Mood hardens against Afghan convert

[ButterflyBlood]

Increasing international pressure over the case of Christian convert Abdul Rahman is forcing the Afghan government to play a careful balancing act between its Western allies and religious conservatives at home.

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge.

"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website.

<...>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4841334.stm

The bold parts are my emphasis. Try to read that together without laughing! Islam is a religion of peace, only we kill anyone who doesn't share our beliefs. But we're really tolerant because we give you a choice of reverting or dying, rather than just killing you outright.

How many more times is Bush going to tell us this is a religion of peace before hanging out at his ranch with his Saudi buddy who beheads women who drive cars?

[sharp_stick]

1. The prophet muhammad can

kiss my ass. I'm drawing a picture of the scuzzball as we speak. I really really hate fundie assholes.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. Leave the Prophet Mohammad out of this, please

It would be as pretencious for those of us who support Mr. Rahman's right to his religious beliefs to assume what the Prophet would say as it is for those who would put this man to death to do likewise.

It is certainly hypocrisy to call Isalm a religion of tolerance and then seek to kill a man for embracing another faith.

[saigon68]

92. embracing

Bush Kisses Abdullah

[DemoTex]

95. Thanks Saigon, old Bud!

I needed to see that kiss again today. Spinxx has regular at $2.49. Petrol Lovers. I'd hate to see what they do behind closed doors. Remember the name of the war early on? Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL). Changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF).

Mac

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dflprincess]

22. You can't blame the Prophet any more than you can blame Jesus

for what others do in their names. I have a mental image of Jesus and Mohammad commiserating together over what some of their "followers" do.

[WinkyDink]

26. One certainly CAN blame TPM, if the words reported above are HIS

in the Quran.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

70. I think JC and Muhammed

play golf together in heaven.

[0007]

86. .....and pitched horseshoes together between the harps and the singers.

[WhiteTara]

45. then draw a picture of fundie assholes

not the the one whose words were taken out of context and used for their own purposes.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eagler]

69. Everyone should have this attitude for them- then maybe

they'd go away.

[blonndee]

98. You've offended me and I'm not a wacko, a Christian, a Muslim, or

even a believer. I'm an atheist. But where the fuck do you get off, wishing physical harm and death to those who follow the Muslim or Christian faiths, even "fanatic"ally?

You can certainly make an argument for your last comment about the harm "fanatics" have wrought, but isn't it rather hypocritical for you to wish THEM destruction in turn? Something is wrong with you to wish such violence upon any human being.

[monktonman]

2. This is news why???

This story is splashed all of the place and I still cant figure out how this is important.
Some dumb - ass did some dumb thing and I care why??

[sharp_stick]

5. Possibly because

in one of our wars to "free" an oppressed population the now "free" population wants to execute some guy (the dumb ass in your response) because he doesn't want to be part of the religion in the new "free" country.

Makes better news than the latest goings on with Paris Hilton IMO but hey watch whatever you want.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. . . . and why don't you care?

We're talking about fundamental human rights. We're talking about a one's right to worship God as he sees fit. The state has no business in this matter. The death penalty for this "crime" is certainly excessive, but any sanction would be wrong. Abdul Rahman is guilty of no crime.

[monktonman]

12. ok lets see...

how many muslims have been fucked over in the US well before 911?
Does this make news????
Here we have a "dumb ass" in a supposed "free" country ( believe it?) who drops Allah for Jesus
and our newspapers go fucking nuts over it. so what.
I think the truth is that some people are trying to bring the debate back to the idea that all muslims hate and want to kill christians.
If " dumb ass" converted to Buddhism does anyone here really believe it would have made the news?
For fuck sake - DUers spend so much time convincing themselves how media savvy they are and then fall for every fucking red herring that comes down the pipe.
JEEEEEEEEEEZ!

[stray cat]

23. How many muslims do we kill in the electric chair for their faith?

or what if we started killing atheists for the nonreligious perspective.

[movonne]

51. If things keep going as they are, this too will happen here to atheists &

gays, muslims, etc...

[FiveGoodMen]

59. Case in point:

US Senate Candidate Wants Death Penalty for Homosexuals


http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4590031

[smirkymonkey]

89. Now there's a raging closet case!

All of this is about projection - Fundamentalists are extremely insecure underneath all their religious posturing. Just as homophobes are insecure about their "masculinity" or sexuality. Hatred is born of fear.

