GA House approves Bible course in public high schools

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4657390&nav=0RaP

Atlanta, Georgia-AP) March 20, 2006 - A bill that allows public high schools to offer classes on the Bible sped through the Georgia House Monday, passing overwhelmingly with no debate.

The legislation, which passed 151-7, would allow high schools to form elective courses on the history and literature of the Old Testament and New Testament eras. The classes would focus on the law, morals, values and culture of the eras.

Under the proposal, the Old Testament and New Testament would be the primary text for each class and the local school board would decide which version of the text to use.

Students would also have the option to use a different version of the text. The proposal, originally introduced by a band of Senate Democrats, surprised many by urging that the Bible should be taught as an elective in Georgia's public schools.

Republicans quickly substituted their own version, which specifies that the Bible itself would be the course textbook.

[valerief]

1. These people baffle me to no end.

[RubyDuby in GA]

5. I will respond to this later when I am able to do so without cussing a

blue streak.

Sonsabitches....

Goddamned Republicans pandering asshole bastards.....

They make my eye twitch....

Fuck.

On edit: I know it was the goddamn pandering asshole Dems that originally introduced this, but of course, the majority party took the idea and ran with it and now it's become a mockery. I can't say anymore. I just can't believe this has become my state...jesus christ on a trailer hitch.

Off to write to the fucking House Dems and tell them just how well their ridiculous plan "worked".

[CottonBear]

6. What Ruby said.

:grr:

[BlueEyedSon]

2. not one penny of public money should go to that!

[saigon68]

3. When does the movie come out?

Or better yet--- the classic comic book

[MadMaddie]

4. So whose bible is the course going to be based off of?

The Jewish and other religions need to screem about equal representation in these courses...wonder what the reaction would be for those requests?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

22. However, if it is being taught in a historical, literature format

and not as a religious format, this really is not that bad. The first five books of the O.T. comprise the Jewish Torah, and a lot of the rest of the O.T. is Jewish history.

I, too a certain degree, think it would be great for the history of the bible to be taught in school so that young minds can have some kind of non-sectarian exposure to just how brutal, condemning, and bloody it really is.

[yardwork]

30. Will they be offering classes on neo-paganism?

I, being a pagan, was just wondering.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

42. For myself, I would prefer that high schools taught classes

about all the worlds major religions and their history.

[Massacure]

44. Like the curriculum in my district.

My school taught us about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism; mainly the history behind them and how they all interact. We studied that for an entire year in social studies, back in middle school. I thought it was actually quite interesting.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

46. Well it is interesting because the development of all societies

is influenced by their religion and theology. So if one wants to understand history and how we got to where we are today one has to study the underlying principles, and not the doctrine and dogma versions that one gets in the churches.

[depakid]

37. It's Georgia so it'll be evangelical protestantism

In my experience, Southern Babtists don't have a whole lot more respect for other denomications of their own creed than they do other religions.

[Rocknrule]

47. The King George version

you know, with all the asteriks next to "thou shalt not kill" and the only real commandment is "thou shalt not be gay"

[paparush]

49. And thou shalt not impeed the flow of blood money into ..

corporate coffers.

It just amazes me that these *cough* Christians *cough* so blatently ignore Jesus' message - Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. House the homeless. Pray for those who persecute you.

In the King James' edition ( I also find it SO ironic that hard core christians, white-uptight-in-church -every-night, base their entire beliefs on a book edited by a rich, fat, white English King...the same kind of king we fought a revolution to get away from..) Christ utters not one word about homosexuals. And who did christ hang out with? The outcasts, the prositutes, the diseased, the marginalized. Christ was AGAINST big govt...right?? ((the last shall be first, and the first shall be last..))

My guess is that the religious right strays from Jesus, because Jesus was a Jew...and the neo-cons cannot stomach that. They want the blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, when in fact, he probably looked much more like the poor Iraqui's we've been slaughtering for 3 years.

Man, I'm rambling...sorry.

[IsItJustMe]

7. Maybe we don't need christian schools anymore since public shcools are

going to take over that function. They are going down a very polluted path.

[BR_Parkway]

8. Was introduced by Dems, as a way to prove what BS the Repugs

promise but won't deliver. The RePugs went out of their way to kill the original bill because they didn't want to give any Dem any possible advantage and lost a huge part of the evengelical GOTV group when the Rev realized how badly he was being used.

