Canada hunters start killing seals, tempers flare

[JohnLocke]

Canada hunters start killing seals, tempers flare
By Paul Darrow -- Reuters
Saturday, March 25, 2006
----
OFF CANADA'S EAST COAST (Reuters) - Canadian hunters started shooting and clubbing harp seal pups on Saturday at the start of an annual hunt that is the focus of a tech-savvy protest by animal rights groups.
This year, 325,000 young seals will be killed on the ice floes off the East Coast where the animals gather.
Unusually warm weather means the floes are a fraction of their normal size and thickness, prompting hunters to kill the seals individually rather than clubbing them to death en masse as they cluster on the ice in pools of blood.
"It's slow going. The ice is not full of seals all over the place," said Roger Simon of Canada's federal fisheries ministry, which oversees the hunt.
The crack of rifle fire could be heard continually as hunters in boats shot seals as they lay on tiny floes and then dashed over to the bodies in hopes of retrieving them before they slipped off the ice and sank.
Once the animals are killed, they are skinned and taken into the hunters' boats. The pelt is taken to make coats while the rest of the carcass is usually left behind.
At one point a hunter, frustrated at the activists' presence, picked up the bloody carcass of a skinned seal and threw it at a small inflatable craft full of protesters and journalists. It hit the boat and sank.
One sealing boat steamed straight toward the journalists' craft and turned at the last moment, sending a wave crashing over the observers.
Canada says the hunt gives the local economy a crucial boost and helps keep a harp seal population of almost six million animals in check.
The Humane Society of the United States has chartered a 110-foot (30-meter) boat to follow the hunt and is putting film and videos of the killings on its Web site.
"It's disgusting when you stand out here and look at what the seals have been through already. They're clinging on for life as it is, thanks to the effects of global warming," said the society's Rebecca Aldworth.
----
Read the rest here.

[Kagemusha]

1. ...I see Aldworth criticizes shooting seals and leaving them in agony.

That's why most hunters, conditions permitting, um, you know, club them..

But whatever. It's all PR. On both sides.

[Amonester]

2. And it seems like the whole (sad) thing will never end until...

the day there won't be any ice left on this War-ming planet (if no new ice age begins).

[SomewhereOutThere424]

52. so...why leave them in agony?

Have I somehow lost the meaning of hunting in these past years and it's become a way to unethically cause a small furry thing torment? Didn't you hunt to eat? To survive? How are you surviving by torturing animals? They're all on the same level of fritz if you ask me...

[Kagemusha]

64. Ask her - I wasn't there.

I'm not sure why anyone would bother to shoot a seal at all. But the ice flows are bad this year (global warming, or at least Gulf of St. Lawrence warming - Moscow had it cold) and maybe someone shoots a seal somewhere only to find out recovery is not safe.

I keep saying it around these boards - this may be a "hunt", but it is in no way, whatsoever, sport, and it was never meant to be sport, not by the government, not by the people killing seals, no one. I'm mostly talking to myself, too, but unlike a lot of subjects, I'm just close enough to this one to pour could water on the shaky arguments. The ethics are not shaky. Resorting to saying this isn't the 'hunting' you know, well... this is different. Apples and oranges. People - and I mean this in a very literal fashion - do not kill seal pups for *sport*. If people want to believe otherwise that's their own imagination at work.

[foo_bar]

72. well, it would hardly be sporting

Not that people don't take a grim fascination in their work, like in the headline below. I'm sure some of the clubbers get an atavistic thrill from whacking something that cute.

[Kagemusha]

83. Sure, they must enjoy thumbing it to people like you too

It's not among my motivations, but someone out there must get a kick out of being closer to their pioneering ancestors in the face of widespread foreign public opinion.

But like, so what. There's bigger issues, I'm just saying.

[foo_bar]

108. people like me have a thick coat of blubber

It helps protect us from strange offhand remarks.

There's bigger issues, I'm just saying.

Bigger fish to fry? I see your point about fuzzy animals getting disproportionate media coverage, but that's human nature too: we're designed to feel pity towards helpless-looking, doe-eyed creatures.

Konrad Lorenz argued in 1950 that infantile features triggered nurturing responses in adults. Lorenz argued that this was an evolutionary adaptation, which helped ensure that adults cared for their children, ultimately securing the survival of the race. As evidence for this theory, Lorenz noted that humans react more positively to animals that resemble infants—with big eyes, big heads, shortened noses, etc.—than to animals that do not. Lorenz noted that in German the names of infant-like animals often end in the diminutive suffix -chen (for example, Rotkehlchen, or robin). Animals without these features do not have the suffix, even when they are quite small.

http://www.answers.com/topic/cuteness

[LizMoonstar]

3. my 'home' board has some Newfies, and we talked a bit about it.

link: http://forums.infamer.com/showthread.php?t=684

but be aware that we are not designed as a serious forum.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

5. be aware that you guys all support the seal killing

except for maybe one post-

You guys are off!

and I don't mean that in a "good" way.

[K8-EEE]

6. Creepy....

I always thought Canadians were more civilized than us, but yikes, one of my fave groups is from Newfoundland and they singer was dissing Sir Paul for saying this, like he has no right? EVERYBODY should be able to say, um, can you think of something to do that's not clubbing those baby seals? Why not?? And anybody who buys those products, a pox on you -- I'm starting to understand my vegan friends more and more because I know that there is unnecessary cruelty for profit in half the things I buy. Awareness is the beginning of change. It's progress! Why are they so afraid of people bringing it up?

[Kagemusha]

11. Hey, Sir Paul is acting like everyone should just obey his command.

And he's just absolutely astounded that his command is not actually being obeyed. It's a tone shared by many activists. Must be great for raising money. It's really awful at convincing Canadians.

[K8-EEE]

7. Do They Approve Of The "Puppies For Fur" In China?

Those videos will make you sick to your stomach. And yet I'm sure people will defend it!

[SomewhereOutThere424]

54. It's disguisting...

I am not sure if people still do it, but I know people would defend it. They can defend what they don't have to look at. The same way they defend the iraq war. Maybe some day god will fix his error in humans and give them a working pair of eyes, that can see things are wrong. Or maybe they'll just evolve them. That is...if they start using them now.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

4. Animals are NOT to be treated inhumanely & to be exploited selfishly

not in the year 2006--

And there will be persistent and repeated events to ensure that we humans as a race advance morally.
...repeated lessons from mother earth...from groups..from individuals...from countries--

Callous cruel inhumane actions will not be tolerated.
It will no longer be acceptable to:
mastermind and execute invasions of countries to steal their resources--
to exploit helpless creatures and inflict suffering--
to exploit helpless individuals and inflict suffering.

Awareness is growing exponentially (with the help of the internet)-
Tolerance is growing shorter and shorter.

Things will soon be changing!
I guar--ron-- teee

get the popcorn and watch the movie--
a real action thriller!

[OneBlueSky]

8. this is just a sick, sick practice . . . killing seal pups for fur . . .

and leaving the carcasses behind is both cruel and wasteful, a prime example of how humankind should NOT treat the environment and other species . . . absolutely disgusting . . .

if the local residents need income, let them organize photo safaris to capture the seals on film rather than killing them . . .

[rfkrfk]

9. single out the politicans responsible for this atrocity

make them internet celebs

is this a national or provincial issue?

[Kagemusha]

68. I'm surprised no one answered. It's a good question.

The Liberal Party has just been removed from power after a long period of electoral dominance followed by a minority government plagued by scandals that had rotted the party's reputation to the core under the previous Prime Minister, Jean Chretien. Besides the new government being Conservative, meaning it is less prone to sympathy for Atlantic Canada but is in favor of economic development there, including seal hunting if it means fewer welfare cheques, the seal hunt policy has now spanned numerous fisheries ministers. Provinces do not really have responsibility for much when it comes to fishing; less so in the seal case because seals are protected on a federal level (and the hunt is an exception to that protection, not a free for all). However, due to political reasons, the various premiers (equivalent to US state governors) of economically hard-hit coastal provinces have generally been vocal advocates of the seal hunt. The federal fisheries ministry's studies on seals are widely known, and environmentalists feel justified in widely attacking them but nonetheless, they are accepted scientific wisdom in Canada and considered trustworthy by the government. The margins for error are wide enough that Canadians generally do not take seriously that the hunt, as it is today (which is a damned large disclaimer considering recent history), is not threatening the seal population as a whole.

