60% Of Windows Vista Code To Be Rewritten

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

Up to 60% of the code in the new consumer version of Microsoft new Vista operating system is set to be rewritten as the Company "scrambles" to fix internal problems a Microsoft insider has confirmed to SHN.

In an effort to meet a dealine of the 2007 CES show in Las Vegas Microsoft has pulled programmers from the highly succesful Xbox team to help resolve many problems associated with entertainment and media centre functionality inside the OS. The team are also working closely with engineers from the Intel Viiv team. and it is now expected that the next version of Viiv could be delayed to line up with the launch of the consumer version of Vista at the 2007 CES Show in Las Vegas.

One of the key components of the consumer version of Vista is the Media Centre code. This will be an optional package in the same way that Microsoft currently sell a Professional and Home version of XP. With Vista there will not be a seperate Media Centre SKU.

Microsoft has also admitted that it has major problems in it's Windows division and has has immediatly initiated a total restructure of the division, a move that comes after a costly delay in rolling out its Vista program.

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Computing/Platforms?Article=/Computing/Platforms/R7G5G6U4

[merwin]

1. I hightly doubt that 60% of it is going to be rewritten by 2007

That is a load of BS.

If they mean 60% of the code will be different than XP, then I could see that being true.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Or...

It's gonna be really, really late.

[AndyTiedye]

14. It ALREADY IS Really, Really, Late

[Born Free]

48. A Monopoly doesn't have to worry about being late

they can release it whenever they are ready , their customers will wait till hell freezes over becasue as far as they are concerned it is the only choice. That is the beauty of having a monopoly...

[Orsino]

51. Like wizards, they always arrive...

...precisely when they mean to.

[AndyTiedye]

57. But They Don't Have a Monopoly Anymore

[Tab]

29. Maybe they mean 60% of the new code

Which still isn't trivial, but I don't see 60% of all of Windows being rewritten.

[Canuckistanian]

72. They probably have to make a minor change to 60% of modules

I can't see 60% of the whole concept changing.

[Prophet 451]

86. 60% won't be rewritten

They'll just put out a broken OS as usual.

[electropop]

2. Maybe they should start thinking about writing clean code

in the first place. I would think that'd be cheaper.

They could start by initiating a CMMI or ISO9000 effort, to stop running the company on chaos theory.

[susanna]

41. Thank you for that...

I swear they are positively committed to chaos and the resulting bloatware. You'd think with their profits they would have enough for a division to re-write clean, but evidently not. :-(

I run both Mac and Windoze. You can tell by my shorthand where my preference is...

[Brundle_Fly]

50. agreed

I run both as well, but when there is work to be done I pick my dual G5 mac over my 3.2 PV everytime.

Fighting off bloat and viruses, and ad-ware is too time consuming, the only time my PC sees the internet is to upgrade itself on windows update, and even that still puts ad-ware on my system....the microsoft website!

something big has to change for Vista to be all it has been promised as, my mac is a workhorse, I wish my windows box was.

[regnaD kciN]

4. If they're shooting for 2007 CES...

...that doesn't only mean that "consumer" versions of Vista will miss the holiday season, it means that releases to manufacturers will do the same -- which means a pretty bleak 4Q 2006 for the tech sector.

[lindisfarne]

5. But wasn't Vista a 100% rewrite of XP code?...and XP a 100% rewrite

of Windows 2000 code? ... and Windows 2000 a 100% rewrite of Windows Millenium? and Windows Millenium a 100% rewrite of Windows 98? They still haven't gotten it right?

[Renew Deal]

12. I don't think any of them were a 100% rewrite.

Though I think Black Comb might be, but that's way off.

[high density]

26. Nah...

Windows 2000's heritage includes Windows NT, not Windows ME. None of them were "100% rewrites," since it wouldn't be economical to reinvent the wheel every few years. It does sound, though, like Microsoft is having big issues with Vista. To be honest I don't really care since XP does everything I need it to do and will probably be in service for at least three more years.

[lindisfarne]

38. Windows 98 SE did everything I needed -- XP only seems to slow me down!

(ended up getting XP with a laptop -- sorry Mac-ites but compatibility issues forced me!)

