Iraqis Accuse U.S. Marines of 'Massacre'

[Fluffdaddy]

This story may have legs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060320/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fatal_raid


BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shortly after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine in a western Iraqi town, American troops went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old-girl, residents say.
The military is investigating possible misconduct by the Marines and confirms there is a video, which Time Magazine says shows the aftermath of the Marines' assault.

Residents contacted by The Associated Press described what happened after the Nov. 19 roadside bomb in the town of Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad, as "a massacre."

Khaled Ahmed Rsayef, whose brother and six other members of his family were killed in the incident, said the roadside bomb exploded at about 7:15 a.m. in the al-Subhani neighborhood. A U.S. Humvee was badly damaged.

The military acknowledged Monday it was investigating the incident after it was approached by Time with accounts from residents, officials and hospital authorities in Haditha as well as a videotape purportedly showing the aftermath of the incident.

Military officials declined further comment.

A U.S. military statement shortly after the November attack described what happened as an ambush on a joint U.S.-Iraqi patrol, with a roadside bombing and subsequent firefight killing 15 civilians, eight insurgents and a U.S. Marine. The statement said the 15 civilians were killed by the blast, a claim the residents strongly denied.

Residents said there only was a roadside bombing, and all the shooting was done by American troops.

Time, in a story in this week's edition, reported that a U.S. colonel went to Haditha for a weeklong probe to interview Marines, survivors and doctors at the morgue. The magazine cited unidentified military officials close to the investigation.

The probe, Time reported, concluded that the civilians were killed by Marines and not a roadside bomb, and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines.

The probe found, however, that the deaths were the result of "collateral damage," investigators said.

[fooj]

1. This is so sad.

:cry:

[cantstandbush]

49. How do these men sleep at night? This is not combat. this is murder.

[fooj]

52. Yes, it is.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[dionysus]

56. this is like what happened in vietnam

boobytrap goes off, kills some guys. the soldiers then go nuts and smoke the first people they see. fucking horrible :(

[madmark]

89. thats what i thought

[madmark]

90. thats what i thought

[WhiteTara]

83. I think this is why the suicide rate is so high

with the returning vets from the "war". When they have time to reflect, they can't live with the terrible deeds they have perpetrated in our names.

[pfitz59]

98. Check out these stats for WA state..........

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0612/iraq-numbers.php

"25: Estimated number of service members who committed suicide in Iraq.

35: Percentage of Iraq veterans accessing mental health services after returning home.

11: Homicides and suicides in Western Washington since 2003 involving active servicemen or veterans of Iraq.

6: Wives slain, along with one girlfriend and a child."

Going get much worse.....

[WhiteTara]

99. how many fine Washingtonians

went to Iraq? I think that number needs to be in the equation for the full impact.

[benburch]

2. Sadly, I believe this.

And I hope every Marine involved is tried and executed if guilty.

[Fluffdaddy]

6. "collateral damage," My A$$.

I smell cover-up

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

60. C'mon Ben. Some of these Marines may have been sucked in

and participated, if only peripherally, because their own lives were on the line.

It sounds as if at least a few of them have come forward with the real story.

Dear God, it must be like an on-earth version of hell to watch your "comrades" off innocents and know that if you speak up, you'll be next. And, to deal with this at the ripe old age of 19 or 20 years of age.

MKJ

[baby_mouse]

67. What a shame for the poor soldiers. NT.

[benburch]

68. That's why I want a fair military trial for them. nt

[pocket]

3. in other news, water is wet

what's one more massacre.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. This will really help our image in the world's eyes

God, will this 'war' ever end....................

[pokercat999]

75. Not until all neo-cons are gone.

[SammyWinstonJack]

79. Not on **'s watch. He said as much yesterday.

:grr:

[ThomCat]

5. So only the marines fired any weapons

and there were no insurgents. But all the civilian deaths were "collateral damage?"
:wtf:

This was a slaughter, pure and simple. Those GIs need to be court martialed, and we should be bringing all of them home. We're not doing anything good over there.
:grr:

[Kagemusha]

18. Collateral damage here means the Marines can't be rightly blamed.

Like, they had one of their own killed and naturally went looking for blood, and these 15 people were simply in the way. The Marines may have thought something or other but basically it doesn't matter. The marine corp's treated the matter as an unfortunate but acceptable consequence of war that no one can be blamed for because well, it's natural to kill people when one of your own's been killed.

