British schools to assist pregnant girls

[deadparrot]

LONDON, March 24 (UPI) -- New guidelines allow British schools to help pupils get the morning-after pill, pregnancy tests and abortions without parents' knowledge.

Statistics recently released revealed that thousands of 13-year-old girls have been handed the morning-after pill by health service staff without their parents' permission, the Daily Mail reported.

Family campaigners in Britain condemned the guidance from the Department for Education and the Department of Health, calling it "disgraceful."

The plans were unveiled a day after Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown slashed taxes on condoms and other contraceptive products as part of a drive to improve sexual health.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060324-053701-1663r

[NYC Liberal]

1. Can you imagine if that happened here?

The Fundies' heads would explode - probably literally!

[mimitabby]

80. yeah, it would be really nice!

how many teenaged girls lives wouldn't get messed up?!

[wickerwoman]

2. Good for them.

We need to realize that adulthood is not an arbitrary number. If you're old enough to get pregnant, you're old enough to work through your options on you own, like an adult, without pressure from anyone else.

[Erika]

3. Thank you for coming out and saying that

A female who is menstruating and capable of childbirth is also capable of making her own decisions on her own reproductive rights.

[TheWraith]

7. So if a 13-year old girl wants to have a baby, you're okay with that?

It works both ways, not just the pro-choice way. To make a blanket statement that anyone who's capable of reproducing is automatically a completely independent adult is to ignore the responsibility that REAL adults have to educate, guide--and yes, restrain--their young from behaving in an inappropriate manner. Kids this young shouldn't even be having sex, let alone having children of their own, and it behooves those responsible to try and curb such things.

For my two cents, I'd much rather see these schools handing out condoms and birth control pills than morning after pills. A little prevention would be a much better message to send than "Go out, get laid, and we'll fix you up afterwards." That kind of thing breeds recklessness, and morning after pills don't protect against STDs.

[wickerwoman]

8. Nobody's saying they shouldn't have education and guidance.

Simply that it is ultimately their decision to make. Do you think parents should be able to force their child to bring a baby to term simply because they don't believe in abortion? Should they be able to force a girl who wants to keep the baby to have an abortion? Or course not. At some point a child takes responsibility for their own medical and health decisions.

Obviously a 13 year old isn't a completely independant adult. But a pregnant 13 year old is definitely entitled to a measure of physical autonomy.

The schools *are* handing out birth control and condoms. The UK has one of the lower teen pregnancy rates in the world. They are also being realistic about the fact that sometimes protection fails and they are throwing out a lifeline to desperate kids in a bad situation. That's guidance- not forcing them to confess to their parents that they are sexually active and providing a neutral adult whom they can confide in.

[TheWraith]

21. When, precisely, do the child's decisions trump the parents'?

Is it solely the 13-year old's decision if, say, she wants to go out and have unprotected sex? Get drunk? Go home with older men? Where, exactly, is the line where the childs decisions override the parents' responsibilities? A parent's task should be to prevent things like this from happening, not stand idly by and say well, I'm entitled to an opinion, but it's not binding or anything.

And for some of these kids, confessing to their parents might be just what they need. 13 is too young to be having sex, and it's certainly too young for anyone to make any kind of reasonably informed decision as to their reproductive capabilities. These are kids, and this sort of thing shouldn't even be an issue to them.

[wickerwoman]

23. When the parent's decision can do irreperable physical or psychological

damage to the child.

You avoided my question so I'll say it again. Should parents have a right to force their child to abort a pregnancy when the child wants to keep the baby? Should parents have the right to force their child to carry to term and give up for adoption a child he or she doesn't want and can't take care of?

Pregnancy and abortion both carry substantial physical risks and potential for permanent damage and that damage will be born by the child, not by the parents. Also, many children do not live in happy Leave it to Beaver families where they can just ask mom and dad every time they get in a scrape. Young girls might be beaten, thrown out of the house, or otherwise endangered if their parents found out that they were sexually active. The child might also be the result of incest or rape. Even girls who don't come from abusive families might feel an enormous amount of shame attached to their behavior and could easily do something stupid to avoid having to tell their parents if they were unable to find a trustworthy, non-judgemental adult to confide in. Of course you love and want to protect your children, and maybe they aren't adults yet- but they are in a situation where they must make an adult decision and denying them the ability to do that (whether they are prepared or not) would have even more disasterous consequences than anything they could possibly choose for themselves.

By all means, monitor your kids and talk to them about sex and limit their friends- whatever it takes. But once the kid *is* pregnant, it's up to them.

[LostinVA]

27. I understand the core point you're making, and I agree

A child who's pregnant shouldn't have her parents make THE decision about her body... because, even if she is a minor, her rights should be her rights. Of course, we treat children like chattel in this country... it puzzles me. The solution? A mediator, a child psychologist, someone... but who? Everyone would fight over that...

[LisaL]

28. And giving 13 year olds "morning after" pills is the answer?

Are they going to give them abortion pills too? Recently several women in the US died after taking the abortion pills. Granted, it's a small number, and pills weren't administered according to the instructions, but shouldn't you know about it if your kid is having an abortion? If your little 13 year old could croak after taking these pills, shouldn't you at least have a right to participate in her decision?