So basically, almost the entirety of the provincial and federal leadership backs the seal hunt, it is both a national and provincial issue, though largely a national issue, and it is pointless to single out politicians because they are collectively, not individually, responsible for what is now an entrenched policy backed by what is believed to be sufficiently sound science and the outcry of suffering native and poor white communities in Atlantic Canada.

And that's why American activists are banging their heads against a wall in vain.

[ConcernedCanuk]

10. Some facts to ponder

.
.
.

In response as to why many wonder why the hunters don't just shoot them . .

"Methods used for killing seals - generally a club or baseball bat to the head - are particularly unpleasant. Sealers argue that it's their best option. Firing a rifle scares seals, and makes them enter the safety of the water, whereas sunbathing seals will remain basking even as others around them are being clubbed to death. Hunters would like to use .45 - calibre automatic pistols with silencers fitted, arguing that this would result in many more 'clean' kills - about 99% instead of 92% - but these are not permitted by Canadian gun laws."

http://www.yptenc.org.uk/docs/factsheets/animal_facts/harp_seal.html

And to respond to questions about any danger of hunting them to extiction:

"The seal harvest off the east coast of Canada is based on sound scientific evidence on healthy populations and is conducted in a humane manner. The annual harvest is very sustainable and the population is in no danger of being in any way threatened due to the seal harvest. International organizations continue to exploit out-dated and illegal practices that no are longer relevant and no longer exist. For example, they exploit the use of photos of young whitecoats, despite the fact that they know these seals have been by law excluded from the harvest since the 1980s. Ignoring the facts, these organizations continue to spread misleading propaganda in an effort to raise exorbitant amounts of money. The anti-sealing campaign is an industry in itself. In fact, the value of fundraising in the name of stopping the seal harvest exceeds the total value of the Canadian sealing industry."

/snip/

Since 1970, the harp seal population has tripled. The seal herds off Canada's east coast are the largest in the world. The harp seal herd is by far the largest at an estimated 5.9 million animals, with its population increasing by more than 700,000 annually. The hood seal population is in excess of 900,000 animals and the grey seal herd stands at 143,000 animals. The seal population has been a major contributor to the lack of recovery of the groundfish stocks, which are of critical importance to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador, and the federal Fisheries Resource Conservation Council fully supports efforts to sustainably harvest the seal resource for its economic potential, as well as to lessen pressure on recovering groundfish stocks.

http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2006/exec/0301n06.htm

[fasttense]

12. Oh great, clubbing baby seals to death for fun, profit and the good of

the environment. Could it get any better? :sarcasm:

[MadHound]

14. Well, that was a load of manure

First off, it isn't the eating habits of the seals that are destroying the fish stocks, it is the fact that MAN has fished these stocks into virtual oblivion over the past two hundred years.

And quite frankly these rosy scenarios of how large the seal population is is under a large amount of doubt. In fact there are studies out there with ample proof that the seal population is declining due to shrinking food supply(due to man's over fishing of the N. Atlantic) and also due to over hunting, much of which is illegal.<http://www.imma.org/PBR/><http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=13015><http://www.ecoworld.com/water/articles/articles2.cfm?TID=59>

It would also help if the Canadian government would do some more recent counts of pup production amongst the harp seals. In fact the government themselves admit that there hasn't been a real estimate of seal pup production for over twenty years.<http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/zone/underwater_sous-marin/hseal/seal-phoque_e.htm>

Instead, the government and hunters are using the same old BS that they've used for wiping out other once numerous species. Oh, there's still plenty, they're competing with man for some "vital" resource(such as cod, which mankind has fished out, not the seals), or that it is somehow for the "good" of the species for the annual killing spree to occur:eyes: And then there is always the trusty excuse that this is "vital for the local economy" Well you know what, if the local economy is so damn dependent on this annual bloody toll, then it is time for them to find something else to make money off of. If for no other reason than the fact that if such hunts continue, the population is going to plummet suddenly and then what will they do? In addition, the morality of engaging in such a bloodthirsty sport, all to harvest just the pelt is wrong, just wrong.

Sorry, but from an ecological and an economic view, continuing this hunt makes very little sense in the long run.

[President Kerry]

40. thank you for the great post. n/t

[Kagemusha]

56. The local economies in these places are already total wrecks.

Fine, say they're to blame for it themselves. That's just fine. There's a lot of truth to it even. There's nowhere near enough money to be made from seal hunting that the local economy is dependent on the stuff. It's supplemental income for otherwise dirt poor people. If it wasn't for Canada's social safety net, old age pensions, etc, a lot of these communities would shrivel up and die.

By the way, it's not a sport.

I think a lot of environmentalists feel that humans have forfeited their right to eat cod and only seals should eat cod for the rest of time. And, in fact, it's best cod stocks be kept down by seals to prevent humans from being tempted to engage in fishing again, to drive humanity out of that industry for good. Well, if that's what people wanna think, they're totally entitled to that opinion...

But even so, this 'doubt' about the size of the seal herd, I mean.. I'd love it if they did more hard biological science about this too but, I don't see the basis for claiming that the population estimates are SO far off that 325k is going to threaten them with extinction. I feel that's just a bogus argument to bolster the moral argument (which is considerable, and all).

In the long run, seals' natural predators will reassert themselves (assuming the population stays at around its present estimated level) and there won't be any ecological need for a hunt. Are we there yet? Doubt it. In the long run we're all dead. I'm more focused on 2006.

[MadHound]

91. More focused on 2006. There it is in a nutshell

More short term thinking will really cure these problems, and besides, the seals can die for another year, or two or four while we focus on politics, after all we've got to have politics to effect change, so we can get into office and do things like start thinking about the next election, and then I promise after that I'll start thinking about the ongoing seal slaughter, but hey they can hang on for four more years, now can't they, because there is another election on the horizon and I've got to start raising money now and and and

And OMG, who killed the dodo, the ivory billed woodpecker, or the seals, they're gone.

Short fucking term thinking. That is what got us into the shit, more of the same won't get us out. Polictics is neccessary, but it has absolutely got to be planned on long term scales. Iriquois never made a political decision without first considering the ramifications that such a decision would have on those seven generations hence. It is about time we started doing the same.

Entire species are dying, here and now. But as long as mankind is around, politics will always be plentiful. Think about it, in the long term.

[Kagemusha]

94. Here's a long term ambition you can chew on then: eliminate mankind

It'll solve all the environmental problems of the world. Then no human can go reversing seal hunting bans in 50 years or 100 years or 500 years.

Just get rid of the people. Problem solved. Unless Batman foils you or something, if you know what I mean.

[MadHound]

98. BRILLIANT!

Really now though, it is time we started thinking long term, and population reduction is coming whether we like it or not. It can either come suddenly and devastatingly, or we can guide it in for a safe landing. We have reached the point on this planet where we can no longer sustain our population at this size, using up the amount of resources we do. We continue to try to do so, and oops, it's over the cliff edge for mankind. Have you read any Thomas Malthus? Perhaps you should, the man was prophetic in his analysis of mankind and resources.

[primavera]

106. We laugh, but that's not far off point

I think that's really ultimately the issue: does having the physical ability to exploit every other living creature unto extinction give mankind the moral right to do so? Fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon one's point of view, we do have the ability to vastly exceed the natural carrying capacity of the environment (up unto the point, of course, when we've literlly consumed every last resource on earth), enabling our population to grow pretty much unchecked. The larger the population grows, the more we will have to utilize our unique abilities to displace and erradicate other species who also need space to live and resources. Obviously, this is something we've been doing and are continuing to do on a daily basis, but a) it can't go on indefinitely and b) what gives us the moral authority to expand our population at the expense of every other living creature on earth? The simple fact that we can? That might makes right? The Bible that gives mankind dominion over the rest of the earth? Personally, I'm unimpressed by such justifications for what to my mind constitutes serial genocide of other species in order to provide us with additional Lebensraum, but that's just me. Sooner or later, we're going to have to do something about our exploding population. Personally, I'd much rather it be sooner than later: the sooner we stop consuming everything in sight, the fewer species and environments we need to decimate in order to feed our own population.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

67. ---------NICELY SAID !---great post--n/t

[primavera]

22. Since 1970, the human population has doubled.

The human herd is by far the largest at an estimated 6.6 billion animals.

