(AP) Justice Scalia Chastises Boston Newspaper

[TaleWgnDg]

Justice Scalia Chastises Boston Newspaper

2 hours, 57 minutes ago, (Wednesday, March 29, 2006)



BOSTON (AP) - Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, in a scathing letter to the editor of the Boston Herald, accused the newspaper's staff of watching "too many episodes of the Sopranos" for interpreting a hand gesture he made at a cathedral as obscene.

The Boston Herald reported Monday the justice made "an obscene gesture, flicking his hand under his chin" in response to a question about whether lawyers might question his impartiality in matters of church and state. The incident occurred after he attended Mass at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross.

But Scalia said in his letter the gesture is not obscene at all, but dismissive. Scalia said he had explained the gesture's meaning to no avail to the reporter, whom he referred to as "an up-and-coming 'gotcha' star."

. . . snip . . .

Scalia said in the letter, written to Executive Editor Kenneth Chandler, that the reporter leapt to conclusions that it was offensive because he initially explained his gesture by saying, 'That's Sicilian.'"

"From watching too many episodes of the Sopranos, your staff seems to have acquired the belief that any Sicilian gesture is obscene — especially when made by an 'Italian jurist.' (I am, by the way, an American jurist.)," he wrote.

. . . more at . . . http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_go_su_co/scalia_gesture_2

Alleged gesture (of Italian origin) at issue in this newest Scalia "bad boy saga" . . .

For resource background on this Scalia's newest "bad boy saga," including Scalia's LTTE of the Boston Herald and other hyperlinks to relevant Boston Herald newspaper articles, go to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2195687&mesg_id=2195721 which is a post (#12) w/i this DU LBN thread.

[kevinbgoode]

1. hahahahahaha

And the Sicilian with the pan pizza face sent that letter to Boston's conservative newspaper.

[Bob3]

2. Sorry that gesture is obscene

You can get yourself in one nasty fist fight you use that in the wrong neighborhood.

And as a side note - is Scalia getting nuttier by the day or is itjust me.

edit - keep losing words - dislexia for cure!

[Olney Blue]

3. Looking and acting more like Mr. Peanut every day....

(my apologies to Mr. Peanut).

[MADem]

6. Mr. Peanut is way too snazzy a dresser, and slimmer, as well! nt

[Princess Turandot]

34. And doesn't dye his hair!..

or wouldn't, if he had any.

[Gormy Cuss]

4. Agreed. He knows it too.

The Cathedral is in the South End. If he used that gesture in the North End or Revere there would be no misunderstanding of what he meant.

Imagine if Ginsberg called someone a putz then tried to say it wasn't a vulgar term.

[onenote]

5. that's not a universally held view

There's plenty of evidence that its not generally considered obscene and, in fact, isn't even considered terribly offensive. Of course, sensitivities vary among people.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=767236&mesg_id=767671


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=767236&mesg_id=767583

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=767236&mesg_id=770300

[Trajan]

44. Having grown up in an Italian family in and near NYC ...

THAT gesture is intended as an insult ... there is no mistaking it ....

Scalia knows that, but as a typical right wing nutzoid, he is gonna try to lie his way out of it now .... fancy that .....

Farmer's from Iowa may not recognize it ... fishermen in Alaska may not see it that way ...

But loosely use that gesture in a bar in Brooklyn, Queens or North Jersey and see if you make it out on your feet ....

[Selteri]

16. That Gesture means F--- U N/T

[onenote]

17. disagree

[Bob3]

32. I disagree - the only time I've seen it used has been by

people who were cursing while they were using it. and what a supreme court justice was doing using it remains a puzzlement. Unless you go with the idea that Scalia is bat shit crazy.

[Selteri]

52. See front page? I said because I had an Italian Aunt...

It's more of a subtle insult but the translation is that for the rough meaning.

[adigal]

49. Yes, I grew up in NYC and it means the same

as the middle finger, or FU. No question about it. And it means that in Italy too.

[ninkasi]

35. It's not just you...

He IS getting crazier. I don't think this country has ever had so many crazies in powerful positions of government before. Rumsfeld? Crazy. Bush? Crazy. It's a disgrace that so many citizens in this country are willing to tolerate officials who should be living in mental institutions, instead of ruining America. Every member of the Bush administration is either crazy or criminal, usually both.

[Skeptor]

40. Rumsfeld's BEYOND crazy, or to praphrase:

There are those who know they're crazy, there are those who are crazy to know, and there are those crazies who know crazy like no-one knows.