[Bridget Burke]

42. RU-486 is "The Abortion Pill"

It's not the same as the "morning after" regimen.

[LisaL]

51. Did I say they were one and the same?

The teens are given morning after pills and access to abortion. Presumably access to abortion could include an abortion pill-at least I would think so.
And birth control pills aren't without risks either.

[bleedingheart]

63. as the mother of a young daugther I have to say that while I would

like to know...I would prefer that my child get guidance from someone...even a healthworker in the school...

Now I am raising my daughter to trust me and to come to me about any issue...BUT I know that reality is different and I would rather my daughter risk the morning after pill than kill herself outright out of fear of being in trouble....in fact I think that taking the morning after pill has fewer risks than a pregnancy at that age...

[RaRa]

61. But once the kid *is* pregnant, it's up to them.

Amen.

[Yupster]

79. I agree but

also think the parents should be informed.

Just to let all my friends here know. If you happen to ever find out that my kid who will soon be 13 years old is secretly having sex with an 18 year old down the block or a 30 year old down the block, I want to know about it. Please tell me.

How can I protect my kid if everyone knows he's doing something wrong and I am purposely kept in the dark about it.

[rmgarrette64]

65. Thank you

I'm coming in late, I realize, but wanted to give some thanks to TheWraith. I have nieces that age, and a daughter who is younger. They're not adults yet, and shouldn't be treated as though they are. Yes, 13 is too young for a child to have sex. If they have, and have gotten pregnant, it's time to ensure the parents get involved (and yes, usual disclaimers about having other options, such as a judge, in cases of abuse, etc.)

R. Garrett

[LisaL]

24. That's bullshit about UK having lowest teen pregnancy rates.

They obviously have a problem with teen pregnancy.
Otherwise they wouldn't be distributing morning after pills in middle schools.
From the original article
"Teenage pregnancies continue to rise despite a 40 million pound ($69.7 million) government campaign to reduce the problem. Sexually transmitted diseases are also reaching epidemic levels."
They have a problem that reached epidemic proportions, and they are obviously trying to figure out a way to fix it.

[Chimpeach]

57. Well said!

I couldn't agree more.

[Darth_Kitten]

13. Right, but still, having sex when you are 13.....

is a stupid, stupid idea. :( I never understood why kids just don't want to be kids. :(

Maybe I'm too old-school. :(

[saddemocrat]

16. You are kidding....

I know 10 year old girls who are menstruating...they aren't mature enough to make reproductive plans

I teach 20year old college women who are menstruating who aren't mature enough to plan out a single day...

Physical maturation of the body doesn't mean that the mind is mature....

[wickerwoman]

20. You're totally missing the point.

I started menstruating when I was ten. Was I old enough to be thrown out to the wolves? No. Was I old enough to care for a child if I had gotten pregnant? No, of course not.

But how would I have felt if I had gotten pregnant and my parents had forced me to either a.) abort a child I wanted or b.) carry to term a child I didn't. Requiring parental notification is just going to create more desperate girls who run away from home or douche with Drano or some other bizarre, extreme, desperate reaction to a situation that doesn't have to be the end of the world for everyone involved.

The point is that adulthood comes in stages, not all at once. It comes as a result of having problems posed for us which we learn how to overcome. It's not like you turn 18 and suddenly get a manual explaining how to be an adult. The point is that if you're old enough and have been through the experiences to reach a certain problem (unwanted pregnancy) then you are old enough to have the final decision on what to do with your own body without adults whom you trust and turn to for advice being legally required to rat on you to your parents.

[saddemocrat]

29. no

you're missing the point.

The schools are willing to provide abortions to 10 year old girls who get pregnant through rape, etc without parental notification. It sux that some parents might not respond appropriately, but don't take away my rights as a parent to be notified.

I can understand that young girls might be nervous/afraid to tell their parents, but this would be a serious disruption in the parent/child relationship.

Take it a step farther....there have been several deaths related to abortion. Can you imagine your 12 year old or...14 year old being given an abortion and then dying and you having no idea what the heck happened until after the fact?

[LostinVA]

34. That's right, it would suck -- and why should the parents' rights be

above the child's? No, I am not telling you you're an idiot or anything -- I'm being sincere. I think if a ten-year-old is pregnant, there's already been a severe disruption in the relationship. And, many parents wouldn't do the best or right thing by the child -- they'd do what THEY wanted to. And, that isn't fair. Their rights are not more important than the child's. The child needs medical care, therapy, counseling, etc. The schools in the UK will do all of that, and take the "emotional" out of it... many parents wouldn't do any of this, including making a reasoned decision without emotional factors involbed... because they couldn't.

The child dying meme has been used by many RWers to take away abortion rights and to pass parental notification laws... laws I am completely against. Not all families are alike -- and sometimes there are extremely good reasons for a child not to want her parents to know she's pregnant. These girls deserve the same rights as we adult women do.