Hmmm, 5.9 million seals, 6.6 billion human beings, I wonder which population can more comfortably sustain "harvesting"?

[daleo]

49. Regarding fisheries estimates

They haven't always been that accurate in the past - remember cod?

[Kagemusha]

51. A tripling of the population is hard to get wrong.

I mean we're not talking 50k here or there, we're talking about a four million net animal increase.

And cod are underwater. Bottom feeders, in fact.

Seals can be counted from the air.

I'm not picking on you because I don't like you - I have heard this argument a lot from environmentalists and it just really annoys me. Environmentalists are at their weakest when they say a) the government figures must be wrong but we won't provide our own or make any effort to correct those figures, b) we shouldn't assume seals eat cod to any significant degree.

That latter part is one of the key points of silliness that has really turned off a lot of well-meaning Canadians.

[daleo]

62. It may be that seals are easier to count than cod

On the other hand, fisheries counts of cod had a huge political aspect to them - "don't worry, there are plenty left". This seal issue is highly politicized too, so I harbor some doubts. I am not saying biologists can't do a proper count, more like the political/bureaucratic machinery can't always be trusted to relay the information accurately.

As for the wider issue of the seal hunt, I think it would be better for Canada to stop it, for the sake of the country's reputation. As a purely practical matter, I think Canada would be better off without it.

I agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy, though, about this hunt when all of the everyday cruelty to animals around the world is considered. I suppose clubbing baby cows to death in an abattoir is really no different than clubbing baby seals to death on an ice floe. It is just less public, but in practice that makes a huge difference.

[Kagemusha]

63. I'm saying that the ecological argument is not *that* wildly off.

That's why when I have sympathy for these arguments it's for the cruelty aspect. Now, they've done studies showing that clubbing is actually more humane if done correctly. (Big if, obviously, and I'd hate to think about people who need a few tries before they get it right..) No, it's not humane. And for people who think animals ought to be treated as humans it's an abomination.

But if it wasn't for selling the pelts the government might be put in a situation to be killing seals for nothing, just for ecological reasons. I'm not sure that would be considered better. I'm sure it'd be political poison.

[Omaha Steve]

74. From the WWF after the Larry King McCartney hour

Some of what you quote is way off base.


From the WWF!

Thank you very much for your email in response to an interview on CNN's
Larry King Live, aired Friday March 3, 2006 in which the Premier of
Newfoundland and Labrador, Danny Williams, debated the merits of the harp
seal hunt with Sir Paul McCartney and his wife Heather Mills. We appreciate
the opportunity you have given us to address your concerns.

To begin, WWF is unhappy with how we were characterized by Premier Williams
and we are currently pursuing clarification with the Premier's office.

As you may know, during the interview, Premier Williams stated that WWF
supports the hunt, supports the Newfoundland government's position on the
hunt, and approves of the humaneness of the hunt. We do not claim any of
these positions.

In our view, the seal hunt is at present sustainable. Consequently, WWF
does not perceive it to be a high priority as a conservation issue.

The Premier misspoke when he said that we have said the hunt is humane. We
are not an animal welfare organization and we have never had a position on
whether or not the hunt is humane.

Having said all of that, we understand and sympathize with those who may
object to the seal hunt on ethical or other grounds. Consequently, WWF did
provide funds to help convene a meeting of The Independent Veterinarians'
Working Group (IVWG) on the Canadian Harp Seal Hunt in May 2005 to examine
the humaneness of the hunt, and to ascertain whether opportunities existed
to minimize or eliminate animal suffering within the hunt. The Group was
composed of nine veterinarians from North America and Europe who have a wide
range of experience and knowledge relating to the health and welfare of
seals and other marine mammals, and animal welfare in general. The findings
of the Group included recommendations for improvements and were disseminated
widely within the veterinary, government, animal welfare and sealing
communities.

WWF is a global conservation organization committed to protecting wildlife
and wild places, and to conserving the vibrant diversity of life on Earth.
This is a challenging and complex mission that demands science-based
planning to conserve wildlife and maintain healthy natural systems that can
sustain all species, including people.

WWF's approach is to unite individuals, organizations, and governments
behind pragmatic, science-based approaches to conservation. I've attached
WWF's Advocacy with Excellence principles, which detail how we carry out our
mission. In addition, I also suggest referring to our 2005 Annual Report at
wwf.ca in the "About Us" section. It highlights our conservation
achievements and finances throughout the past year. We take great pride in
accomplishing results by taking solutions-oriented action to conservation
issues, and we are proud of our track record in this respect.

Thank you again for giving us the opportunity to set the record straight.
While no single view will seem right to everyone, WWF remains true to its
fundamental conservation mission. Our efforts have produced more than 40
years of results, from pulling species back from the brink of extinction, to
safeguarding countless wild places that will now provide beauty and
sustenance for generations to come.

I hope our efforts are worthy of your continued support. Should you have any
further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me directly at
1-800-267-2632, extension 7289.

Sincerely,
Maya


*********************************
Maya Ahmad
Manager, Donor Services
World Wildlife Fund Canada
1-800-267-2632 or
[phone] x7289
mahmad@...
www.wwf.ca


Seals eat the predators of cod etc... Read what science, not the Canadian Government says.

[lynne]

13. Sealing goes back eons -

- and has tight roots in the culture and history of the region as well as in their economics. An interesting and informative link . . .
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/infomedia/2005/im01_e.htm

[wordpix2]

15. this "tradition" did not involve motorboats & rifles--hunt was from skin

boats that were hand paddled and yes, they traditionally did club the seals, I believe.

If people are allowed to hunt based on their traditional or aboriginal rights, they ought to do it "traditionally." See how many of them want to hand paddle out to the ice floes then.

DESPICABLE PRACTICE :puke:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

16. Yeah, well there are lots of despicable practices that go back

Far into the mists of time, slavery, oppression of women, etc. Doesn't make them acceptable, and neither should it make seal hunting acceptable either. Time to move beyond such practices and join the reality of the twenty first century.

[Darth_Kitten]

20. Well, Canada is hardly backwards...

in it's treatment of either animals or human beings. Isn't the maiming and killing of innocent people in many, many other countries more important than the seal hunt?

My understanding is they need to do this to keep poplulations down. Canadians are hardly savages unaware of what's going on in their land.

Just my say. :)

[MadHound]

28. There are many important things in the world

And most people tend to address multiple issues. Just because people are outraged about the seal hunt doesn't bar them from being outraged about the killing of innocent men, women and children. In fact I would wager a lot of money that those who are outraged about the seal hunt are also outraged about such human suffering and death, and that furthermore, that grouping of people are more active in preventing such actions than the regular population.

And indeed, seal hunting is but one facet of mankind's assault on the enviroment. The reason that such "population control" of the seals is deemed neccessary is because humans from Europe and North America have nearly wiped out the fish population of the North Atlantic. Their motivation for limiting the seal population is one based on economics and greed. Wipe out a competing predator, and perhaps the fish populations will return to a profitable level. Money, a pretty shitty reason to "control" seal populations. Perhaps instead of hunting down and "controlling" the seal population, who has not contributed to the overfishing of the North Atlantic, we should instead hunt down and "control" the population of predators who have directly contributed to such overfishing, mankind.:shrug::sarcasm:

Such experiments at "population control" in the past have often become disasters, witness the buffalo, wolves, mountain lions etc. etc. ad nauseum. Instead of repeating this mistake once more and pushing another species to the brink, perhaps we should allow Mother Nature to determine such matters. After all, nature has a pretty good track record that goes back tens of thousands of years.

[primavera]

31. Well said

I couldn't agree more, that sums it up beautifully.

[Darth_Kitten]

34. I'm concerned about the killing of any creature, but...

I choose not to get so bothered about some necessary hunting.
I happen to love baby seals by the way, but won't get too worked up about this hunt.

[Kagemusha]

59. The present hunt will disappoint fishermen who want seals wiped out.

It just ain't gonna happen at this rate (literally, at this *rate*), however greedy quite a lot of them might be.

...But seriously.

Who the hell ever said buffalo were hunted for the purpose of controlling their population? Wolves were hunted with the specific ambition of wiping them out from large sections of the US, perhaps all of the US (if possible). That's a real broad brush. Compared to the buffalo and wolf situations in the US, this seal hunt is downright Plato-like enlightened.

[MadHound]

81. Of course buffalo were hunted to control their population

After all, the buffalo herds were the mobile general store for many tribes of Native Americans. Control the population of buffalo, you control these tribes. This explicit reasoning was refered to as far back as the 1850s. And yes, wolfe populations were controled, in order that they not prey on cattle herds, horses or other such livestock. Again, all of this is done for money, much like the seal hunts are. The hunters profit from the pelts, and exterminate competitors for the remaining remnants of the North Altlantic fish catch.

Yet again, the seals had nothing to do with these waters being overfished to the point of collapse, that was man's hand, a cumalitive result of five hundred years of greed and shortsightedness. Yet instead of learning from past experience, we continue to fish in the North Atlantic, and kill off competing predators rather than leaving nature alone for awhile in order to recover. This farcical reason of protecting the fish schools is ludicrous on the face of it. Rather than killing seals and continuing to overfish, how about we stop fishing for awhile and let the seals live:shrug: Let nature start restoring the balance that mankind has ripped asunder.

[Kagemusha]

84. You're abusing the word "control" there, I'm just saying.

And I thought that the big outcry to hunt seals began after cod fishing was completely banned. Let me repeat those words - COMPLETELY BANNED. Granted, fishing OTHER fish continued, but christ...

How about stop fishing for a while and kill a few seals here and there to keep the balance reasonable. I thought that's what the hell they've been doing.

But like I said, your use of the term "control" for those examples um......... that's not control, that's genocide. You can say in the buffalo example that it was being done to control the NATIVE AMERICAN populations, but certainly hunting the buffalo was not meant to "control" their populations, but crash them.

Regardless of your assessment of the moral and biological validity of hunting seals, Canada's intent is not to wipe them out! And not being aware of the ban on commercial cod fishing is well, why I've been posting on this thread in the first place. I don't want people making grand arguments about this from ignorance.

[MadHound]

88. The big outcry to stop the seal slaughter has been going on for decades

I'm in my mid forties, and there was an outcry about this since the seventies. Canada has modified some of the more *disturbing* aspects of this yearly harvest, more for the sake of cleaning up a bad PR image than anything else, but year after year, the hunt goes on. Again, all for money. Money for pelts, fewer competitors for fish.

And the harp and hooded seals don't eat just cod friend, if they did they would really be on the brink by now. No, they feed on other fish as well, the same as man does. Except man pursues these catches with drift nets and long lines, all the better to sweep miles of ocean with, like a vacumn cleaner. Cod get caught up(yeah, they may be thrown back, but most of those die anyway), and many other creatures including seals.
And again, the fish catch is going down drastically year after year. Yet our only answer to that is to "control" a competing predator:eyes:

Yes, of course it is genocide! It was genocide for the Native Americans, it was genocide for the buffalo, the wolf, the cod, and now the seal. Seems like mankind can't help but engage in mass killing. Perhaps we need to make a concerted effort to stop such behavior and live more in harmony with others, both other members of our species, and other species all together.

[Kagemusha]

92. I'll just point out that hunting seals was banned for a long time.

Obviously the outcry had some effects for a while until the seal population shot up to an estimated 7 million. And like I've been saying, if the intent is to wipe the seals out then they're not doing a very good job of it.

Thanks for confirming what I thought about activists believing that seals have a right to eat fish but people don't. It's more honest this way.

[MadHound]

96. I'll be even more honest with you

By mankind running rampat over the face of this earth without a forethought in his brain except MORE MORE MORE, he is going to wind up not just killing his own sorry ass, he's going to wind up taking most of the other species on this planet down with him. Gee, that's a first in the annals of this world.

Rather than being good stewards of this earth and living within the balance of nature and the resources of this planet, mankind has overpopulated, over polluted, and over exploited damn near every single corner of this planet. We have reached our carrying capacity, and unless you are ready for a massive die-off, both of animals and man, then we had better start pulling back from our excesses and learn to live within a balance. Yes, this should indeed mean a reduction in population growth. The question is how do you want to go about such a reduction. Continue on the path we're on, and it will be sudden and drastic. Learn to live within our means, practice of birth control, leave what is left of nature's checks and balances to repair themselves, and we as a species can come down to a soft landing. But the time is short to make such decisions, for we have almost reached a point of no return, that fateful tipping point that will take down not just mankind, but most of the other flora and fauna with him.

Oh, yeah, that's right. As you said up above, you're more worried about 2006:eyes:

[Kagemusha]

97. Because seal hunt decisions are taken on a yearly basis.

The only way to ensure that they're not, as I mentioned up above as well, is to just wipe humans off the face of the earth before they manage to take the seals down.

Otherwise you're gonna have to settle for democracy.

[MadHound]

99. Democracy, hah, that's a laugh!

Do you really think that we're living in an honest democracy? Certainly not here in the US, and increasingly less so in Canada, especially since a conservative, pro corporate government is now in ascendancy.

And as for your suggestion about population reduction, I refer you to my post above, BRILLIANT!:evilgrin:

Good night, I'm off to bed now so I can be a good little prole in the morning.

[Kagemusha]

102. I didn't say reduction, I said elimination.

Reduction will only lead to a recurrence of your problem once the population rises to a saturation level again.

Kinda like seals.

[Coventina]

18. My ancestors were Vikings. I should have the right to kill, rape and

pillage at will! It's my family tradition!!!

:eyes:

[Omaha Steve]

47. So does slavery, apartheid, the holocost, etc....

See my point?

http://www.hsus2.org/slideshow-seal-hunt/sealhunt.html

[SomewhereOutThere424]

57. So does fox hunting and cannibilism. It hardly makes them right.

But people were hardly different from brutes and barbarians when they were first started. Should cultures further justify our behaving like cavemen? I thought the goal was to evolve into better beings, not revert again?

Culture...greatness...it's so easy to put an uplifting and motivating on something horrible when you don't have to look at it. Go take a visit to a fur shop one day, watch how they crucify animals like jesus christ and let them bleed. Maybe, you'll see some cultures deserve to wither away.

A culture should evolve like people do. Where is the feel good in watching something slowly die as it bleeds? I am amazed humans can conceive things like religion and benign gods when they are so fascinated in causing suffering.

[dusty64]

19. They are not hunters

they are murderers. I have been trying hard not to thing about what they are doing up there, it makes me physically sick. I find it hard to believe with such a progressive population in Canada that this disgusting and brutal practice is allowed to continue. My boycott of products, beer mainly, will go on. BTW, I AM a vegetarian (25 years).

[Darth_Kitten]

23. Should I boycott U.S. goods?

:shrug:

Should I punish an entire country because of the war in Iraq? Your death penalty? The fact that 1 in 4 of your country's children live in the worst poverty imaginable?

[dusty64]

24. Yes, if you feel strongly

about it you should. :shrug: back at cha.

[MrPrax]

27. Well yeah...you should?

What's the problem...I am Canadian and if that's what it take to shut it down, then so be it.

The Media in Canada, including the CBC, are blatantly collaborating by 'spinning' the patriotic sovereignty angle of 'us' against the 'the big unfair hypocritical world', while avoiding some of the legitimate criticisms of it.

The propaganda is shameless here in trying to pass off this 'welfare' scheme for an economically distressed region that has been thoroughly sold out by those same powers decade after decade. There is definitely an attempt to purposely 'polarize' opinion in that region along the line's of economic 'victimhood'. It's Bull Shit.

Moreover, the one party in Canada you figure would take a tough stand, the NDP, has quietly endorsed it--so if NO political actors are fighting this fight here, then unfortunately if the world and the various environmental groups has to take care of business, so be it.

I applaud their efforts and will help as best I can...

[primavera]

29. Thanks for the report

I've wondered greatly how this was being presented to Canadians, whom I tend to think of (I hope not incorrectly) as being a generally progressive population which wouldn't normally be very supportive of butchering baby seals. It's consequently surprised me that we haven't heard more about internal protests to this policy. Thank you again for shedding some light on that question for me.

[MrPrax]

33. Don't take my word for it...

Go to the Canada Forum here...you see any of the Canadians posting anything about this--even though it is at the moment a big international issue for a country that rarely ever hits the world's news radar...

I post there and many Canadians, esp. lefty ones, are very conscious of NOT posting anything that makes Canada look bad and MUCH prefer to talk about the sins of the US because it creates ideological problems for the various political parties here--who would just rather ignore environmentalism completely.

Sure there is American bashing and some of it is legit...but if the bashing is simply to avoid dealing with your own complicity, then it's a problem and really no different than any other xenophobic bigotry.

[Kagemusha]

65. I saw a brief scene of a seal clubbed to death on TV there recently.

They had a disclaimer before the segment. It's not something I'm fond of watching but they reported it pretty matter of factly and presented both sides of the controversy (and its sub-controversies, like clubbing being more merciful to seal pups than shooting on balance, so sayeth an academic study) without favor or special bias. They know the government's not going to change now. As far as Canada is concerned, the controversy is a decade old and so long as the underlying elements of the hunt appear to be true - i.e. there are (roughly) 6m seals and 325k isn't nearly enough to do more than dent the population, which is the ecological goal - there's not much hay to be made anymore, except for the fact all sorts of foreign activists are putting added pressure on.

[Vinnie From Indy]

21. I have never seen a seal coat

Who would go around saying, "Hey! Check out my baby seal fur coat. It took 40 of the little buggers to make this one."

[primavera]

26. I wonder about that too

To whom is Canada exporting these furs? In my admittedly limited experience living in large, progressive, urban environments in the US, I can't imagine anyone being brave enough to wear one; they'd probably be pelted with rotten tomatoes or something if they did. So I don't imagine Canada is going to have much luck exporting to the US, although I admit I could be wrong. So where are those furs going? Would Canadians buy seal fur coats? Will Europeans buy them? Who is the market for this despicable product?

[flvegan]

30. Here's a chart you can check out

http://www.harpseals.org/hunt/pelts.html

[primavera]

32. Wow, thanks, that's very helpful!

So it's mostly my beloved Scandinavian countries who are buying these, how heartbreaking! Thank you very much for the link, that answers my question.

[peacebuzzard]

36. informative link. Site has an image of a ghastly murder.

this is a horrific & senseless bludgeoning of innocent victims.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. Which begs the question:

How about protesting the people who BUY these things? And the stores?

[Darth_Kitten]

37. Maybe the native peoples of northern Canada?

I personally don't wear fur so I really wouldn't know.

[President Kerry]

39. that would be a very small market.

These pelts become Gucci and Prada-branded luxury items, bought by people all around the world (most of whom, willfully or not, don't know or bother to think what's gone in producing their coat).

[Kagemusha]

44. Actually a lot of them just don't care.

Depends in part on the culture you come from. There's a lot of places where how people treat other HUMAN beings is pretty darn cold. It doesn't surprise me that such people don't really give a damn about a seal.

We can debate the moral repugnancy but besides all that... in terms of actual quality, seal fur makes some pretty good coats. It's not sought after just because it involves killing seals. Though I bet a lot of people must think that.

[President Kerry]

53. says a lot about us as a human race doesn't it.

For quality there are synthetics that makes good coats also. If buyers are spoiled enough that they don't care, this must be outlawed on the national level. It gives Canada a bad rap, and rightfully so.

[Kagemusha]

61. Synthetics may make good coats, but not AS good, on certain levels

Now, to be perfectly frank, I don't think human beings need coats "that good". As you said above, these are luxury items. They are not necessities by any measure...

But when it comes to coats, natural has certain advantages over synthetics and those certain advantages cannot be so easily replicated by science. Just for the record.

The hunt gives Canada a bad rap, but unfortunately there is a legitimate argument for a limited cull; the government's just combined the two interests in an incongruous and awkward way. That said, I don't think McCartney yelling at the country is going to get it to change, because the Canadian government honestly thinks its science is correct and it's not killing anywhere *near* enough seals to beat the population down to 1960's levels.

[flvegan]

77. How so, specifically?

You've stated that "natural has certain advantages over synthetics" and I'd ask what specific advantages a manufactured harp seal coat has over a coat manufactured of other, manmade means...just for the record.

BTW, the "science" you defer to, is in err. You believing what your Minister of Fisheries states would be akin to me drinking the White House koolaid. For that matter, continuing to suggest that it's the overall seal population that needs to be kept in check is little more than laughable. It's about cod and money. No more, no less.

[Kagemusha]

87. No one's gonna make a dime off cod up here anytime soon.

As for the advantages of seal coats, I've never worn one, and never would want to wear one, if it's not blindingly obvious. I know that natural leather beats the hell out of a synthetic substitute and that this is a general rule for pelts. I can say one thing that I've heard - seal pelt coats stand up very well to the elements (both rain and snow) and are pretty smooth stuff. Haven't tried it myself, but I have spoken to people who know personally, friends of family members without animal activist compunctions. You wouldn't like them.

Now as for this thing about deferring to science... I'm explaining that without believable evidence to the contrary, the average Canadian citizen, politician, and journalist, are not going to rise up in arms (not that Canada has a 2nd amendment mind you) to stop the seal hunt. Personally, I think the science is probably a little off by now but the numbers here are so large (6m is a lot of seals compared to the old 2m figure when they were put under a complete hunt ban) that give or take a few hundred thousand, we're still talking about an amazingly healthy population compared to the low point. The science doesn't have to be perfect to be way beyond the point of hysteria. This hunt, is simply NOT enough to extinct the seals. Period. It's not credible to think that even if the numbers are not exact that this hunt isn't more than a small dent.

Which leads me to the next comment.

This hunt is nowhere NEAR enough to drive the seals down to a level where if they are responsible for keeping cod stocks from having their own population explosion (since last I checked commercial cod fishery was banned, and if it's been un-banned a crack that's news to me) that the cod stocks would indeed recover much more. Reducing the seal population by 325k from 6m isn't gonna cut it for that. Anyone expecting this to bring the cod back is nuts. NUTS. I realize it gives some poor Canadians some small measure of money, but frankly, not much. If they derive anything from this it's some sort of primal satisfaction at seeing an animal compeditor take a few blows to the head, so to speak. But it will damn well not bring the cod back and it will damn well not make any of them rich. If that's part of their motivation or most of it then they are sadly misguided (I'm certainly not ruling it out).

Seems to me that the government policy is the worst of all worlds, benefiting no one, satisfying no one, and doing nothing but preserving the status quo while making fishermen feel a little better and activists feeling pretty bad.

[primavera]

109. Actually, I'd be surprised if that were true

I mean, if you look at the serious mountaineers and Artic explorers and such, the guys who really face extreme temperatures, they all wear down, not fur. It's lighter, warmer, cheaper, and doesn't require killing anybody.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

60. I can list a few names

atilla the hun. adolf hitler. Satan.

But oh wait. That's the part of the fur industry they don't want you to see. That only spoiled rich kids and the inherently evil want to wear them. Heck even in places where fur is hunted so you don't freeze to death, people are decent enough to kill one animal and use the fullness of its fur. Only sleezebags wear it for glamour. What about wearing a mutilated corpse makes someone beautiful?

[Omaha Steve]

70. There is a ban on all seal goods being imported to the US

You can't buy any seal products here legally.

[tabasco]

25. There is no good reason to do this!

NONE!

The pursuit of the almighty dollar does not justify this cruel massacre.

What will future generations think of us when we leave them a planet, devastated by our greed.

No bears, no seals, no tigers - just a rotten, filthy, planet covered by humans and our shit.

It is both laughable and tragic that some people claim this is good for the environment.

Mother Nature takes care of her own.

[Kagemusha]

43. No seals?...

Six million minus 325k leaves about 5,675,000 seals left.

That's not 'no seals', sorry.

I agree that the pursuit of the almighty dollar does not justify this cruel massacre. Keeping the seal population from further climbing may - MAY - have legitimate environmentla stewardship value. Mother Nature won't resolve the seal boom by itself soon because killer whales for instance, are having a hard time replenishing themselves from when the seal population was down to 2 million a few decades ago, when hunting was completely halted.

In principle this is the Canadian government using "bad means" to accomplish a "good end", controlling the seal population by appealing to economic self-interest but while regulated to keep things from getting out of hand. Frankly, put bluntly, the government was put in a hard position because of the pure hatred the suffering fishermen had that they couldn't go out and catch cod and the exploding seal population could without any consequences. So the government authorized a seal hunt and manages a rickety balance, caught between the moral conscience of the globe on one hand and the irate poor whites and First Nations on the other. I'm not stating this as a defense but, people have wild misconceptions about what's really going on out there.

And what's really going on out there with seals is nowhere near as bad as what's happening to bears and tigers. And I hope it never is.

[tabasco]

45. Fast forward a hundred years.

Then make the same statement.

There is a time to stop the destruction, and it is BEFORE it happens. If you think the seal population or the population of any mammal besides rats is safe, you need to do some reading.

[Kagemusha]

48. I hear you but, doesn't population explosion bring its own dangers?

I know that when there's too many wolves in a given area that's often when rabies strikes and wipes a ton out. That's a general rule in nature, right? You seem to be arguing that we've got to stop the hunt before it drives seals extinct. The hunt at this present pace could go on for a hundred years and they'd be just fine. Yeah, if the government paid for say, 2 million seals killed a year, it'd go downhill fast, but stopping the hunt now is no guarantee of stopping that 20, 50, 80 years from now. (It'd also be quite illogical for any government to do, but that's not the point really.)

I understand people wanting to stop the hunt because it's morally repugnant to them. I don't understand people taking the stance that the seals are in that kind of danger. Not these seals, not today, not for the forseeable future unless the current state of the hunt is wildly and dramatically changed in violation of any sane environmental stewardship (as tenuous a cause as that may seem to some), etc etc. And for that matter, just letting the population explode to infinity... I would see that, in itself, as courting destruction (of the seals not to mention the additional environmental damage their overpopulation would cause prior to a possible or even probable population crash).

This is, admittedly, high school level biology, but it's stuff that's so fundamental when I read it and retained it that I don't think additional reading is going to void those fundamentals. I've read studies of deer overpopulation followed by crashes, for instance. "Safe" is a very relative word.

[peacebuzzard]

35. HSUS is documenting. (unspeakably cruel and horrific)

http://www.hsus.org/

[tll]

38. The tradition of hunting?

"Once the animals are killed, they are skinned and taken into the hunters' boats. The pelt is taken to make coats while the rest of the carcass is usually left behind"

I was always under the impression that "real" hunters served as stewards of the environment. Having enough respect for the animals to dispatch them as cleanly and humanely as possible; they would also take and make as much use as possible of the carcass. To do otherwise was disrespectful, wasteful and irresponsible.

Clubbing seals in this fashion (no pun intended) and taking only their pelts ranks right up there with farm-raised game birds released from their crates just long enough to be shot. It is neither sporting nor environmental stewardship. It's greed and personal-gratification serving only vanity. What a crock.

While on the subject of tradition and our ancestors doing this or that, I'd also note that one can argue about the impact of fur traders on populations. Likewise big game, trophy hunters so on and so forth. Just because it was done back in the day doesn't make it right or responsible.

[Kagemusha]

42. A dirty little non-secret in Canada is that Indian hunting is not "clean"

(And I use the term Indian only because of space issues in the subject line.)

There's a lot of stories about how 'First Nations' people had a tradition of using all parts of an animal. At one time this was true. When First Nations go fish or hunt commercial seafood out of season they are widely known to be the absolute worst insofar as environmental practices go because short of dumping toxic nuclear waste products into the sea, the government won't lay a hand on them. They can be as massively wasteful as they please because they're poor, disadvantaged, and because at least as long ago as the introduction of the musket, hunting became a business as much as a tradition. Anything but the barest number of seals killed can't possibly be used by First Nations themselves so of course they leave the carcasses to rot - they're not going to feed or clothe anyone, directly or indirectly. Those Eastern Europeans don't buy seal meat; they buy seal fur.

I mention this because if First Nations hunters don't give a damn about it, how much less so are poor whites from Newfoundland and Labrador or the Gaspe penninsula going to care about it? As I've said elsewhere, this is, niceties aside, basically a privately financed cull doubling as an economic supplement to poor areas that have seen their fisheries take a heavy nosedive over the last decade and a half to two decades. It's downright laughable to expect that our ancestors had a tradition of using all of the animal once hunting purely for pelts began. I mean, just the weight alone...! No, they're going to carry just the pelts, the part that actually gets people cold, hard cash. And won't capsize the boats.

This is most absolutely wasteful. As for being irresponsible, that depends entirely on one's view of the proper number of seals and if the population of some 6 million should be controlled to keep it from going back up to about 7 million, which it was before the hunt was resumed in earnest (which was far from an instant process given how seals had been protected for several decades prior to their population explosion following the near complete closure of the cod fishery).

However...

Nature wastes very little. Something out there eats seal carcasses. I may not pesonally have the knowledge to tell you what that might be, but leaving carcasses is more an offense to your humanity than an offense to nature itself.

As for sporting... are you kidding? Seal hunting is not done for sport. Never was! Never will be! It's done, to put it bluntly, to kill seals. Any thought that this was at all intended to be a SPORT is a total misconception. And as I said, it's really a privately financed cull doubling as economic activity. It is not a game, and Canadians have never been under any impression that it ever was.

My point is there never was a tradition of "sporting" seal hunting or "respectful" seal hunting. Hunters since the introduction of the musket to Canada have treated seals as animals hunted for profit far, far more often than not. I imagine clubs were introduced because ammunition costs money and a club is more accurate and won't damage the pelt. It has never been "real" hunting in the sense you are imagining, even when it was strictly First Nations people hunting for food and resources.

[kitty1]

41. Question: If these seals were ugly gross looking creatures;

would people in the international community be so concerned? I doubt it very much. If you want to stop the slaughter, you need to reduce the demand. Plain and simple. As long as there is money to be made in that market, realistically nothing is going to change. The bottom line is the dollar here. Why not scream at the people that are buying the pelts.

[KevinJH87]

80. so many bigger fights

I am against the seal hunt but it is incredible how much coverage this has received. Species are becoming endangered and extinct faster than ever but most species do not receive any media coverage. I do not like what is happening here but there is a need for so much more coverage for so many more cases.

[Kagemusha]

93. That's sort of my point too.

This hunt may be unpleasant but the damage is considerably less acute right this moment than what's being done to a lot of other species not getting the media attention.

Maybe those species aren't as cute though.

[Omaha Steve]

46. Sealing boat rammed their small, inflatable Zodiac

Charlottetown — The opening days of Canada's East Coast seal hunt were fraught with frustration, bad tempers and violent acts on the rapidly thinning ice of the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Hunt protesters with the Humane Society of the United States said they were shaken up on Sunday when a sealing boat rammed their small, inflatable Zodiac, damaging the vessel's propeller.

"We're in Canadian waters and Canadian laws still apply here," said humane society spokeswoman Rebecca Aldworth, who was on the Zodiac when it was rammed.

"The hunters may be frustrated and I know they don't want us documenting their activities, but that doesn't give them the right to risk peoples' lives."

Full story: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060326.wseal0625/BNStory/National/home


Members of the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) observe seal hunters from a zodiac in ice floes the Gulf of St. Lawrence Saturday. The annual harp seal hunt started today where some 325,000 harp seals will be harvested. (Jonathan Hayward/CP)

[Kagemusha]

50. Well that's not a good thing and should be punished apporpriately.

(That's for all the people who thought I was picking on the Sea Shepherd unfairly. And I genuinely believe you just do not do this, it's wrong and dangerous.)

[Roon]

55. I gotta hand it to the activists

that would make me sick being there, even if to protest it. :(

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

66. I know what you mean! congrats to THEM ! couldn't really handle it myself

I would not be able to stand and witness it.
They must have a remarkable ability to detach.

[Kagemusha]

69. Not from what I've seen, they just fume and rage.

They focus horror into anger and the anger sustains them.

If they were detatched they'd be like average people. Turn up their noses and, so long as the problem is tolerable, if not pleasant, basically ignore it.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

75. what if you were watching puppies getting clubbed to death?

What I'm saying is the fact they can even stand to be there they are very commendable.
They have to be detached in order to not walk over and physically restrain or eliminate the predators.

I mean, have you ever seen a seal at Sea World? balancing a ball?
clapping doing tricks?

They are not just "fur" harvest.
They are intelligent beings with feellings...

Thank God for activists--
their bravery may help end this atrocity.

[Kagemusha]

82. I'm not arguing they *should* be detatched, not one bit.

They're animal activists. It would be stunning if they were detatched. I was pointing that out to everyone else with my reply...

But no, I haven't seen a seal balancing a ball. Even if I did, a seal is an animal. I'm not going to confuse a seal with a human being.

...And "eliminate" the predators?... Um.

I don't get the urge to shoot killer whales because they chomp on a seal. I've seen it occasionally on tv. I just don't get that urge. Sorry.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

85. what's your point?--you're ok with seal killing?

and you've never been to a circus and seen a seal balancing a ball doing tricks?


Where are you from?

And who gets urges to shoot?
Where did that come from anyway?

Where did the word "urge" come from?-

is that like a "craving"?

[Kagemusha]

90. I've never been to a circus in my life. I live in a poor rural area, baka.

You said...

"
They have to be detached in order to not walk over and physically restrain or eliminate the predators.
"

Eliminate the predators!? Look... here's what happened. I threw you off by citing an animal (an orca, or killer whale) as a seal predator instead of man. It wouldn't compute inside your brain. If a natural predator of seals kills a seal and I see it on TV, I don't have an urge, craving, whatever, to hurt the killer whale. The killer whale is just doing what comes naturally. Preying on cute seals does not make the killer whale evil.

Now granted, human beings aren't doing what comes "naturally" by clubbing baby seals to death, per se. But I have no craving (your word) to commit murder upon these people. I may not like what they're doing, but I respect their right to life as fellow human beings.

I'm not some kid of a rich middle class family that can spend vacations in Florida and watch seals balancing balls doing tricks. My career may be in linguistics, but my rear end is parked in a fishing community that survives mainly on old age pensions and what remains of fishing and logging industries. This situation is hardly unique. There's a lot of communities in eastern Canada that has it a lot worse than here. The humans have it bad, to put it bluntly. I'm not surprised a lot of people here don't give two cents about the suffering of a cute seal they only see on TV, and don't give one penny about American and British activists vaingloriously crying to the heavens that this is an abomination.

Not that this is a credit to them. But I'm not surprised nonetheless.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

100. O.K.so you're a proud poverty stricken victim who is ok with seal killing?

You have to be kidding--to say you've never witnessed trained seals
performing.--that's funny!
Everyone has seen that- it's not a class issue or a race issue-
C'mon now!--everyone's seen it who has grown up with a t.v. in the house !
? You haven't because of poverty/deprivation?
--not buying it!
if you're on a computer right now then you're not that sheltered-
...but even if seals appeared "stupid", it is wrong to massacre them.

You may have anger about childhood deprivation -that's understandable but
cheering on the killing innocent creatures won't you help much.

One with a troubled past might do well to try and understand about idea of "compassion"
--you had indicated resentment toward those children who had advantages
sorry you feel that chidren in Florida with money somehow stole your sugar-
--maybe you carry psychological scars ?-
--I mean be careful-look at what happened to that pig farmer in B.C.--with all that buried anger-

and i'm not trying to stir your anger--just making my point-


Here's how it goes:
--hypothetically place yourself in a helpless position-
--with a stronger more dominant individual hovering over you..one who intends to harm you--
Ask yourself--wouldn't you want to be granted mercy?

Your answer is yes-
So the point is that this is how we are to treat those who are at our mercy-

it's a real no-brainer-
thank you--goodbye--
killing is wrong-

over and out-

[flvegan]

78. Speaking of detatched..

no...disconnected.

You're watching something very different than the rest of the world, if that's the case. Last year, the sealers VIOLENTLY ATTACKED those protesting and documenting the hunt. Turn up their noses, indeed.

Cherry? That's the flavor, I'll bet. No sugar added.

[0rganism]

58. Galactic Newswire: Tempers Flare as Antaran Hunters Start Terran Hunt

CLOSE POLAR ORBIT, Sol 3 (Galatic News Service) - Antaran hunters started shooting and clubbing human babies on 50:_1846:_928576GST at the start of a millenial hunt that is the focus of a tech-savvy protest by alien rights groups.

This planetary year, 325,000,000 young humans will be killed on the continents of Sol 3, where the animals gather.

Unusually warm weather means the urban centers have been reduced to a fraction of their normal size and density, prompting hunters to kill the humans individually rather than kazorching them en masse as they cluster in their cities in pools of blood.

"It's slow going. The cities are not full of humans all over the place," said Rugyeity Smupty of the Antaran Federation's humanneries ministry, which oversees the hunt.

The crackle of charged particle beams could be heard continually as hunters in atmospheric harvester craft shot the humans as they lay in buildings and then dashed over to the bodies in hopes of retrieving them before they became too cold for infrared scans to detect.

Once the animals are killed, they are skinned and taken into the hunters' boats. The pelt is taken to make clothing while the rest of the carcass is usually left behind.

At one point, a hunter, frustrated at the activists' presence, picked up a bloody carcass of a skinned human and launched it at a small collapsible orbiter full of protestors and journalists. It hit the orbiter and sank into the atmosphere, where it burned completely during re-entry.

One humanning craft impulsed straight toward the journalists' orbiter and banked at the last moment, sending a gravitic wave crashing over the observers.

The Antaran Federation says the hunt gives the local star cluster economy a crucial boost and helps keep a human population of almost six billion animals in check. The Xenormative Society of the Andromedan States has chartered a Pleiades-class interstellar cruiser to follow the hunt and is putting holofilms and VR memograms of the killings on its Galactonet site.

"It's disgusting when you float out there and look at what the humans have been through already. They're clinging on for life as it is, thanks to the effects of global warming," said the society's Oyebnecca Diocoworth. "I'm really appalled the Antaran government continues to allow this slaughter. There's no need for anyone to be out here killing humans," she told Galactic News Service from the hunting zone.

ANTARAN FEDERATION SAYS KILLINGS ARE XENORMATIVE

Prime Minister Phenstep Perhar said Antares was behaving responsibly and would enforce rules ensuring that the humans were killed xenormatively.

"Unfortunately here we're to some degree the victim of a bit of an intergalactic propaganda campaign," he said on 49:_9910:_928576GST.

Celebrities such as former Vega 2 holo star Iglackise Trobnack and ex-Nognick Apnu M'Nartlob called on Antares this week to stop the hunt.

Diocoworth repeated calls for an intergalactic boycott of Federation planetfood to protest what she said was "incredible cruelty at the hunt, including dragging conscious humans across the surface with skyhooks, shooting humans and leaving them to suffer in agony and skinning humans alive."

The first part of the hunt, which takes place near the Ognicklok urban cluster on clockwise hemisphere continent #2, usually takes about 100 to 120 Terran solar cycles to complete. This year's quotes is just over 90,000,000 humans.

The second and larger stage, on counterclockwise continent #1, starts on 52:_1010:_928578GST.

[Nihil]

71. I wish ...!

Nice post - thanks!
:toast:

[0rganism]

76. Well, I don't wish for such things, but sometimes it has to be said

I'm gonna start going GNS with more of the LBN stories; I've done one before this, and it was extremely therapeutic. Sometimes the only way I can make sense of the absurdities they contain is to magnify them to the interstellar level...

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

86. When does the movie come out?---this is GOOD !!

[Omaha Steve]

104. There is a movie project in the works

Until it gets a green light, it won't be public info. It will be a big budget item. I don't think Canada will allow them to film it there.

[Omaha Steve]

73. Activists protesting Canada seal hunt arrested

Full story: http://reuters.excite.com/article/20060327/2006-03-27T001947Z_01_N22382147_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SEALS-DC.html

Mar 26, 7:19 PM (ET)

By David Ljunggren

OTTAWA (Reuters) - A group of animal rights activists observing Canada's annual harp seal hunt were arrested on Sunday for getting too close to hunters killing the animals off the eastern coast, officials said.

The six activists belong to the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), which says the hunt is cruel and should be scrapped. This year, some 325,000 young seals will be shot and clubbed to death on ice floes, mainly for their pelts.

In addition to six activists, a freelance cameraman working for Reuters Television was detained. They were on board a small craft near the Magdalen Islands in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and they broke the law by coming within 10 meters (30 feet) of the hunters, officials said. They were later all released.

"We'll investigate, get statements and then decide whether to charge them," said Roger Simon of the federal fisheries and oceans ministry, which is overseeing a hunt which started on Saturday.



A sealer drags a seal off an ice pan during the first day of the annual seal hunt in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, Canada March 25, 2006. Saturday marked the first day of the east coast seal hunt. Canadian hunters started shooting and clubbing harp seal pups on Saturday at the start of an annual hunt that is the focus of a tech-savvy protest by animal rights groups. This year, 325,000 young seals will be killed on the ice floes off the East Coast where the animals gather. REUTERS/Paul Darrow

Copyright 2005 Reuters. All right reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[ConcernedCanuk]

89. "they broke the law by coming within 10 meters (30 feet) of the hunters"

.
.
.

Imagine activists being allowed that close to those canned hunts in the States? Activists from ANOTHER COUNTRY no less .

Cheney woulda SHOT them.

And all those Bambi Hunters, imagine them putting up with Activists messing up their hunts?

and get this . .

"the activists said a sealing boat had deliberately rammed one of their small craft, damaging the propeller."

Now how the heck does a slug of a fishing boat "ram" one of those nimble inflated craft they were using? FROM BEHIND?????

Or maybe the fishing vessel was in "stealth" mode, and the American Activists couldn't see or hear it coming . . .

I suspect the activists cut in front of the fishing vessel.

That's my thots anyhoo . .

[Omaha Steve]

95. HSUS Statement on Ramming of Boat Carrying HSUS Employees

Two sides to every story. IF they were within 30 feet, why were they let go?

HSUS Statement on Ramming of Boat Carrying HSUS Employees and Media Documenting Canadian Seal Hunt

March 26, 2006

Statement from Dr. John Grandy, senior vice president of wildlife and habitat protection for The Humane Society of the United States, on ramming of boat carrying HSUS employees and media documenting the Canadian seal hunt.

"Today, a Canadian sealing vessel rammed an inflatable boat carrying employees of The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and a member of the media in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The HSUS team and its boat -- present not to disrupt the hunt or obstruct it, but only to document the injuring and killing of seals -- was pushed atop an ice floe. A second sealing boat backed off after seeing our larger boat approaching to assist.

This deliberate attack on our boat was reckless and irresponsible and it posed a tangible threat to the lives of our people and a member of the press. Rebecca Aldworth and other HSUS crew members would only be able to survive for a few minutes if they had been tossed from their boat into the icy waters. As required by law, our boat was staying the required distance from sealers actively engaged in the hunt. Footage from the attack will be turned over to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and we expect authorities to prosecute those responsible for this calculated act of violence."




Belinda Mager 646-469-4987

[flvegan]

111. Easy. So they can sit back on the non-charges and keep them

away from the ice floes. Oh, wait...that's what they ARE doing. While investigation continues, the activists and Reuters camaraman aren't allowed back to the floes. How con-fucking-venient, eh?

Oh, and the sealing boat...had Fisheries officers on it. How conven...oh, nevermind...you get the idea.

[CHIMO]

101. Facts, figures and rules about annual East Coast hunt

Species: Almost all hunting is directed at harp seals.

Population: Estimated at 6 million, almost triple what it was in the 1970s.

Hunters: In 2004, there were 15,468 licences issued to seal hunters, but only about half of them actually took part. The industry was valued at $16 million a year.

Rules: The youngest harp seals, known as whitecoats, cannot be killed until they lose their white fur.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1143327032656&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

[rfkrfk]

103. this is not hunting, anymore than ...

taking your unwanted dog into the woods and shooting it,
skinning it,
selling the skin

better words would be 'harvest' or 'slaughter'

[Amonester]

105. When they're done protesting there, I wish they go protesting

the unnecessary murdering of Iraqi children with, at the very least, as much "passion" and determination, if not more...

Murdered Iraqi children are humans. They should make movies about them being massacred by the illegal invaders also, IMHO.

[Barrett808]

107. kick

[Number9Dream]

110. Humane - characterized by kindness, mercy, compassion

In the boonies of S. Vietnam, I saw the results of man's inhumanity (which most of you should never be unfortunate enough to see). I'm not someone who cringes at the sight of a few drops of blood. Yet, the videos and photos I've seen of the seal slaughter make even this old veteran disgusted and heartsick. How any so-called veterinarians can proclaim this humane is beyond me (do I smell a bribe). Humane: adj. - characterized by kindness, mercy, and compassion. How is clubbing a 20-day-old seal pup with a hakapik any less inhumane than smashing a puppy-dog on the head with a baseball bat? "

[Omaha Steve]

112. Morrissey supports seal hunt protesters, boycotts Canada on upcoming tour

2 hours, 17 minutes ago

TORONTO (CP) - Morrissey has joined with protesters of the seal hunt, saying he won't tour Canada until the "barbaric slaughter" ends.


"I fully realize that the absence of any Morrissey concerts in Canada is unlikely to bring the Canadian economy to its knees, but it is our small protest against this horrific slaughter," the former Smiths front man wrote in a statement posted on his website.

"As the world knows, this slaughter is about one thing only: making money."

Morrissey is the latest celebrity to voice his dissent. Paul McCartney and his wife Heather Mills ignited a firestorm when they visited Atlantic Canada in early March urging officials to step in to stop the annual seal hunt.


Full story: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/27032006/2/entertainment-morrissey-supports-seal-hunt-protesters-boycotts-canada-upcoming-tour.html

[Omaha Steve]

113. International Day of Protest against the Canadian Seal Hunt in Russia

International Day of Protest against the Canadian Seal Hunt in Russia

March 15th and 23rd were the days of protest actions at Canadian
representatives in Moscow and Saint-Petersburgh. In Moscow animal
rights activists came to the canadian embassy with a canadian flag,
which had "Shame" message on it, and laid another flag onto the
ground, placed a toy baby seal on it and stained it with read paint,
symbolizing blood. In Saint-Petersburgh the activists composed a
letter with their demands and hand it over to the Consul General of
Canada. The next day about 20 activists took part in a demo.

Commercial seal hunt exists in many countries, Russia among them. But
this year seal hunt in the Arkhangelskaya region of Russia was
abolished because of an economical reason - the hunt was considered
not profitable. But Canadian authorities don't want even to cut down
the seal slaughter quota.

Anna, the activist of the Alliance for Animal Rights in
Saint-Petersburg, says: "We fight against the cruelty and violence,
which exist in the fur industry. This kind of hunt at the shores of
Canada demonstrates all the brutality and absence of any morals in
this industry. We, like thousands and thousands of people in the
world, demand propibition of this beating of the babies. We are sure,
that anyone who has seen this cruel slauhter, would fight for the
lives of the seals".


Alliance for Animal Rights (Moscow)
http://www.animalrights.ru/index.html?cmd<147>=x-150-8160




http://www.animalrights.ru/index.html?cmd