WaPo: 'War' on Christians Is Alleged

[deadparrot]

The "War on Christmas" has morphed into a "War on Christians."

Last December, some evangelical Christian groups declared that the religious celebration of Christmas -- and even the phrase "Merry Christmas" -- was under attack by the forces of secularism.

This week, radio commentator Rick Scarborough convened a two-day conference in Washington on the "War on Christians and the Values Voters in 2006." The opening session was devoted to "reports from the frontlines" on "persecution" of Christians in the United States and Canada, including an artist whose paintings were barred from a municipal art show in Deltona, Fla., because they contained religious themes.

"It doesn't rise to the level of persecution that we would see in China or North Korea," said Tristan Emmanuel, a Canadian activist. "But let's not pretend that it's okay."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/28/AR2006032801632.html?nav=rss_world

[rodeodance]

1. oh, for crap's sake. Only sheepie would believe this!

[jukes]

3. i'm THIS close

to making some fantasies of martyrdom come true...:mad:

[shadowknows69]

46. Amen and hallelujah to that

n/t

[radfringe]

82. My Jesus can beat up your Jesus?

or is it our own little version of a Secular war -- fighting it over here so we don't fight it over there?

so which version will come out on top? We have Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Catholics, and Russian Catholics.(and other variations)

We have Conservative, Reformed and Orthodox Judism.(and other variations)

and in this corner The Protestants -- Adventist, Annabaptist-Mennonite, Anglican, Baptist, Calvinist, Church of God, Episcopal, Evangelical, ICOC, JfJ, Lutheran, Methodist, Moravian, Mormon, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Quacker, Research Centres, Varia. (and other variations)

Where do the Muslims, Hindus, and Buddists (and other variations) fit in?

Sorry - in my opinion - this is a war created by a small fragment of the religious community who think they own the only "CORRECT" version of religion and are trying to shove down the throats of the rest of us... it's no war - it's a hissy-fit

p.s. I want a bumper sticker that says WWJH? (Who Would Jesus Hate?)

[LaurenG]

2. See how they spin everything

They are waging war on others and projecting their agenda on the rest of us. Shame on all of them. Karma, karma karma. :shrug: Isn't this a free will Universe?

[Jawja]

99. Yes. Didn't they declare "war"

on the rest of us with Pat Buchanan's call for a "holy war" or something to that end? Didn't the slimy Ralph Reed define the terms of the Christian Coalition's agenda as "guerrilla warfare" and referenced "body bags?"

If there is indeed a "war on 'Christians'" it is because they started it.

[edbermac]

4. Running scared; they sense what's gonna happen in November

Start whipping up the troops!

[BlueEyedSon]

5. It's a war on fundamentalism, of all stripes. And it's a good thing!

[kegler14]

6. Gosh

you know I thought I had noticed all the churches disappearing. You just don't see them in the U.S. any more now that everybody hates Christianity so much.

[manic expression]

64. Yeah,

and it's too bad that so many public officials are going so far as to attack Christianity! I mean, there are so few Christians in the halls of government these days....

:sarcasm:

[bullimiami]

7. there is a war on liberal thinking and they are waging it.

liberals believe in live and let live but it seems like some people want to start a fight because they want everyone to think like they do.

they are serving us. bring it on.

[primavera]

86. Um, not just on liberal thinking...

... but on pretty much any kind of thinking.

[drm604]

91. Exactly.

You put that perfectly. To these people, thinking is the enemy.

[ender]

8. what about the good news in the war on christians?

i mean, look at all the schools we're openning and the electricity.

[grytpype]

16. heh heh

[Inland]

31. Hah! nt

[SlavesandBulldozers]

76. nice

lol.

[calmblueocean]

9. No excuse for this but insanity.

Who is in the White House? Who dominates Congress? They won't even elect an atheist dogcatcher, and yet they complain about a War on Christians? Unbelievable.

[Ready4Change]

10. Hell yes I'm fighting Christianity.

They come to and preach at my door every other month. They ask me if I've accepted THEIR savior. I am asked if I go to church, why don't I go to church? Every single day I am barraged by their bumper stickers, their church signs, their advertisements on TV, Radio, Billboards, Newspapers, Online. They are in the news trying to shove THEIR holidays on all stores, THEIR beliefs into our nations laws, THEIR behaviors on our representatives and national policies, and on the world as a whole.

I am under attack BY Christians. Damn right I'm fighting back.

[silverweb]

61. Well said!

Every word you say is true and I agree completely!

[Exiled in America]

106. You're not fighting "Christianity." You're fighting fundamentalism.

Since not all christians ask you to accept "their" savior, or go to church, or barrage you with bumper stickers or have church signs, or advertise on TV, Radio, Billboards or newspaper, nor shove "their" holiday on stores, or "their" beliefs into laws, or "their" behaviors on the world --- since not all christians do these things, you can't really be said to be fighting "Christianity."

What you are fighting is religious fundamentalists extremism. And you probably fight it in all its forms.