I feel you are sincere about this, and indeed have a good relationship with your children... but that isn't the case for many people. This law protects those kids whose parents aren't as good as you... this law gives THEM a chance.

And, advocating burning down a school is a bit extreme. Violence solves nothing, and never has.

[LisaL]

36. UK is spending money but so far all that spending

seems to have led to the result opposite of what they are trying to achieve. Teen pregnancy rates are increasing, and STDs are on the rise. You know, a thinking person would realize that maybe something isn't working there, instead of blindly supporting it because it's a PC thing to do.

[Prophet 451]

75. No, something isn't working

but it's not the sex-ed. The problem isn't with the sex-ed, the problem is that we have a massive problem with alcohol and the young over here. I could be wrong but I'd be willing to wager that a significant portion of teenage girls who become pregnant do so because they were drunk when they had sex and of course, when you're hammered, things like contraception can slip your mind.

[Yupster]

82. When you're 13 lots of things

slip your mind whether you're drunk or not.

[saddemocrat]

39. I won't bend on this issue

A ten year old being pregnant isn't necessarily due to a disruption in the relationship between parent/child.

You are assuming that most parents would force their child to carry the baby to term...by allowing the child to receive treatment without consent you are taking away the rights of the parents.

If you are willing to put my rights as a parent on the bottom of the list, I fully expect for you to also pay for the upkeep of my child and her college education, etc. Why should I be financially and legally responsible for my child but then have no rights. I don't think so.

[LostinVA]

43. I didn't say anything that you say I did

I never said your rights should eb at the bottom of the list at all -- I said the child's rights shouldn't be superseded by the parents. Sometimes the parents' rights SHOULD be taken away -- saying that's not so is very unrealistic: child abuse, negligence, forcing a child to bear a abby to term, etal. Saying all that about paying for their upkeep is just silly. That has zero to do with the argument. No one has suggested you have no rights. In this country, parents have TOO many rights to force children to do things that destroy their mental and emotional and physical health. It's sickening.

I didn't say the majority of parents would force the child to bear a baby to term -- I said many. And I stand by that.

I also think that a ten-year-old being sexually active certainly is indicative of a disruption in the

Again, just because YOU would do the right thing doesn't mean many parents would.

You now, I'm tired of this. Enjoy arguing that children have fewer rights than adults with someone else. Have a nice morning.

I care about the kids, not the parents. Sorry. It takes a village to raise kids, because the people in their own family are often the ones the least suited to raise and nurture the child.

[saddemocrat]

46. whatever

A ten year old or young teen being raped is not indicative of any disruption in the relationship with the parents....a 14 year old who becomes sexually active and then gets pregnant may have made a poor choice, but it isn't necessarily because her parents have failed her.

I have never argued that children have fewer rights (ummm..hope YOU wake up and smell the coffee this morning!). I have argued that parents are the responsible parties for their children in every way imaginable...responsible for education/finances/medical care etc...and I'm sick of people pointing the finger of blame at parents at the same time that they erode the rights of responsible parents.

Take away the children of irresponsible parents and get the child the medical treatment...but leave my children to me.

It takes a village to raise a child, but I can assure you that most moms/dads are the best suited to raise their own children....the village provides support, community and help..it provides diversity and strength...it is not a replacement for the parents. Your arguments here clearly indicate that you think that most parents aren't suited for the job.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

69. i disagree

the village provides support, community and help..it provides diversity and strength...it is not a replacement for the parents.

You are right. it's a the replacement it can't be. But it's complementary. If you really expect to be involved in every aspect of life of your kid good luck in the teens. Even if you are the best parent of the world - it won't happen.

The best between parent and kid is THRUST. THRUST between parents/kid can't be prescrived at all. Thrust however cannot be prescribed by law in the way someone has to tell someone other. It's the way that someone may not pass information on.

Would it infract your doctor visits if he had to report criminal originated injuries (wounds, rape signs, diseases etc?)

Would you go to a therapist if he had to report you (to your employer, police, whomever) if certain conditions materialized?


While i understand that you want to be informed about your kid and i assume you are a loving caring parent some kids don't have that luck (i don't just mean criminal parents now primarly) but when angst comes in the way seeking help that has to be removed.

would you prefer your daughter seeking third party professional help OR your daughter not seeking help at all OR seeking unprofessional help a la backalley-abortion.

thrust can't be prescribed. Even if you feel you are entitled to you aren't.

Do you feel you are entitled to read your daughters diary? it is on another level just as intimate.

I'm just wondering (and disagreeing with you) :-)

You don't need such a law. Either the parents have established trust and their kids will tell them anyway, or they have not and impair the kid seeking help in a very difficult situation. just my 2c or for what it's woth 1c

greets NM

[LostinVA]

77. Nice post, NM

re: reading a child's diary. I know people who do that, who say they have a right to, so they know what their kid is up to. That's appalling to me -- what a horrible breach of someone's privacy. My SO's mom did that when she was a teen -- she's in her late 30's and still doesn't trust her mother with certain things. If your relationship with your kid is that closed off, I think some family counseling is in order. Seriously.