Gangs do it all the time.

[ThomCat]

19. That still doesn't justify going off and killing 15 innocent people.

That's not collateral damage, no matter what their definition is. That's murder.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheBaldyMan]

65. dupe

[oblivious]

22. There is nothing natural about killing innocents for revenge.

Gangs don't do that at all. Innocents only get killed wehen they get caught in the crossfire.

What a sad justification for murder you present here! 'Natural', my ass!

[lumpy]

29. There is strong evidence that there

was no crossfire in this incident.

[Pavulon]

32. This story

is bullshit. I pulled the link posted in the other thread. The child does not have a gunshot wound, period.

My wife has seen plenty in the raleigh durham area and that is not what a rifle wound looks like.

[lumpy]

35. Then why is the military investigating

this? Get real. You wife is an authority?

[PsN2Wind]

37. What was your wifes take

on the Shiavo video?

[Pavulon]

42. Never seen it

when she is not working TV falls low on the list of stuff we do. Most medical people I have met respect the fact life can end while the body lives.

[BrotherBuzz]

38. Does your wife, the surgeon, know the difference between....

a civilian hunting round and a military round?

[Pavulon]

41. A high velocity round

like the 5.56 nato and 7.62x39 both do massive trauma. Explosive at close range. She doesn't really care much for guns. They treat the damage. But she can tell the difference in a point blank shot and a ranged shot. And something that looks like what you get in high speed accidents with unrestrained people or motorcycle accident aftermath. Just isn't a gunshot.

She is saying something about inter-cranial pressure on a wound like that equaling blood pressure, pressing the brain out of the injury like toothpaste. Basically a fatal wound by itself. From crushing trauma. Tissue does not look like entry exit from a gunshot.

What they see the most of is handgun wounds. People who get shot with rifles and shotguns usually die on the spot.

If our guys acted illegally an any way they should be punished. But I an well beyond jumping behind every claim and allegation.

I'll wait untl the facts come out. Jenin massacre or my lai, time will tell.

[lumpy]

31. The victims were' not in the way'.

The murderers entered their homes and shot the Iraqi families dead, still in their nightclothes. There were bullet hole and blood all over the interior of the homes. There were no evidence of bullets fired on the exterior of the houses, indicating that the was no 'crossfire'. Someone entered those homes and committed the crime of deliberate execution.

[Kagemusha]

40. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm highlighting the military finding...

...because that finding is absurd, for reasons others have said here...

[lumpy]

28. A war crime

should involve more than court martial. If this was deliberate massacre by US soldiers, the penalty should be much more stringent. In view of the fact that we have seen pictures more recently of Iraqi children slaughtered (bodies in truck) in the past several days, something really evil is going on.
We hope of course that the US military is incapable of such atrocity, but it wouldn't be the first time this sort of evil has happened. Americans are not incapable any moreso than other societies of committing atrocities.

[ThomCat]

33. The soldiers responsible for this should

spend the rest of their lives locked up. But a court martial has to come first.

I agree with you, and that's why we need a methodical prosecution.

[The Stranger]

7. Why does the press put the headline word "massacre" in quotation marks?

Is it different because it is a "massacre" alleged by sub-humans (Iraqis)?

[EFerrari]

9. Have you seen these threads? They flip the roles. More than

sobering.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x707037

[Mandate My Ass]

8. If true, I wonder if this has anything to do with it

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060319/news_1n19mental.html

Some troops headed back to Iraq are mentally ill

[izzie]

10. Well when you teach men to kill this is what you get.

Read some stories on war and men and this should not shock many. It has been going on for thousands of years.Each country seems to wrap it in their own blanket to make it OK but it comes down to one thing. Men in armies kill people and are taught to do it.

[Voltaire99]

72. Exactly right.

The only surprising thing here is that we have learned about it.