Read about it here (shameless self promotion):

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/BR_Parkway/1

[RubyDuby in GA]

9. That's not how it will play out here though

All the little psycho fundies will rejoice that their GOP legislature is finally letting them have their bible study in school.

It's supposed to be taught as literature, but you already get that in any decent literature class in public schools.

This is election year pandering at its absolute worst.

I am absolutely livid with this shit. I am also embarrassed beyond belief that this bunch of crackpots has taken over the state.

Hell in a handbasket.........we are on the fast track here.

[Lost-in-FL]

12. That is how I heard of the news a few months back...

Democrats were tired of the fundies using the bible for their own agenda so they thought it was wise to teach kids about the "real" teachings of the Bible. Like for example "Thou shall not kill" means that if you really want to follow the bible as it is you cannot be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty which means that freepers are full of shit.

I once had a full course on "Don Quixote", so why would it be a bid deal to teach kids about another fictional book (The Bible). Well, I guess it all depends which side is doing the teaching.

[datadiva]

10. Don't they have any Sunday Schools in churches in GA? n/t

[CottonBear]

17. Of course they do, but that's not good enough for the GA GOP whores

pandering to their stupid, fundy. RW minions. :grr:

[WI_DEM]

11. This will go to the Supreme Court won't it?

Not that we have much hope anymore there either.

[Terran1212]

13. My state = mentally handicapped

'nuff said

[raccoon]

55. Don't feel bad. Lots of other states are too.

I used to think my state (SC) was the most mentally handicapped.

Thanks to the Internet and DU, I know there are lots of states competing for the honor.

[Terran1212]

59. At least we're not as bad as Alabama

It's always there to make us feel good.

[Sue Bell for CJ2]

64. Alabama Repubs blocked a similar bills

nm

[HuffleClaw]

14. i can't see this surviving a court challenge

seems to me a course in the torah and the Quran would also be permissable.

[Zenlitened]

15. "...the Bible itself would be the course textbook."

I once took a class like that.

It was called Sunday School.

:puke:

[superconnected]

16. scares the F* out of me. Of course many christians are scared of

Christians who want to teach the "morals" of the old testament.

Reminds me of some quotes I read recently. Basically that the money lenders have finally thrown Jesus out of the temple. And that the Christian Jesus is often the Dead Jesus. He isn't allowed to speak. He's supposed to shut up and stay on the cross.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

18. As an 'elective' which is not masquerading as pseudo-science, ok.

In my opinion, this is the least offensive thing that they have done in the past year. It's when they challenge true science with nonsense unscience and incorporate it into mandatory classes that I go through the roof.

[geniph]

19. I want to introduce a bill to teach biology in Sunday school

makes just as much sense to me...

[RubyDuby in GA]

20. I want to introduce a bill that outlaws right-wing stupidity

I still have not calmed down enough to properly discuss this.

Stupid assholes...

[David Zephyr]

21. Ah, but which "religious denomination" will "teach" the classes?

Should it be Catholic?
Should it be Baptist?
Should it be Pentecostal?
Should it be Mormon?
Should it be Jehovah's Witness?
Should it be Methodist?

And why shouldn't Hare Krishna and Islam and other faiths be also allowed to be "taught" alongside the Bible classes?

Who chooses and what do they choose?

This is why Madison and Jefferson were so passionate about "the wall of separation between church and state".

[bnr65432]

28. speaking of deciding which version to use

a policy of Pennsylvania schools until 1843 called for protestant Bible reading
when the Philadelphia school board decided to let irish catholics use their own
Bible Nativist protestants started riots, leading to church burnings and some
murders. Do we really want to go back to 1843

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/activities/activity.jsp?ar=526

[dback]

23. This could turn out to be VERY advantageous, in a weird way

Think about it: a class that truly studies the Bible as a set of commandments, laws, and geneology for a tribe of people living in the Middle East several thousand years ago.

Start underlining the redundancies, the misinfomation, the rules that have been discarded along the way vs. the ones that people still swear by. (Leviticus, Deuteronomy et all are gonna get QUITE the analysis.) Now start analyzing how many of these rules and regulations conflict with our democracy.