Again, children are your responsibility, but they aren't your chattel.

[Yupster]

81. If the child is being raped or abused by an older

neighborhood boy or relative, how is the parent to ever know about it, and stop it if the parent is purposely kept in the dark? The school gives the girl a morning after pill and the girl goes right back into the abusive situation that got her pregnant in the first place? That doesn't make sense to me.

A school knows the girl is having sex, gives the girl condoms and eventually a morning after pill. The mother of the girl is kept in the dark on purpose.

One day the girl runs away with and is killed by her 19 year old boyfriend. The mother is crushed but becomes incensed when she finds out the school has known this was going on for years and refused to warn her about it.

Nope, I think the parent has a right to know if their kid is doing something wrong and certainly has a right to know who is giving what medicines to her kid.

[rodeodance]

4. whow, I am impressed. The US mentality would shot this down good.

[silverweb]

5. Good!

:thumbsup:

[rodeodance]

6. "drive to improve sexual health."---yup--the Brits are wise.

..The plans were unveiled a day after Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown slashed taxes on condoms and other contraceptive products as part of a drive to improve sexual health.

[Stockholm]

10. Sane policies

WTG Britain!

[LisaL]

26. They got these plans because

the rates of STDs are reaching epidemic proportions. Whatever they had been doing so far seems to have achieved the opposite results of what they were trying to do. So, sorry, it seems to me they are not doing something right.

[Prophet 451]

76. You have a point

There is something we're not doing right: We're tolerating and, in some ways, encouraging a heavy drinking culture which rests most heavily on the young. By the way, I think "epidemic proportions" is pushing it, it's a problem certainly but I really doubt it qualifies as an "epidemic".

[Stargleamer]

9. I'd prefer it if they would give out condoms to 13-year old boys...

and teach both girls and boys that sexual intimacy doesn't have to revolve so exclusively around intercourse.

Why is it so often girls/women that have to be concerned about possible pregnancy and not boys/men?

[BooScout]

11. Over here (in the UK)

You cannot go into a public restroom (whether male or female) without having access to condoms. There's a condom machine in every public restroom and plastered on the front of the machine is information on STDs and responsiblity. The UK goes a hell of a lot further than America ever thought of going to promote sexual responsibilty.

[wakeme2008]

12. the US has not always been that crazy.

I remember when I was in the Army in Vietnam, next to the signout sheet for going in town was a box of condoms. Today I bet the Army would not do that for fear of the Fundies going crazy.

Ah a cruiseline story :) I was on a Holland American ship and went down to the hospital to get something and saw a 1 foot square box on the wall just inside the door with a lock on it. I thought that was strange. A year later at my morning coffee meeting place one of Tampa's Fire Chiefs was talking about the tour that Holland American gave the fire and police dept of that ship when it was in port. LOL, the fire chief started laffing about this big box of condoms just inside the hospital door... No lock as the ship was in port.... :rofl:

[AllegroRondo]

58. Army still did that in 1996 in Korea

You could stop by the CQ on the way out of the barracks and pick up condoms. You could also get them at sick call or the local medical clinic. No questions asked.

[LisaL]

52. Must not be exactly working, if STDs are reaching epidemic

proportions.

[Lucy - Claire]

78. Also

The Pill is free in the UK,with a perscription. The UK is ahead of the US in sex-ed and sex is an accepted part of life,
and abortion rights are not under threat. We do also have a problem with out of control kids that have no respect for anyone, are drinking, doing drugs and having sex with whoever!!! And it is not just poor kids, middle class children too are getting, spoilt, greedy and out of control. Kids are given the information,we event have teenage mother's in our major soap operas, showing the hardship and complications of have a baby at 13. The problem is that teenagers are facing an increased pressure to be sexualised be the time they are ten. I have seen 12 year old girls buying G-Stings, they smoke and go to the gym and diet.

The thing that worries me about this that if a 13 year old is free to make an adult decision, without
consulting theit parents,it puts the parents at a massive disadvantage. They risk losing control of their child, without knowing why they are going of the rails, if they do or why their daughter has suddenly changed. How is a girl that has been pregnant and had an abortion, going to being grounded, curfews and rules? I was at school with a pregnant 13 year old, she was a bully, rude,a teacher's nightmare,that thought she was a grown up and above school rules. And every single one of the friends were Mother's before we were 16. Teen pregnancy becomes a fashion and it in creases the pressure to have sex. I am all for health workers and counsellors helping teenagers but parents need to be allowed to be involved and to protect their child.
The 13 year old that has an abortion has to deal with feelings that can send a fully grown woman to drink and despair,if parents don't know they can't help and if it was done in secret how does girl tell the?
I think this is a minefield, if it was my girl that was pregnant, I would be very upset if she secretly had an abortion,believing that I am better of not knowing, based on the assumption that I would do anything that would hurt or harm her and I can not be trusted as a parent.

[Darth_Kitten]

14. You are right they both should.....

but unfortunately society has to pay too much out of pocket because underage girls get pregnant and junior cannot/will not absorb his share of the childrearing costs.