[izzie]

74. We usually do hear about it, but it is when and what we do

Believe me the India knew who Gen, Dyer was and If the English did they did not wish to think if it.And just look at Japan. They sure will not say they did anything wrong in Nanking. (I think that city has been re-named)As a child I must have seem pictures of that as I used to have night mares about seeing the baby at the RR yard. I must have been born when all the wars were going on leading up to WW2 as my mother loved the movies and so went all the time. I think the news reels must have left an image on my mind.

[IndianaGreen]

80. Nanking is now Nanjing

Nanjing
(Nanking or Nan-ching)
Capital of Jiangsu Province

Meaning of the name

"Southern Capital"

Population

At the end of 1992 there were 2,680,000 people in the urban area of Nanjing, with another 2,520,000 people living in the surrounding counties and districts.

Location

On the south bank of the Chang Jiang (Yangzi River), 260 km northwest of Shanghai.

History

Nanjing has been cursed with an interesting history. Due to its strategic position on the Chang Jiang, it was a disputed prize during the Warring States period (476-221 BC). Under the Qin dynasty, which finally unified all of China, Nanjing enjoyed a period of stability as it served as the administrative center for the surrounding region. Its importance grew during the Western and Eastern Han dynasties, until the fall of the Eastern Han dynasty in 220 AD, when Nanjing became the capital of the state of Wu. With the overthrow of the Wu state however, Nanjing suffered from the strife that wracked China for the next 300 years. The years 507-589 in particular brought Nanjing a series of natural disasters, rebellions and invasions. In 589 General Wen Di captured Nanjing and destroyed all its important buildings, in order to firmly establish Beijing as the only capital of a united China. Nanjing enjoyed peaceful obscurity until 1368, when the first emperor of the Ming dynasty established his capital there. A brief period of prosperity followed with the building of new fortifications and the establishment of many commercial, administrative and educational institutions. But in 1420 the capital was returned to Beijing and Nanjing fell again into relative obscurity.

When British warships sailed up the Chang Jiang during the Opium War of 1842 they forced the Chinese government to sign the Treaty of Nanjing, which has been known ever since in China as the first of the "unequal treaties" it was to suffer under the western imperial powers. During the Taiping Rebellion of 1851-1864, it was the base of the rebel leader Hong Xiuquan, which ended when Nanjing was stormed by a combined army of Chinese and foreigners. Yet another upheaval came after 1911, when the Guomindang (Chinese Nationalists) under Sun Yatsen overthrew the Qing dynasty and eventually moved the capital from Beijing to Nanjing. During the Japanese invasion of 1937 Nanjing resisted strongly, but when it finally fell the Japanese subjected the city to what has been known ever since as the Nanjing Massacre, in which an estimated 300,000 people were murdered. After the Second World War ended in 1945 the nationalists again established their capital in Nanjing, but this period ended in 1949 with its capture by the Communists and the establishment of Beijing as capital of the People's Republic of China.

Peaceful and prosperous once more, Nanjing is an important commercial, industrial and cultural center. Major industries include motor vehicles, machine tools, textiles, chemicals and electronics.

http://www.magma.ca/~mtooker/cities/nanjing.htm

[izzie]

102. Thanks that was interesting.

--

[Voltaire99]

100. Well...

I understand. However, I was referring to the problem of US corporate news being less than eager to report on atrocities committed by our side.

The 20th century epitome of this problem is probably Tiger Force in Vietnam. The story required three decades before it was fully explored in the US media, and then not by a corporate but by one of the last of the small family-owned newspapers, the Toledo Blade. Whereupon the Blade's incredible series was ignored by the same corporate news whores so intent on bringing us WMD fantasies.

Ultimately, the Blade's winning a Pulitzer led to its series being paid begrudging attention by its competitors.

[izzie]

103. Yes the major news does not like to print stuff that makes us -----

look bad. I fear that is a normal thing but we just have to hope it does come out as how can we get better if we do not know the wrong that is going on? No it is not right but it is what happens. Do the papers sell them selfs. Yes I think they do but it must be hard to put your self on the line for an ideal. That would take in a very few percent of any pop. They have even made studies on that. Doing right because it is right is a rare item in life. Yale did one study on it with shocks but I have forgot the name of it.

