Gang members charged in rape allegedly watched by mother of one

[Postmanx]

SF Gate

Seven gang members and three female associates were charged Monday with raping a woman as the mother of one suspect allegedly watched and encouraged the assault, authorities said.

The 23-year-old victim was targeted because her boyfriend had angered members of the Anaheim gang, authorities said.

She was lured into a hotel room by a female gang associate at a Feb. 23 party then sexually assaulted over a seven-hour period, Anaheim police Chief John Welter said.

The maximum penalties the defendants face if convicted range from 52 years to life to 184 years to life.

[FyurFly]

1. Penalty should be death n/t

[Kailassa]

2. Not until after they'd each been raped for seven hours.

And as for the mother ... it's because of people like her that people like me still want to believe in hell.

[saigon68]

5. Especially if they are BROWN OR BLACK MEN

</SARCASM>

[Postmanx]

6. why are you injecting race into this?

[saigon68]

8. Ya I know

White guys don't do this shit

[Mithras61]

9. ABout race...

This is Connie Retana, the mother who watched...

Edited to add this from the original article:

"Authorities identified the 38-year-old "gang mother" as Connie Herrera Retana and her son as 18-year-old Martin Carlos Delgado. Police said the victim was lured into the room and beaten by 23-year-old Jolean Disbrow.

<snip>

Along with Retana, Delgado and Disbrow, those arrested were identified as Jesse Bess, 23; Randy Calderon, 18; Keizzy Fierro, 22; Adrian Flores, 18; Raymond Jaramillo, 19; Luis Nava, 19; and Gilbert Ortiz, 15. One suspect, identified as 19-year-old Oscar Jose "Sporty" Barajas, remained at large."


I'm not saying race had anything to do with it. Just clarifying WHO has been alleged to be responsible...

[saigon68]

10. Photo

Is that supposed to mean something?


Where are the rest of the photo's


Along with Retana, Delgado and Disbrow, those arrested were identified as Jesse Bess, 23; Randy Calderon, 18; Keizzy Fierro, 22; Adrian Flores, 18; Raymond Jaramillo, 19; Luis Nava, 19; and Gilbert Ortiz, 15. One suspect, identified as 19-year-old Oscar Jose "Sporty" Barajas, remained at large.

Every time there is an outrageous crime a rustic element of fools here, screams for the "DEATH PENALTY" "OLD SPARKY" and "THE NEEDLE" to be applied to some Black or Brown man or men

[bettyellen]

12. what is your point?

we're hating the sin here, and the sickness of that mother.
wtf are you trying to say?

[saigon68]

15. It's the Death Penalty-- part

I have trouble with

Since you angrily asked I will sarcastically reply

What part of that don't you understand?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FyurFly]

33. No i'm not a troll! are you? n/t

[Kailassa]

37. FyurFly, that was certainly not directed at you.

Your post might be short, but I happen to agree with it.

But tell me, was I right in my assumption that you had no thought of the rapists being Colored when you posted that, and that you were simply reacting to the horrible crime?

[FyurFly]

44. Color is of no diffrence to me...

IMHO rape is worse than murder. at least when your murdered your dead, gone, wormfood. Woman have to live with what was done to them for ever, and that makes me very very angry.

[Bridget Burke]

46. Rape is a hideous crime....

But the survivor is better off alive. She needs many kinds of therapy, but I would not consider her "ruined"--as you do.

[FyurFly]

47. I didn't mean ruined

But this young woman will likely be emotionally scarred for the rest of her life. I feel very sorry for her.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FyurFly]

74. I somewhat disagree

I DO believe that socioeconomic factors play a part in some crime (robbery, drug dealing etc), but I believe that sex crimes and the people that commit them are flawed and cannot be treated. long term imprisonment is the only solution. I know that makes me sound like a fascist but time and time again these sex offenders/pedophiles are incarcerated, released then repeat the same crime over and over again.

[FyurFly]

75. In addition

We all know the facts that ALL COLORS OF PEOPLE COMMIT Rape and other sex crimes. In fact I can't ever remember hearing about any children in black churches being molested. That seems to be sick demented white priests. (not an attack on white folk here either.)