I could hardly afford to raise a child on my salary, I'm tired of paying for the stupid choices of selfish, horny teenagers. :)

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

71. because they get pregnant and not the boys

they just have to pay alimony later...

[saddemocrat]

15. I know I'm the lone voice of dissent

But it's disgraceful. Being pro-choice is one thing....allowing the govt. to give my children an abortion is an another.

If that happened to me, I would personally burn down my children's school...

Unless, of course, they are also willing to deal with the emotional and physical consequences for my family and my child.

I am pro-choice, but if I have to give consents for my daughter to go to the dentist, you better bet that I expect to consent for something like that.

[TimeChaser]

17. So...

if your daughter got pregnant and wanted to have an abortion, you'd force her to have the child? :shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. Either that...

...or lack of a procedural rubberstamp is grounds for burning down a school.

[LostinVA]

30. I'll say it again: children are US citizens

And should have more rights unattached from their parents. For something like this, or being sent to "ex gay camp," being sent OUT OF THE COUNTRY to "boot camps," etc.

[saddemocrat]

31. NO

That's not what I'm saying....I personally would take my daughter to a physician...I would be with her...I would deal with the physical and emotional consequences and I would make myself available to her.

If the SCHOOL provided my daughter with an abortion and I found out about it...heads would roll in the most serious way you can ever, ever imagine.

[LostinVA]

35. Yes, but many parents aren't a real parent like you are

This law/policy PROTECTS the girls whose parents care more about themselves and their "belief system" than their daughter's emotional, physical, and sexual health.

[saddemocrat]

40. What does this law do

to the parents who would step up to the plate to help their child?

[LostinVA]

44. Read the link and see

And, that would be something for you to discuss with your child.

[Stockholm]

22. Saddemocrat you sure could fool me

"I would personally burn down my children's school..."

[saddemocrat]

32. really...what woud you do?

Do you have a daughter? Have you been responsible for raising children? I have 4 children and I would give my life for each of them...I also feel that I am responsible for them emotionally, physically, etc.

My kids can't even go on a field trip at school without my signature...I have to sign their planners every day before they go or they get in trouble...but....abortion without my knowledge? Pity the school that would go there with me....I am the mother...I will take my daughter to the doctor.

[LostinVA]

33. I think the point some people are making is that some parents

WOULDN'T take the girl to the doctor, and would force her to bear the child. because of THEIR beliefs, regardless of what's best for the child.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. Exactly. The school will be giving the girl access to a doctor

which is her right, and the law is already clear in the UK that contraception and abortion issues do not need the consent of parents for under 16s - because there are some parents who will not have their daughters' rights and needs as their first consideration, where sexual matters are concerned. But in practice, it may not be easy for a girl to consult a doctor in a timely manner without her parents knowing. If, however, she can take time from school without the parents being informed, she can then get medical advice, know what her options are, and then make choices. Ideally, her relationship with her parents will be strong enough that she can go to them first, or talk it through with them with the doctor, but that isn't always the case.

[LisaL]

38. Again, UK has been doing it for a long time-but is it working?

The teen pregnancies are on the rise, and STDs are on the rise.
They obviously decided they are not spending enough, but perhaps they are not doing something right to begin with?

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Which figures are you using?

Under 16 conceptions, England and Wales:
1993 7.3
1998 8.5
2003 8.0
2004 7.6
Source: National Statistics

Which would seem to show the approach of the last few years has been working. STDs are, I think, on the rise, but that's not, ironically, dependent on confidential access to doctors - because neither prescribed contraceptive pills nor access to abortion will affect the STD rates.

[LisaL]

50. The original article states teen pregnancy rates are on the rise

in the UK. As for STDs, they are probably on the rise because teens think they can take care of pregnancy with pills and doctors, but do not worry about getting an STD.

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. Unfortunately, the original article uses information from the Daily Mail

On the 24th of March, they just said "teenage pregnancies are continuing to rise". But a more detailed report showed that isn't actually true for those under 18, for the latest figures comparing 2003 to 2004:

under 14   334   341
      14  1888  1751
      15  5802  5521
      16 13303 13616
      17 20835 20921
under 18 42162 42150

From:

Daily Telegraph

She said she was particularly pleased with the "significant reduction" in the conception rates for younger teenagers. There had been an overall decline of 15.2 per cent in conceptions for under-16s since 1998, she said. The decline for under-18s was 11 per cent - short of the 15 per cent interim target.
...
The figures showed a fall of only one per cent in the under-18 pregnancy rate and six per cent in under-16s.
...
Critics said the fall in pregnancy "rates" - the number of pregnancies per thousand - could be attributed in part to an increasing population. This includes a large number of Muslim families where teenage pregnancy is rare.