[foo_bar]

101. what about the Swiss Army?

Neutral Switzerland has not led any wars since the 16th century, but it has remained ready for action. The military system of the small armed, neutral state differs fundamentally from that of other countries. In big, authoritarian states, the military embodies power; for these states, war is the last political option. If there is no other way to achieve their goal, these states will use force to get want they want. In Switzerland, however, the military has been driven for centuries by the will to resist power, not the will to exercise power. Even today, our military system is still defined by the concept of resistance.

http://www.auns.ch/en/meldungen/990508essence.htm

[wordpix2]

11. Rummy recruits kids who have no hope in US & turns them into killers

gives them low pay and 2,3,4 tours of duty in Iraq. Halliburton gives these soldiers polluted water. They're turned loose in 120 degree heat with heavy clothes, equipment, helmets and without enough troops to back them up and they're shot at by Iraqis and see their friends blown up, not in this instance but no doubt previously. And one day they snap.

Not to defend anyone responsible for a massacre, but I think we should consider the higher-ups responsible for this illegal war in the first place and not just blame the soldiers.

[mike_c]

16. I'm not interested in excuses or justifications....

I just want to see war criminals like these get what they deserve. It'll never happen in my lifetime, I suspect.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. "Children of Abraham: Death in the Desert"

By Chris Floyd, with many graphic photos of the aftermath of the massacre:

http://www.chris-floyd.com/march/

[lumpy]

34. Photos of the dead children

belies the Pentagon report of the number of people dead (i.e. one child). Who do you believe, the Pentagon or the graphic evidence and those who witnessed the deliberate killing of innocents ?

[Catrina]

47. That's a different massacre. The date of those killings is recent, Mar.15

The OP massacre took place last November ~

There are no words to express the horror but the words at the end of that report are true. Anyone who remains silent about this is complicit. And George Bush who lied about this war, bears the ultimate responsibility for all those deaths.

The British soldier who quit last week, did so because he could no longer be a part of what he witnessed ~

These pictures need to be sent to every member of Congress, and to Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Wolfowitz, not because they don't know about it, or care, but to let them know they can't hide it no matter how many journalists die over there.

:cry: I would hate to be anyone who supported this atrocious war :cry:

[LibertyorDeath]

63. I spend hours reading Chris Floyd as well as your great blog

Thanks for the link

They must have an elite group of hardcore sadists to do this kind of
"work"

So many will be in denial despite the evidence it turns all their
schema's on their head. They don't want to believe American troops are capable of committing such atrocities.

Well they are, this is the tip of a horrific iceberg imo.
In the not to distant future Negroponte will put these "troops"
to use domestically within the USA.

Good to see you posting.

[Teaser]

13. The Shi'ah may be pimping this story

because lately we've been "catching" and "exposing" their death squads. Which is not to say the story isn't true. Just that now they have a motive to expose our misdeeds as well.

[Mandate My Ass]

15. The death squads were trained and outfitted by US

and are doing our bidding. Now that journalists have exposed them the government has been trying to distance itself from them but they are working for the Interior Ministry with its full blessing.

The Salvador Option

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/

[Teaser]

21. We did start to train the death squads

but I see no evidence that the relationship has been satisfactory as far as we are concerned.

1) The Badr Corp didn't need any training, they got most of if from Iran during their time in exile.

2) The Corps has implemented their death squads on a scale far beyond what we had intended or planned. Or rather, far beyond what we intended or planned since we began playing Sunni off against Shi'ah. The Death squads were a fine strategy as long as we planned on backing the UIA government. However, that strategy has been thrown on the dustbin of history, and our most recent strategy is one of trying to empower former Baathists, to , in effect, revive aspects of the Saddam political machine. So now the Shi'ah have little motivation to turn a blind eye to our crimes.

[saigon68]

51. Negroponte killed Nuns--- This is his work

He is a Killer and a Criminal

[INDIA]

91. No they weren't

You are 100% wrong. Thanks for spreading false information though.