[agincourt]

55. Heck, I'd still use it ,

if it ran on an over 2.2 gig processor. Win 98 divides by zero if it uses a processor over 2.2 gig. I still use it on my older stuff, the driver support is just slow.

[niceypoo]

90. Windows 98se was a total piece of crap

It used the ancient DOS "memory bucket" means of memory management in which memory locations used by different programs overlapped thus the endless freezing and blue screens. it also had to be rebooted all the time because of memory leaks. Good riddance!

[TheBaldyMan]

92. I used 98 until very recently and in it's final incarnation it was stable

it only took then until 2004 to fix it. By then W2K and XP had hit the streets. W2K is OK but I refuse to let XP anywhere near my machine ( and I've been offered a FREE XP Pro package ) . Figure that one out Mr. Gates - you can't give XP away. I'd rather have Linux, it's free, it's more secure and if it doesn't work you can fix it because it's OSS.

[niceypoo]

88. Actually.....

XP IS windows 2000 with bells and whistles. Windows 2000 is NT 5 with bells and whistles. Millennium was win98 2nd edition with bells and whistles, which was a fixed version of windows 95. Supposedly vista is rewritten from the ground up. Ill believe it when I see it.

[jmowreader]

93. Wasn't the sequence actually...

NT 1 and NT 2, which as everyone knows from dealing with Microsoft's crap were actually the public betas...so the first "real" version of Windows NT was...

NT 3

which became...

NT 4

which was supposed to become...

NT 5

but because it took so damn long to get NT 5 out they stole a naming scheme Adobe once tried with Illustrator and named it...

Windows 2000

which, with a jellybean-style user interface similar to Mac OS X, became...

Windows XP

And now we're looking at this Windows Vista which does super wonderful and magical things like let you track Bush-administration malfeasance without ever launching an application over the OS. I mean, that's nice and all, but doesn't everyone already have a copy of MS Office to track that?

[BlueJazz]

6. One of my Friends (who is an Assembly Language nut) tells me...

..that the biggest hurdle, on writing a new system, is making sure all (or most of)
the old programs that would operate on 98, ME, XP ...also work on Vista.

[Drifter]

67. Indeed ...

backwords compatibility is the biggest obsticle. It has been forever.

Cheers
Drifter

[niallmac]

7. I think they could re write 60% of the code if they used Macs!

:nopity:

[Nomad559]

8. Not true

http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/24/rewrite-of-windows-vista-underway-hogwash

http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/24/where-the-heck-is-scoble

http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Vista_Code_Changes/1143232877

:)

[Maestro]

32. Ah you beat me to it.

:)

[bemildred]

9. Yeah, that real-timey stuff is tricky.

You gotta do more than make sure you have a cool object model worked out in excruciating detail.

[eppur_se_muova]

10. But worth the wait, right? *snark* nt

[VegasWolf]

11. Well, to save costs the "if conditions" were all outsourced to India, the

"for loops" were all written in Pakistan, the "assignment statements" were outsourced to China, and the overall design was done in Seattle!

[LearnedHand]

40. *Snort*

ROTFL

[benburch]

13. THIS is why you NEED a Mac and OSX.

You can have a very capable Macintosh with 17" display, memory, disk, ethernet, modem, software, keyboard, and the clearly superior OS-X operating system for less than $700 if you buy refurbished with new warantee from Apple's online store.

[VegasWolf]

15. Yes, but I like to be able to buy application programs. nt

[benburch]

16. Which ones would you miss?

Macs tend to get the best applications.

[VegasWolf]

17. 99% of them!!! nt

[benburch]

18. Name what you use?

I'm betting that there are mac versions or superior mac equivalents.

[VegasWolf]

23. I am just yanking your chain. I hired in with IBM in the first days of

PC and have been in Comp Sci ever since my thesis in Artificial Intelligence. I am expert enough to handle the problems that Windows throws at me and I wonder how newbies ever get the damn thing running. I have programmed on all platforms and my personal choice has always been
Win32 variants. Win32 had full blown thread support long before Unix did. Unix has always had great file system features. I've programmed on Mac and worked with Mac cross-compilers but never really cared much for it personally.

