French Self-Proclaimed Racism Rising

[Township75]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060321/ap_on_re_eu/france_racism;_ylt=A86.I0IQBCBE330BpAlvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

PARIS - Some 30 percent of French people consider themselves at least somewhat racist, according to a report submitted to the government Tuesday, prompting concerns that racism is becoming socially acceptable.


The figure was up from 25 percent a year ago, according to an annual poll on France's attitudes toward racism commissioned by the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights.

The poll took on extra significance this year, following riots in depressed suburbs between police and youths from largely immigrant families. It also comes amid heightened concerns about anti-Semitism in France after the brutal kidnapping and killing of a young Jewish man south of Paris in January.

The human rights commission expressed alarm at the "lifting of a taboo" against racist inclinations, and noted an "important drop" in the overall sensitivity to racist issues.

[sui generis]

1. Different kind of "racism" though

The nuance here is that the influx of cheap labor has displaced some of France's workforce, and the savings that employers realized by hiring cheaper foreigners DOES NOT "trickle down" into local economies. You can't buy a loaf of french bread with trickle down.

Generous immigration policies encourage a shift in the cultural profile too - all of a sudden in a country that has largely been relatively secular for the last century, obscure islamic religious customs have to be observed, no cartoons of the prophet, and a rise again in sectarianism.

In America the issue with racism was xenophobia. In Europe, in some cases, the sentiment is that the foreign culture is moving the culture backwards, so in many minds it's "culturalism", not "racism", and it's justified.

I don't personally agree with that attitude, but it is understandable that cultures resist change, especially change that seems to be towards violence, fundamentalism and poorer standards of living.

[Bassic]

2. What do you mean it doesen't trickle down?

Why do you hate America and it's economical genius? If we say trickle down works, then it works dammit Those damn frogs must have surrendered the money to other people! :sarcasm:

Edit: I use the word frog with no guilt, as I am one myself :D

[Bacchus39]

3. I don't see the distinction at all

Europe has its share of xenophobia too. the US has dealt with immigration throughout our history with an influx of a variety of cultures. Immigration in Europe has been a much more recent phenomenon and they are struggling with it.

Also, if I am not mistaken Spain, Portugal, England, France, and other European countries perpetuated racism through the slave trade.

[sui generis]

4. well there is a distinction

nobody is looking at historical context in their day to day lives. They're looking at what they perceive the threats to their own status quo is.

When they can't even get a job digging ditches they look to blame they perceive is the obvious. When people who are underpaid for digging ditches live in cultural enclaves (ghettos) and riot and burn cars and beat up the infidel, it plays into those fears. Europe of all places has a much bigger reason to despise religion in government - over thousand years of religious wars have proven that. Small wonder that extremism in religion breeds contempt of culture.

Europe as a general rule is not racist in the American sense of "racism" - but it does face a changing ethnic and religious culture and they're not comfortable with that. To be sure, there are ugly extremists in EVERY culture, but they aren't the norm.

[fedsron2us]

5. Share of xenophobia ?

I think that is putting it mildly. Europe has a been rent by religious and ethnic hatreds for hundreds of years. It is the norm not something that has suddenly sprung up because of recent mass immigration. Millions of people have died there in the past century. Many of its towns have been reduced to rubble at least once and sometimes twice in the same period. Some states and peoples such as those of East Prussia have simply been wiped off the map. Anyone who moves to Europe because they think it is a 'safe' place to live is obviously not familiar with the history of the continent.

[Bacchus39]

6. yeah, and the response was every little ethnic group has their

own country. I certainly don't disagree with you.

I still fail to see the distinction between "their" racism and "ours" which the other poster tries to maintain. but I gotta run.

[sui generis]

7. oh fucking bullshit

edited for civility, believe it or not.

I grew up in Germany, with relatives in Austria, France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Turkey. I really get tired of hearing brits bash the mainland. It's just so common to bash somebody else to make yourself feel superior.