[TrogL]

14. My Lai redux?

[Jacobin]

23. Same thought came to my mind

Guess they'll have to pull Colin Powell out of retirement to help cover this one up, too.

[llmart]

39. My first thought exactly.....

but then I am old enough to remember that.

The complacent Americans need to see the video.

[IndianaGreen]

71. The whole of Iraq is a free fire zone for US troops

many of which are racist and religious fanatics that think they are killing infidels for Christ.

[MasonJar]

17. What's with the Marines killing innocent civilians because they

are mad, especially a three year old girl. How can anyone who has a shred of decency live with that? Get the troops home NOW.

[The_Casual_Observer]

20. According to jr, this has made us "safer". "Let Freedom Reign!"

[ContraBass Black]

24. Oh God.

I'm not hopeful.

[lumpy]

25. In depth article, Guardian UK re. massacre

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5699541,00.html

Looks bleak. Judge for yourselves.

[mom cat]

59. Shooting children is Always a breach of thr "rules of engagenent".

Thanks for the article.

[HuffleClaw]

26. this happened in NOVEMBER

and we're only learning about it now?! good thing there's a video that seems to refute their claims of a 'firefight'. but the 'investigation' will invariably clear the marines of any wrongdoing of course.

[Robeson]

27. So this is what our tax dollars are used for....murder, plain and simple.

[brentspeak]

44. Yeah, let's forget the trial and go straight to the firing squad

Judge Judy has a better sense of legal justice than the lynch mobbers on this board.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Robeson]

45. "legal justice" in an illegal war. You have a funny sense of justice...

...too...:eyes:

[superconnected]

48. I believe with our military the investigation may get a private some

prison time.

[lumpy]

50. "Yeah , let's forget the trial and go straight

to the firing squad". Your words, no one elses'. Lynch mobbers on this board ? Get real, not funny. Most here are appalled at these killings because we care about the killing of innocents and we do want to see justice. Legal justice under the same laws that we in the civilian world live with.

[Gregorian]

30. And do not forget the thousands of Afganis murdered in containers.

Military, if I remember. But nevertheless, our people witnessed it. And it's documented. Thousands were murdered. This story is gone down the sinkhole of nonreporting. But I have seen the tv documentary that only aired on Linktv and the likes.

It happens in every war. Where there are guns, there is death. None of it is right.

Sad. I wish we could force an end to it.

[mom cat]

96. Here is the link to that documentary: Convoy of Death

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3267.htm

[catchnrelease]

36. Not surprising

When I discuss this kind of thing with my SigOth, who is a Vietnam vet (that saw plenty when he was there and has scars all over his body from things that happened to him then), he says that "There's nothing more dangerous than a 19 year old with a gun" under battlefield conditions.

Everyone involved is destroyed in one way or another--physically, mentally or emotionally.


Edit: to add that this was not an meant as an anti-gun statement, we are both sport shooters.

[superconnected]

46. They did it in vietnam, why expect less here.

Our completely volunteer army that we're supposed to feel sorry for because it's out of their control, are probably turning into baby killers.

Oh scuse me - 3yo killers.

And we get in trouble if we don't support our volunteer men and women carrying machines guns and shooting at people.

Ya gotta love blood to appease the republican rhetoric of, "support our troops."

Well I don't love blood, and I don't support our bushbot troops.

[Kailassa]

55. I agree with you but ... I still feel sorry for them.

My career has been in education and healing, but I wonder how different things could have been if, when I was young and mixed-up and angry, I'd been trained to kill and sent to war.

Many here will be convinced they could never have descended to that level, but imagine you are in that environment, brainwashed, living with fear and death. And then imagine you didn't have the intellect to go against the propaganda you're fed, that the family and community you grew up in supported hatred and violence.

A favourite saying of the community I grew up in was, "there, but for the grace of god, go I," so I'm just being a product of my environment too.

This is not to say that the perpetrators should not be courtmarshalled and shot, something does need to be done to stop this sort of violence. But I see it as a time for sadness for vulnerable people who were corrupted, as well as for their victims. Hatred here helps nobody.