How many students are aware that the Bible doesn't criticize slavery, but it does criticize divorce? That Jesus says nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about economic justice, fairness, and taking care of the poor? That many of the Bible's greatest kings had numerous wives, plus concubines? (So much for the Biblical "one man-one woman" paradigm.)

This could be a lot of fun.

(And as an English guy, I have to admit: I think it's good that students get a few basic Biblical themes under their belts, so that they can see how they're used again and again in a LITERARY sense in poetry, literature, etc--the Creation, the Temptation, the Fall, the expulsion from Eden, sacrifice and redemption, death and resurrection, etc. But I also think excepts from the Koran and the Talmud should be taught as a comparative exercise as well.)

[Debau2005]

24. I took a

Comparative Religion class in college. Made my fundie father so mad, I thought he was going to have a stroke!! :rofl: It was my first experience with non-Protestant religions. I learned the beauty of Buddhist, and other Eastern religions.

I know this is not going to be an objective course on literature, I live in GA, and I know my neighbors to well...I do hope someone with children in GA public schools creates a court battle to include other religions as well.

[HockeyMom]

25. Catholic HS

Yes, we were required to take "Comparative Religions" in HS, too. No, we did not sit around reading the Bible in school, not even in the elementary grades. I learned about ALL religions in HS. Yes, I can remember reading passages from the Koran, among other religious texts. My Senior Paper for Religion class was to give the arguments as to why there was NO GOD. Probably would give these Fundies a heart attack over that one.

[brer cat]

38. My daughter attended Catholic schools in Ga also,

and when she entered her 1st religion class in HS, the priest said "there is one rule: you will respect every opinion expressed in this class." It was a wonderful experience for my daughter where different religious beliefs, and many (often painful) life issues were discussed openly and frankly.

That said, I'm not happy about this because I know the fundies will grab it and run with the ball. However, bible study and religious studies can do a lot of good, it's just almost impossible to get them into the right hands.

[burned]

32. the very second

that this is offered in my daughter's highschool, I will be submitting a request for an elective class that studies the Koran.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Start on your school district NOW!

The classes will not necessarily be adopted in all Georgia districts. Band together with other like-minded parents & begin making your case.

[NoGOP]

26. Well........

I'm not crazy about it but the article did say it was an elective. If it was mandatory I'd really have heartburn over it.

[sarcasmo]

27. When will they start burning us Atheists at the stake? Ten years?

Twenty years? This country has become a JOKE. A Christian Theocracy.

[superconnected]

36. Get in line

muslim burnings first. Athiests will be killed shortly after the wiccans.

[sarcasmo]

57. Wiccans before Atheists, I didn't know I was that far down the hate list.

Thanks for the info.

[Sgent]

29. The legislative text

This is the bill status according to The Georgia Legislature Bill Status (SB79)

To amend Part 2 of Article 6 of Chapter 2 of Title 20 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to competencies and core curriculum for elementary and secondary students under the "Quality Basic Education Act," so as to provide for the offering of state funded high school courses in the History and Literature of the Old Testament Era and the History and Literature of the New Testament Era; to provide for the adoption of the curricula for such courses by the State Board of Education; to provide for reading materials, and methods of teaching in such courses; to provide for certain matters relating to the employment and assignment of teachers of such courses; to provide for the granting of academic credit for the successful completion of such courses; to provide for the monitoring of the content and teaching of such courses; to provide for related matters; to provide for an effective date; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other purposes.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF GEORGIA:

SECTION 1.

Part 2 of Article 6 of Chapter 2 of Title 20 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to competencies and core curriculum for elementary and secondary students under the "Quality Basic Education Act," is amended by adding at the end thereof a new Code section to read as follows:
"20-2-148.

(a) All public schools with grade nine or above may make available to eligible students in grades nine through 12 an elective course in the History and Literature of the Old Testament Era and an elective course in the History and Literature of the New Testament Era. The purpose of such courses shall be to accommodate the rights and desires of those teachers and students who wish to teach and study the Old and New Testaments and to familiarize students with the contents of the Old and New Testaments, the history recorded by the Old and New Testaments, the literary style and structure of the Old and New Testaments, the customs and cultures of the peoples and societies recorded in the Old and New Testaments, and the influence of the Old and New Testaments upon law, history, government, literature, art, music, customs, morals, values, and culture.

