Judge orders Gmail disclosure

[NYC Liberal]

http://news.com.com/Police+blotter+Judge+orders+Gmail+disclosure/2100-1047_3-6050295.html?tag=nefd.top

In a lawsuit brought by the Federal Trade Commission, a subpoena is sent to Google for the complete contents of a Gmail account, including deleted e-mail messages. This is unrelated to the Department of Justice's own subpoena to Google for search terms and excerpts from its search database.

(...)

The subpoena asks for not only current e-mail but also deleted e-mail: "All documents concerning all Gmail accounts of Baker...for the period from Jan. 1, 2003, to present, including but not limited to all e-mails and messages stored in all mailboxes, folders, in-boxes, sent items and deleted items, and all links to related Web pages contained in such e-mail messages."

Google's privacy policy says deleted e-mail messages "may remain in our offline backup systems" in perpetuity. It does not guarantee that backups are ever deleted. Baker estimated he may have tens of thousands of e-mail messages in his Gmail account.

In a Jan. 31 ruling, Laporte rejected Baker's request. She said his attorney could withhold "truly protected" information but must "err on the side" of disclosure.

(Emphasis mine)

[Roland99]

1. This is a specific case re: a specific individual and ordered by a court.

I don't see a problem with this unless I'm reading that article incorrectly.

[napi21]

3. I don't see a problem with it either. Did you see the amt. they're seekin

$300 MILLION! And the slime is accused of running a credit counceling service, taking $$ from clients and NOT paying the clients bills with it!

They think the $$ was invested with a contractor in Beliz!

This scum deserves to rot!

[Minnesota Libra]

5. I do see a problem, each case gets easier to do this to all nt

[LifeDuringWartime]

7. there is a problem

google doesn't delete the emails!

[Roland99]

9. That's typical of any computer software for mail programs.

Look at Exchange Server or Notes.

Heck, look at a Windows Desktop (even if a file is deleted with Shift-Delete, it still resides on the harddrive until the sectors comprising that file are overwritten with other data.)

[Mithras61]

14. Well, if the software uses a database...

the "file" is often times a database entry, and if the record is deleted it becomes available for over-writing. Basically (unless your server is set up to preserve all mail), the next inbound message that needs a record can over-write the deleted message. The more active the mail server (with inbound & outbound and deleted messages), the more likely a deleted email will be unavailable to recover without the message having been preserved through a duplication function (like what is used for most HIPAA & accounting functions).

[Roland99]

18. Or it could just be an is_deleted column.

[Mithras61]

13. Well, you may think it's a problem, but...

their user agreement tells you they will do it. The only "solution" I can think of is don't use gmail.

[Mithras61]

2. The "in perpetuity" thing is one of the reasons...

that many people in IT suggested that people NOT use gmail.

It doesn't look to me like Google has done anything outside of the usage agreement on this one, and if Baker was using gmail to try and avoid getting his emails subpoenaed (which appears to be the case), then here's hoping they find what they're looking for.

And just to reiterate, his emails which would invoke the attorney-client privilege ARE exempted from this ruling, so basically the DoJ gets all his gmail since 1-1-2003 EXCEPT his emails to/from his attorneys.

With all the fighting that was done on this, it sounds to me like he's got some infomration in that email box that will point to where AmeriDebt and founder Andris Pukke's finances are hidden (which is what this is really all about anyway). Pukke doesn't want to pay for defrauding a bunch of Ameridebt clients and doesn't want to pay the IRS some $300M he owes them, and has been hiding his money.

[AngryAmish]

8. That's a feature, not a bug

In my business I can't lose anything. I never send anything in an e-mail that I would not be able to defend in court. GMail has already saved me a few times.

[Mithras61]

11. Well, any properly configured business class mail server...

can do the same thing. Also, most client-side email components can do the same (Eudora, Outlook Express, etc.) by simply selecting a check box in their configuration to save a copy of all outbound email. Most folks don't expect web-based email servers to do that.

[hang a left]

4. What I don't understand is why Baker is being forced to turn over

his emails. Is he a defendent in the case? AmeriDebt and founder Andris Pukke, are the ones that they are prosecuting, at least according to this article.

Let's say a business partner of mine is being tried for fraud in his operation of a different business than the one we own together. How could they subpoena all of my private emails? Why don't they find what they need in my partner's?

Having said that, it was a pretty weak defense they mounted on behalf of Baker.

[MrPrax]

6. Once upon a time...

delete meant delete...now apparantly it is a button that directly authorizes data redistribution as per agreement.

How stupid for people to think that the personal data they no longer want is still wanted by someone...

[truthisfreedom]

10. look, everyone, google is up-front about this. if it's a concern, DON'T

use gmail for anything you might end up in a court fight about.

it's like using a cell phone with a built-in recorder that can't be turned off.

[GodlessBiker]

12. Do people have a reasonable expectation that what they delete is deleted?

I think such an expectation is reasonable and that messages a person deletes should be considered null and void and without existence.

[Mithras61]

15. Perhaps people should revise their expectations...

or maybe just read the user agreements they sign off on. Google tells you up front that the deleted mail will be there in perpetuity, even if you delete it. The same sort of thing happens with people in accounting departments (yes, I've set up several servers that copy EVERY email to or from anyone in accounting), and can be done with pretty much any business class email server.

Your email is nowhere near as private as you think. It is NOT like a letter dropped at the Post Office. It is open, unencrypted, plain text (or maybe RTF or HTML, which are really just fancy plain text) and readable by anyone who happens to have access to the wire it's traversing.

[CornField]

16. People shouldn't

Mail servers are typically configured to hold onto all messages sent through them. Just because you've deleted the mail from your local machine, does not necessarily mean it's been deleted from the server, from the servers on the hops to get to you or from the original server which sent it on.

If you want privacy, best not email.

[northzax]

17. basically, assume that everything you ever type

is being recorded and will be saved somewhere forever. I love the fact that people think they actually erase stuff when they 'delete' it.