[ButterflyBlood]

94. OK, so one nutcase runs in a primary and it's a sign of a trend

Plus he's running as a Democrat. I'm sure this is a common Democratic belief.

a few elections ago in Illinois, a white supremecist challenged an incumbent Democratic congressman. Therefore we can conclude that white supremecism is a growing trend in the US. LaRouchites also frequently run in Democratic primaries, so by this logic we can conclude that Lyndon LaRouche's views are becoming mainstream.

Sure, the US has many problems right now, particularly in the issue of gay rights, but it's certainly not remotely on the level of your typical Islamic country.

[Jack Rabbit]

24. Response

You must have gone fishing this morning. That's quite a catch of red herring you brought in.

(H)ow many (M)uslims have been fucked over in the US well before 911? Does this make news????

Do two wrongs make a right? Also, when did the US government compel an American Muslim to abandon his faith? To my knowledge, that has never happened.

Here we have a "dumb ass" in a supposed "free" country ( believe it?) who drops Allah for Jesus and our newspapers go fucking nuts over it. so what(?)

Of course, I don't believe Afghanistan is a free country. It is demonstrating in this case that it is not. Somebody's human rights are being violated. That's so what.

I think the truth is that some people are trying to bring the debate back to the idea that all (M)uslims hate and want to kill (C)hristians.

Some people will use it that way and they are wrong to do so. It would be just as wrong to sanction a person in any way, let alone kill him, if he abandoned Christianity for Islam or Paganism to become a Parsee. What faith is being abandoned and what faith is being embraced is not the issue here. The issue here is whether or not it is the state's business.

If " dumb ass" converted to Buddhism does anyone here really believe it would have made the news?

Would it be of any less concern if the media ignored it? Would it be any less a human rights violation? It would be just as much a human rights violation if Mr. Rahman were embracing Buddhism or seeking to become an initiate at Eleusus as it is that he is embracing some other faith. It would be just as much a human rights violation if the media ignored it.

DUers spend so much time convincing themselves how media savvy they are and then fall for every fucking red herring that comes down the pipe.

To summarize, you are trying to make the issue the media coverage of the story and the fact that the man has embraced Christianity rather than some other faith. Those, my good man, are red herrings. The real issue is Mr. Rahman's right to choose his own way of worshiping God free of government sanction.

[WinkyDink]

27. I don't know; how many?

Talking out of yer butt.

[DrGonzoLives]

58. So, then

The U.S. has done bad things (not including executing people because of religious faith, at least not for a few hundred years), therefore, we shouldn't have anything to say about this at all.

The point is not what would or would not make the news, the point is that Bush's nation-building exercise is now being shown as a failure in the mainstream media as well.

Some DUers spend so much time talking about how progressive they are only to toss away concern for their fellow man when it's over something they think is stupid.

JEEEEEEEEEEZ!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

71. I think you might be missing the forest for the trees here

to me the issue is that we went to war to take the Taliban out and build a nation and give birth to democracy. Some democracy, huh? You appear to see it as something that takes away from our message, but I see it in the opposite way. I think it illustrates our message. We haven't been able to accomplish what we promised.

[atreides1]

16. This is the law of the Land.

Who decided what "fundamental human rights" were, I wasn't on that board. Are these the same people that get to tell me what "family values" are?

This was not unexpected, when the Afghans were allowed to create their own constitution they were very open about their belief in Sharia law. And very few in the halls of power or those on the religious right raised questions about it.

They were all too busy patting themselves on the back for what a great job they did by getting rid of the Taliban.

So now, now they're concerned, and yet when an Afghan woman was stoned for adultery last year, I don't recall this administration or their religious allies creating much of a ruckus.

By the way under Afghan law he is guilty of a crime, just because it doesn't jive with what we believe doesn't make it any less of a crime to the Afghan people.

I don't believe that someone who uses marijuana for medical reasons is guilty of a crime, unfortunately the Feds and some states disagree with my belief, and they still charge them and lock them up.

This is what happens when you nation build without using the brains God gave gnat!!!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Exactly.

Hideous, horrible, unfortunate, and none of our business - other than to point out its hideous horrible and unfortunate nature.

[DBoon]

34. It is our business as long as American troops are there.

Unfortunately, wwe are responsible for this government, as the occupying power.