The software that I use now is all financial analysis, heavy math number crunching. I try to use mostly Open Source code so that I can dink with it to do what I want.

I just like to tease Mac people.

:toast:

[benburch]

27. Virtually all OSS applications run on Macs.

But you already knew that! :-)

[zreosumgame]

44. kinda, sorta

but so dammed sllllllloooooooooooowwwwwww, finally they are switching to Intel chips, but the first time they orphaned me and then sat there grinning about the (at the time) $1500+ they were going to overcharge me for 'upgrading' I went and got an IBM clone and never looked back.

[benburch]

65. Slowly?

Not in my experience! I get great performance from the OSS applications I use. My 233 MHz G3 machine runs the same OSS applications as my 300 MHz P-II Linux box at about the same speed.

[InsultComicDog]

78. I'm using Win XP 64

:bounce:

[DS1]

30. The software change, assuming all of the software was available

in mac versions, would cost thousands more.

[benburch]

33. You use that much software?

I pay for all of the software I use, and don't have $1000 worth of it.

Of course I use a lot of open source software.

I use GIMP for image editing.

I use AbiWord for word processing.

What do you use that costs thousands???

[DS1]

34. Photoshop, Flash, Dreamweaver, 3DS Max

at some point in time when I can afford it, Maya.

[benburch]

35. Why dreamweaver?

Html isn't all that hard to code.

[DS1]

36. No, it's not, but there's much more to it than merely coding html

like the PHP scripting, javascripting, site-wide changes in a flash, check-in/check-out, visual db connectivity, css previews, etc

[Occulus]

61. Every game I own, for one.

I'm a gamer, and Apple is not not not a gaming system.

Win all the way!

[jim3775]

62. Yep, I'm a gamer too

I'm no fan of windows but it is the standard platform for games and the new DirectX10 from microsoft that will be included in vista will be a huge jump forward in graphics technology.

A mac is essentially worthless to me because of this.

[niceypoo]

91. Out of 6000 computers where I work.....

we have maybe 40 macs. I hate their interface. They are rock solid stable though since going unix! Almost none of my fave software will run on them though. If I wanted that platform I would just go with linux.

[Renew Deal]

22. How much for a new mac

with a pretty 17" screen? Macs are not perfect and Apple hasn't had a eprfect track record with OS's. Remember OS 8? It was a mess. The reason why there aren't that many mac viruses is that there aren't many macs.

[benburch]

37. No, the reason there are none is because...

...they are nearly impossible to code.

I invite you to try.

[Art_from_Ark]

83. OS 8.1 was not a mess

It was actually quite nice, for the times-- about 10 years ago. It was 8.5 and 8.6 that were troublesome, and that was mostly because they represented a transition from the old Mac-style ports to the USB ports. OS 9 appeared shortly thereafter and took care of most of the 8.5 and 8.6 bugs, especially in its final form, 9.2.2. But OSX (after the first bugs were taken care of) has been extremely stable and reliable; I use XP at work (company computer), and Mac 10.3.9 at home, and there's no way I would willingly switch from 10.3 to XP.

[stlsaxman]

87. i remember that debacle. it was truly a mess...

it was no way to run a railroad. after OS 9.2.2 life was good. Apple learned from the mistake. looks like MS never will. I'm not a hacker/coder/programmer and i need to use a computer for... well- everything. give me one that works that i don't need to "work". Apple has done that.

[high density]

28. Need? Not really.

Use whatever you'd like, but I like to play games from time to time and Windows XP clearly has an advantage in this area (e.g. huge software base and high power hardware at a decent value.) Those who have no need for games would probably get by on running, well, just about any modern OS that works on their hardware.

[leQ]

54. i'm one of those who did the switch, and i'm sorry i did

i have rebooted this mac more times than i can count. there's a lot of good things about macs especially when it comes to producing music and such, but the stablility stinks.

[benburch]

58. Really? That is the exact opposite of my experience!

I only reboot my macs, which are on 24/7 in server and audio recorder use, when there is a system upgrade, or when I need to unplug things.

What applications do you run?

What model do you own?

And what peripherals are you using other than those that come standard?