(b)(1) No later than February 1, 2007, the State Board of Education shall adopt a curriculum for each course, including objectives, reading materials, and lesson plans, which has been prepared in accordance with the requirements of this subsection.

(b)(2) The book or collection of books commonly known as the Old Testament shall be the basic text for the course in the History and Literature of the Old Testament Era, and the book or collection of books commonly known as the New Testament shall be the basic text for the course in the History and Literature of the New Testament Era. In addition, students may be assigned a range of reading materials for the courses, including selections from secular historical and cultural works and selections from other religious and cultural traditions. The courses shall familiarize students with the customs and cultures of the times and places referred to in the Old and New Testaments. The courses shall familiarize the students with the methods and tools of writing at the times the Old and New Testament books were written, the means by which they were preserved, the languages in which they were written and into which they were translated, and the historical and cultural events which led to the translation of the Old and New Testaments into the English language. The local board of education may recommend which version of the Old or New Testament may be used in the course; provided, however, that the teacher of the course shall not be required to adopt that recommendation but may use the recommended version or another version. No student shall be required to use one version as the sole text of the Old or New Testament. If a student desires to use as the basic text a different version of the Old or New Testament from that chosen by the local board of education or teacher, he or she shall be permitted to do so.

(b)(3) The courses provided for in this Code section shall:

(b)(3)(A) Be taught in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students as to either the truth or falsity of the biblical materials or texts from other religious or cultural traditions;

(b)(3)(B) Not include teaching of religious doctrine or sectarian interpretation of the Bible or of texts from other religious or cultural traditions; and

(b)(3)(C) Not disparage or encourage a commitment to a set of religious beliefs.

(c) The provisions of this chapter relating to personnel employed by local units of administration, including without limitation certification requirements, employment, and supervision, shall apply to persons who teach the courses provided for in this Code section. In addition, no person shall be assigned to teach such courses based in whole or in part on any religious test, profession of faith or lack thereof, prior or present religious affiliation or lack of affiliation, or criteria involving particular beliefs or lack thereof about the Bible. Except for these requirements, the qualifications and training of teachers shall be determined by the local boards of education.

(d) On and after July 1, 2007, for the purpose of earning Carnegie unit curriculum credits at the high school level, satisfactory completion of the course in the History and Literature of the Old Testament Era shall be accepted by the State Board of Education for one-half unit of elective credit, and satisfactory completion of the course in the History and Literature of the New Testament Era shall be accepted by the State Board of Education for one-half unit of elective credit; provided, however, that such courses are taught in strict compliance with the requirements of this Code section.

(e) A local board of education may make such arrangements for monitoring the content and teaching of the course in the History and Literature of the Old Testament Era and the course in the History and Literature of the New Testament Era as it deems appropriate.

(f) Nothing in this Code section shall be construed to limit the authority of a local board of education to offer courses regarding the Old Testament or the New Testament that are not in compliance with this Code section; provided, however, that no state funds distributed pursuant to this article shall be expended in connection with such a course that does not meet the requirements of this Code section.

(g) Nothing in this Code section shall be construed to prohibit local boards of education from offering elective courses based upon the books of other religions or societies. In determining whether to offer such courses, the local board may consider various factors including, but not limited to, student and parent demand for such courses and the impact such books have had upon history and culture."

SECTION 2.

This Act shall become effective on July 1, 2006.

SECTION 3.

All laws and parts of laws in conflict with this Act are repealed.

[onehandle]

31. Without Atlanta, Georgia is Mississippi.

Worse even. We suck.

[CottonBear]

41. Don't forget Athens and Savannah!

I'm partial to Athens since it's my home. :)

[BootinUp]

33. Let them have their elective course.

My kid will be whipping their butts on the SAT in the meanwhile.

[brer cat]

40. Dream on Jim

I hate this law and I live in GA. But you are a piss poor example for opposition. My daughter attended Catholic HS where she was required to take religion every year but she also had electives which she used to take 2 years each of German and Spanish and three years of French. She nailed her SATS and today is a 4.0 senior in college ... with 2 children and a full-time job. Are your "kids" really going to kick her butt?