[INDIA]

93. Don't feel "sorry for" our servicemen

They don't want your misguided sympathy. And no, they aren't "brainwashed", that's total bullshit. Nobody is going to be "shot" after "courtmarshall" (nice spelling). You admitted yourself that you have no military knowledge or experience, so please realize how little your opinion means is to me. I'd rather hear comments from the many veterans or military family members on this site. You're making uneducated judgments/comments from the peanut gallery.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

62. I'm a veteran, so I'm a little biased. However, our troops are in a

hell-hole lose/lose situation.

And, they are dealing with situations most of us here at DU couldn't fathom, while in their late adolescence or early adulthood years.

Based on the story being released, it seems at least a couple of these soldiers decided to tell the truth.

It must be f*&^ing hard to maintain honor and integrity in an illegal and brutal war. I will never abandon the troops who were used and abused for the gain of the wealthy few. MKJ

edited to add: BTW, I don't at all or in any way condone killing civilians. Those who are directly responsible should be tried and convicted and suffer the consequences of their crimes. However, I believe that that lines are so blurred for a lot of the kids out there, they truly go into "Lord of the Flies" survival mode and don't have the luxury of time to explore what's right. Also, they can be at risk for being killed by their fellow soldiers. (Pat Tillman?) MKJ

[Fluffdaddy]

53. AMERICAN MORNING: Ware Baghdad bureau chief for "Time" magazine transcript

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/20/ltm.01.html



ROBERTS: Yes, some people have said the greater analogy would have been Vietnam as opposed to World War Two.


Michael, you brought with you some video today of an incident in Haditha, out in the western par of Iraq, back in November. What can you tell us about the video and that incident, which has also been written about in "Time" magazine, though by a different correspondent?

WARE: Well, what the video shows us is the insides and the external shots of a house in the western township of Haditha. It clearly shows the aftermath of what is evidently a terrible incident. The precise nature of that incident is now the subject of a Naval investigation, a criminal investigation. It seems that whilst there was a form or combat near this house, an IED was detonated on an American Marine convoy, killing one Marine. There was then what followed a large number of shots fired by U.S. forces, they say, in response to an insurgent attack. Either way, at the end of it, it turns out there was a lot of civilians who were killed. They're now trying to determine the causes of that.

ROBERTS: Right, and some people making the charge it may have been the American military that was responsible for those deaths.

Michael Ware, "Time" magazine -- Michael, sorry, we're out of time here. But fascinating story. Michael Ware, "Time" magazine's Baghdad bureau chief, thanks very much for being with us -- Soledad.

[ConcernedCanuk]

54. The "Massacre" started when the USA sent missiles from afar to Baghdad

.
.
.

"Brave" futhermuckers, eh?

Shame on the World for letting this carnage persist

(sigh)

[Kailassa]

57. Shame on the world?

Shame on my country, Australia, for cheerleading, and for putting in just enough of a presence to justify a claim to the spoils. But most of the world vehemently opposed this war.

How were they meant to prevent it? Bomb America in response?

[ConcernedCanuk]

77. "How were they meant to prevent it?" - sanctions

.
.
.

Canada could have done more than just refuse to participate

We could have just bit the bullet and cut off trade

Sure

Businesses would have suffered

But the USA needs our gas, lumber, water, etc.

If our leaders could direct their thinking a little more towards self-sufficiency,

We could survive quite well without dealing with the USA

For our tiny population of 30 million, we have more resources than we need (if used wisely)

But corporate greed(yeah we have that in Canada too) prevails,

(sigh)

[ckramer]

61. Gooooood morning Vietnam! n/t

[TankLV]

64. And I don't doubt it for a second.

I am so ashamed of our country and what these poor soldiers are being forced to do by the WAR Criminals in OUR White House.

[TheBaldyMan]

66. BBC radio News reported that the Iraqi dead had been discovered in their

nightclothes, the marine squad had killed them in their homes, including several children.

The squad had been ambushed by a roadside IED and then had fire coming from 'all directions' after the explosion. One marine was killed and several wounded. The iraqi casualties were caused as the marines stormed their houses. It seems that there was an initial attempt at a cover up, the iraqi casualies were described as insurgents, then later as collateral damage. Now the investigation is about whether the marines contravened the laws of war by deliberately targetting civilians.