The fact is you are generalizing and it is inappropriate - if you want a Euro bashing thread do it somewhere else. It's clearly not a very popular one here.

My personal experience of Europe is vastly different, and my grandfather was sent to Dachau twice, the second time with my gay 14 year old would-be uncle who died there in a "medical experiment".

Nobody has exclusive ownership of racism, but we're not talking about historical contexts. It's over simplifying to claim that people in Europe are racists against people from Eastern Europe because they have darker hair. Jews aren't a "race" - if you're planning on pulling that old saw out, and as you likely know, unlike America, people don't run around and ask you what religion you are upon being introduced.

People look down on poverty and the cultures they associate with it, the world over. When you have poor (formerly) immigrant workers from southern Italy or Poland or Turkey with odd cultural customs or ways of dressing or just clear poverty competing for jobs, living on the dole, creating the perception of crime ridden communities, it's not "racism" that generates the negative reaction. It's no different than a chic Londoner turning up his snoot at a rural rube from Aberdeenshire; you wouldn't call that racism either.

[fedsron2us]

8. Well you seem to have misunderstood my point

I do not think that Europeans are more 'racist' than anybody else on the planet. Nor do I think that Britain is somehow different from its neighbours. The UK has a history of religious and ethnic conflicts that can match anything that has occurred on the continent. Having family members that come from both sides of the divide in Ireland means that I am all too acutely aware of the consequences of that situation. Britain has also participated in all the major European wars that have occurred in the past five hundred years and has waged these conflicts as ruthlessly as any of its opponents. All this merely reinforces my point that the history of this part of the world is fraught with conflict that has all too often spilled over into bloodshed on an appalling scale. Anyone who grew up in Germany must be aware of the terrible consequences of the failure to resolve ancient disputes peacefully. The fate of the inhabitants of Pomerania, Silesia and East Prussia in 1945 surely bears witness to that fact.

Peace.

[sui generis]

11. sorry for my colorfulness

I think it wasn't your reply so much as Bacchus' that got under my skin -

The OP appeared to be driving at an entirely different point though, and I believe that most people who we would call culturally xenophobic believe they are justified based on what they think they know today, and not any historical context. While in the past christians may have thought jews ate babies on the sabbath and transubstantialists thought consubstantialists made great kindling for public bonfires, today they're less likely to look at the fine points of religious mythologies than they are to associate an entire culture with poverty (and therefore crime), or to associate a fundamentalist doctrine with violent extremism.

It is those kinds of associations that are inescapable, and of course coupled with the fact that only bad news usually makes the news, it is also self reinforcing.

I think Americans generally tend to think of racism only in one narrow context, but modern discomfort with disenfranchised muslim youth burning cars and shops is probably justified, and with cultures that traditionally view women as property is somewhat justified if only the worst aspects of those cultures ever make the news. There is prejudice and discrimination, certainly, and without it certain forms of poverty would be less likely to exist, but to call it "racism" in the American sense of the word misses the point.

-sui

[Odin2005]

9. I would better describe it as Civilizational Jingoism, not racism.

"My western values are better than your islamic values" basically. It's a reaction against muslim immigrants, IIRC. Expect a lot more of this in Europe in the future. It's the whole clash of civilizations thing.

[KevinJH87]

10. a different, but still unacceptable racism

I think that this racism is also a bit different than the racism we are used to seeing in the United States. I think that it is mostly a resentment between cultures rather than hate. Of course, this is unacceptable because it is still racism.

"The CSA polling agency interviewed 1,000 people nationwide by telephone in mid-November — during the suburban riots — and in mid-February."

This polling done during mid-November could be considerably skewed with the emotions during that time. Still no excuse, but just a thought.

It might be interesting to see whether a proportionate amount of immigrants were polled and how they responded.


First post,
Kevin

[sui generis]

12. welcome to DU Kevin!

many happy posts!

:toast:

[KevinJH87]

13. thanks!

Thanks!

I have been monitoring the site for a long time but I have finally decided to get in on the action.