[NashVegas]

11. This is Pure Media Marketing / Positioning Strategy!

And that needs to be repeated all over the place.

I read it in Radio & Records back in the late 1980s:

Premise 1: in order to win you must have a war.

Premise 2: if there is no war, create a war.

Premise 3: if there is no enemy to fight a war with, create an enemy.


Radio employed this strategy to create enemies, for their on-air positioning statements. They made other radio stations the enemy and portrayed it as a David/Goliath match. They made enemies of different aspects of radio - commercials, talkative DJs - and then connected the two together: "Station X is all commercials." "We don't have chatty DJs like Station X," etc.

We've seen politicians do this for the last 10-15 years, and now these fundie cocksuckers are doing the same thing.

[Jawja]

100. Interesting post.

Like the corporate media is waging a "war on truth." Why is there a calculated and organized war on truth in America?

Because the corporate media is waging a war on truth, they are the enemy to all of us who love America because hiding the truth is destroying America as we know it; the "free press" guerrillas are now the bloggers and the info sites and the forums (like this one),who are the insurgents against the assault on the truth.

Fighting the "war on truth" should be shouted loud and clear as a front and center campaign of all of us who love America.

on edit and afterthought: perhaps not a war on "truth" as much as a war on FACT. The corporate media has been waging a war on FACT for several decades now. Of course, calling it a war on "truth" is much more provocative.

Case in point: George W. Bush has commited a felony against the American people and violated his oath to protect and defend the Constitution with his warrentless spying. This is a FACT. This is TRUTH. But within days of this revelation, the corporate media entertained us with two sides of this FACT. They gave a forum to Repugs who came on MSNBC and Fox and CNN and spun the FACT into an uncertainty: was what he did really illegal? In FACT, yes. But the war on truth brought us uncertainty, and a result, debate.

The FACT of his violation of his oath of office has been covered over by the smoke bombs thrown in the war on truth.

[AlCzervik]

12. ABC news did a "Closer look" on this last night, the fundie faithful say

they're been used by the GOP----no shit!

[megatherium]

83. wish I'd seen that.

The evangelical community is finally realizing they've been had. This could get real interesting.

[AlCzervik]

84. here is the article from abc world news tonight

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1778011

[megatherium]

85. thanks! nt

[LiberalFighter]

108. They weren't being used by the GOP!!!

They allowed themselves to be used by them. They weren't forced!! They are the ones making the demands.

[Bridget Burke]

13. The Washington Post has just heard this bit of propaganda?

Concerned Women for America was bleating about the War on Christmas back in 2003.

Searching Religious Right sites will confirm the "War" has been going on for years, now. Of course, I doubt the Washington Post wants to look to closely at those guys. They are too close to power now.

[grytpype]

14. It would be a good idea but I don't see it happening.

What would be even better is if the Christians started warring against themselves like they used to.

[BootinUp]

15. Don't try to adjust your monitor

We will control what you see and hear....

:crazy:

[David__77]

17. There's a bigger war on atheism.

The right not to believe is under attack.

[Zhade]

50. Even from a few 'liberals' on DU.

NT!

[manic expression]

66. Well,

when you have 8 states that BAR atheists from holding public office right in their state constitutions, it's an attack that's been going on for quite awhile. It's an attack that is as disgusting as it is wrong.

on edit, here are some of them:

South Carolina
"No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being..."
Article 4 Section 2

North Carolina
"The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God...." Constitution Article 6 Section 8

Maryland
"That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty... nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come." Bill of Rights: Article 36

There's also Pennsylvania, Arkansas, Massachusetts, Tennessee and Texas. There may be more.

[LiberalGuy000]

67. thanks!

I was just writing to you to ask for that information!

[manic expression]

69. No problem

here's the rest of them, if you're interested:

Arkansas
"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court."
Article 19, sect. 1 of the 1874 constitution

Massachusetts
"As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: herefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily." Declaration of Rights: Article III

Pennsylvania
"No person who acknowledges the being of God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth".
Declaration of Rights Article 1 Section 4

Tennessee
"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." Bill of Rights: Article 9 Section 4

Texas
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." Article 1 - Bill of Rights: Section 4

[NYC]

73. You can't even testify in court?

That's absurd.


Arkansas
"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court."
Article 19, sect. 1 of the 1874 constitution

[freefall]

74. Wow! I had no idea. Now I understand why when I joined the Army and

listed my religion as "None" I was counseled at least three times. I was either called into an office or someone was sent to my duty station to discuss my choice and try to talk me out of it. At the time (1980) I was a little surprised and somewhat amused. Until I saw your posts, I had no idea that so many states codified the requirement that one believe in god. After 40 years of being "fallen away" I have recently joined the Unitarian Universalist church. They don't require belief in god to be a member. Good thing cuz i still don't.

Thanks for all the info, manic expression. I must admit I am still surpised by it. :wow:

Peace,

freefall

[Zhade]

90. Thank you for pointing those facts out.

NT!