[bloom]

77. That's not what I was just reading...

"The fact is that the odds are extremely small that any middle or upper class white man in this country will ever be imprisoned for rape. Racism and a racist judicial system make the story entirely different for African-American men: in the U.S. where the vast majority of the reported perpetrators of rape are white, the vast majority of the men in prison for rape are black!"

http://www.teachingsexualethics.org/writing/conversations.htm

[saigon68]

41. adios

vaya con dios

[superconnected]

50. It's called reverse racism

This person wants us to hate black/brown people, so he can hate us for hating him.

Since nobody her indicates they do, he's inventing it, anyway.

I never considered the color, and I thought DP.

[bettyellen]

53. i see that. i'm against the DP, but my initial reaction was to stomp that

mother pretty bad. it's disgusting that she could allow this. it's extra bad to hear a woman allowing this to happen.
they need to go away for a long time. all of them.

[Mithras61]

19. The photo is OBVIOUSLY a hispanic woman...

and the names listed are predominantly hispanic as well.


But all that aside, YOU are the one who brought up race, and I thought you might like to be certain in what YOU were spouting off about. All I did was put up the photo linked in the story.

The violence of this crime seems to fall well within what I think of as attempted murder, and far beyond what I normally think of as rape or gang rape (which are extraordinarily violent to begin with). A long sentence certainly seems called for, but as usual, I will argue that a life sentence without the possibility of parole is more appropriate.

The death penalty is state sanctioned murder. It is not an effective deterrent, and in fact tends to cause escalation of this type of crime, since they won't have anything more to loose (that is, if rape gets you the death penalty, and rape+murder gets you the death penalty, how many rape victims will survive?).

[WinkyDink]

62. Sometimes the knee-jerk response is "Prejudice!"

[superconnected]

49. I guess some people see racism in everything.

[unda cova brutha]

55. you didn't have to go there.

this was a terrible crime. Making speculative comments about race doesn't help.

[Texacrat]

65. WTF?

N/T

[bettyellen]

11. fuck this, we are talking about hating rapists here.....

if you want to imagine something racist in that, it's pretty fucking sad.
if they did this, they ought to get the max, no matter their color, or that of their victims.

[saigon68]

13. let me guess---you like "THE DEATH PENALTY"

just a guess on my part.

[bettyellen]

36. i don't equate the death penalty with racism,

to be quite honest, i equate it with testosterone, with fleeting anger. since it ain't even close to the punishment for rape, i don't take it all that serious.
it's an overreaction to a horrible story, it's facinating to me how often men call for the death penalty for rapes when it's so very far from the reality of how sex crimes are handled in this country.
and you're dead wrong, i am actually against the death penalty, for several reasons, including that it is both racist and punishes the impoverished inequitably.

[progressivebydesign]

58. Isn't murder just an unsactioned Death Penalty? just curious n/t

[Mike Daniels]

17. I guessing that the poster is artlessly implying......

That if the perps were white and this was some frat-related gang bang that people wouldn't be screaming for the death penalty or desiring that the perps get passed around the cell block like a 2 cent whore.

Personally, anyone (regardless of race) who commits an act such as the one described in the article shouldn't be allowed to step outside of the confines of their cell ever again.

[Kailassa]

21. As far as we know the perps were white.

And the assumption that they are white has not lessened anyone's ire.

It never occured to me they might not be until Saigon started posting as if he thinks all rapists are dark-skinned.

[saigon68]

26. You are putting words in my mouth

WTF do you get that

[FyurFly]

34. color is not an issue

People of all colors that rape should be locked away for life or put to death, wichever is less costly to the taxpayers.

[Judi Lynn]

27. It wasn't so long ago we read articles about white kids who beat

homeless people to death in San Diego, with NO screeches for the death penalty for them, none at all.....