[Judi Lynn]

82. Thanks for reporting their radio remarks It's doubtful they'd involve

themselves in passing on frivolous rumors, certainly. I would imagine they believe there's substance in their information. I would imagine they're telling the truth.

[AzDar]

69. Murder is murder.....I understand that our Troops are under horrible

stresses. However, that is NOT a reason for abandoning one's humanity, imho.
Every incident like this compounds the hatred for the military forces stationed there, and puts THEM at greater risk, whether they were ever complicit in something horrific like this or not.

[genie_weenie]

70. This is worrisome

Because this is the progression in guerilla warfare. You can only strain a military force with an occupation role for so long until non-combatants start to be treated under the infamous Rule 3-0-3.

The dangerous thought begins to enter the minds of leaders (at all levels) that certain "gross" actions become justifiable in order to achieve victory. This is the evil of utilitarianism, which taken to the extreme allows for the murder of 1000 persons if the lives of 1001 persons are improved.

I will wait until the investigation is complete before I judge these Marines, but I can understand the worry on the DU and elsewhere that any military investigation is tainted and will not be believed.

[Voltaire99]

73. Good post. (nt)

[TheBaldyMan]

76. sounds like Saddam Hussein is back in charge

I think the point was passed a long time ago. When Bush Jr said the rape rooms and torture chambers were now closed there was a short hiatus then they opened up again. The mass graves that held 100,000's of bodies had been discovered but the Iraqi dead have only recently been acknowledged by the administration. Hussein was in charge for 30+ years and the US for 3, I wonder if you multiply the Iraqi death toll since the invasion by ten how many mass graves you could fill.

[genie_weenie]

78. I CAN NOT believe we

are engaging in systematic murder. Despite America's history, the effects of guerilla war, *'s dismissal of human right's I'm in contact with too many guys over there to believe that US troops are rounding up and slaughtering Iraqis in cold blood...

[TheBaldyMan]

81. I posted on this topic elsewhere

I don't think they are rounding up people like cattle and slaughtering them but the truth is no less unsettling.

my post on the BBC follow up on Times report on Hadith shootings

I would have thought that british servicemen had more sense, then the video of the Green Jackets beating up those kids came to light. Personally I think that there will be US units that are well led and effective but with the standard being set by the Bush Administration things like Abu Ghraib become commonplace. I hope that your friends overseas have the benefit of being commanded by real, honourable soldiers who have the strength of conviction to keep their troops acting like soldiers and not bandits.

[Judi Lynn]

84. Iraqi video shows alleged attack by US troops

Iraqi video shows alleged attack by US troops
- By Bassem Mroue

Baghdad, March 22: A videotape taken by an Iraqi shows the aftermath of an alleged attack by US troops on civilians in their homes in a western town last November: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

An Iraqi human rights group condemned the bloodshed in the town of Haditha, saying on Tuesday that it could be "one of dozens of incidents that were not revealed."

The video, obtained by Time magazine and repeatedly aired by Arab televisions throughout the day, also showed bodies of women and children in plastic bags on the floor of what appeared to be a morgue.

Men were seen standing in the middle of bodies, some of which were covered with blankets before being placed in a pickup truck.
(snip/...)

http://www.asianage.com/main.asp?layout=2&cat1=3&cat2=79&newsid=215230&RF=DefaultMain

[Julius Civitatus]

85. We have reached the MY-LAI stage of the Iraq war

Now it's all about revenge and shooting everyone in our way, cause we no longer know what we are doing there, who's on our side, and who's our enemy. These indiscriminate shootings of mean, women and children have the horrendous whiff of of the My-Lai massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

What a fine mess Bush has created on that country.

[saigon68]

88. AAH YES MY LAI HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?

Answer; IT ISN'T !!!





Colin Powell, then a young US Army Major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference My Lai (Glen had no knowledge of the events there). Powell wrote: "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." Later, Powell's refutation would be called an act of "white-washing" the news of My Lai, and questions would continue to remain undisclosed to the public

[Judi Lynn]

86. Iraq's My Lai?

March 22, 2006

Iraq's My Lai?
US Troops Shooting Any Iraqi Who Moves
By PATRICK COCKBURN

Arbil, Iraq.