[eallen]

103. All those laws are null. The Supreme Court has ruled the 14th amendment...

No longer allows such nonsense.

Of course, now that the Supreme Court is looking more and more like a branch of the religious right, we might see some of those decisions rolled back.

[tsuki]

18. The war on Christians is the war of the Fundamentalists against

established churches. The Fundamentalists covet the property and assets of mainstream churches, like the United Church of Christ, and send infiltrators into congregations to cause trouble and eventually cause enough of the congregation to leave so that they can take over.

Rich Scarborough's "War on Christians and the Value Voters in 2006" is a diversion. Claiming to be the victim, the fundamentalists now have the cover to move against other religions.

[Journeyman]

19. But if the nation is some 80% Christian. . .

it would seem there's a lot of self-loath among that sect.

[superconnected]

40. It's the fundies. There are far more sects that aren't fundies

who recognize there is nothing "Christian" about the fundie beliefs.

These people are using their version of "Christainity" for their war against gays, foreigners and liberals - Christian or not.

[Exiled in America]

107. Fundies don't accept 79% of that 80% as "Christian."

Just becuase they call themselves "chrisitan" doesn't mean anything to the fundamentalists - they would simply call them "false prophets" and every bit as much a part of the "war" on true believers.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Why is this publicity stun news? As I said in another thread, I think

I will put on a conference entitled "The Christian War on the World". We will have workshops to look at the Crusades and Inquisition, etc. We will have speakers to talk about the trauma of having 'missionaries' knocking on their doors and Bibles in hotel rooms. Can anyone suggest a speaker who will provide enough name recognition to get the Washington Post and all major networks to cover my conference?

[superconnected]

39. Because of the scary places the Christian taliban can go with it.

[DUHandle]

21. Jesus pulled the handle on the fire alarm

[Demit]

22. Oh criminy! "You guys have become the Jews of the 21st century," said

Horowitz, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington. AND they've got Phyllis Schlafly, former professional anti-feminist, now apparently a "Christian" leader. Throw in a Navy lieutenant, a military chaplain "who prays in the name of Jesus." And the great persecuted majority wurlitzer winds up for another earsplitting round of pure horseshit.

[tlsmith1963]

72. More Like *Liberals* are the New Jews

They blame us for everything & use us as their punching bag. It's disgusting how liberals are treated.

Tammy

[MadHound]

23. Are Christians being eaten by lions?

Are they being killed for their beliefs in this country? Are they un-represented in the corridors of power? Are their beliefs and practices being ridiculed by a sizable portion of the populace? Are they being barred from living where they want, going to school where they want, or from practicing their religion where they want?

The answer is NO. In fact in all of the cases I mentioned above(OK, excepting the lions bit), Christians are excelling, and always have in this country. In fact, in numerous cases, it is Christians who have persecuted the non-Christian in this country, and continue to do so to this day.

Stop with this whining victim complex, it is misplaced and abrasive. Trouble is, the brain dead RW fundie sheeple lap this shit up like mother's milk and come back for more. I have never, ever seen a group of people with a more misplaced victim mentality than these. Utterly astounding, and disturbing also.

[Solly Mack]

24. LOL Have these folks ever considered the contradictory message

in "The US is a Christian Nation"

and

"Christians are persecuted in the US"

lol

[shance]

25. I have seen it all. Well if Tom Delay says its so, then it must true.

Unbelievable.

[underpants]

27. Christophobia

NOW you have seen it all.

[anotherdrew]

26. seems to me they started the culture war, now they wanna whine about it?

mind control, it's all nothing but mind control

[happyslug]

28. Lets repeal the laws legalizing Christmas!!!!!!

People tend to forget that during Colonial times it was ILLEGAL to celebrate Christmas for Christmas was viewed a a PAGAN holiday (To celebrate Christmas was a four Schilling Fine in most Colonies).

In fact the US Government did NOT even take Christmas off till 1837, when the present Commercialization of Christmas as a time of Gift-Giving started.

Given that these laws were viewed as being part of the Common Law (Do to Puritans making Christmas illegal during the English Civil War, 1640-1650) laws had to be passed to REPEAL these fines and other bans on celebrating Christmas, thus all we have to do is repeal these laws legalizing Christmas and it is again illegal as it was during the time of the American Revolution and the Constitutional Convention (and the first Congress that passed the Bill of Rights).

[Howardx]

29. only your cash donations can help us

win this war!

[dave29]

30. Yay! Another war to lose

Vietnam, Drugs, Iraq, Ideas, Chrstmas, Christians

[Malikshah]

32. As said before...when they bring back the lions and start

tossing in folks... then we can talk.

[yellowcanine]

33. Convenient. Allows the wingnuts to "recycle" the "War on Christmas"

templates on their websites. I always knew the wingnuts were intellectually lazy. I guess they are physically lazy as well.

[superconnected]

38. It's actually their nature to declare jilhad on everything they don't like

[E-Z-B]

34. From Savage Love

"And finally, to Rob in Albany who felt my aside was proof of my intolerance and hypocrisy: Joking about Christianity isn't evidence that I'm intolerant—hell, I'm perfectly willing to tolerate Christians. I have never, for instance, attempted to prevent Christians from marrying each other, or tried to stop them from adopting children, or worked to make it illegal for them to hold certain jobs. I don't threaten to boycott companies that market their products to Christians, and I don't organize letter-writing campaigns to complain about Christian characters on television."

[0007]

35. The freepers will love this one. I wish I had Tom DeLay pictures

to sell 'em.

[CatholicEdHead]

57. By putting Delay dressed as a Catholic clergymember

you have two for the price of one as Delay's fundie Protastant sects have a extreme dislike for Catholics.

[BiggJawn]

36. "Value Voters"=BIGOTS.

"Family Values"=Hatred of Gays and STR8 single parents
"Protection of Marriage"=No weddings for Gays
"Guest Workers"=Mexican Slave Labourers
"This is a CHRISTIAN Country!"=Let's burn Atheists and Muslims at the stake!

Xians=80% PLUS of the population
Atheists=MAYBE 5% of the population

How the fuck can 5% successfully prosecute some kind of culture "war" against an 80% majority?

I really think a LOT of these "Christians" need to take a LONG ride in the "WAHHHHHHHmbulance".

[superconnected]

37. Since it's a war on Christians, they have a right to kill non christians

the term "murder" is dispensed, when it's called war.

At least that what some ppl here say.

That is where they are going with this.

at least they came out and finally coined the term - "war on christians". Now doesn't that justify killing everyone else.

"White evangelicals make up about one-quarter of the U.S. population, and 85 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. But three-quarters of evangelicals believe they are a minority under siege and nearly half believe they are looked down upon by most of their fellow citizens, according to a 2004 poll."

Fear and paranoia from the bigots of society. Since there's only 1/4 of them in our population, I really doubt they honestly won an election or have a mandate on anything.

[ima_sinnic]

41. oh boo-hoo, poor widdle misunderstood small-minded

persecuted hate-mongers -- I feel so-o-o-o sorry for you -- NOT!
"Jews of the 21st century," says the old wingnut David Horowitz (whom I well remember as a fake hippy back in 1968 when he was editor of Ramparts, which was actually kind of a good left-leaning rag as I remember, talk about mental problems!!) -- sheesh, melodramatic much?
The next time these poor misguided foolish pests show up at my door to shove their hateful and UNWANTED beliefs in my face I will answer the door dressed in full combat gear and tell them they've strayed into enemy territory and they better get out quickly while they can.
Bring it on, scumsucking bozos!!

[Rocknrule]

42. Claiming that Christians are persecuted in America

is like claiming that preps and jocks in the average American high school are persecuted

[TrogL]

43. Where's the beef?

"persecution" of Christians in ... Canada,

Odd that they don't give any examples.

During Christmas season, there's a life-size Christmas manger scene smack-dab in the middle of the Alberta Legislature building. Same with city hall.

[grytpype]

44. Ecrasez l'infame!

[GOPFighter]

45. I grew up in a Fundie home

Being persecuted gives Fundies a hard-on!

[LiberalFighter]

109. Then all Fundies in Indiana should be arrested when they are in public

It is against the law in Indiana to be in an aroused state in public.

[shadowknows69]

47. All religious extremists

want to be either a crusader or a martyr for their god. If the situation doesn't already exist they'll imagine it.

[young_at_heart]

48. "Us against Them" is a very powerful tool for extremists

This tactic has been used forever and it works well so this will probably cause the fringe people to "go to war".

[theobscure]

70. we should acquaint ourselves with this tool

If we don't take up the "fight" for reason and reality against their faith and fantasy soon, all will be lost. It's time to give up on the notion that faithful people are going to eventually choose sanity over insanity. At this point in evolution, it's either because they don't want to or they aren't capable of it. In this day and age, why should it still be their world?

If they want to proclaim war then we might as well engage them. What do we have to lose that isn't looming right in front of our eyes at this very moment? I'm not talking about burning churches or taking to violence, that is the way of faithful people not reasonable people; I'm talking about starting to speak in plain terms, regardless of how much offense they feel or feign. We need people to run for political office who are willing to come out of the religious closet.

If they want to bomb or devolve the world back to a time that more comfortably fits their primitive mindset, they should at least incur some resistance.

[pro_blue_guy]

49. Sigh. The world will never change.

This is just another example of how religion is the cause of so much tension and hatred. It's pretty sad, actually.

[superconnected]

68. It it weren't religion it'd be another form of bigotry.

that 25 percent of fundies (actually less as there are plenty of evangicals that aren't fundies), have already shown us that they don't like gays, single mothers, immigrants, liberals, the united nations, etc. etc.

If they actually used the christian religion, they would be dead wrong in all of their positions. Instead they are using their own bigotry.

No religion needed to supply bigots with bigotry. These people are just using it as their current excuse to hate people.

[mitchum]

51. "Alleged" belongs at the beginning of the headline

Onward, Chri$tian whiners
Waah waah waah waah...

[HuffleClaw]

52. what a complete crock

'the forces of secularism' ? i guess it must be their quarterly fundraising drive time.

[IndianaGreen]

53. These Christian groups are no different from the Taliban

and they are just as dangerous. Why don't the mainstream denominations condemn them for the heretics and bigots that they are?

[geniph]

54. Now, just wait one frelling minute!

These guys need to get their stories straight. Either 80% of Americans are Christian, making this a Christian nation, or they're a persecuted minority. They can't have it both ways, and if they truly manage to believe both of these statements at the same time, then their heads need to just explode from the pressure of cognitive dissonance.

[greekspeak]

55. Maybe there is a war on SOME Christians...defensive war

Non-Christians, gays, women seeking abortions, the poor, those who can think for themselves, world leaders etc...all attacked constantly by fundamentalist Christians. Sure, there is a war against these Christians--a defensive war. Surely these knuckle-dragging hatemongers don't expect the people they attack to just sit idly by and just take the hate they dish out. They remind me of the playground bully that hauls off and punches another kid then runs to teacher and says the one he hit hit him. If these freaks would mind their own damn business and worry about themselves, maybe there would be no "war on Christians."

[CatholicEdHead]

56. I guess the memo was to take his year-round

and not just from Thanksgiving to New Years.

[tomg]

58. My favorite comment in that article

is the line "three-quarters of evangelicals believe they are a minority under siege and nearly half believe they are looked down upon by most of their fellow citizens, according to a 2004 poll." Well, if they are looked down upon, it isn't because they are Christians but because they are idiots.

Incidentally, I really wish the article had referred to them as fundamentalists instead of evangelicals. Evangelicals, as a group, come from a very broad political spectrum, including some great progressives. Fundamentalists are something else. When I hear Evangelicals like Jim Wallis of Sojourners, I am hearing one of the more politically and morally progressive voices in the country. I am no longer a practicing member of any faith, but I really appreciate the Sojourners e-mail when it comes.

[brentspeak]

59. "Values Voters in 2006"

Funny that the word "voters" is included when there happens to be midterm elections approaching.

I think the religious right organizations need to have their tax-exempt status reviewed...

[BlueManDude]

62. It's always something - there's always another boogie man n/t

[Cha]

60. I went to the library today

and saw a "Christian" magazine with a picture of bush and bono staring back at me. I promptly turned it around, is that a "war on Christians"?

I'm like Gandhi.."I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ".

All Christians are not bad just the loud, obnoxious, hypocritical ones.

[LiberalFighter]

110. Should had taken it to a little used part of the library

and stashed it out of the way where it wouldn't be found

[NoodleyAppendage]

63. How about the "WAR ON SCIENCE AND REASON" ???

These Christofascists make me sick. They are NOT BEING PERSECUTED! If anything outspoken atheists, such as myself, are in a VERY SMALL MINORITY and are attacked for our position of being free of the bonds of organized religion.

Xtians have been whining for centuries about science and reason, not because they are downtrodden but because they know in their hearts that science and reason are a threat to their nonsensical dogma.

This "War on Xtianity" is nothing more than a ploy to get out the Christofascist vote in 2006. PERIOD.

J

[alarcojon]

65. Classic Right-Wing Whining

What a bunch of losers.

[tlsmith1963]

71. No, They Have It Wrong

It's a War on *Fundamentalist* Christians. And if they don't like it, tough. They can't get along with other people. What are we supposed to do, accept the fact that they are divisive jerks?

Tammy

[Timbuk3]

75. It's a war I'm not ashamed to fight

The sub-heading, "Conference Depicts a Culture Hostile to Evangelical Beliefs", is accurate. I am absolutely opposed to living under the rule of evangelical law. We ousted the Taliban for the very same reason.

Real Christians should be on the front-line of this "war" on the phony "christians" who claim to speak for God, who claim that God "told" George Bush to invade Iraq, who want the Bible to supplant the constitution...

These people aren't "christian" in any meaningful sense of the word, or of the religion. They might fairly be called "Leviticans", or possibly even "anti-Christs" for their rejection of the teachings of the New Testament.

Every time I hear someone say "But Bush is a 'good christian'" I shudder. The reign of George W. Bush has deeply divided not only Iraq, but America. Is this a "christian" man?

Every time I think about Sam Brownback and his "constitution restoration" amendment, that would literally make the constitution secondary to the Bible, I fear for America.

We *ARE* at war with the extreme religious right. We shouldn't deny it. We should embrace it.

[theobscure]

77. "real christians" are enablers

If we are going to get on "war" footing (which I'm certainly ready to do), it's time to stop mincing words. Religious moderates legitimize and thus empower religious fundamentalists. I fear religious fundamentalism; but I disdain religious moderation.

Choosing to be partially delusional (religious moderation) is no more reasonable than being completely delusional(religious fundamentalism). The reason "real christians" are so silent about fundamentalism is because they fear their own exposure. Their precarious "house of cards" belief structure constructed through painstaking compartmentalization renders them incapable of challenging fundamentalism anyway, even if they wanted to.

To "fight" the kind of constructive "war" that doesn't diminish reasonable people and result in bloodshed, religious moderates must be the "enemy". "Weapons" like persuasion, debate, reason, logic, and science can win over religious moderates in a tough and harsh, but victim-less fight. To try and get anywhere with those same bloodless "weapons" with a religious fundamentalist is an impossibility. Real weapons are all a religious fundamentalist will ever understand. I prefer the former to the latter.

Win the war over religious moderates and the chance to marginalize religious fundamentalists and create a sane world for those who choose to live in one, becomes a hopeful proposition. Continuing to choose political correctness in regard to religious moderates and hand wringing in regard to religious fundamentalists will only result in the destruction of us all.

[The Wielding Truth]

79. Rove is throwing out his net of propaganda. Wrapping the sensitive

in a religious prosecution complex.Some self proclaimed Christians love crusades. It's just that crusades are not usually healthy for the rest of the world.

Thing is,I love the teachings of Jesus.He fought only against the tax collectors and warned the rich how difficult it is for them to reach heaven unless they forsake their riches. He loved all even his enemies and reached out to the lost and lowly.

Really to be Christ like is what most of us, even the atheists, try to be.

We don't really believe in war unless we have absolutely no other choice and then we sometimes give our lives to save others.Life is too precious to be horded or to be wasted abusing others.

Crazy how we support the teachings of Christ and it's followers,but we don't support liars, murders,and greedy manipulators.

It's just that some of the people who call themselves Christians are not.

[theobscure]

81. well actually.....

It's the Christian Fundamentalists that have a better conception of what Christ was supposedly like. They've actually read the Bible from cover to cover, many times over. Christian moderates go to the more "liberal" churches that repeat the same select few "kinder, gentler" passages of the Bible over and over again, Sunday after Sunday, year after year that creates a false impression of Jesus Christ.

There is precious little in the Bible that Christian moderates could reasonably conclude as being moral. Given that the Bible was systematically debunked in terms of authenticity, accuracy and consistency as far back as the late 1700's by Thomas Paine, what exactly is it that Christian moderates are hanging their hat of faith on? It rests solely on chosen self-delusion supported by an illusion of Jesus Christ framed from selective passages out of a book that they themselves know in some compartment of their brain is immoral, inaccurate, inconsistent, and illegitimate.

The end result is people who alternately, or sometimes simultaneously, are enemies of faith and reason on the basis of whimsy.

[The Wielding Truth]

87. I believe your stance is based on the old testament and not the

actual words of Christ Jesus as related by Paul. What you are proposing are not actually the teachings of Jesus,know as the Christ Savior. They are his background and knowledge of the Jewish laws and stories.

If you notice, his views evolved,changed, and formed after his travels. These are the true lessons he wanted to show us. Read his words and the spiritual God reveals himself. If it is whimsy to you than you have the right to your opinion. The Old testament stories are not the teaching of Jesus. Christian's temper all that history and folklore with the light of His passionate acceptance.If your post was just observation and you wish just to understand,remember that religion has so many views and some teachings,that are misunderstood and misused.

Many religions include the childhood schooling of Jesus,that he carried as a basis to build his faith until his fate took him to his Father.

If you base your faith on His formal Jewish studies and you understand the Bible in Hebrew, His language, then you will have a basis for seeing where he was and maybe how he came to His new redeeming view of mankind.

But if you profess to be Christian you must live His words not his educated past philosophy.

I know this is hard for many to separate these,and as a follower of Jesus you would know his words are not what is included in the espoused beliefs of many self professed Christian deeds.

Redemption,forgiveness,rebirth and a path to salvation is a good message. It is truly that message that Jesus brought,and that's what we hang our belief on.

[theobscure]

92. plenty of offense in the New Testament too....

The bottom line is what conclusive, or even compelling, evidence do you have that Jesus Christ was the Son of God? If you don't have any of that, which you don't, it would be just as reasonable to make pilgrimages to Hawaii and worship Tony Robbins.

If you need allegorical illustrations to construct your moral code of ethics, why not choose some children's books that don't send the kind of mixed messages that are found in the Bible? The fact of the matter is that worshiping Sam I Am and communing on green eggs and ham is no less rational than worshiping Jesus Christ and communing on bread and wine.

Yes, I'm aware that I have the natural right to not indulge in such insanity. Yes, I'm aware that you have the natural right to choose to indulge in such insanity. The problem is that your expression of this natural right compromises my civil rights; while my expression of this natural right does no such thing to your civil rights.

It is ridiculous in this day and age to hold to the contention that without the "morality" instruction of the Bible; we would be helpless in regard to constructing our own. In fact, it is precisely because we cling to the words in this ancient, inconsistent, unauthentic, and mostly immoral book as the foundation for our code of ethics, that we are currently morally adrift. And principles like salvation and everlasting life, do nothing more at this point of evolution than to devalue life and give license for the destruction of life.

The World cannot afford these kinds of indulgences into fantasy, whimsy, and baseless belief anymore. It is time for reasonable people to make a choice between political correctness and survival of our species.

[The Wielding Truth]

93. You have given no credence or respect to guidelines that are

in many lives precious. Christians, hold these and many personal truths close and are inspired to many higher goals.

You are probably afraid that these beliefs will some how restrict your right to believe or not believe in any creed.There are many life lessons to be learned in all stories pasted down to us even the children's tales like Aesop's Fables.

If you can't allow those who have different views to freely believe.How can you ask for the same freedom.

You are sadly unaware of the nuances of different religions and beliefs.
You cannot dismiss any religion as fantasy, whimsy, and baseless belief. For reason will tell you that survival of the Earth depends on appreciation of nature and the goodness of it's people.
Here's another silly belief that is the core of preserving this world and not just the species.
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
I don't feel that Christianity is being observed by those who would start wars for profit or power. I understand that your view of Christians is not who they are supposed to be.

Keep your eyes open for one of the real truths. You will probably be surprised how whimsically it will appear.

[theobscure]

96. No credence should be given to personal truths that....

have no basis in reality and run contrary to reason. Sure, upon close examination there are kernels of useful stuff in the Bible; but the same can be said for millions of books. Thousands of people, who are proven to have existed, also offer valuable tenets to influence human behavior to the positive. None of these other books or people, however, require blind faith, a subjugation of reason, a devaluing of present life, hold specious, discriminatory, and eternal favors over the heads of followers, and threaten immoral, unjustified, and eternal suffering to non-followers.

Again, please kindly point me to even compelling evidence that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Please kindly point me to an effective response to Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason", which systematically proved the Bible to be a fraud, over 200 years ago.

The nuances you speak of are merely different chosen delusions. I trust that you are one that has never called anyone a liar or doubted the legitimacy of someone else's faith. Since you proudly affirm that evidence is irrelevant to belief; I trust that you afford every one else this same luxury.

If George W. Bush wants to believe that he is a messenger from God, he is as equally entitled to his chosen delusion as you are to yours. He has no less evidence for his claim than you do for yours, in relation to God. If fundamentalists want to literally interpret the Bible and act accordingly; they are equally entitled to their chosen delusion as you are to yours. They have no less evidence for their claim than you do for yours in relation to God.

If you don't want your ridiculous beliefs challenged, stop challenging others. Quit pretending that your religious beliefs can be arbitrarily justified without evidence; but others cannot. Stop being a hypocrite, until and unless you can provide proof that your interpretation of religious faith is favored by God.

[The Wielding Truth]

97. Obscure,there is no challenge.

The RW and any Fundamental Christians are dangerous for the same reasons you attack those who have faith without proof to your satisfaction.

Forgive those whose logic is not flawless. Do you believe in anything? Is there proof that prophetic wisdom is not inspired by some link to a pure truth? Is not this clarity a glimpse at a creative force?

God has many names and many faces. How can you prove that there is not a shared answer that all mankind realizes.Oooeeeuuwww,maybe there is a God and maybe He is the Buddha. Maybe Jesus was as close to Divine in his insight, that He was thought to be the Son of God.

Give a little, let religion fade and change with more exposure.It will change and there will be another truly wise guide that will get us from this space to another. There we will both just understand each other and
we will enjoy the challenges of working with nature and not against each other.

Understand now, that I am not fixed on proof, nor am I following blindly.
I have taken the Christian advocate position to see if there is persecution and you have shown that we have to watch ourselves. We are quite pushy and demanding of even the most liberal of Christians.
Peace,Obscure.
I've enjoyed exchanging thoughts.

[theobscure]

98. well, whatever

If you and other non-religous (I guess since you were playing devil's advocate?) don't see a threat from religious "thought" then I guess we'll get what we deserve.

I suppose it's just fodder for partisan gamesmanship, just like everything else in this country. We mustn't be too pushy about insisting reality is real or what the meaning of "is" is. No one is right about anything and no one is wrong about anything. It's all just semantic sport. Pick a side and spout the company line. No such thing as truth means no such thing as accountability. What could be the harm in that, right?

[The Wielding Truth]

101. Surprisingly, Obscure, I agree with you. When religion restricts my

rights I will not lie down. But I will stand for anyone's freedom to have their God or Gods.
Any elected official must be accountable to the Constitution. I support the Bill of rights for all.
We are on the same side. I want accountability. Notice my avatar.

[theobscure]

102. The problem is that while you are keeping vigil over...

your "micro" rights, your "macro" right of being allowed to continue to exist is in serious jeopardy. So, in essence, Bush is correct in saying that the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights for that matter, "is just a goddamn piece of paper."

I think I've been clear in saying that I strongly oppose outlawing religion or burning churches or the like. I am speaking of a "war" of ideas; which is un-winnable if we blunt our "weapons" with political correctness, and fatal if we don't fight it.

It is a fallacy to believe that faithful people, Republican or Democrat, can separate their faith from their policy and decision making mind. Their faith is the very crux of their belief structure from which all thinking emanates. Would you have me believe that a Democrat has never started a war? engaged in illegal war? killed tens of thousands of civilians with the "justification" that they were on the right side? practiced discrimination on illogical grounds? etc.?

To think that Church and State can be separated by keeping nativity scenes off of courthouse lawns or prayer out of schools is dangerously naive.

[neuvocat]

78. Beware of false prophets.

Unless this man is about to literally be fed to the lions, then he needs to shut up over this persecution complex of his.

[BenDavid]

80. You know the only thing

about people like this scarborough guy and others of like ilk when it comes to believing that Christians are somehow persecuted is they never have practiced being a Christian in it's true form as set forth by Jesus of Nazereth....

They remind me of the story I believe it is found in the book of James, where there is a brother and sister in need of food and clothing. The right wing republican comes upon them and sees their plight and he tells me, let us pray. After prayers are spoken, the right wing republican walks away.....The brother and sister are still in need of food and clothing....

A little later on a liberal walks upon them and he sees them and sees the plight they are in. He tells them, come with me, and they go over to the store and he gets them some clothes and then he takes them to a place to eat and they brake bread and fill their stomachs. The liberal then asks them, shall we pray and give thanks for what we all have received and been given. They pray and the liberal wishes them well...

Now what person practiced what it means to be "thy brothers keeper". Yes the liberal and that is the way it is and the way it will always be. Words and deeds mean something....

[mariema]

88. Life in Our Anti-Christian America

A satirical list I found a few years back here
http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html

If there really was a "War on Christians" we would expect to see:

"Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted to Atheism. There are no equivalent sections for religious news."

"Nearly all of our elected public officials are atheists; they even have to swear on a copy of Darwin's "Origin of Species" in order to take office."

"Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes."

[DuaneBidoux]

89. What they really mean is that the US is not becoming what they want.

Language stays course in the workplace. Gay marriage and unions advances (yes it does albeit slowly). There is still porn on the Internet. Abortion isn't becoming illegal as fast as they wanted. Evolution is still taught.

Basically the country is just not turning into the kind of country they want it and(after six years of shrup)expected it to become. In some very real senses they ARE losing the culture war.

[winston61]

94. Delay's just blowing smoke up the ass of the few

remaining followers. What the fundies mean by 'war' is they are not allowed to force their version of the Taliban down out throats. 'You nasty secular humanists won't let us destroy the country, boo hoo!'

[MattNC]

95. my cousin's wife quoted!

"Certainly religious persecution existed in our history, but to claim that these examples amount to religious persecution disrespects the experiences of people who have been jailed and died because of their faith," said K. Hollyn Hollman, general counsel of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty."

woohoo!

[Hekate]

104. Just the latest battle in the culture wars--very successful, too

Yes, these are wingnuts. No, they don't speak for all Christians.

But folks, the demagogues and fanatics who declared "Culture War" on the rest of us are gaining ground. Sure they're loony and deluded -- and those are the ones who aren't lying in their teeth.

But so were the Brown Shirts and other useful tools.

When this stuff crops up just ask Who Does It Serve?

Hekate

[Vinca]

105. There are several segments of the population that drive me nuts,

but the "faux Christians" - and that's what they really are - top the list. Their religion is being attacked by themselves. Would Jesus spend millions on a megachurch while people were in need of shelter? Would Jesus hole up in a world class hotel for a conventions while people were hungry? Jesus didn't wear designer duds, Jesus didn't have a corporate jet, Jesus didn't have a television show, Jesus didn't worship money.

[Zorra]

111. Fundie christianists think that separation of church and state is

a war on Christianity because it does not allow them to force their beliefs on folks that do not believe the same way that they do.

Their narrow world view does not allow them to consider the possibility that others are entitled to their own way of life and own belief system. These stereotypically ignorant and intolerant souls have, historically, killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people simply because they did not share their extremely conservative, limited view of existence.

If "pagans"" were forcing symbols of the vernal equinox to be displayed in public schools and courthouses, or "pagans" were celebrating the winter solstice in public schools or courthouses, these fundie christianists would be screaming bloody murder. They believe that their way is the only way, and therefore they cannot reconcile or tolerate belief systems that differ from their own.

The Judaeo-Christian belief system has been so fully assimilated into the social consciousness of the general population of the US that it is almost impossible for fundie christianists to conceive of the idea of the necessity that religion must be seperate from secular law in order to assure freedom of religion and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If they had their way, they would outlaw all religions except their own perverse and misguided brand of christianity - that particularly frightening brand of christianity that sanctions intolerance, repression, torture, and the killing of human beings in unjustifiable wars in the name of their god.

There are some really great Christian folks in this world, but the crazy fundie christianists have little or nothing in common with these peaceful, loving souls.

[raysr]

112. It's about time

fuckin bunch of hypocrites!