And the lead-up to our occupation included bold statements about restoring liberty to a people oppressed by the Taliban. All with the intent of getting domestic buy-in for the invasion.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. So should we overthrow this regime and put a new one in?

I'm amazed. Have we learned nothing?

[Jack Rabbit]

40. There are sanctions that can be imposed well short of that, sir

They should be considered.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Like economic sanctions?

Those are much better. They just kill people slowly and mercilessly. They worked very well in Iraq, and have had great effect in Iran. However as Afghanistan is one of the poorest places on earth, the effect of such sanctions would be rather quick. I'm fairly sure that the Taliban, which is suffering quite a resurgence in local support, would welcome sanctions imposed by western conquering armies on the people of Afghanistan.

But I wonder why we don't get so upset about Saudi Arabia with its hideous laws that rival those of Afghanistan. Shouldn't we be demanding that they get some sanctions too? Too much oil to worry about a little sharia over there I suppose.

[Jack Rabbit]

43. You raise a good point

I wonder why we don't get so upset about Saudi Arabia with its hideous laws that rival those of Afghanistan. Shouldn't we be demanding that they get some sanctions too?

I'm not saying we shouldn't get upset about that. I am upset about that.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. Let me restate the obvious.

I think that of course killing some poor bastard for his beliefs is a horror, and of course I support expressing our outrage and aiding the people within the country who are trying to change things, I don't see how the usual harsh measures of military and economic sanctions, the prescription that the west has been imposing on various societies that it finds bad for the last few decades, will do any good in this situation.

[DBoon]

47. We are a colonial power in Afghanistan.

We "own" this government. We put it in place with military force. We maintain this regime with military force. They are our creature. We are responsible for this government.

We have to live with the consequence of having invaded and conquered this country. This is not Sudan or Mali. This is a government the USA created by force, and a government that is maintained by US military force.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. and it is held together with duct tape and chewing gum.

So if we push it, guess what, it will fall completely apart. This incident signifies just what a failure our Afghan program has been. We've done little or nothing for this nation we conquered as we had a much sexier project over in oil rich Iraq that got all of our attention. Not that the Iraqi project is going any better, but it certainly gets more attention and a lot more of our money.

What the various conquering armies have found after marching into Afghanistan is that it is one thing to defeat the tribes and it is quite another to rule them. 300 years of various european nations relearning the same afghani lesson.

[Jack Rabbit]

39. Speaking of the Taliban . . .

. . . this is exactly the sort of thing they would do. It gave them a very bad name.

If we wanted this sort of thing, we could have left them in power.

[brentspeak]

99. Well, if we look at this as human beings, and not as Americans

or Afghans, or Christians or Muslims, the execution of someone, anyone, simply for having thoughts that don't correspond to the majority should be an issue that becomes everybody's business.

[maxsolomon]

9. ahh, dude, surely you jest

our blood & treasure were spent in afganistan to drive out the taliban & establish ANOTHER THEOCRACY? and this one has Shariah as part of the constitution. that's why 'amurka cain't do ennything abowtit'.

perhaps if we'd left iraq alone & concentrated on fixing afganistan we could have brought them out of the fucking dark ages they have retreated to. they weren't in the dark ages before the soviet invasion.

a 'soft war', marked by massive public works projects like water, energy, agriculture, & educational efforts, involving 100s of 1000s of americans NOT in the military, probably would have cost a 10th of what we've poured down the open sewer that is iraq.

this is but a symptom of what the stubborn ignorance & mental laziness of the appointed, not elected, president of this country hath wrought.

plus, we love jesus, and so does this guy, so it resonates with amurkins even more than the buddha statues.

[monktonman]

14. thank you....

"plus, we love jesus, and so does this guy, so it resonates with amurkins even more than the buddha statues."

[Teaser]

13. What did he do that was dumb, chuckles?

Decide he believed something other than he was told?

[monktonman]

18. replace dumbass with nice gentleman

still doesnt make a difference

[DetroitProle]

36. ok, then what about "some dumb thing"

What did he do that was dumb? How was it dumb? What would make you care about this man's rights as a human being, then?

[DetroitProle]

35. how could this be any more important?