The US military is investigating two incidents in which American soldiers killed at least 26 Iraqi civilians and then claimed that they were either guerrillas or had died in cross fire.

The growing evidence of retaliatory killings of unarmed Iraqi families, often including children, by US soldiers seemingly bent on punishing Iraqis after an attack, will spark comparisons with the massacre of Vietnamese villagers at My Lai in 1968.

US troops have been notorious among Iraqis for their willingness to shoot any Iraqi they see in the aftermath of an insurgent attack. But it is only now that convincing and detailed information is becoming available about the killings.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick03222006.html

[LaCrosseDem]

87. This kind of thing happens in EVERY war, and

constitutes an excellent reason for not having wars.

As much as we would like to believe that our boys wouldn't do this, war does horrible things to minds. When you start with a sociopath and then subject (him) to the "fog of war," you get atrocities like this.

[lagavulin]

92. Anyone remember this great post on DU a couple months ago?

Poster happyslug outlines why year-4 in Viet Nam ushered in a burgeoning degeneration in our troop's psyche and tactics, and why year-4 in Iraq (which is 2006) is showing the same pattern....

link here

summary quote:
"The problem is we are following the same pattern as in 1965-1968, the NCOs leaving do to the heavy commitments required of them, their replacements NOT being as good as the NCO they are replacing, and a slow decline in the over capability of the Enlisted Ranks. This is what happened in Vietnam and is happening again. IT took four years of heavy fighting for the Vietnam army to Break, when will this Army break? We went in in 2002 not 2001 thus 2006 is the FOURTH YEAR SINCE the war started. Can you spell debacle?"

[hedgehog]

94. We've reached the stage where we can't track the carnage

From day to day we don't know who's killing who, where American troops are getting shot at, where they're shooting at people, where Iraqis are shooting at each other. We can't tell today's massacre from last year's. Welcome to Viet Nam, the Home Front.

[plasticsundance]

95. DemocracyNow interviewed one of the Time reporters.

APARISIM GHOSH: In addition to the 15. We looked into this case, and the more we dug, the more we thought that something didn't quite add up. And when we finally got our hands on this videotape, it became very clear to us that these people could not have been killed outdoors by an explosive device. They were killed in their homes in their night clothes. The night clothes are significant, because Iraqi women and children, especially, are very, very unlikely to go outdoors wearing their night clothes. It is a very conservative society.

When we first approached the Marines with this evidence, they responded in quite a hostile fashion. They accused us of buying into enemy propaganda. That aroused our suspicions even further, because it seemed to be excessively hostile on their part. And we dug even more. We spoke to witnesses. We spoke to survivors of this incident. And then we became quite convinced that these people were killed by the Marines. What is left to be seen is whether they were killed in the course of the Marine operation as collateral damage or by accident, or whether the Marines went on a rampage after one of their own had been killed and killed these people in revenge.

APARISIM GHOSH: Well, the survivors claimed -- let me back up a little bit. The Marines claim that they received small arms fire from nearby homes and that they responded to this fire, they shot back, and then they went into the homes to try and flush out the bad guys, the terrorists who were in there. It’s clear from the video that those homes don't have any bullet marks outside, which would suggest that there was very little, if any, shooting by the Marines at the facades of these homes. But there are lots of signs of bullets inside.

The victims told us that the Marines came in and they killed everybody inside. In one house they threw a grenade into a kitchen. That set off a propane tank and nearly destroyed the kitchen and killed several people in that home. The scenes that were described by the survivors and the witnesses were incredibly bloody and very graphic. But they are, unfortunately, very commonplace in Iraq.

More ...

[Murdock]

97. Dammit..

The investigation is ongoing... Can't we give our guys the benefit of the doubt here instead of rushing to judgement?

[Fluffdaddy]

104. ZOT

[Pewlett Hackard]

105. what's to investigate?

perpetrators of a criminal war resulting in the deaths of innocent women and children.