[dave29]

60. the crazy of Rumsfeld

if you knew he was crazy then you can't know how uncrazy he is or isn't. That's just a fact on the ground.

[baldguy]

7. His gesture was NOT obscene.

And the 2000 election was NOT stolen. And the detainees at Gitmo are NOT POWs and they're NOT being tortured. And wiretapping American citizens without a warrant is NOT unconstitutional.

[ugarte]

8. Scalia playing the race card...very funny...nt

[goforit]

42. He too has been watching the Sopranos too much as well as Abu Gharib

He's nothing but "slime in the icebox"

[rocktivity]

9. Cut the crap--it's the equivalent of a raised middle finger!

At least it was where I grew up. And where I grew up, you didn't call WHITE guys "punks!"

Scalia's consistently inappropriate behavior and reactions remind me of someone...

:mad:
rocknation

[onenote]

15. no its not

see post 11

[shain from kane]

10. Release the photo. News account that I read said Judge told photographer

to not publish the picture. If it's harmless, why did he make such a point? I'm sure his picture is released all the time without his knowledge or control. Besides, interfering with publication is censorship under prior constraint, which means damages must be argued after publication.
Release the photo and let us be the judge for once.
Then we can lord it over him and treat him as an inferior just as he does with his holier than thou attitude.

[rocktivity]

47. Here's the photo

And if there's any doubt as to what he meant, the photographer says, "The judge paused for a second, then looked directly into my lens and said, ‘To my critics, I say, ‘Vaffanculo,’" punctuating the comment by flicking his right hand out from under his chin...The Italian phrase means “(expletive) you.”

...Herald reporter Laurel J. Sweet agreed with Smith’s account, but said she did not hear Scalia utter the obscenity. link

She didn't HEAR what he said? I thought that's what reporters were PAID to do. That's a far cry from denying he said it, or that he said something else.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Supersedeas]

48. Right, so why demand the photo not be published your Partisan Judgship

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. Here's a guide:

http://members.fortunecity.com/italyfolk/hands.html

I think we're talking about #68

[onenote]

14. exactly. and its not obscene

Sorry to rain on folks' parade, but anyone who regards this as an obscene gesture is overly sensitive or misinformed. I've talked to Italian friends and searched all over and can't find any indication that this is an obscene gesture (while I can find, pre-dating the current hoopla, a number of descriptions of the gesture that are consistent with view that it means, I'm not interested.

I know why folks would want to make this into a bigger deal than it is, but its really a waste of time.

onenote

[bunkerbuster1]

30. It may or may not be obscene, but what's REALLY obscene

...is a Supreme Court Justice writing screechy, wingnuttish LTEs.

That's pretty disgusting.

[Trajan]

45. I do have to laugh here ....

at your absolute insistence that this is NOT an insult ...

At NO time is it ? .... Never ? .... no where no how ? ...

Are you arguing an extreme viewpoint that NEVER is such a gesture an insult ? ....

Funny: cause I know THAT isnt true : I grew up knowing what that meant ....

Are you telling me my family members were lying when they told me they used that gesture as an insult ? ....

They DIDNT use it as an insult ? ...

What precisely are you trying to say here ?

[onenote]

46. when you stop laughing, try reading

I said its not obscene, not that its not insulting or rude.

onenote

[adigal]

50. You are now talking to someone who grew up in NYC

and it means the same thing as the raised middle finger. Try going to Little Italy in NYC, or to a Brooklyn neighborhood, and doing it and see what happens. He is Italian, he knows that it is an obscene disrespectful gesture and he is counting on those not familiar with the gesture to make his case for him.

If you don't believe me, try it out yourself around some Italians who you don't know too well.

[onenote]

59. and you're making assumptions about where I've lived...

Nice. And as my posts on this topic indicate, I've checked with my friends whose family ran an Italian bakery in New Jersey, who still speak Italian at home and when they visit friends in the old neighborhood and they both say its not obscene. ALso, there are numerous discussions of the "chin flick" on various websites pre-dating the Scalia incident and not one that I've seen describe it as an "obscene' gesture; they universally characerize it a somewhat insulting or rude (but not obscene) to basically innocuous, depending on region, etc.

Now if he uttered certain phrases in Italian while he did, that's a different story. But if all he did was the chin-flick, then it might be obscene to some folks, but that's not its generally accepted meaning.

THanks for the lecture anyway.

onenote

[mondo joe]

56. Even if it weren't (and it is), what about "Vaffanculo"?

If I ever said that my Sicilian grandmother would have kicked my ass.