This is certainly more important than partisan politics.
Some dumb thing? Freedom of concience is a dumb thing?
Freedom of religion/concience is one of the founding principals of the enlightenment and classical liberalism.
Great individuals dedicated their lives to that no man should be punished for what he believes or does not believe.
Here we are in the 21st century, in a government that was set-up by our own western democracy, and someone is being punished for just that.
As corrupt as the United States is, as far from our principals as we have drifted, we have not executed anyone for the sole reason of their religious persuasion. Even here at the DU, thank G-d we have a myriad of beliefs, and none of us live in real fear of our lives because of it. It is something that some of us apparently take for granted.
This is a question of fundamental human rights. If all people of the world simply respected each others' own personal beliefs, we would be very close to, if not have, world peace.

[Divine Discontent]

44. are you all there, or just a bad day?

comprehension levels are very important in society. you don't see how evil this behavior is? wanting to kill a man for saying he believes one thing, and no longer believes another is as bad as ordering a killing of a gay man, a lesbian, a white, black, asian, hispanic, christian, muslim, buddhist, jewish, scientologist, disney-hater, etc...

I find this action by the "DEMOCRACY" of Afghanistan to be the exact reason we're wasting a TRILLION dollars trying to give these people democracy. If anything we should not trade or purchase off them, and tell them, when they can give all rights to all people (like we're struggling with, but we're almost there), then we'll include them in the league of civilized nations. As of right now, this country is far from civilized, and for that reason, you should care that another human may be killed 100% for what they believe in their 'self'. Yet you choose to mock that? If you say yes, I question your liberal heart, again, I just hope you're having a bad day, because TODAY, you sound like a right wing republican.

[On the Road]

62. It's News Because Our Government

has a newly-created client state that is imposing the death penalty for religious beliefs. Karzai is basically a puppet ruler. The US is the power behind the throne. It is unthinkable that the US would a party to a Sharia death sentence for religious belief, especially Christianity.

If it were the Taliban doing it, it would be less important because they were not a US client state. If the convert were a Bahai, it would be less important because the Bush administration (and the US population) presumably care more about Christianity. It's particularly compelling because of the history of Christian martyrs.

What I want to know is: was this person converted by any of the fundamentalist missionaries who went to Afghanistan in the wake of the Bush invasion? This is pretty nasty fallout from that.

[Coventina]

65. IIRC, the guy converted some time ago after working with a Christian

humanitiarian aid agency.

[On the Road]

67. Wow, What a Mess for the Bush Administration

It shows what limited control they have over the country we're supposed to be occupying. And it puts them in league not only with Muslims, which most Americans can accept, but with Christian-killing Muslim fundamentalists.

This situation is absolutely designed to drive Bush supporters over the edge.

Personally, as much as I dislike intervention, Bush HAS to send an armed unit to rescue this person. He can not be allowed to die under there circumstances.

[daleo]

64. It is news because it undercuts one justification for the war

Namely, the justification that Bush invaded Afghanistan to bring western notions of freedom and democracy them. Obviously, killing someone for converting makes a mockery of that, and even hard-line Bush supporters can't ignore it.

[brentspeak]

97. I don't know...maybe because a man's life is at stake?

Maybe that's a reason why you should care.

Oh yeah -- like everyone else has already asked of you: What was the "dumb thing" this guy did?

[neuvocat]

100. Well here's the thing:

Afghanistan is supposed to be this huge victory of religious freedom for Bush-presumably so that Christianity can flourish around other parts of the globe. We now know that this is a farce. The Christians are getting upset with him over not being more outspoken about it (we've just had Condi Rice sheepishly give some sort of "I'll put in a call to see what they can do" kind of response).

[MrPrax]

4. Should be a good battle...

maybe after they kill this guy, they might find some Bhuddist temples that need renovating...

But we all know that oil profits trump morality and ethics, so I figure the guy is toast...

[MADem]

8. Well, like anything else, Sharia law can be subject to interpretation

It is derived from, but is not a word-for-word implementation of the Quran, but the people who have interest in this issue sort of muddle that aspect. The degree to which Sharia is implemented depends on the country--some do "Sharia Lite" and others, like Saudi Arabia, use the heavy version.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this guy's lawyers don't advance the argument that, since the guy is no longer a Muslim, but a Christian (a person of the book, as it were), that Sharia doesn't apply to him. It's a winning argument, and avoids the pesky requirement that he be declared insane to keep living.

Old article here, but a pretty good primer on Sharia: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,777972,00.html

What is sharia?
The word sharia means "the path to a watering hole". It denotes an Islamic way of life that is more than a system of criminal justice. Sharia is a religious code for living, in the same way that the Bible offers a moral system for Christians.