So for under 18s, absolute numbers, and rates, are down - and that's the figure most relevant to those at school. However, conception rates for 18 and 19 year olds increased (see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_health/HSQ29.pdf), so "teenage pregnancies" increased. But 18 and 19 year olds are normally held to be completely responsible for their own health and reproductive decisions, so using their figures in an article about school reproductive advice isn't really relevant (in England, you can leave school after you are 16, and about 2/3rds of girls remain in education when they are 17 - and those who leave are far more likely to be the ones who are pregnant). But the Daily Mail is an unreliable newspaper; the only equivalent I can think of in the USA is the Washington Times.

[LisaL]

66. Even if they got pregnancy rates down for some teenagers-

what good is that going to do if the STDs are on the rise? Epidemic proportions-that doesn't sound good.
STDs are becoming resistant to antibiotics too. Morning after pills, birth control pills-does it cause teens to have unprotected sex and get infected?

[saddemocrat]

41. That might be true...

and it is unfortunate....but I have to tell you...my daughter is almost 10, and there are plenty of times that she has been dishonest with me about things that are uncomfortable for her.

For example: She recently got several bad grades in a row on her science tests. Instead of coming to my husband and I about them, she hid them under her bed. I didn't find out until parent-teacher conferences that she was in essence failing science.

Let's be clear here...dh and I are both professionals in the science field...we are both caring, understanding parents and if she had come to us with her grades, we would have done everything possible to help her...in a caring, loving way. Her concern though, was that she might not be able to play her computer game or watch her shows if this came out. :o

We weren't notified by the teacher of her failing until she had failed several exams...not just one...so this meant that she also got further and further behind.

When we did find out, we were disappointed, but not angry. I understand what it is like to be a child...since then, we've worked out a great new study plan with her and she is gaining ground again.

My point though, is even though we are pretty ok parents, our daughter was still 'afraid' to come to us. What if she had never had to come to us? Yes, she did suffer some consequences..no tv for awhile...no computer until she pulled her grades up....and...if my teen daughter got pregnant there would be consequences too....not going out at night with friends, no dating for awhile, etc.... Kids often will try and escape getting into trouble if they can. So allowing abortions/medical treatment without parental notification means that even parents who WOULD do a good job handling this kind of thing may not be notified.

Also, there ARE avenues for teens to become emancipated or get treatment when parents don't consent.

I just think that it's unfortunate that here as parents we are completely responsible for every single part of our child's development...we are the ones that get blamed if things go wrong, we are the ones that pay for their care, their education, etc...and then at the end of the day we are told that we have limited rights.

How is it that parents can be JAILED if their kids skip school too many times in TX, because parents are the 'responsible' parties...but that if your kid gets pregnant and wants an abortion, you don't have to know about it?

<shakes head>

[Boudica the Lyoness]

55. Proud to be British.

I've been here from almost the start. As you can see I don't post very often but right now I really am mad.
Saddemocrat, this is not about YOU. I'm sure your daughters are really doing great with such loving and involved parents. I think that most girls who get pregnant at an early age are looking for love and attention from another human being even if it comes in the form of a willy. Something is wrong in these girls home. My issue is not about the girls parents forcing her to carry the fetus to term. You don't have any idea what it is like in some homes. Maybe if they found out she was pregnant they would beat the baby out of her and or throw her out, or maybe she'll have to endure years of verbal abuse from her parents enforcing what she already feared, she's a worthless slut, she'll never amount to anything good etc. I don't think it's an issue that her computer games will be taken away.
Some of these girls really do want a chance at a normal happy life and just want to buy time till they can graduate high school and have a crack at a decent life far away from their nasty parents. But you'd have them going before a judge, or dealing with their parents through an advocate or going into foster care. The devil you know is better than the one you don't know. I shudder to think what would happen to the girl once the advocate has gone home for the day!
Please, if you are so bothered that your daughter could get help from kind people helping her get out of a pickle in a private way then just keep being a good parent and this will never happen to you. For you it's preventable.
Being a liberal I really can put myself in other people shoes and I'm wise enough to know that every home is not like the one I live in. Most of all we have to help the ones ALREADY in the world that are in trouble.

[saddemocrat]

59. right....

You don't have a clue about me, my life, the home that I grew up in, the things that I have seen or my liberal views.

Young teenagers also get pregnant today because sex is all around them....it's hardly possible for me to find appropriate clothing for my 9 year old daughter...and every rock star/movie star she idolizes has fake boobs and is ....having some grotesque birthing statue made or something.

My children have heard and learned more about sex from the tv and their peers than I knew as a young teen-ager. They are curious and at times precocious and mistakes happen.

I do not blame the parents immediately if the child makes some poor choices...you are assuming that these parents are basically abusive ogres and their daughters are running to every tom, dick and...willy for love. pleeease.

Most girls wouldn't be going before a judge or going into foster care (unless, of course, they were living in an abusive situation ...and in this case that might give them a better chance at a good crack at life.)

Many of these girls, however, might have to actually meet with a social worker and their parents and work through this as a family....my god...perish the thought that I am actually still advocating parents and children solving problems and working together.

I say we abandon this whole family thing and just let the kids start making their own choices from day 1....consequences be damned...