[BootinUp]

43. Maybe you should ask your daughter

what the definition of a massacre is, because I can't figure how you or any other GA democrat plans to oppose this in any effective manner.

I don't think you made a counterpoint to my toungue in cheek example in any case, you are comparing private schools and public schools.

Perhaps the courts will force them to modify the bill, since it is not a course on various religions and since the schools will not be required to offer electives on other religions.

[brer cat]

62. I'm not sure how " massacre " fits into this thread but

my read of your post was that adding religious studies dumbed-down the curriculum...which is false if you witness Catholic schools. That argument doesn't help those of us fighting to stop the courses in public schools i.e. having religion classes per se doesn't deprive students of the classes they need to perform.

I chose to send my daughter to Catholic schools (I am not Catholic) because GA public schools are near the pits, and I personally paid every dime and dollar. But it doesn't help the "cause" to say the option to elect religious classes leads to students who can't compete. GA public schools are generally dreadful and we need to change that; most parents can't afford private schools. We ALSO need to find a way to stop this bill...religion does NOT belong in public schools, and in GA it's almost guaranteed that the fundamentalists will control the content--even worse.

Any ideas to HELP us in this would be GREATLY appreciated!

[Bridget Burke]

51. The Bible Course that will probably be selected....

Is an extremely Fundamentalist version that insults many Protestants--not to mention Catholics & Jews. For some kids, it will replace more valuable courses in the already-stressed public schools.

Your daughter's education is not comparable. Georgia Public School students who substitute other electives for the Bible classes will, indeed, be improving their further educational prospects.

[VegasWolf]

34. What century is it again? nt

[depakid]

35. That in place of???

science, art, foreign language, literature, history- and whatever other academic subjects could (and probably should) be offered.

Stories like these really make me wish that it were possible to divide the nation. Let the Southern and lower midwestern states have their repressive theocracies. Leave the Constitution (and a modicum of sanity) to the rest of us. Do a partition like India & Pakistan in 1948.

Be best for both sets of regions.

I actually that sometimes (usually when I'm visiting my family back there).

[54anickel]

39. Heh, I can just hear the fundies complaining. It doesn't sound like

it's going to be taught literally, which is how they read and interpret the Bible. They may very well come to regret ever pushing for Bible classes in their kid's schools. I'm willing to bet their kids won't be the ones attending.

[mitchum]

45. Are they going to learn that it is crazyass nonsense made up

by a bunch of raggedyass superstitious herdsmen thousands of years ago?

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Sounds like it will be a nightmare to teach

It's meant to be 'objective':

(b)(3)(A) Be taught in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students as to either the truth or falsity of the biblical materials or texts from other religious or cultural traditions;

(b)(3)(B) Not include teaching of religious doctrine or sectarian interpretation of the Bible or of texts from other religious or cultural traditions; and

(b)(3)(C) Not disparage or encourage a commitment to a set of religious beliefs.

But there's an awful lot of bits of the Bible where all that is difficult - if it focuses on "law, morals, values and culture", you might say "don't teach Genesis at all - it's just creation myths and national origin legends", but some fundie is bound to object that it's part of the culture, and then you would have to keep a straight face while teaching about Noah. And when some kid says "that couldn't happen, could it?" how do you steer between teaching "truth or falsity"?

Then the students can use their own translations. So when you get to the "10 Commandments" (the first ones, not the ones that are actually called the ten commandments in the Bible, that end telling you not to boil a kid in its own mother's milk) is it "you shall not kill" or "you shall not murder"? You could spend the rest of the course debating the implications of that.

The basic problem is that there will be too many entrenched opinions on what should be taught; and I suspect fundamentalists will win out through sheer perserverance - they'll keep going (or forcing their kids to go, and getting them to say exactly what was taught each day) until they get their way. Non-literalists, or non-believers who could look on it as an ancient history course, just won't find the arguments educational, and will give up and choose something else.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Sounds like the Battle of the Bible Curricula is just beginning.

The original Democratic sponsored bill recommended "The Bible & Its Influence." "The National Council On Bible Curriculum in Public Schools" has a more conservative curriculum--already taught in some public schools.