In fact, it's easy to remember a movie by Jodie Foster, for which I found a synopsis:

A hard-living, fiercely independent woman is gang-raped in the back of a neighbourhood bar. But that is only the beginning of her ordeal. Now she finds herself battling the legal system not once but twice as she and her attorney go after both the attackers and the onlookers whose cheering encouraged the evil assault.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Foster won her first Oscar for her role in The Accused (1988), based on an actual incident. While out for a night of fun at a poolroom, before her character knows what's happening she finds that the men she's been flirting with have pinned her down for a gang rape. The story centres on the efforts of a district attorney (Kelly McGillis) to press her case, in spite of a wall of silence by the participants--and then to take the unusual step of going after the witnesses as accomplices. Foster is outstanding as a tough, blue-collar woman who persists in what seems like an unwinnable case, despite the prospect of character assassination for standing up for herself.
(snip/...)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004CI0L/202-5181973-5424667

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In other cases, rape victems have been dragged through the mud, trying to defend themselves after being assaulted by white cretins.

A lot DOES "color" some peoples' perceptions, bringing out more vitriol than if different circumstances were in play.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FyurFly]

32. Agreed

People that commit sex crimes (rape or incest) should be locked away for ever. These people (rapist) can not be rehabillitated

[converted_democrat]

24. Pathetic...

:puke:

[stop the bleeding]

3. this planet would be better off without some people- NO IFS, ANDS, OR

BUTS.

Some people should be shipped to the depths of space.

If I was the boyfriend I don't know what I would do at this point

[ThomCat]

4. That poor woman.

I can't imagine what she's going through right now. And what she'll be going through for the rest of her life.

How can people do something like this to someone?

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I sure as hell hope they all become the cell block girlfriends.

[Missy M]

7. Each one should get 184 years to life.

How horrible this is. How do such monsters come about. I guess they have mothers like the one who watched.

[Atman]

14. I agree. It always pains me to see "democrats" go for the blood lust

These people are monsters, no doubt. But what's with the swift call to "kill 'em all!"?

You just want to be monsters, too?

Remember, the original crime was a "retaliation" in itself. So now you want to retaliate for the retaliation by bumping the violence up a notch? So if the first people were monsters, what does that make the people who would kill somebody who is already under lock and key? What's the sport in that?

If you gathered twelve of your friends in your living room and listened to these creeps' story, and then decided to go kill them, you'd be guilty of pre-meditated murder. Sanctioning the killing by having the twelve people sit in a mahogany box in a fancy courtroom doesn't make the killing any less of a killing.

[Kailassa]

18. But it does stop them doing it again.

And saves society the cost of imprisoning perverts.

[Mithras61]

22. The cost of imprisoning perverts is less...

than the cost of executing them would be. A life sentence without parole also stops them from doing it again. Perhaps THEY won't do it again, but what you do is escalate the level of violence in other cases by making rape an executable offence. If they don't have more to loose by killing than by raping, they'll simply rape and then kill their victims.

Further, murder is murder, even if it is state sanctioned. If it's wrong for a one (ore even a group of 12) to murder, then how is it any different for a jury to murder them for what they did? Either killing people is wrong or it isn't.

[LostinVA]

25. Correct -- on all counts!

[Kailassa]

28. The last time I heard "murder is murder"

was when I had to push through a smugly picketing crowd to get into an abortion clinic.
To those people, morality is clearly divided into black and white.

And when was the last time a first-time rapist was actually lacked away for life?

[Mithras61]

30. So work to change the law...

As has been posted elsewhere, a rape convictino is rarely their first offense and they almost invariably rape again. Life without parole seems reasonable if you keep this in mind. It will permanently remove them from society.

Revenge is not a legitimate motive here. Protecting society from this type of animal and rehabilitating are the only legitimate goals of imprisonment. Killing people is more than is required in the first case, and doesn't do the second.


Edited to add:

And for what it's worth, abortion isn't murder anymore than rape is sex. Abortion is not taking a life because a fetus isn't alive anymore than the wart on the back of your hand is alive. A BABY is alive, and a fetus becomes a baby when it becomes viable outside the uterus. Killing babies is murder. Killing fetuses isn't murder.

If you don't like the fact that I equate the state commiting murder with the individuals that do the same, present me with a reasonable argument to the contrary.

[saigon68]

29. I agree

And my apology for the above sarcasm toward you.