Keep in mind..I never said abortion shouldn't be a legal option...I simply believe in informed consent for parents. I believe in helping people too...but abortion for minors without consent for parents goes too far for me. I am certain that there are other ways that we can help these girls and families.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

70. Keeping it real

Sorry if I insulted you. I think I don't come across as very nice when I post. I didn't mean to judge you, I'm just trying to make a point.

I live in the same world as you but I've never worried about my sons getting a girl pregnant because of the way I raised them. One son is 31 my other is 17. They never idolized TV people or sports people because I've made a point of keeping it real. When we do happen to see somebody on TV with the fake boobs and skimpy clothing we have a good laugh at them. I am more then likely to yell out "look at her plastic titties, she's dressed like a slut and she can't sing"! We MOCK their 'common as muck' ways. My boys don't idolize trash. We look up to people who make a difference in this world for good. We talk about sex on a regular basis, sex is all around us too and it's normal. I believe in keeping the topic out in the open instead of something dirty to be discussed only with their peers. Granted my 17 yr old is older than your daughter but it's how it's always been in our home.

I know you'd like to have parents and children sitting down and solving their problems together, like we do, but it's not always possible. We live in world where dads get own daughters pregnant, parents beat children, parents abandon the children, do drugs or throw them out of the home. It's not real to think these people can sit down and work things out as a family because they are too fucked up! I also believe that when a girl is pregnant she then IS THE PARENT TO BE and should be able to make decisions concerning the future of her fetus without having the 'maybe' grandparents informed.

This reminds me of my husbands two pro life business partners who after a lengthy debate with my husband both confessed the reason they were against a womans right to choose was because they didn't want their wives aborting their children to be! In other words they didn't trust their own wives so they said to hell with the rest of us! They are fundies by the way with 4 kids a piece so far.

I would like to think that the people at these places that help the girls are in that position because they have good judgment will try to talk the girls into sitting down with their parents. I think they only go ahead without the parents being informed when they recognize enough red flags.

By the way when I mentioned the bit about idol worship I was trying to be helpful. I have noticed pointing out these TV idiots and mocking their silly ways sets an impression in my childrens minds that mum doesn't approve and these people are only fit to be laughed at. Anyway it worked for me. I know the girls clothes these days are very slutty. If I had a daughter I'd dress her in tee shirts and jeans.

[LostinVA]

62. Cheers!

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

72. I am the mother... I will

I... I... I...

[Lars39]

45. The "morning after pill" does NOT cause abortions.

[LostinVA]

64. Correct -- lots of misinformation about this...

[Vidar]

18. Ah, to live in a civilized country...

[LisaL]

25. Yes. Very civilized. They are doing it because teen pregnancies

and STDs are on the rise. They are trying to fix it, but I am not at all sure they are going about it in the right away.

[FooFootheSnoo]

47. I have a right to know

If my daughter gets pregnant. Personally, I feel most parents would try to respect their child's decisions.
Fundies can say whatever they want, but most of them would take their 10 year old daughter to get an abortion before they would force them to carry the baby to term. Why? Because they are hypocrites and couldn't bear the shame of actually being as pro-life as they say they are.
I think it would be a good idea for great britain to have social workers or specially trained advocates at all of these schools. If a child is thrown out of her home for being pregnant, the advocate could refer her to social services to have her placed somewhere else. If the child was raped or molested, the advocate could help the child report the abuse. If a girl was afraid her parents were going to beat her up, then the advocate could inform that parents their daughter's safety was going to be monitored. The parents would be informed and the child would have an adult "friend" to help her out if her parents were not supportive.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a 10 year old girl winds up pregnant, then she needs to see a social worker first and a doctor second. Obviously, something bad is happening in that child's life and it needs to be addressed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. Are you claiming that as a fundamental human right?

Or are you just saying that most parents are responsible, so they should be told? If so, do you really think it's a better outcome for everyone if an irresponsible parent is told, they throw the girl out of the house, she ends up in care, and either has an abortion anyway, or has a baby she can't support?

A doctor cannot judge on their own whether it's best for a particular child if the parent is notified of the pregnancy - they don't know enough about the family relationships. The person best placed to make that decision is the girl, however young they are. They are free to talk to their parents, and I think most doctors will suggest it if it seems at all feasible.

[FooFootheSnoo]

53. I think parents have a fundamental human right

to know if an extremely young girl winds up pregnant. Now, if a kid is 16 or 17 years old, then I guess it's a litttle different(although I hope my daughter would tell me).
A doctor cannot make the decision, you are right. That's why I said they should have some sort of advocate that the girl can talk to. The advocate can support and protect the girl if her parents are not supportive or are abusive.

do you really think it's a better outcome for everyone if an irresponsible parent is told, they throw the girl out of the house, she ends up in care, and either has an abortion anyway, or has a baby she can't support?

yes, I do think it's better for the girl and, if she chooses to have it, her child. If a child comes from a decent home, then most of the time (although not all the time) they wouldn't end up pregnant at a very young age (again, we're talking under 16). Secondly what kind of a cold callous parent is going to throw their daughter out in the streets? ( The kind of parent that shouldn't have had children to begin with.) Do you think any kid is better off having a secret abortion, dealing with none of the factors that lead to the pregnancy in the first place, and going back home with a really, really, really big burden for a kid that age and no one to talk to? Let's say the girl wound up pregnant because of incest? Sure, she gets the abortion, but does anything happen to her abuser? He's free to act again and she'll be back for another abortion sooner or later.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. Why a 'fundamental huuman right'?