I'll try to help you figure out the source of the instability.

[Art_from_Ark]

84. You might also want to ask

What OS is being run
Whether file-sharing software is being run
How much RAM memory the poster has
If the OS is 10.2 or above, whether disk permissions have ever been repaired

[BattyDem]

19. It doesn't matter how much code they rewrite ...

we'll still have to download patches and service packs within three days of Vista's release. :eyes:

[benburch]

20. That is true of any OS, though.

The question is how bad the problems are that are fixed by those patches, and how many more problems remain unfixed.

[BattyDem]

25. I know, but with Microsoft ...

you install the patch and a week later, you're told you need a patch for the patch, LOL! :crazy:

[arikara]

21. I used to test software for an internet company

and I sure wouldn't want to be those people working on that project. Management always let the bean counters pick the deadlines then they expect all the programmers/testers to work 100 hr weeks to roll it out on time (with no extra pay I might add...). It never works right because everything is cobbled together, there isn't enough time to program it properly or test it properly. Invariably some huge problems surface and guess who gets the blame?

[Renew Deal]

24. Vista has taken a very long time.

XP was released and fully functional October 2001. Vista was on the slate prior to that. It will be late and missing many features. I wonder if Microsoft was trying to be too technically ambitious or if it's a management problem.

[juliana24]

43. And itll still be buggy when it hits the stores too.

Not buying it, no way !

[alfredo]

75. They are trying to keep backward compatibility with old

software and hardware, but still, your six year old Compaq may not have what it takes to run Vista.

Read this for more info on MS's problems.

http://tinyurl.com/f66re

[Maestro]

31. For what it is worth

This guy says the story is untrue. http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/24/where-the-heck-is-scoble/ But it is obvious that there are problems.

[Triana]

39. One word: Linux (n/t)

[Born Free]

49. I have a dream..

that one day linux programs will play with windows programs on the same system without any fancy dual boots or emulators. The fine people at Codeweavers are working on it but it is still a way in the future. I do have Quicken for Windows that runs well on my linux system, that is about the only "made for windows" program I really like to have.

[ret5hd]

68. look at VMWare...

i run Windows (98, XP pro) FLAWLESSLY in a window on a linux box... all at the same time. Just flip to a screen, wham i'm in Win98...flip to another screen, wham i'm in XP pro...flip back to the main desktop, wham, i'm back in linux. All the operating systems are connected using a virtual network, enabling me to pass files back and forth between them, or run code on each of them for testing.

it works by setting up a "virtual machine" for each OS. You open the vmware application, and a screen shows a list of each of your loaded OS's. You choose one, click "boot this machine", and a window on your desktop opens that looks exactly like your screen does when you are booting your computer.

You can go to each OS in full-screen mode (can't tell the difference between it and a native boot of that OS) or ru the OS in a "window" on your desktop.

an excellent setup.

[Ouabache]

42. I bet they would find it easier if they dropped all the DRM crap

they are undoubtedly trying to embed in it.

Guess what, I have downloaded tons of pre-DRM software to use in the future. Screw the media companies I say. If I own a cd, they are certainly NOT going to keep me from ripping it to my hard drive in a format I want it in.

[RoyGBiv]

89. Bingo!!!

That's why this is a problem with the media center edition. The tricky part of that is the draconian DRM.

[skids]

45. Heh. Heheheh.

Heheheheheh. Hah. Haw. HAW! HAWHAWHAWHAWHAWHAW!

My bet: the rewrite won't do a spot of good. It'll still be bloated and full of holes.

Though I guess at least pulling in the game jockeys does give the project a fighting chance, as opposed to the stuffed shirts that usually work on stuff like that.

[Sgent]

46. Longhorn was supposed to be released in '03

The already took the potentially coolest OS feature out (WinFS), and game and app support continues to increase for Mac & Linux.

I probably will never own a copy unless it is for free (on a new computer).

[moondust]

47. Take as long as you want, Bill.

If it's anything, it's superfluous. You have until the end of time.