[Atman]

35. It costs more to kill them...at 184 years, they aren't getting out anyway

Who are they going to hurt behind bars? If you're really into revenge, it always seems to me like locking someone in an 8x8 box for 184 years would be a lost nastier than just turning out their lights!!

(edited for typos, for a change!)

[951-Riverside]

45. It will cost about $100 to shoot them and toss them into the ground

but In the case of rape no I don't believe the suspects should be killed because then anyone can claim rape after the act and it would really suck for the person or persons on the recieving end of such claims, I do believe this should be investigated carefully personally I find it a little odd that she would meet them at a hotel room to party, everyone in that "world" knows full well that partying at a motel usually means sex and drugs are going to be involved also it equally strange they would just let her go knowing full well they should would go to the police.

[Mithras61]

48. The cost of a bullet is low...

It's the other costs that are quite high. Check out the Death Penalty Info Center (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/) and look up some of the costs (especially hre: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7).


Aside from that, why is it okay for a state (or more closely, a jury of 12) to kill people but not okay for an individual to kill people? Life without parole is not only cheaper, it protects society and ensures that it won't happen again. The only other thing the death penalty gains you is revenge, but is that actually a legitimate reason for having the death penalty?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohiosmith]

40. I must have missed the memo that allows you to decide who is and is not

a Democrat.

"Rustics"!:rofl:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohiosmith]

43. !

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[LostinVA]

23. I disagree with the DP, but I do believe rape should be life

w/out parole. Yes, I did say that. Life without parole. Because, this is not a crime that someone usually just starts doing, nor do they do it once. It's a crime of violence and power, and robs the victims of so much that has NOTHING to do with :"sex."

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. I don't know about that.

I think by the time they are 75 or 80 it should be safe enough to let them out.

Why should the taxpayers have to pay for old age infirmaties AND incarceration?

[MissB]

64. In the case of sexual predators, not really.

We have a case here of an 83 year old woman who has been charged with raping a young boy.

[Texacrat]

66. because prison is PUNISHMENT

n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. So 65 years in prison is punishment, but 63 years is not?

The purpose of prison is 3-fold. Punishment, yes, that is one part. But equal to that is rehabilitation, and the third part is protection of society. I will grant you that many, maybe most sexual predators cannot be rehabilitated. That leaves punishment and protection of society. If the felon is of an age when he is not longer a threat, and he has served nearly his entire life in prison, what is the rationale for keeping him there for his last few miserable years? He has been punished. He's not a threat. Why should we pay $30,000/year to keep him in prison, when we could show him to the street and let the welfare system support him at half the cost?

A little rationality here, please.

[LostinVA]

73. As I said to another poster, talk to a sex crimes cop or a rapie counselor

Think a rapist that old can't rape? Of course they can, unless they're paralyzed. Think you have to use a penis to rape someone? No. Not legally, and not in actuality. Let the fuckers rot and die in prison. Many rapes aren't "committed" by someone's sex organ. You're thinking that rape is just a violent act of sex.... no way is that what it is.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

51. "forced to have sex" ?? she's not "having sex" if she's being raped.....

that's pretty fucking offensive. and i'm wondering if not understanding that is part of the reason you dismiss that it can be- and usually is- a a horriying crime, and the very definition of violation.
i completely understand your arguement about the patriarchal reactions, and the shame element but.... you are totally missing how it is a crime apart from others. historically it was used to impregnate women and guess what, it still can. and not all women would abort. the fear as well as the reality of that would be there for most women between the ages of 13 and 50. what is the equivalent of doing this to a man, sodomy? it just doesn't have the same range of possible consequences, does it? sometimes these things seem sexist, because our biology is sexist.
if you ask me, men have very conflicted feelings about rape- depending on the perpetrator, force used, who the victim is it varies widely.
you can't imagine your little sister asking for it, but that bitch who let your friend buy dinner is a different story. the ethics here are often seen as quite situational, and like the italian courts, women who have slept around or are not brutalized violently are seen as lesser victims.

[superconnected]

52. Feminist in the 70's and 80's

Kept pointing out that rape is about violence, not about sex. It's about doing violence to women.

At that time men were thinking, "it's sex, so what." Well, it's not just "sex". Its a violent attack. It's a crime of violence.

I should add, the "it's sex" attitude let the attacker off if the woman could be shown promiscious. These were the neanderthals that said a woman can't actually be raped - she chould contract her muscles. These were also Republican Neanderthals.

[bettyellen]

56. i understand patcox trying to make a point about how men can

over react to this crime, in a sense- men do use women as a way to hurt other men (as they did in this case) that's been historically true of rape and men get particularly angry about it happening to wives and sisters.
but just as common, i see guys under react- because the woman doesn't belong to one of them, or god help her, anyone... (she's a skank!!) .... or the perp is a friend or the crime wasn't violent enough.
there are patriarchal elements to this issue women can't escape- the justice system is by and of men, problem is they judge the victim as much as the perp every single time.
but to call it forced sex is just ignorant and offensive, IMO.

[politicat]

54. Because rape is primarily a psychological crime.

It is a product of our culture. If our culture did not consider that women should be secure in their persons and that sexual violence against them are abhorrent and aberrant, then we maybe could consider rape as just another form of assault and battery.

Rape becomes singularly damaging to that security of self because it damages the victim's ability to have normal and safe social and intimate relationships in a way that a random mugging or beating does not. Sure, this is cultural, but this is the culture we have, and changing it will take generations. It's not so much an expectation of a feeling of violation, horror or shame as an actual violation of personal security, a disintegration of trust and faith in human nature, and a diminishment of the victim by the attacker from person to thing. People who have been raped are made to feel as if they are not human and that is the major component of the crime.

When you compare rape to a physically brutal mugging, they're totally different crimes. A mugging does not leave the victim with the possibility of STD or pregnancy.

A victim of a mugging is not usually subjected to questions about how much s/he had had to drink, what s/he was wearing, or why s/he was in that location at that time. A victim of mugging is rarely accused of "wanting it to happen." A victim of a mugging is almost never accused of complicity in the mugging, and never has to watch videotapes of the mugging as a part of the prosecution of the case.

Muggings are not used specifically as genocidal tools in warfare.

Muggings are not used to break down a victim's defenses to coerce other actions out of them, and and are not considered a prelude to murder.

Most men who are murdered are not raped beforehand. Most women who are murdered are.

Very few people are drugged into a mugging, lured into a mugging or forced into a mugging by going to the wrong party or dating the wrong person.

The reason the psychological harm needs to be considered in cases of rape is because it is primarily a psychological crime. It is torture, pure and simple, designed to dehumanize the victim, committed to damage the victim in very specific ways and committed with the intention of punishing the victim for being who s/he is. It is committed to damage zer psyche and to make zer think s/he is worthless.

You are unlikely to ever have to deal with rape directly. Men just aren't raped as often or as brutally. You can't know what it is like to live in this culture after a rape. You'll never have to. Count yourself lucky and don't presume to tell us how we should feel about our bodies.

And while it would be nice if our culture would all of a sudden become a paradise where

[patcox2]

63. Your first two paragraphs are exactly what I was getting at.

Although I did not communicate it well. The perception by third parties, such as us all here, that rape is the worst of all crimes, and the perception of the victim, that she or he has been violated, shamed, traumatized, both are caused by our cultural attitudes towards sex. Its ridiculous to say it has nothing to do with sex.

And the other side of the coin is that perverts would not derive enjoyment and satisfaction from raping if it were not for these same sexual attitudes.

In other words, if the victim, and if we, did not have this lingering paternalistic victorian view that a woman who has been raped has been violated, humiliated, and ruined, then the rapist would lose all the sadistic pleasure he gets from the notion that he is violating, humiliating, and ruining her.

Isn't it ironic. Our extreme shock and horror over this crime is exactly what drives the perpetrators to commit it.

[politicat]

69. You're still not getting the point.

You (collectively) don't get to tell me (collectively) how I (collectively) should feel when one of you (collectively) decides to dehumanize me (collectively). To continue the metaphor, the mugger doesn't get to tell the muggee how the muggee should deal with the crime. Horror and disgust over the dehumanization of oneself and one's peers is not limited to women and our experiences of rape. Such righteous anger and disgust with inhumanity goes further and applies to all forms of torture.

I personally may be able to deal with rape as an instance of violence that does not touch my core self and is only an expression of my attacker's sociopathic attempt to make me less of a person, but it may still change how I view all others who could put me in a similar situation, how I handle my personal safety, even what decisions I make about my social life because having been attacked once, I don't want to go through it again. While my self and psyche may be unscathed, my physical space, social reactions and behavior are not going to be equally unscathed.

But being horrified at someone's wishes to dehumanize another person is not paternalistic and Victorian. Torture is always horrific, be it committed to force a woman to knuckle under, to damage the psyche of prisoners of war, or to control altar boys.

As for your opinion that it is the cultural mores that create the opportunity for rape, I don't think cultural studies of matriarchal and matrilineal communities bear out your thesis. Rape appears to be a universal, probably related to instinctual patterns of both dominance and reproduction. Sexual predation is seen in all cultures. (Lee Ellis, Theories of Rape, 1989). Ours is an anti-feminist culture, but domination of women is not the sole cause of rape. Some quarter of rapes are committed by men who can't communicate their desires for an effective heterosexual relationship, and instead try rape as an alternative. Those, at the very least, are not violent as such, but are rooted in psychological dysfunction and biological roots.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[bettyellen]

70. you ignore the many cases where men feel little shock or horror

regarding rape....in order to make some faux utopian point about ridding our society of this crime. you ignore the fact that violation and trauma happens to torture victims whether society demands it or not. only shame comes from the paternalistic attitude.
too bad your cookie cutter approach to the reasons for and reactions to rape don't bear out at all in real life.
in other words, where'd you read this tripe? someone sold you a bill of goods.

[LostinVA]

71. It is only partly a societal thing, and NOTHING, to me, to do with

loss of purity. I didn't say it was a shame thing. It is a control thing, a subjugation thing. Seriously? You really can't understand this. Sure men can be raped, but it is rare for adult men to be raped outside of an all-male institution (ie in society), and it is honestly not the same thing. You want to know what's so bad about it? Talk to a rape counselor. I'm not airing friends' private sufferings and trauma on a message board,e specially to a poster whom I suspect is not entirely sympathetic to this.

Rape, like pedophilia, has an extremely low rehab rate. They are criminals who do violent crimes again and again. Unlike many muggers, etc. I also think habitual domestic abusers should be locked up pretty much forever. ANY VIOLENT SOCIOPATH should be: rapists, pedophiles, etc. So to answer your question: yeah.

It has nothing to do with "Victorian prudishness." As I said, talk to a rape counselor. Or a sex crimes cop. They'll straighten you out on this.

My discussion with you on this is ended now. Other posters can debate if they want. I have seen the harm this does to someone, and I refuse to use someone's rape as your intellectual foil.

[bloom]

78. "I think this whole visceral response to rape is nothing but unconscious..

sexism"


Well - I think you and people who think nothing of other's "visceral response to rape" are probably rapists.

[Mizmoon]

57. Now if she was a virgin and horribly raped and

sodomized, that kooky senator might even let her get an abortion if she was impregnated during her horrific ordeal.

Since we're playing judge here I'd say the rapists deserve 30-years-to-life. Let's see mom cheer sonny boy along in court when he's convicted.

[progressivebydesign]

59. you forgot the "religious" part from that dufus sentaror. n/t

[951-Riverside]

60. I think (Mother/Son) Incest may be a factor here too

I don't see how many normal thinking mother could sit there and watch her son do this while encouraging him.

[superconnected]

61. I think the mom should be imprisoned to.

She's clearly on the team partaking in the rape, shes at the scene, shes rooting.

[lukasahero]

68. I would put that in the "water is wet" category

No shit she should also be imprisoned.

Is there a reason though the words you chose equate this crime with a sporting event? (Rooting, team...)

[Moderator]

79. Lock

This thread has gotten to be flame-y. Posters are not discussing the news topic but are getting off topic.
Additionally, there are too may personal attacks.