It is adopted by most Muslims to a greater or lesser degree as a matter of personal conscience, but it can also be formally instituted as law by certain states and enforced by the courts. Many Islamic countries have adopted elements of sharia law, governing areas such as inheritance, banking and contract law.

What does sharia decree?

Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly, which in some countries is interpreted as women taking the veil and the sexes being segregated.

"Sharia governs the lives of people in ways which are not governed by the law," says Lynn Welchman, director of the Centre for Islamic and Middle Eastern Law. "Over 50 countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Conference, and you can expect there will be some form of compliance with sharia - either in people's personal lives or enforced through the courts by the state. A lot of states in the Middle East are taking more elements of sharia into their state laws."

What are Hadd offences?

Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences are not universally adopted as law in Islamic countries. ...

[Teaser]

15. Since the Khilifah (caliphate) has long since disappeared

its arguable that any implementation of shariah law is illegitimate. None of these states represent the legitimate successor to Mohammed.

[SIU_Blue]

19. you make some good points

there are, however, two issues with this argument

1.) I doubt the guy has a lawyer. Even if he does, you can be sure he won't get what we would call a fair trial.

2.)The state will say that sharia law is the law of the state, and so it is applicable to all citixens of the state no matter what religion they are.

This is a sad, sad situation. Religious fundamentalists are dangerous, regardless of the religion.

[monktonman]

21. especially ones that run newspaper articles

[MADem]

30. There is precedent for the argument

In Nigeria, for example (though they later said, either live with it, or leave!):

The authorities have given assurances that Sharia will not apply to non-Muslims, but many Christians have already abandoned Kano city, which has a history of religious violence.

In Indonesia, too, the issue has been raised:

President Megawati Soekarnoputri’s insistence on the ideals of pluralism and tolerance as prerequisites for peace, stability and prosperity has given rise to a number of positive developments. The country's two largest Muslim organizations, the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) and Muhammadiyah, which together claim more than 60m members, earlier this year agreed to join forces to fight religious extremism. They were also responsible for retaining the original text of the 1945 Constitution's Article 29 on religion, when the inclusion of sharia law was mooted within the context of a certain number of amendments to the Constitution. Consequently, the motion was rejected in the summer on the grounds that its adoption would contradict the spirit of article 29, which upholds the plurality of the nation....

In Egypt, the marriage law is different for Muslims and Coptic Christians.

All I am saying is that this is a way out for the Afghan government, if they are smart enough to take it.


BREAKING--Andrea Mitchell is on TV now, saying they've come to some sort of accord, but the details are not clear, yet...

[liam_laddie]

61. The "us" and "them" syndrome...again

Sadly, transgressions of basic freedoms seem to be baked into the behavioral DNA of homo
sapiens, Spanish Inquisition being one of the more well-known; I predict the Iraq war will be viewed
as equally unjust and evil. Those brilliant neo-cons (with their PhD's and expensive think-tanks)
in policy-making positions must have NO concept of the culture, beliefs, traditions, of the Islamic
world. I believe the resident Arabists and other career people in State, AID, etc. do and did have
expert knowledge of Islamic influence in the Mid- and Far East . But the eejits at the top are blind,
tunnel-vision idealogues, driven only by their own agenda. Proves one can be "bright" and stupid
(or wrong) at the same time...

Sharia law should have been anticipated. How do you think the foaming-mouth righties will
react when the tradition of "mut'a" in Shia and Sunni practice becomes more well-known?
Mut'a is the practice of "temporary marriage" which a non-muslim might view as a kind of
mullah-sanctioned adultery. I'm not sure how widespread this is today; it allows a male to
make temporary marriages, liasons, actually, for periods of a day to whatever. It allows males
to sexually partake of women without guilt, because the omams, mullahs, etc. are paid a fee
to approve the arrangement. Sounds almost like a bribe...I hope a practicing Muslim will
comment on this and correct any misconceptions I may have.

On top of the Afghani death sentence for switching teams, "mut'a" will blow the brains off
those reich-wing Dobson-Perkins clones. Couldn't happen to a more deserving crowd.
There is a good reference at <http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/> a circa 1974 MA
dissertation by one Sachiko Murata (Japanese?) while a grad student at Tehran University
(during the Pahlevi reign) Lots of detail...a long read. "Fiimaan illaah" y'all.

