape NEVER happens, people don't lose jobs, and health/life reasons NEVER ever come up, and where all women are just chomping at the bit to have a baby and birth control never fails - then abortion is here to stay.

[HockeyMom]

43. Real Life and Religious Views in Conflict

They may not like the idea of abortion, murder to the religious, BUT when push comes to shove, the majoirty still wants that option to choose it if circumstances warrent it in their personal lives. As in, their 13 year old was raped and is pregant, the wife is carrying a severely deformed fetus, they are 40 years old with 4 kids already and their jobs have gone to India, etc. etc.

As in politics, I guess all abortions can also be considered "local".

[AnnieBW]

45. I'm 100% Pro-Choice

Do I believe that abortion is murder? First trimester abortions - no. You might be able to persuade me if it's second or third trimester. That being said, I wholeheartedly believe that the decision to have an abortion should be between a woman and her doctor. You can't judge another person until you walk in their shoes. You never know the circumstances under which a woman chooses an abortion. Is her husband/lover abusing her? Did she drink/consume drugs enough to screw up the kid's development? Is there some kind of problem with the fetus? Can she afford to raise this baby? Is she underage with her whole life ahead of her? Was she raped? It's not for us to judge.

I've had friends who had abortions, and a friend who kept her baby even though the father was a total dick. Neither regret their decisions. Yeah, the one that had the abortions was messed up for a while, but I count that as being more upset about the breakup of her relationship rather than the abortion itself.

[bleedingheart]

46. I am for staying out of other people's business

and I think that the pro-life people who advocate ending legal abortion should be ready to ante up in taxes to pay for all those unwanted children.

[Deja Q]

49. And?

Abortion IS murder.

But it's not up for anybody except the woman and her male lover who impregnated her by her choice; preferably husband. And I can only hope they're smart enough beforehand to use condoms or whatever else necessary beforehand; abortion - like any surgery - is invasive and can lead to unintended ramifications for the person having the surgery.