[customerserviceguy]

52. Trust me

"Vista", or whatever the fuck MS is going to call it, is something you need not hold your breath waiting for. I plan to resist it with everything I've got. It's going to be tremendous bloatware, already stories are pouring out in the geek press, talking about how it chokes even multigigahertz processors. It's just really a way for MS to spy on everyone, just like AOHell already does.

There's a buttload of money in selling information about how many people go from site A to site B to site C, etc. MS just wants a piece of that action, and this is their way of getting it. The "digital rights management" component of it is enough to cause all of us to reject it.

[0007]

53. cough cough......

[VegasWolf]

56. I'm perfectly happy with XP SP2. It will be a long time before I switch

to anything else.

[lovuian]

59. Could it have been written by outsourced India programmers ... LOL!!!

or perhaps the Chineese who want Bill Gates to fail...

Microsoft you get what you pay for...

[jim3775]

60. This story is not true

http://digg.com/software/MS%3A_No_Code_Changes_In_Vista

MS has fired back at a SmartHouse article that was dugg earlier, calling it "speculation with no demonstrable basis in fact." No Xbox developers have gone to the Windows division, and coding is all but done. Maybe SH smelled the sweet success of blogosphere love for their iPhone article, and got a bit too risky in who they trust for their sources?

[catmandu57]

63. I ran 98 until last month

Then I switched to xp, I'm certain that by the time I get around to installing a new os that the kinks will have been worked out.
I'm not the kind of person who has to have the newest thing available, hell I drive a twenty two year old subaru.

[benburch]

66. You must live where they don't use road salt. nt

[Uncle Roy]

69. I'm still running Win 95. The road salt up here hasn't bothered it much.

So far, anyway, but then New England winters aren't what they used to be. No vendors support Win95 anymore (try getting a DVD authoring package for this crate!), but then virusses (viri?) don't support it either.

On the other hand, my relatively new Subauru is only 7 years old. It suffers from "feature bloat" and only gives me 28 mpg. The old one gave me 300K pretty good miles before really large pieces started to fall off, and it was still giving me 35 mpg the day I drove it into the crusher.

There's something to be said for living 10 years behind the times...

[Yavin4]

64. Outsourcing At Work?

Sometimes, you get what you pay for.

[alfredo]

70. A fish rots from the head From EE Times

The employees speak out


http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=183702787


and from the source

http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2006/03/vista-2007-fire-leadership-now.html
Vista 2007. Fire the leadership now!

I was upset at missing the back-to-school market. Now we're missing the holiday sales market. All of those laptops and PCs are going to have XP on it. What percentage will upgrade to Vista? Well, I guess that's the little dream that I need to give up on. Vista's deployment is going to come from people buying CPUs with the OS pre-installed, not dancing down the CompUSA aisle as they clutch that boxed version of Vista to their loving chest. So not only did we miss last year's opportunity, we're missing this year's opportunity, too. With the convergence of high-tech media, this holiday season would have been an explosive nodal point to get Vista out for a compounded effect.



I would love to read this blog when the Jan 2007 date passes without a Vista release. I have little faith that a non beta quality OS will be released on that date.

[DubyaSux]

71. Big deal....

...if Apple owned the marketshare Microsoft does and had to support the amount of configurations Windows users use, the MAC OS would be just as buggy and under constant attack by lowlifes writing virus code.

This entire comparison is bogus because Microsoft and Apple play by a different set of rules.

[Solon]

73. Then how do you explain Linux?

Linux actually has GREATER support for hardware than Windows XP, out of the box at least, the only thing lacking are 3rd party drivers for certain hardware, but neither Microsoft nor Kernel.org are completely responsible for that to begin with. I install Linux on my system, and oddly enough, everthing outside of my Nvidia card which doesn't have 3D acceleration until I install the driver, just works, a clean install of Windows XP boots into VGA mode(640x480 16 color), with no sound card support and not even my network working, pain in the ass, to say the least. Plus you can't claim the "security through obscurity" argument either, for while Windows has a Lock on the desktop, on the server end, that is far from the truth. 60% or more of all computers that host internet sites are Linux OSes with Apache as the hosting software, prime for attack from viruses, but I don't really hear of that too much, do you?