[MADem]

68. Mut'a was quite common the last time I was out that way

It's often a nice way of denying a visit to a prostitute!

Part of the problem at State and Defense is that a lot of the career "Mid-East Desk" types were shoved into a corner, or a closet, and told to type and file, while the political appointees crafted policy without knowledge. It's still a problem, FWIW. They were cut off from access to intel reports, FBIS transcripts, all the crap you need to do analysis.

[6th Borough]

96. None of these examples fits the situation.

These examples, as well as the notion of using Christianity as an escape clause, ignore the fact the he converted away from Islam.

Under strictly interpreted Sharia law, being a Christian who was never a Muslim is much, much different than rejecting Islam and converting to Christianity (or any other religion).

[no_hypocrisy]

10. Afghani government probably won't interfere if a death

sentence is handed down to prove to its citizens that it is independent of the invading liberators, i.e., the United States and friends.

IMO, if this had been handled quietly vs. Condi with her hands akimbo demanding that the convert be forgiven a death sentence, perhaps he would have been allowed to immigrate.

[ButterflyBlood]

11. The guy has already been offered refugee status but has said he won't leav

He's willing to remain even if it means becoming a martyr.

[cantstandbush]

17. Jesus said, "if your right eye offends you, pluck it out."

What now?

[ButterflyBlood]

20. it's a metaphor

It basically means to avoid things that could lead you to sin.

You don't really think the "turn the other cheek" thing is about slapping, do you?

[cantstandbush]

63. It's not about what I believe. It's about how scripture is use and misused

And that goes for any religion.

[OregonBlue]

25. Why aren't Dems pointing out what a wonderful government

Bushco have given us in Afghanistan. Worlds largest producer of opium and sharia law to boot. We're really winning their hearts and minds!

[The Deacon]

50. The problem is...

...that when you promote the idea that people have the right to choose the government they live under you have to also admit that their choice of government might not be to your liking. This is very much different from Saudi Arabia (where the Ibn Saud were chosen by the British to rule.) This is the government the Afghan people chose. I am likewise amused by the Bushis continuing muttering about Iran's influence in Iraq due to the Shiite majority - didn't ANYONE point out to Rumsfeld that the Sunni minority had been repressing the Shiite majority for decades, and that the Shiite majority had a longstanding relationship (going back centuries) with their co-religionists in Iran?

[OregonBlue]

90. Of course you are correct however, had we done the job right. Had we

stayed there and rebuilt the country instead of forcing our way into Iraq, things might be much much better there now. Had we turned the country around before we went chasing after Sadaam, the Taliban might not be as powerful as they are now!!

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Why do we think our laws apply to other societies?

First lets get this out of the way: I am horrified that it seems that this poor bastard is going to be executed for changing his mind about which tooth fairy version he worships.

But I am mystified by the posters here who seem to think that our legal system applies to Afghanistan, or France, or anyplace other than the USA. It doesn't. The Afghanis have their own legal system, as dubious as it is, and their version of 'due process' is being followed with it appears one hideous and horrible outcome.

So do you all think we ought to overthrow this Afghani government as it does not conform to our standards? How many Afghans ought we to kill to impose our view of a just society on them?

[MADem]

31. It has nothing to do with US, it contravenes the United Nations

Universal Declaration on Human Rights, Article 18, specifically.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Indeed it does.

So how many Afghanis do you think we ought to kill to force them to comply with the UDHR, which by the way we don't comply with?

[MADem]

33. I think we should let the UN take the lead, not us

...but that said, apparently the State Department's leaning has resulted in an accord, per Andrea Mitchell on MSNBC--no details yet.

But killing afghanis? That's the MONEY...the PEOPLE are Afghans!!!! :P

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Well I on a separate issue

I used to play on a volleyball team a long time ago, right after the troubles started in afghanistan in the early 80's, with an afghani who thought he was an afghani, but you are probably right, he wasn't what he thought he was. Pretty good volleyball player though.

Ought we not comply with the UDHR before we go off condemning others for their misbehaviors and demanding that the UN do something about it?

[MADem]

41. Well, that's a separate issue entirely, of course we SHOULD

...but I wouldn't hold my breath. Look who's in charge, after all...