Check out the "Current News" on the NCBCPS site for screeds against the more liberal text. They are mostly PDF, but the main thrust is that "The Bible & Its Influence" treats other religions too fairly, even comparing Genesis to other Creation myths. That is, the "fact" that The King James Bible (compulsory for the NCBCPS course) is the One True Way is missing from the more liberal curriculum. (While you're there, check out the Links page.) www.bibleinschools.net/sdm.asp?pg=nud

From The Eagle Forum of Georgia: Legislation has been introduced to allow Bible courses in public schools to counteract all that humanistic garbage students get. Humanist teachings are in all required courses, but the Bible would be an elective class. Thankfully, the importance of using the Bible to get a well-rounded education has surfaced once again....

This session, Senator Tommie Williams scooped up last year's S.B. 79 about elective courses the state would fund and added a time-honored, court-tested Bible course from the National Council on Bible Curriculum. That curriculum has been used for over a decade and is now in 320 school districts scattered across 37 states where 1,150 high schools use the Bible as their textbook. Currently, four school districts in our neighboring state of Alabama use it....

The state board of education, most likely, would suggest the Bible in History and Literature curriculum from the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools and would provide a curriculum guide for teachers.
www.georgiaeagle.org/?where=articles&ID=442

The Texas Freedom Network has published an study skewering the NCBCPS curriculum as badly written extreme Fundamentalist trash: www.tfn.org/religiousfreedom/biblecurriculum/execsummary/

Wonder which text will be chosen in Georgia? Personally, I think Public Schools have more urgent priorities than Bible classes. Yes, the Bible is used in literature--so cite its influence while discussing the relevant works. I would prefer a class in comparative religion, if any.

Georgians: These courses need NOT be offered in all school districts. Do some work locally. If you want other religion classes taught, or want to change state-wide policy, organize & make some noise! That is the only way you will be heard.

[cap]

53. actually it could divide the fundies

because which Bible to be used is going to be a big deal.... Catholics have their own version ... there is a special little cross in the book which says that it has been approved. I'm not sure fundamentalists will want their kids taught with the Catholic version.

Each little sect has their own preferred version. I think we should take another tack and insist that every Bible be equally represented! I think throw this whole thing into sectarian squabbling and let it sink under its own weight. Hopefully someone in the Georgia Senate will ask the question: Which Bible?

[Bridget Burke]

58. The text for the more liberal course, "The Bible & Its Influence"

Use quotations from various versions of the Bible. It's designed to apply to all Christians, including Catholic & Orthodox. And Jewish scholars were involved--after all, they wrote the first books. The course might even be useful to "None of the Above."

The other course uses The King James Version as the heart of the curriculum. And it is designed to appeal to the Fundamentalist Protestants, only.

Let's see which curriculum Georgia picks.

[mitchum]

63. I'm sure that the Georgia redneck peckerwoods are going to insist...

upon the New International Version. It seems to be the fundy's favorite telling of their strange fairy tales. Maybe because it's written on a fifth grade level?

[The Traveler]

54. I am considering filing suit for equal time.

Other religions also deserve to be supported by my public school system. I am thinking it might be time to sue for the right, also, to provide seperate courses in the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Zoroasterism, Paganism, Wicca (they are different), Satanism (another legally recognized religion) ... you get the idea. Equal time. Equal resources.

Things like this make me embarassed for my state. Jeeze. Good thing for these goons there aren't any real Southern Baptists left ... the state teaching religion? Not exactly consistent with traditional Southern Baptist beliefs, as they were explained to me in my youth.

No wonder the schools here are crashing.

[raccoon]

56. Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be taught, too,

if the Bible is.

It will be available next week.

[Bridget Burke]

60. Then DO IT!

These courses only get on the curriculum because of pressure from a vocal subset of the public. However, each district is not required to offer them. Surely, you can speak out locally.

Yes, the Southern Baptists formerly avoided meddling with politics. Partly because that could lead to politicians meddling with their church. Many Protestant denominations suffered under an Established Church in the past & want to avoid the situation. The unholy congress between the SBC & Right Wing Republicans began here in Texas.

[Bariztr]

61. They have...

their madras now we can have ours.

[fshrink]

65. Yeah. We need more religion. nt

[fshrink]

66. And another thing:

151 to 7. That's the ratio of courageous and honest people. It's about 5 %, regardless of the state or the issue. That's what we have to ward off dictatorship.