[benburch]

74. ALL of the White Rose servers are Debian Linux.

MUCH cheaper than Windows, which would give me no extra features I would use, and for which I would have a hard time finding equivalent utilities EVEN if I were expecting to pay handsomely for them.

[alfredo]

76. I am going to install Debian on this computer when I get

my new Intel Mac this year. I will run Linux if I don't have to deal with RPM's.


apt-get and forget.

[benburch]

77. Current macs run Linux, too.

I used Yellow Dog Linux on my 7100/100. I have a Performa 6320 here that I am considering making into a Linux box.

[alfredo]

79. I have Yellow Dog on an older iMac, but I have let a friend use it

for the past two years, so I am without Linux at home.

Most of what I liked Linux for I can run on OSX. I use Inkscape for text for posters. I use GIMP some when Photoshop is not needed. With Debian or YDL I can explore apps like Scribus, Quanta, and other apps that don't have good ports yet.

[banana republican]

80. I use Windoz; Linux, and a Mac.

I like Linux best.

I only use Linux for surfing since it appears to be the safest. (I'm not a geek, but wouldn't mind advice)

Unfortunately some of the software I need only operates on WindoZ.

[benburch]

81. Yes, Linux is safest for surfing.

OSX runs a close second, with Windows a distant third.

[bpilgrim]

82. me too... though, I like mac the best =)

well for a workstation... i still like linux the best for my server os ;->



peace

[951-Riverside]

85. The Story is BS.

Microsoft slammed an article by Australian technology publication Smart House on Friday, calling it "speculation." The retort came as a result of a story that cited sources within the company saying as much as 60 percent of Vista code needs to be rewritten.

The article claimed that the Redmond company had to transfer developers from the Xbox team to the Windows division in order to ensure the Vista makes it to a CES 2007 release. Much of the article centered on issues with the Media Center and multimedia functionality, and claimed Intel was assisting Microsoft in rushing out the new code.

Relatively unknown outside Australia before this week, Smart House made waves in the blogosphere and throughout the Apple enthusiast community with a story on Tuesday. In that article, the publication cited an unnamed BenQ executive as saying among Taiwanese manufacturers, the existence of an Apple "iPhone" is "common knowledge."

"This is speculation with no demonstrable basis in fact," a Microsoft spokesperson told BetaNews on Friday. "There aren't any Xbox developers moving over to the Windows Vista team," he said, disputing the core premise of the story.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Vista_Code_Changes/1143232877

[RoyGBiv]

94. How is that authorative?

I'm just questioning the paramenters of what constitutes "BS." I mean, is the original story wrong, or is it simply exaggerated? Do we know based only on what MS spokesmen say? What else is Microsoft going to say? "Yeah, we need to re-write 60% of our code, but the (new and improved) target date for release will be met anyway"? Microsoft has a long and clear history of denying these rumors and leaks, which later have a nasty habit of turning out to be at least based on a rather large kernel of truth. A few months ago, the rumor was that the release of Vista would be delayed, and MS denied, denied, denied. Funny what happened. I suspect the difference here is between the use of phrases like "will be rewritten" and "needs to be rewritten" and also on different definitions of what "Vista" actually is. (Several version will exist.) Outside analysts have pretty much come to the conclusion already that whatever Vista is or will be, it needs to be re-thought and re-written in some very fundamental ways, based simply on the very open history of problems that are associated with an OS that was originally intended to be on the market three years ago and has over time lost the vast majority of its supposedly new, innovative features.

In any case, I'm not saying I buy the story as written for Smarthouse. MS will most certainly not re-write 60% of the code between now and January. They probably couldn't even if they wanted to, not and provide a product that is even partially stable. OTOH, insiders with MS that are increasingly growing annoyed with the direction of the company have done a fairly decent job of at least giving us an idea of what's going on with these things. They told us that a shakeup was coming, and it has. They told us Longhorn, as originally conceived, was being changed, and it was. They told us Vista would be delayed, and guess what.

Thankfully, I don't care all that much except in the context of what the impending release may do to the hardware market, and that actually might be good for me, driving down the prices of mid-range stuff I can use perfectly well to do everything Vista says it can do and more but without all the DRM and other crap MS is loading into this beast.