Afghanis for everyone! http://www.afghanistans.com/Currency/One-Two-Afghani.htm

[onenote]

52. how many afghans should we allow the afghans to kill before intervening

I assume you feel the same way about Germany and the Holocaust...no one's business but the Germans?

onenote

[Warren Stupidity]

55. There are of course limits.

You would be hard put to convince me that the situation in Afghanistan is comparable to Germany circa 1941. The humanitarian exception to national sovereignty is a tough issue. Certainly it can be used or abused to good or evil. All I am saying here is that 1) we cannot apply our legal system on other nations; and 2) there are no easy answers to what to do about countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, China, etc. etc. etc. (or even in some respects the good old USofA), that appear to have lost the recipe when it comes to human rights.

[Psephos]

93. I wish we had applied our legal system in Rwanda

What I hear you saying is that once a line is drawn on a map establishing international borders, then what happens on the other side of that line is no one else's business. Absolute sovereignty is an antique from old days, and one that has led to oceans of blood spilled. We are all humans, all citizens of Earth first. A country that does not respect basic human rights, such as freedom from execution for believing in a different god, compromises its sovereignty.

I'm not putting you down, Warren - I'm asking you instead to think about why you are such a respecter of sovereignty. Countries are made-up things, bounded by imaginary lines. They're nothing more than a set of agreements. Giving absolute and instinctive respect to sovereignty is like respecting a marriage even if the husband beats the wife. The act of beating renders the marriage null. The act of a civil court deciding to kill someone because they worship a different god renders that court's sovereignty null, and by extension, that of the government that supports it. I felt that same way strongly about the USSR after reading Solzhenitsyn. I feel that strongly about North Korea right now, where Fearless Leader drinks himself to oblivion on high-priced booze each night while starvation haunts the populace, and concentration slave-labor camps suck the life out of nameless thousands.

There is no country on Earth that doesn't have an army of skeletons rattling in its closet. The idea that we in America can't condemn this Afghani abomination because we aren't perfect is an abdication, nothing less.

My opinions, nothing more, nothing less, nothing personal.

Peace.

[Kagemusha]

46. Hey, they're saying if he converts they won't just kill him anyway.

See? They're not gonna hold a grudge. It could be worse. They could just kill him even if he does come back to Islam because, well, they just don't like what he did and want to deter others.

Not saying I agree with this interpretation but, I don't think that this Ansarullah Mawlafizada person thinks what he said is in any way a contradiction.

[AlCzervik]

53. Karzai is going to have some problems if this guy gets released

and the guy will as well if he doesn't leave the county right away.

[gauguin57]

54. I just got a CNN breaking news email: he's gonna be released soon

" An Afghan man threatened with execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity is expected "to be released in the coming days," an official says."

[951-Riverside]

57. He was forced to plead mentally incompetent to stand trial, Right?

[closeupready]

60. I didn't know there were so many Islamic theologists in the world

who can pontificate about what Islam is about and what the Koran says, etc.

I'll know who to ask next time I have any questions. :sarcasm:

[mainegreen]

66. Nobody expects the Afghani inquisition!

[Disturbed]

85. "was this person converted by any

of the fundamentalist missionaries who went to Afghanistan in the wake of the Bush invasion?"

According to what I read he has been a Christian for 15 years.

I found it astonishing that if he was deemed "insane" that he would be released and not executed.

[rodeodance]

72. Outcry rises over Afghan Christian convert (International pressure)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060324/ts_nm/religion_afghan_dc&printer=1;_ylt=AjhVGKb1KrJ209I.H7n1LeRg.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Outcry rises over Afghan Christian convert

By Sayed Salahuddin 56 minutes ago

Growing international pressure on Afghanistan to respect the religious freedom of a Christian convert was met in Afghanistan on Friday by calls for the man to be executed for denying Islam.

The controversy over Abdur Rahman, 40, whose trial is due to begin next week, threatens to drive a wedge between Afghanistan and Western countries that are ensuring its security and bankrolling its development.

But President Hamid Karzai cannot ignore conservative proponents of Islamic law or appear to bow too readily to outside pressure.

Religious and political figures meeting at a Kabul hotel, including former prime minister Ahmad Shah Ahmadzai and Shi'ite cleric Asif Mohsenia who commanded anti-Soviet forces in the 1980s, said the government should ensure that Islamic law is enforced......

[rodeodance]

73. says some countries may take their troops out (not US saying this)

President George W. Bush has vowed to use U.S. leverage over Afghanistan.

Several other countries with troops in Afghanistan, including Canada, Italy, Germany and Australia, have voiced concern. Some foreign critics have urged that their troops be withdrawn.

Canada said Thursday Karzai had pledged that Rahman would not be executed. A presidential spokesman in Kabul declined to comment, but a government minister said a solution could be found.

[The Magistrate]

74. The Solution, Ma'am

Is to recognize the human right to freedom of conscience, and drop the idea apostasy is a capital offense.

[sui generis]

75. oh they're going to execute him, no doubt. This is a test.

And if we fail it, as we surely will, we will be the ones painted as intolerant and dishonest about what democracy means.

Another failing of our administration: democracy alone is the idea of a child. Democracy with human rights is the idea of an adult.

The adults in charge apparently didn't know that. You cannot promote a successful democracy that doesn't have underlying values of human decency and human rights that it holds above the practice of freedom of religion.

It's not a democracy if the freedoms of the minority are not protected from the majority.

But President Dumbya & Co. had been better than C students, they would know that.

[eagler]

76. We need to get the hell out of there.

nt

[tocqueville]

77. see thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=745387&mesg_id=745387

obviously this is a no-win situation.

[rodeodance]

81. says we have 18.000 troops in the counry.

...For many Afghans, though, it is just another rallying point to step up pressure for a broader alliance against the presence of foreign forces in the country, while for the Bush administration and its allies it is an opportunity to rethink their position on Afghanistan.

The United States has more than 18,000 troops in the country, while the UN-mandated International Security Assistance Force numbers about the same. Germany and Italy have already hinted they may reassess military support for Afghanistan. And German Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble suggested that Afghanistan could lose aid or technical support for reconstruction because of the case. The US begun reducing its troop strength in Afghanistan this year and has indicated that it will continue to do so.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HC25Df02.html

[rodeodance]

78. I think of the irony-A Pres. who constantly talks of freedom, the fast tha

t have lost over 200 troops in afgan, money down a hole, Laura and condi talk of voting freedom for women---and now this--there Constitution Disallowing Freedom of Religion--and a citizen is about to be executed over this issue (unless there is some devine intervention)!!!!!! Damm. what a victory!

[rodeodance]

79. if nothing else this makes people award of the Constitution which I think

many think is simlilar to ours.

[oneold1-4u]

80. Just accept it!

They can behead him for accepting another life not islam, on worldwide TV, and the world will see islam for what it really is! Muslims are like dumb sheep that will die of thirst standing next to a small stream because it is running water.
There are probably many who would change their lives if they did not have to face death. The US sure bungled in Afghanistan and will do the same in Iraq and once again in Iran.
The rabid islamic is much like the rabid xtian that can't understand the word "FREE"!

[rodeodance]

82. HotShots talking about this.

[rodeodance]

83. We have blown it in both cases--as it Islamic law is written into both

constitutions. says Tucker. He is right.

[rodeodance]

84. Ron Reasgan---liberty and freedom do not mean the same thing to all

peoples--even as Bush says it is a 'universal' value.

[jbnow]

101. The Taliban was very bad

in this regard, the country is still "bad" in that way and many others.

It is in Iraq we will be leaving people in much worse shape...going from a secular nation to an oppressed fundamentalist rule.

I know it was bad there for Saddam's enemies but right now anyone can be in danger. Women for sure will be losing so much freedom in the way they were able to live, get education, work, dress...everything. (Not to mention civil war)

They could not be that dumb not to know how bad we would make things going in. Or were they that dumb.

We can say who are we to judge another country's choices and laws...but this is very bad. We can hardly shrug off horrible changes that we wrought in Iraq.

If there is karma who would this heavy load be on? The decision makers or the whole country whose name they did it in.

I am so damn sorry for them, for us (the affected military and families), for the future. We were never perfect or close to it, but who could believe America could fall so far and fast and how many we would take down with us.

To whom do we send our regrets?

[IndianaGreen]

87. Women are still forced to wear the burqa in Afghanistan!

No one seemed to care that Afghan women and girls are as oppressed today as they were under the Taliban. It wasn't until a Christian convert came into the picture that people took notice.

[VegasWolf]

88. Gee, I wonder which religion is the very bestest and goodest!!! nt

[Boojatta]

91. Are children in Afghanistan told about this before they officially become

Muslims so that they can put off the decision until after they have given considerable thought to the matter?