Do you think any kid is better off having a secret abortion, dealing with none of the factors that lead to the pregnancy in the first place, and going back home with a really, really, really big burden for a kid that age and no one to talk to? Let's say the girl wound up pregnant because of incest? Sure, she gets the abortion, but does anything happen to her abuser? He's free to act again and she'll be back for another abortion sooner or later.

Yes, I think they will be better off with the abortion, if that's their choice. If it's incest, getting the abortion wouldn't prevent prosecuting the abuser, if it was the father or stepfather - who would already know the girl could potentially be pregnant in that case. If it were another family member, then the consideration is the same for any rape victim - you shouldn't force the victim to go through a court case if they think it will be too traumatic for them. By forcing them to go to their parents before an abortion is possible, you would put a few at physical risk - there are some parents would would get physical as soon as they knew of the pregnancy.

You really think it's better to ignore the judgement of the girl? If they can decide on an abortion for themselves, they have the chance of getting the relationship back on track, or at least keeping it in its current dubious, but non-violent (and providing a home) state. There may be a few cases where the judgement of the girl, even after advice from school and medical professionals, plus anyone else they feel they can trust, is worse than that of the non-trusted parent - but I think those will be far outwieghed by the numbers of girls who correctly think their parents won't do the right thing for them, but instead have their own idea of 'decency' screw things up. Why do you think the emotional problems of leaving home will always be better than ending the pregnancy without the parents knowing?

I still can't see why you think it's a 'fundamental human right', and you don't seem to have argued anything about that - just that you see some situations where it's better for the child if the parents know. The parent has a responsibility to care for their children. That doesn't mean the same as a right to know everything about the child.

[FooFootheSnoo]

60. It's a right for the parent to know because the parent is responsible for

the child.
I think you may have misunderstood my first post where I said "Fundies can say whatever they want, but most of them would take their 10 year old daughter to get an abortion before they would force them to carry the baby to term." I did not mean that they should have the right to force their child to abort or carry the baby to term.
Parents have a right to know what is going on because they are legally responsible for their child. The overwhelming majority of parents really care about their kids and want to give them the best guidance they can. Most parents are going to try to respect their children's wishes.
Why do you think the emotional problems of leaving home will always be better than ending the pregnancy without the parents knowing?
Because the reasons given for supporting girls having abortions without their parents knowledge include :incest, emotionally and physically abusive parents, religion-crazed fundies who would force their daughters to have a child, etc. In all those situations I think a child would be better off living with someone beside her parents. Maybe at some point, after counseling, time apart, etc. the family could come back together. Those situations need to be addressed.

The parent has a responsibility to care for their children. That doesn't mean the same as a right to know everything about the child.
Sorry, I totally disagree. I may not have a right to know my daughter's every thought, but I've got a right to know if she's pregnant. I am her mother. That doesn't mean I think she's my property. But, she is my responsibility. I'm responsible for her emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual well being until she is 18 years old. If schools are helping her have an abortion behind my back, what am I here for? Just to give birth?

It sucks that some kids have bad parents. Most parents are not like that. I can't see taking away every parents right to know what is going on with their daughters because some parents are bad people. There are places those girls can go and people that can help them if they are truly scared.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. But giving you that as a 'right' will hurt other girls

It's good that good parents know whether their daughters have been, or are, pregnant; they can do something useful with that situation. But taking a girl away from her home (which may include one parent who will be reasonable with her, and siblings who either she needs, or who need her) in preference to keeping a confidence from a parent just isn't worth it. Yes, any situation with a girl under 16 getting pregnant has had something go wrong; but the solution of understanding parents isn't always available. Sometimes keeping quiet really is the best option for the girl. If you knew someone married had had an affair, would you automatically tell their spouse?

I know you're not advocating giving the parent(s) any say in the decision of abortion or having the baby; but that means you are advocating having the doctor write to the parents, or call them in, to say "I just gave your daughter an abortion, but she was unwilling to tell you about it". Do you really think that will improve matters?

[FooFootheSnoo]

73. I don't think anyone would be giving me that right

I believe I already have that right in this country, correct me if I'm wrong. I guess we are just going to have to disagree. It's obvious that we aren't going to change each other's minds.

[muriel_volestrangler]

74. It's not a right in all of the USA

6 states and DC have no law requiring the notification of the parents:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-parental-consent.xml

and back in 1999, 28 states had no law requiring notification:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pare1.htm

So it would seem that this is a benefit that has been given to many parents in the past few years, that they didn't have before. It doesn't look as though it's regarded as a 'fundamental human right' if large states like New York don't recognise it.

[Megahurtz]

68. Good for the 'Ol Brits!!!

:applause: