Communities march against 'McMansions'

[sabra]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/27/mcmansions.ap/index.html

Communities march against 'McMansions'
'We're losing mixed-income neighborhoods'

DELRAY BEACH, Florida (AP) -- Livia Landry likes life the way it is in this quaint tree-lined neighborhood a few blocks from downtown -- front porches with wind chimes and potted plants jutting out into sunshine-filled, perfectly groomed green yards.

Young mothers push sporty three-wheeled strollers up sidewalks past century-old homes, chatting with neighbors about the day's events.

Lately, talk has turned to history as this seaside city confronts a growing national trend, the "tear-down phenomenon," with wealthy buyers replacing turn-of-the-century bungalows on tiny lots with so-called McMansions.

Plainly put, it's out with the old and in with the new.

Communities across the country are grappling with the issue in a mad dash to save character. From Delaware to Georgia to California and Florida, historic homes are being demolished and replaced with 6,000-square-foot palatial properties.

[ananda]

1. I hate McMansions!

This has been going on for at least fifteen years here in Houston, and still is.

Neighborhoods not historically protected are becoming so fucking ugly.

Sue

[Teaser]

4. They are pieces of shit.

Seriously, what kind of status symbol uses fucking sheet rock for its walls?

[tenshi816]

72. Your post made me laugh,

thinking about how easy it is to bash a hole through sheetrock.

It also made me think about how, in the southern US at least (don't know about the rest of the country), houses are usually built using wood for the frame, making them especially vulnerable to hurricanes and tornadoes.

In contrast, in the UK (as I learned when buying a home), houses are built with concrete blocks for the frame, then covered by bricks, and the internal walls are plaster instead of sheetrock. Try punching a hole in a wall and you'll break a hand. Houses in the UK might be smaller than the average US house, but they're built to last for centuries.

Bigger isn't necessarily better. Just the price of heating alone would deter me from having a McMansion.

[henslee]

130. You can make money but you can't buy taste.

[errorbells]

8. I grew up in West U. in the 50's+

Some people will never know what they are missing.

Our homes were small, but it was a nice place then....not now.

[Iowa]

41. It's still nice in small town Iowa...

I live in a small 1200 sq. ft house where the neighbors all know one another and keep their places up. It's kind of like living on Beaver Cleaver's street... kids riding their bikes on the streets, people walking, always very quiet. You have to factor in at least a half-hour to visit with passers-by whenever you're out doing yard-work. People don't bother to lock their doors when they leave - crime is almost nil. Work is 5-10 minutes away for most. Schools are good. My house would probably sell for $80,000 - prices are reasonable. We could use more DUers in Iowa.

[wordpix]

102. megadittos in CT-lakefront cabins torn down, 2-3 lots for 1 new McMansion

Horrible, horrible

[wordpix]

108. McMansions=SUVs of the real estate world: oil beasts

[eleny]

2. Someone built one in our neighborhood

It's around the corner and down the block. They tore down a tiny flat roofed house and built a two story monster. I call it "The house that ate Iris St". After two years or so they put it on the market for almost twice what homes in the area go for. That was last June. It still hasn't sold.

[GodlessBiker]

3. The McMansions, in turn, will eventually be torn down, too.

[Zookeeper]

6. Especially considering the serious problems...

so many of them have with mold. I would never buy a house built in the 1980's or 90's.

[oneighty]

17. New construction

that I have been familiar with in the past are way too air tight.

That construction cannot 'breathe'. Moisture is trapped in the composite construction materials and they then just simply rot and mold away.

180

[Sequoia]

26. I had no idea. I'll keep that in mind.

I live in Northern Cal where mold is king. Not only that, new housing is going up bing, bang, bong.

[sweetheart]

33. I've gotten much exposure to this recently

In building a house extension, i found that as much as i always perceived houses as impermeable to
moisture, moisture permeability is actually preferred, as it keeps moisture from conddensing inside,
and it moderates moist and dry air changes. But such things are unpainted woods, unfinished breathing
materials that our modern thinking puts plastic coatings on top of... and the rot problem you speak of.

New housing felt is a special membrane like goretex, that breathes moisture out whilst staying
impermeable to moisture from the outside. This membrane is on the outside of the timber frame
structure, behind a 1 inch air gap and a 6 inch concrete block wall. The concrete block exterior
wall is cold and the moisture condenses on the warm inner-house membrane, which then evaporates
in to this 1 inch breathing air gap that must be properly ventilated around the building.

I think there was a craze a while back, the silicon seal craze, to fill every hole, to perfect the
air-proof house, but the objective backfired as you point out, the materials needed to breathe to
release moisture.

In new house design, i've made special accord for breathing spaces, ventilation chimneys for all
interior spaces with evac-fans, as i can't stand stagnant air... toxic house syndrome, where the
house's interior air has trapped so many gasses and dusts, that the air quality is actually harmful
worse than second hand smoke.

I've learned that a house is like a giant pair of lungs. It is supposed to breathe constantly,
for the life of its design, and as much as the human mind perceives it as an enclosed box, the
air currents see another picture entirely if the housing stock is to last.

[AndyTiedye]

40. They Made them "Tight" to Try to Reduce Heating/Cooling Costs

and this applies to houses of all shapes and sizes.

[sweetheart]

42. replacement technology

Yes, "Tight" as you say. But we have membranes
these days, and a century of mistakes to learn from
in badly ventilated spaces.

Houses need to chimney air naturally, replacment of
the air in the room at least 3 times per hour. You
need to not suffocate like in a submarine, and everyone
counts on this natural ventilation. Then add to the mix,
sythetic carpet fibres. Shine a green lazer across
your bedroom with the lights out, and look at all the
dust particles you breathe every night, synthetic fibres,
they don't have any 100 years of the cancer-causing of those
carpet fibres.

I think that the materials force the architect to look at
2 ventilation equations. One is for the structure itself,
that its components are either impermeable to moisture,
or capable of becoming wet repeatedly without harm, termites,
wetrot, dryrot, whatnot..

The other, is providing an ideal atmosphere for the monkey
cage, whilst providing maximal efficiency of protection
from the outer atmosphere. So in that sense, glass and
thermodynamic technology has evolved a gazillion times
in the recent years.

Its near the point, where you can get a house design
you like in your computer software package, and press
"print", and the building arrives to spec on delivery
date at the site.

The housing revolution could cut energy burn radically
as new house designs are a total replacement technology
much more energy efficiency, long term potential ecology. :-)

[Zookeeper]

65. Another issue with new construction and additions...

is that the new composite building materials can contain formaldehyde and other chemicals that are unhealthy to breathe in an airtight house. Same goes for new carpeting and some new furniture.

[wordpix]

103. yeah, I was wondering what holds the chipboard together---toxic stuff, huh

[Zookeeper]

119. Glues, resins, formaldehyde....

If you ever work with the stuff, sawing or sanding, wear a very good dust mask. Same for particle board and plywood.

[tenshi816]

73. Very interesting post.

I'm especially interested in what you said about "ventilation chimneys for all interior spaces with evac-fans". Is this something that would need to be done at the time a house is built or could it be added later? I'm asking because I'm thinking of getting a new kitchen installed and would like to explore whether it's possible to incorporate this into the design.

[sweetheart]

87. most easily when built

However, you can build in a 6 or 9 inch ventilation chimney in to your new
project. There are evac fans, humoursly, designed for cannabis grow rooms,
that make no noise. http://www.growell.co.uk/p/1640/Acoustic_Fans.html

My biggest complaint is that those nasty noisy little fans turn on when you use
an interior space... so you can position the special silent fans up the
tube and get the airflow you desire without the noise.

http://www.bsee.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/3186/The_silent_killer.html
With a new build, as this article points out, a heat pump system
can be installed to shift a continuous flow of fresh air in to
every space of the house without noise (if you're careful about
the ductwork installation).

Just even a heat pump system will usually not have installations for
closets and utility spaces. These are best ventilated with a traditional
fan on a timer, so that the air can be ejected from a room, the stale
stench of a closet whos air is never ever exchanged actively, yet is
filled with clothes that need to air out.

(on edit: a trick with air flow is to put a high ceiling in your new
kitchen. Then warm (read: used) air rises up in the kitchen and is
ventilated out subtly at the ceiling. When the ceiling is too low,
air does not have enough space to follow its natural cycle from the
floor to the ceiling (in you're using underfloor heating, all the better),
heck the new DIY electric underfloor at screwfix 'll do a kitchen www.screwfix.com.

Then you are a fish in a room of liquid air, with fresh air bubbling up to the
top of the tank 4 feet over your head, and plenty of volume of fresh air around
your head, the most important area. Most older houses, in climates that rely on
natural air ventilation, have a higher ceiling, remember how the transom, that
window over the old doors used to open, that a room would ventilate above its
door. So a convenient way to make your new space very very nice, is to jack up
the ceiling by 1 yard, and lift the windows as well that the square inches of
visible sky increase, and the sense of light, height and a space for kooking smells
and all to escape..)

[tenshi816]

88. Thank you - very useful information. n/t

[mitchum]

11. In light of their shoddy construction, they will fall down

[CrispyQ]

24. ...or burned down by angry, cold, hungry masses. --nt

[wordpix]

104. or owners of the future will be renting rooms like the boarding houses of

old

[Dulcinea]

148. Or they'll just fall over.

The new construction is so shoddy. These hideous dwellings dot the landscape in Atlanta, & they fall over as fast as the longleaf pines when we have summer storms. We get tornadoes & hurricanes here from time to time, & I picture some tacky McMansion flying away like in "The Wizard of Oz."

[Redstone]

5. Zoning laws, anyone? Pretty simple.

Redstone

[Ivan Sputnik]

7. Zoning laws only work

if the local government people who can grant "variances" aren't in the pockets of the real-estate developers.

http://www.neighborspac.org/new-jersy-town-ruined.htm

[ThoughtCriminal]

13. Wow - that's one cheezy house

Is that real? Somebody have a gable fetish?

[CatholicEdHead]

27. Looks like a photoshop to me

I see too much obvious cut and paste.

[mopinko]

34. me, too. np

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

48. That house isn't

realistic it's missing the other 3 garages LOL

[yorkiemommie1]

51. our local city council great at granting variances

changing zoning and ignoring our city's general plan.

the peasants are up in arms, though and many are working to throw the buzzards out.

[shrike]

85. This is where local involvement can really make a difference

I've worked with a lot of Plan Commissions and Zoning Boards, and most of them are good people (really). Almost none of them are elected, most receive only a small honorarium for their time and spend long hours reading materials, and in meetings. If any of the ones I know are on the take, it all must be squirreled away in Swiss bank accounts because it sure doesn't show on their lifestyles.

The laws (in our state) are so complex, even when it comes to denying or approving a rezoning, a lawyer must be involved every step of the way. And the public NEVER attends municipal meetings. Ever. Unless they're upset about something'; then they show up, call the board members liars, thieves and crooks, then disappear into their lives again once they get their way.

Nobody likes to sit through those meetings (least of all me) but the best thing you can really do is get to know the people on these boards, approach them in a non-hostile manner and TALK to them. They're not ogres (well, most of them aren't.) Most of them do want feedback, and would prefer not to make their decision in an empty room.

It also helps to familiarize yourself at least somewhat with local laws and local government, and how said laws and government work. They'll respect you for that.

[MountainLaurel]

145. Ditto that.

:applause:

[Blue_Tires]

23. no chance

because if Florida is anything like the local governments I've lived under in GA, VA and MD, then the
1. state legislature
2. county planning board
3. city council/mayor's office
4. Chamber of Commerce
are all CHOCK FULL with either developers, construction magnates or businessmen with vested interests in overexpansion of commercial/residential properties...commercial developers, especially the wealthier ones, were one of the first interest groups to realize some years ago that instead of funneling a ton of cash to lobby local pols for lax zoning/building standards laws and other friendly legislation, it would be MUCH cheaper and effective in the long run to just get elected to office themselves...Now they can pass their own laws, and profits have never been greater...

fwiw, I admire the protest, but it is more than a day late and a dollar short--the time to try to stem the tide was at least 10 years ago...now, like the fundie school boards, the pro-business political machine is too firmly entrenched...

[wordpix]

105. zoning would be nice but in my red region of CT, heaven forbid P&Z would

restrict house size.

Also, this is a region of big old New England houses that had lots of additions built on through the years as families expanded. People wanting to build those friggin McMansions would say, "They're traditional."

[Zookeeper]

9. Most of the modest lake cabin/cottage/homes in the

Mpls./St. Paul area and small towns up in the "northwoods" have been torn down and replaced with McMansions that are completely out of character for the setting and usually too large for the lot.

My "favorite" is a ridiculous, huge, "French Chateau" McMansion on Lake Bemidji. :puke:

[VaYallaDawg]

14. We call those faux chateaux down here.

[Zookeeper]

19. LOL! Perfect! I also like "Starter Castles." n/t

[NashVegas]

44. Plenty of McCastles Here

http://realtracs.com

Do: search for property > I-65 to Charlotte Pike --> min value 2,000,000 max value 8,000,000

[tenshi816]

74. That was an entertaining property search,

if a little creepy. Who needs a 38X25 foot living room?

At least some of the houses had acreage with them instead of having the house take over the entire lot. There was actually one of them I liked (although way, way, way out of my price range!), but it was built in 1899 on 7 acres.

Still, all too much house as far as I'm concerned. I can only be in one room at a time anyway.

[trogdor]

114. 38X25 would be fine...

...if that were the ONLY living room. Most people would kill each other for a chance to buy a house like that. Unfortunately, home designers have this nasty tendency of compartmentalizing houses. So you have a living room, dining room, rumpus room, bullshit room, etc. Why not make it one nice big open space (or two)?

38x25 is 950 sq. ft. I have more than that (net) on my main floor, but it's broken up into four rooms. Why?

[wordpix]

106. lots of McCastles here, too--they are totally wrecking the countryside

[VaYallaDawg]

82. I like that one too - have to keep it in mind!!

[FredStembottom]

57. I'm in SW Minneapolis

and have one right behind me now. It stretches from the edge of the sidewalk in front to the edge of the alley in back. It also almost makes it to the edges of the neighboring yards and is 3 STORIES HIGH!!!!

No yard. None at all. And, like 5 bedrooms - so it's supposed to have an entire family in it. Where do the children play?

And the way it looooooooooooms over all the rest of us (with yards) is hard to take. We have been here 21 years but already are planning our escape as this horrible trend gathers steam.

BUT WE LOVED IT HERE!!!!! We bought and stayed because it was reasonable houses and yards with unpretentious people who seem to inherently understand the idea of "enough".

And don't get me going on the giant, boxy, retail and condo thingummies they are ALSO wedging onto sites that were once little 1-story stores and cafes and gas stations.

And every one of these outrages gets labeled "in character with the existing neighborhood" by the zoning commission.:wtf:

It's like sooooo much these days: just say the exact opposite of what's true. Just say it and then do whatever the f@uck you want.

[susanna]

63. Something to think about...

I live in one of the first (maybe THE first) suburbs of Detroit. Ours is an unpretentious, blue-collar, integrated neighborhood with nice houses and nice people. Things are kept up and we are happy. Sometime in the 20s, someone thought to build himself a big brick "estate" on four lots. Great idea at the time, I'm sure, and an absolutely beautiful home - built-ins everywhere, commercial kitchen, cedar closets, leaded glass windows, etc., etc.

Currently, the latest owners are trying to sell it in 1) Michigan, a REALLY depressed market and 2) on four lots, all taxable by the city. It hasn't moved.

Moral of the story: any home that is far too much for its neighborhood will always suffer the worst when trying to sell. Your neighbors are no exception. May they learn their lesson, expensive though it may be...

on edit: oops

[llmart]

78. Come to Northern Macomb County.............

if you want to see how ugly McMansion subdivisions can be. I literally get sick to my stomach when I see these things going up.

The root of this problem is the meme that real estate is going to be your security in your old age. People don't get the part about how a house is only worth what someone is willing to give you. There won't be anyone able to afford to buy or maintain these monstrosities soon. Hell, some of the people who live in them can't afford them! I hope they all lose their shirts and the houses are torn down, but that won't be in my lifetime.

[Zookeeper]

120. And there is an increase in empty-nesters...

sometimes I think about adding on to my house, when it feels like we're bursting at the seams. But, then I look at how many empty-nesters and single first-time buyers are looking for smaller houses. Who the heck is going to be living in those exurban monstrosities in ten or twenty years?

[llmart]

127. I am an empty-nester.......

and believe me, the older you get the less you want to have all that extra space to clean and maintain, etc.

How is it that when I grew up in the '50's my family lived in a very small ranch with no basement and there were 7 children and 2 parents? We had one bathroom. We spent a lot of time out of doors. We never felt "deprived" because we didn't have our own rooms. We learned to share with others and to this day all my siblings and I are good at sharing. Our kitchen was miniscule but we all sat down to eat every night together and had home cooked meals. We all had to pitch in with everything. No, we weren't the Waltons by a long shot, but neither are any of these two children families that live in 6,000 square foot mansions. If anything, they have more problems than we did.

[Zookeeper]

133. I know a lot of people my age who grew up..

as part of a large family in a 1950's three-bedroom rambler (not me, I'm an only-kid). I'm not sure how they managed, but they did and didn't seem to suffer for it.

Our family of five moved, about three years ago, from one of those ramblers (with very tiny bedrooms) into a slightly larger one (four tiny bedrooms with a large family room). Being an asocial type, it feels crowded to me at times, but I think it's better for my kids than a situation where everyone goes off to their own corner of the house with their own TVs and computers.

[tenshi816]

75. "Where do the children play?"

Indoors. God forbid the hothoused little darlings should want to go outside for some exercise.

[FredStembottom]

79. Great term: hothoused children!

:thumbsup:

[tenshi816]

80. Thanks - I started thinking about them that way

a few years ago. It's not just a phenomenon that happens in the US; we have them in Britain too.

I'm sure I didn't coin the term, but it came to me when a friend of mine and I were discussing a mutual acquaintance who dislikes me a lot. One of the reasons she doesn't like me is because I allow my boys to play outdoors in our yard without me constantly being out there with them. Why, I even let my older son go right out our front door and walk the dog on the moor by himself (he was nearly 12 at the time). Oh, the horror!

This same woman has a son slightly younger than my 9-year old son. Her son isn't allowed to play outside without his parents being present, even if other neighbour children are there. I'm not talking about playing in the road or anything because we all live on a short dead-end road with no through traffic. I'm talking about someone who won't allow her kid to play with the other neighbours' children, won't let him outside and shuttles him from one after-school activity to another every day.

She's by no means the only person I've met like this. There's an entire generation of suburban and exurban children growing up who don't know what it's like just messing around, playing outside and getting dirty, and doing kid things without their parents hovering nearby.

[FredStembottom]

140. If you are still monitiring this thread........

Wow. I thought that kinda thing was a USA only (or even just middle-class Minnesota) phenomenon!

Our kids are older teens now, but it was a near-scandal the way we let them just be loose in the neighborhood. They weren't causing trouble, it's just that they didn't have official "play-dates" set with the other neighborhood kids.

I will say, however, that something has now worn off....the neighborhood is now full of kids just running around like kids. Gets better each year. But go back 15 years and the children were practically on leashes!

[trogdor]

116. If only...

...too hot is as good an excuse nowadays as too cold or too rainy. People up here in the Lake Effect Zone shouldn't even know what SEER stands for.

[MountainLaurel]

146. In some subdivisions, they're not allowed to

If you get a chance, the book Last Child in the Woods has some great insights on this issue. He talks about communities that were promoted as being a great place to raise a family, where children aren't allowed to play in the woods or near the man-made pond because the homeowner's association is afraid of lawsuits.

[Zookeeper]

136. SW Minneapolis has been a "hot" area for a while.

I'm sad, but not entirely surprised, that the McMansions are being built. The irony is that the qualities that made the area desirable (aside from location) are being destroyed by the people who want to live there because it's desirable...:crazy:

[susanna]

62. We had the same problem in Michigan...

Lots of lakes, most built with cottage type dwellings. I grew up on a lake like that. Since the 90s, folks have bought up the lots and put huge homes on them. It's ruined the summer vacation feel of the lakes.

I will never get over a conversation with a gentleman I worked with who had grown up in the city with sewers and such. He moved to a formerly rural, now a suburban, lake because "the natural beauty is amazing." He then proceeded to tell me he hadn't had his septic cleaned since he moved there. I asked him how long that had been...? Eleven years. He said he could just pour RID-X down it and that was enough.

I responded to him: "You are the reason I moved off the lakes."

on edit: typo

[Zookeeper]

68. Oh yeah...

and the people who build on a pristine lake after tearing down the trees and shoreline vegetation, then put in a manicured lawn treated with chemical fertilizers and herbicides. Then they wonder why the water isn't clear anymore....:eyes:

[corporatemedia]

10. PICTURES of Tricky Rick SANTORUM's "McMansion" in VIRGINIA

The original source for PICS of his Ol' Virginny Home

Santorum Cybergate

http://santorumcybergate.blogspot.com/2005/01/where-does-tricky-ricky-really-live.html

[saigon68]

18. He is a Pervert

[Auntie Bush]

43. Can't say much for the landscaping!

[wordpix]

109. these f**$$ing repukes love to tear up Va. farmland & horse country

for their ugly McMansions.

[mitchum]

12. Keeping up with the Joneses when the Joneses have no taste

[slackmaster]

15. Most homes on the street I lived on from '63 - '66 are now McMansions

I lived the Bird Rock, an old part of La Jolla, which is a suburb of San Diego. Bird Rock was developed in the late '40s with mostly comfortable small beach style bungalows. I lived in one as a small child.

The house I lived in is one of just a few that have not been replaced by 2-story "stucco fuckos" as my architect friend describes them.

The reason for the phenomenon is rising property values. That cozy 1,429 square foot 3 bed/2 bath home with hardwood floors sold for $377,000 in mid-1993. It is now estimated to be worth around $900K.

[Zookeeper]

22. I think those McMansions also drive up the property taxes...

for the old homes that are left, which is one of the reasons so many old "up north" cabins and family resorts are being sold by long-time owners (sometimes for generations) who just can't afford the taxes.

So, the people who could experience the beauty of a northwoods lake by renting a mom and pop cabin are now cut off by some obscene McMansion that is used a few weeks a year. Not, to mention that the owners of the McMansion usually start expecting city amenities and luxuries pretty quickly...so much for "that" northwoods experience!

[Blue_Tires]

25. hello, slack

MrBenchley's first name is robert? i did not know that....

[slackmaster]

36. No, I don't believe that is so

Or rather, it would not be proper for me to give you a straight answer. If I do know that kind of information it is not appropriate for me to post it in a public forum.

Robert Benchley was a famous comedian, mostly on radio. He had a fine sense of humor, great writing skills, and a kindly good humored nature.

Google him.

[Blue_Tires]

38. ok, my mistake

thanks

[regnaD kciN]

76. He was also the father of Peter Benchley...

...the late author of Jaws and The Deep.

On (sort of) the same subject, Robert Benchley wrote The Off-Islanders, which was later, and very loosely, adapted into The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!

[silverweb]

49. I know Bird Rock well!

My son went to Bird Rock Elementary in 5th grade and we lived within walking distance of the school.

That was some years ago, of course. :D

I loved those bungalows and the whole area, but haven't been up there in quite some time. Awful to think that those darling homes have been replaced with modern monstrosities... and the prices! OY!

[Charlie Brown]

16. I used to go to Panama City, FL a lot

The old city area had a lot of stately, ornate old estates that seemed to beautifully complement the waterfront with gothic architecture and huge oaks covered in Spanish moss. It all seemed like a pricesless part of the area's history. The last time I was there, it looked like a lot of them were being torn down for tacky new "mansions" and office-parks. Kind of sad, really.

[QC]

50. Yes, they're building one on Beach Drive right now

that looks like the sort of thing someone who just won the lottery would build. Ten Corninthian colums across the front, three stories tall, and covers almost the entire lot. It's hideous and ostentatious and I cringe every time I drive past it.

[tanyev]

20. LOL! I thought it said "Communists march against McMansions"

Need to go get my eyes checked.

[NC_Nurse]

21. I hate that shit!

Why does ANYONE need a home that huge. It's disgusting. I always want to ask them when their 12 foster children are due to arrive. They are ruining a lot of neighborhoods in Atlanta that way and they are building them in my neighborhood in Chapel Hill too. Blech!

[superconnected]

29. They used to have more taste and build their large homes

out further and in neighborhoods made up of only large homes.

Now they're taking over the cheaper properties with the views and some without views. Mostly the views though. And also downtown properties...

I owned a cleaning firm and had to deal with these people. I closed it in december literally because I couldn't stand my customers.

I could tell you horror stories of the way they treat people. Immigrants especially. I listened to hate immigrant rants with nearly every customer. My few asian customers who were rich, were great though. All other customers were white. No blacks, no east indians etc.

I wouldn't live in one of those homes, or neighborhoods simply because I wouldn't want them for neighbors.

[Lorien]

28. It's happening here in my Orlando neighborhood

I live in the downtown historic district, and soon one will wonder what's "historic" about it. Charming 1920's arts and crafts bungalows are falling about one a week now-all replaced by monstrous McMansions that crowd the buildings around them and look entirely out of place-that is, until every other cottage gets destroyed and replaced by hideous monuments to conspicuous consumption. :puke:

[rox63]

30. You might be interested in

the 'Not-So-Big' concept of housing: http://www.notsobighouse.com/

[iconoclastNYC]

31. Property rights!

If I buy some land I should be able to do what ever I want to do on it. That's the American way!

So ridiculous how many people think this way.

[Lorien]

35. The rights of the wealthy few trumping the rights of the middle class

and poor, in this case. When I moved to my historic neighborhood ten years ago I did so thinking that the renovation trend would continue -but I didn't foresee the demolition trend. Quaint tree line streets of moderately sized historic homes are fast disappearing-some areas look like McMansion developments in the exburbs already! :grr:

[NashVegas]

45. They Aren't That Wealthy - That's the Thing!

People are buying far more house, some of them, than they can afford. And they're in debt up to their eyeballs.

[Zookeeper]

60. And from what I've heard from Realtor friends...

many of them have no furniture.

[wordpix]

112. good, these owners deserve to sleep on the floor

[Lorien]

66. In my neighborhood they are

my 1600 sq. ft unrenovated bungalow is worth $450,000. The McMansions are going for over a million around here-and they'll never hold to a hurricane.

[AndyTiedye]

52. The Wealthy Have REAL Mansions on estate-sized lots

"McMansions" are called that because they are the cheap imitations that
are sold to the middle class (who can barely afford them in many cases).

[Lorien]

67. If they are sold in nicely positioned "historic" neighborhoods they go for

a million plus. They are cheaply built, but you need to make over a quarter million a year to afford them in my area.

[Realityhack]

126. True but...

an actualy well built home of similar size on that same property would be worth more and an estate size property in the same area would be worth several million.

I hate McMansions. I think calling them the SUV of the realistate world is just about dead on.

[DUHandle]

147. I can’t fully agree

with the property rights argument and have to side with the strength of local standards.

If you had the right to do anything you wanted with your land, you could accumulated a junkyard, burn tires, pour oil or chemical waste on your land and say to hell with the consequence.

Those consequences just don’t impact just you and your land, they impact your neighbors, who could suffer inconvenience and the loss of property value, and the community at large, which will have to eventually have to clean up your mess.

[Odin2005]

32. Mcmansions are popping up aroung the edges of Fargo-Moorhead.

:puke:

The oldest residential areas here are the most atractive, with cute houses with PORCHES (not many McMansions with those) and streets lined with old elm trees looking like the butresses of a great, green gothic cathedral. If anyone wants to know the logical endpoint of the McMansion phenomenon, read Asimov's robot books, a society that considers liberty to be cutting one's self off from the rest of the world, coddled by mechanical slaves.

[CatholicEdHead]

37. They have taken over the west and southern sides of Grand Forks

Even though the east side near the Red River took a beating during April 1997, there are still some classy houses around town.

I hear that West Fargo is pretty much a bedroom community.

Drive anywhere around the Twin Cities and you will see more and more McMansions farther and farther out each year.

[Zookeeper]

69. "McMansions farther and farther out each year..."

No kidding! I moved here 18 years ago and I'm shocked at how quickly the Twin Cities have sprawled. Most of those exurban areas are just dreadful, especially the neighborhoods with the absolutely identical houses and townhouses. They are the slum housing of the future. I have to question the sanity of people destroying farmland to slap up a tacky McMansion when gasoline is $2.50 a gallon and going up, and rush hour traffic has become a nightmare.

And why would you want the burden of heating and cooling a 5,000 ft. house? Not to mention the environmental impact of that kind of wasteful living.

[saigon68]

70. Its the status IE to keep up with the Joneses

[NickB79]

110. I'm in the southern suburbs of the Twin Cities

Burnsville to be precise, but right next door to Lakeville. Now that is a wonder: townhomes and McMansions for as far as the eye can see. Hillsides covered with them like kudzu.

[Zookeeper]

121. "like kudzu.."

Exactly! Woodbury, Blaine, Maple Grove...and on and on it goes.

[TrogL]

39. Could I see some pix

I live in an older neighbourhood that people are re-developing (me included), but most of us are taking an existing, well-built if older house and upgrading it with insulation, plumbing, wiring, windows etc. You end up with a small, affordable house in an area with fairly low property taxes.

I'd shudder to think what maintaining a McMansion would be like.

[justabob]

47. I have some photos of my neighborhood...

if you are interested. It will take me a while to get them uploaded. I wish people were just renovating/up-grading around here, but no. Out with the old, in with the new.

[wordpix]

118. I've seen cottages 'renovated' that become huge

[mcscajun]

92. They're too ugly for me to photograph...

There are plenty in NJ, unfortunately, and while I've driven past them, I'd never thought to photograph them. Now I just might, despite what I said above. Their primary distinguishing characteristic is their INappropriateness, for the lot, for the neighborhood, and in the mish-mosh of architectural elements that add up to NO Style.

The reason they’re called McMansions is because even though they’re big and expensive, they look cheap. They’re badly proportioned, they have fiberglass columns instead of wooden ones, Garden State Brickface “stone” instead of local stone, “synthetic” slate instead of wooden shingles on the roof and so on. They’re badly sited, badly landscaped – they're just plain ol' ugly.

They’re generic 21st century “housing” that never fits in the local context. For example, Darien likes uptight, New England, restrained architecture. McMansions come from the National Homebuilders Convention tradition of the House of 27 Gables.

Good architecture makes you feel good. These architecturally challenged buildings make you feel bad.

"When you live in a high entropy society, as we do," Jim Kunstler says, "the entropy manifests in many ways: toxic waste, poor air quality, social alienation, epidemic obesity, odious popular culture, AND immersive ugliness."

http://massengale.typepad.com/venustas/2004/03/

Some pictures and more detail can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3225775

[justabob]

46. Sounds like my neighborhood in Dallas

The bulldozers have been busy around here. Within the next year or so, the exiting character of my neighborhood will be a memory. (I should also say that there is not much character in the neighborhoods of Dallas, generally speaking. Mine and a handful of others are all) It is stunning to me what people are willing to do. It isn't even that I mind having new development, it is that the new structures are so very different than what exists here now, and what exists is perfectly good size-wise as well as condition-wise. The new development looks totally out of place, and may as well be lined with neon because they stand out so much (literally and figuratively). This part of town was originally built up in the 20's and 30's mostly in the craftsman and prairie styles, tree lined streets with a nice canopy over the road in the heart of the city. I look around and think if this(the new stuff) is what people want, why don't they just buy out in Plano or Frisco (outer suburbs) Why do they have to destroy the history/character/attitude of this older neighborhood? It makes me crazy. I have been doing a photography project to document the destruction. Maybe that will be useful to fight the developers. :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Further proof that the people with more dollars than brain cells and

all their taste in their mouths are taking over America.

:puke:

[kestrel91316]

54. Here in Los Angeles they are known as "Persian Palaces".

Neorenaissance monstrosities with chandeliers, huge windows, two-story entries, curved driveways, block walls topped by wrought iron fencing complete with spikes, house built nearly to the lot line..........Typically these are erected in neighborhoods with 2 or 3-BR post-WWII cracker boxes in need of or recently remodeled. The people who live in these things must like to be able to look down on the poor little neighbors.......Oh, and they most often fill their driveways up with large new black import sedans - the really expensive ones - and one given to each child at the age of 15.

[otohara]

55. Near University of Denver - Entire Neighborhoods

being torn down - two homes torn down, one custom home up. This woman I know who was one of the first recently had the ugliest "Tara" type home built right next door. She's furious and some what of a hypocrite.

[FooFootheSnoo]

56. I live in a suburb of Tampa

they are ALL over the place. I always tell my friends up north that Florida is nothing but strip malls and subdivisions.

[SLCPUNK]

64. I'm outside of Tampa too

and they are everywhere.

The thing about most of them is that they are obviously cheap construction. You can tell from far away they are not high quality.

[Jamison]

58. How do people afford them anyway?

Around here I'd say you'd have to make at least $300,000 a year to afford these McMansions. I don't know anyone who makes that kind of money personally. Maybe they're all Powerball winners.:shrug:

[Longhorn]

59. Austin just passed a moratorium on "McMansions" last month.

The square footage of a new home can be no more than 40% of the square footage of the lot or can increase no more than 20 percent of the original square footage. And the height is limited to 35 feet.

The builders and developers cried foul -- I guess someone told them that real estate profits are guaranteed investments -- but the city council listened to the neighborhoods -- at least for now.

[wordpix]

113. Austin is keeping up with its rep as a good place to live

[LostinVA]

134. That is truly excellent!

[peacebuzzard]

61. My neighborhood has propagated them like termites. It used to be woods

around here for several miles around me. And these nasty monstrosities started creeping in over 10 yrs ago and were so successful that the developments came fast and furious in over a decade. All the old woods have been bulldozed & the deer, birds and wildlife have disappeared. Multiple subdivisions of these cathedrals on handkerchief lawn have stripped these rolling east TN hills and the plastic, paper mache', asphalt and cement is everywhere. I still live on the old main road while all these subdivisions dead end in cul de sacs. My next door neighbor ( --we have small old farm houses and two acres between us and we still have our roosters ...hers is really huge and crows loudly & early - 4 a.m).....I hope the new neighbors can hear him.

Most of the old neighbors on this old country road have sold or are currently selling since this past year it is just us and the subdivision people. I have no where to go to right now, (I have five rowdy farm dogs, two chickens and a cat). It certainly has ruined what was once very peaceful. The old neighbors I have left on the main road are senior citizens and in poor health, I am sure they are taking this much worst than I.

What really looks bizarre is the old country church cemetery where the McMansions have built right up to the edge.

This is what is happening in Knoxville, TN today. Sad. The whole state is like that from what I have seen.

[Zookeeper]

71. My mother's hometown is about 30 miles from

Knoxville. What we hear is that it has turned into a McMansion bedroom community. I visited an old mountaintop cemetery there about 20 years ago and wonder if it's still around. From what I've seen on-line, a lot of them are disappearing.

As far as your situation with your noisy animals and the new subdivisions...that is also an issue in the sprawing exurbs around here. There are family farms that have been around for generations, then a subdivision springs up next door and the new residents start complaining that the farmer's hogs stink
. :eyes:

[shrike]

83. Isn't that amazing?

They move into the country and want to turn it into the suburbs.

That complaint about "stink" is nothing new. I just spoke with some people who live in a rural part of Indiana, and somebody just built a monstrosity down the road from them. And the damn thing is lit up like a shopping mall, day and night. So much for the nice, country nights.

I am also peeved about people, quite frankly, who buy a home in these new developments and then want all development to stop, now that they are there.

[peacebuzzard]

90. From East Tennessee's hills to Memphis plains are gaping & gutted holes

filled w/ concrete and plastic creating these new tinsel towns and Disney Worlds everywhere.
The same goes for Florida (just spent a day and evening in Sandestin and I felt like I was at Disney World--Sandestin is touted to be a premier golf and bedroom community)
Tennessee and Florida have no state tax so many retirees are escaping here and there. The poor working masses have to pay excessively high state sales tax (almost 10%) in Tennessee.

I have been a resident here for 18 years and in these new subdivisions I have seen a revolving door of neighbors come and go every few years, sometimes less. The U.S. society has become so migratory and transitional, I read somewhere that the average length of stay anywhere is somewhere between 5 to 7 years.

In my mother's homeland of Brazil, the migration is less in the older neighborhoords. The residences still get passed down to heirs. We still have our apartment that has been in the family since the condo bldg was constructed over 50 years ago. I know most people don't have the same neighbors they did when they were kids, but when I go to Brazil, I see the same kids I used to play with, now all in their 50s, and with their descendents.

[Zookeeper]

137. That breaks my heart...

My visits to eastern Tennessee as a child from Detroit, were the reason I fell in love with the natural world.

[peacebuzzard]

91. dupe--(my connection hiccuped)

[Skittles]

77. McMansions are absolutely sickening

shame on the people who build them AND the people who buy them

[1932]

81. A really smart book that covers this issue:

The Health of Nations: Why Inequality is Harmful to Your Health
by Ichiro Kawachi, Bruce P. Kennedy

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156584582X/sr=8-1/qid=1143555842/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0913486-6351016?%5Fencoding=UTF8#citebody

[shrike]

84. I used to love Delray Beach

It felt like a real town, unlike Boca Raton right next door. God only knows what they've done to it now. (Right before I left, they walled off the beach, so you could no longer sit at Boston's, the beachside tavern, and look at the water while you had a beer.)

[Zookeeper]

122. I've heard that Pompano Beach is being razed...

for new shopping and housing. I never found it terribly charming, although it did have a certain retro sleepy quality. Now, I realize what the alternative is.

[KansDem]

86. McMansion here...

Just thought I'd post a photo of what many of us are seeing done to our neighborhoods...

[Zookeeper]

123. I thought I knew "ugly".....

NOW I know ugly! Do the owners even think that's attractive? And does it sit on a flood plain?



:wow:

[KansDem]

141. As a wise sage once said...

Class doesn't come from a wallet

[Blue_Tires]

142. well said n/t

[Realityhack]

132. all of a sudden

some of the mcmansions near me aren't looking so horible.

[bikebloke]

89. One possible fate.

And when the economy collapses, I wonder how many McMansions will be divided up to house mulitple families.

[gauguin57]

93. I can't help but think that someone with vision would make money ...

... developing neighborhoods that are reasonable and affordable ... smaller contemporaries and Cape Cods, like the ones I grew up in, with small yards ... houses that aren't so huge and impossible to take care of.

Houses for singles, for couples, for people with one or two kids who just want a house they don't have to spend all their time cleaning, yards that don't take hours to mow ... a little spot for a garden and for the kids to play. Houses for people who don't want to go into debt up to their eyeballs in order to have a pleasant place to live.

Not only would such a developer make money (those houses would be great demand, I suspect) ... he or she could feel GOOD about what they did for society.

[mike923]

94. I'm single and have a "McMansion"....

it's on 5 acres, and it's way more than i need. My favortie activities are taking care of the lawn and the gardens. After work these are great stress relievers. Contrary to the assumptions in this thread, i'm not rich, not in debt up to my eyes, and actually grew up well below the poverity line.

I assume there are others posting in this thread who have similar set ups, but i can see where it is fun to bash people we don't know anything about.

[peacebuzzard]

95. I think if you have 5 acres you are not in a subdivision.

I thought the McMansions discussed here were the subdivisions....I don't mean to bash anyone or where they live, I just think the juxtaposition of a huge home on a small piece of land miles away from services is a waste, especially if the inner city is deteriorating. A huge home inside the city proper is one thing, or on a huge tract but I apologize to anyone who lives in a McMansion subdivision. I have acquaintances who live in them, and the upkeep is the same as older homes. It upsets me that inner cities deteriorate while this flight to the subdivisions is taking place, gobbling up woods and wildlife clean air etc....

[mike923]

96. Correct. I don't live in a sub division.*

[Bridget Burke]

97. Sounds like you live in a "mansion"...

Or maybe just a really big house on 5 acres. (Sounds like a great places for parties.)

Many McMansions built in Houston replace smaller, older homes that fit their lots. The new houses leave about 2 inches between each outside wall & the property line So pretty, treelined streets become dark corridors.

McMansions are also built "Outside the Loop." Some have large lots, but many more are jammed together in small subdivisions, surrounded by bald prairie.

[mike923]

111. Sounds like i had the wrong impression ...

and got defensive. Yes, my house is great for parties, i roast up a pig each summer for my coworkers and family/friends. I wouldn't call it a mansion, just a nice newer house in the ex-urbs (a term i think my place falls in).

Once again, sorry for getting defensive. I really like my house.

[Realityhack]

129. Gald you like it.

I am glad you like your house and get to enjoy gardening and such. Someone posted this wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion that gives a fairly good idea what people are talking about. These are mostly on tiny lots and the prevailing features are waisted space and horible almost invariably fux astetics.

[justabob]

101. That doesn't sound like a McMansion

I don't know *exactly* what the definition is, but in my world a McMansion has house (usually with two or three architectural styles horribly blended) from lot line to lot line and no yard to speak of, maybe a flower bed and some groundcover that doesn't have to be mown. If you have a five acre lot, that doesn't qualify. Maybe your house is exactly like the ones we are bashing, but the simple fact the house isn't bulging off the lot and totally over powering the lovely bungalows on either side makes it not a McMansion, but simply a mansion, or possibly an 'estate'. (though really I would expect an estate to have at least ten acres)

[Realityhack]

128. Don't know about that.

Around here a small mcmansion on a 1.5 acre or so lot can go for 1 million plus. On a 5 acre lot it could easily be 2 and thats assuming all new construction.

So in this area you either have quite a bit of money (ie are rich) or your in debt up to your eyeballs if you own such a home. Even with two incomes a million dolar morgage with more money already put down is quite a bit.

Obviously their will always be exceptions to any rule but statisticaly I think you are in the vast VAST minority. And as I said either you are extreamly well employed or could not afford a McMansion in my area, I don't see a middle ground there.

[Bridget Burke]

100. Cottage Living Magazine features smaller homes....

Plenty of older places, nicely fixed up. But also new house plans...

www.cottageliving.com/cottage/homeplans/0,21316,,00.html

[hedgehog]

98. Somebody likes McMansions or they wouldn't be a problem

Most zoning codes have restrictions on how much of the lot can be covered with construction and associated rules on setbacks from lot lines, etc. Just add restrictions such as New York City has about leaving airspace for the neighbors. It's not right for someone to come in and build a house that places his neighbor's house in permanent shade.

[1932]

99. Mortgage lenders like them!

[justabob]

107. Easier said than done

It is just like everything else. A few big builders/developers with truck loads of cash can crush neighborhood associations and the like with no problem.

[Lorien]

138. Some states do the bidding of big developers-they ignore any zoning

codes (if there are any). There's one street in my area that's lined with oaks and beautiful old homes from the 1920's. Developers bought a Prairie style craftsman home and a cape cod cottage and plowed them down to build massive stucco eyesores that come within inches of the property lines and leave no room for trees. I can't tell how badly out of place they are-they totally ruin the look of the neighborhood. I'll try to take some photos this week if I can. :-(

[pitohui]

115. i'd rather live in a macmansion than a historic home any day

be careful what you wish for, you might get it

a dear friend has to deal w. the historical society because he lives in a historical home, trust me, a macmansion would be cheaper, more energy efficient, and it would get the damn busybodies out of his life

me, think i'll stick w. cheezy modern construction and have the freedom not to have all kinds of busybodies, snoops, and pocketpickers in my business

[CatholicEdHead]

124. Newer Construction McMansion

You can build a newer home with modern techniques and NOT make it oversized like the McMansions or block after block of look-alike townhome complexes. You can make it more efficiant with a small enviornmental footprint.

[Realityhack]

131. Or you could get something inbetween.

there are homes that are not strictly historic that are still not mcmansions. Even (beleive it or not) new construction that isn't mcmansions.

You are presenting a false dicotomy. And yes I know how much of a pain the hesterical districts commision can be.

[Lorien]

139. I live in a historic home and have had no problem with "busybodies"

while renovating it. I have a couple of friends who own McMansions. One had a wall in his kitchen collapse the first time it rained for most of a week (the insulation somehow managed to get soaked)bringing down the cabinets on that wall-china and all. He also had a leak in his dining room ceiling because the builders had failed to line the upstairs shower before they tiled it. My second friend's McMansion developed cracks around all the window frames on two sides of the house and the chimney due to excessive "settling". Eventually the foundation developed a noticeable crack as well. He had to move and sell at a loss.

Don't even get me started on what happened to my friend Jose's big new home during hurricane Charley (mine didn't get a scratch-his? Well, let's just say that the torn roof, siding and blown in windows wiped out his entire at and book collections for starters...)But hey, enjoy your "freedom" with that cheesy construction!

[Zookeeper]

143. "bringing down the cabinets...china and all.."

I can't even imagine. Did your friends contact the builder?

[Lorien]

144. Oh yeah-he was PISSED!

they did come and repair it all since it was only a month or so after the home was purchased, but my friend moved out a year later. He was never quite comfortable in that home after the wall episode.

[wordpix]

117. I read an article about a new development of only small homes

These are very well built homes less than 1000 sq. ft., some around 600-800 sq. ft. They are built with very good materials, craftmanship, and are fuel sippers not guzzlers. I couldn't find the article but here are some sites on net:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/4770029993/104-4498077-6148712?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.natalieplans.com/plan1.htm

http://www.nmfilm.com/locals/bulletin-board-post.php?id=196

[AX10]

125. You could rally against them, or just wait for them to collapse.

The building "standards" these days are quite low.

[hexola]

135. I hope they get stigmatized!

Helps the custom home market and the old/classic home market!

[rucky]

149. The crazy thing about McMansion dwellers is...

in one community near where I live, It's about 2 years old and there are For Sale signs posted on every other yard. The neighbors all pretty much say the same thing - their houses are falling apart, so they're all moving to the next Stepford community that's popping up across the street.

Freaky, huh?