[seriousstan]

20. Sorry, Sicilian hand gestures are now defined by the DU.

I mean, what the hell would a guy named Fabio Oliveri know about Italian hand gestures? Also, how can you trust 2 guys named Mark Di Giuseppe and Emanuela Ambrosino to translate Italian?

Get a clue and "cut the crap".

[shanti]

54. that is a horrible site!

full of popups - got anything better?

[TaleWgnDg]

12. Scalia's letter to the editor of the Boston Globe, Wed., March 29, 2006

Justice fires back (at Boston Herald Reporter in a LTTE)

(LTTE) by Antonin Scalia(, Associate Justice SCOTUS)
(Boston Herald,) Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - Updated: 12:39 AM EST

To the Editor:

It has come to my attention that your newspaper published a story on Monday(, March 27, 2006) stating that I made an obscene gesture - inside Holy Cross Cathedral(, Boston, Massachusetts), no less. The story is false, and I ask that you publish this letter in full to set the record straight.

Your reporter, an up-and-coming “gotcha” star named Laurel J. Sweet, asked me (o-so-sweetly) what I said to those people who objected to my taking part in such public religious ceremonies as the Red Mass I had just attended. I responded, jocularly, with a gesture that consisted of fanning the fingers of my right hand under my chin. Seeing that she did not understand, I said “That’s Sicilian,” and explained its meaning - which was that I could not care less.

That this is in fact the import of the gesture was nicely explained and exemplified in a book that was very popular some years ago, Luigi Barzini’s The Italians:

“The extended fingers of one hand moving slowly back and forth under the raised chin means: ‘I couldn’t care less. It’s no business of mine. Count me out.’ This is the gesture made in 1860 by the grandfather of Signor O.O. of Messina as an answer to Garibaldi. The general, who had conquered Sicily with his volunteers and was moving on to the mainland, had seen him, a robust youth at the time, dozing on a little stone wall, in the shadow of a carob tree, along a country lane. He reined in his horse and asked him: ‘Young man, will you not join us in our fight to free our brothers in Southern Italy from the bloody tyranny of the Bourbon kings? How can you sleep when your country needs you? Awake and to arms!’ The young man silently made the gesture. Garibaldi spurred his horse on.” (Page 63.)

How could your reporter leap to the conclusion (contrary to my explanation) that the gesture was obscene? Alas, the explanation is evident in the following line from her article: “ ‘That’s Sicilian,’ the Italian jurist said, interpreting for the ‘Sopranos’ challenged.” From watching too many episodes of the Sopranos, your staff seems to have acquired the belief that any Sicilian gesture is obscene - especially when made by an “Italian jurist.” (I am, by the way, an American jurist.)

. . . snip . . .


Sincerely,
Antonin Scalia

. . . more at . . . http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132653

(hyperlinks added in Scalia's letter to the editor (LTTE) by TaleWgnDg)

This on-going Scalia saga in Boston about Scalia apparently giving an obscene Italian hand gesture to a news reporter in a Roman Catholic Church environs would be very funny, indeed, if were not so serious. Serious, that is, because of its source.

This is not TV's The Sopranos!

Instead, this is about the mannerisms and demeanor of a sitting U.S. Supreme Court associate justice! Indeed.

As a member of the bar, I am appalled that Justice Scalia cannot seem to control himself in public -- from his arrogant off-the-cuff responses to the general public including the press media to recipients of his post-lecture Q&A sessions whether in the States or abroad in Switzerland at his alma mater (.pdf format), University of Fribourg, to lawyers appearing before the SCOTUS bench. This justice is a detriment to the bar, the bench, and to America, and all Americans. What a horrific role model is he!

Scalia should be removed upon "bad behavior" as our constitution authorizes. [br />

Scalia's newest faux pas, i.e., poor impulse control of a sitting SCOTUS justice . . . this time, in Boston . . .
1.) http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132311
(Laurel J. Sweet's BosHerald article, Monday, March 27, 2006)
2.) http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132482
(Laurel J. Sweet's BosHerald article, Tuesday, March 28, 2006)
3.) Scalia's written letter to the editor (here) in response . . .


Pope Scalia, SCOTUS associate justice, can never be wrong! Never.

[shain from kane]

So he's going back to original intent. That may work for the

Constitution, but around here, its contemporary usage is what counts.
Sort of like arguing about the origins of the words cop or f*ck.

Paraphrasing another American jurist, I may not be able to provide a definition, but I know it when I see it.

[TaleWgnDg]

31. Ah, yes, how true. Scalia views it . . .

something like his originalist, textualist legal interpretive theories of the U.S. constitution. That is, it's rigid. Never wavers. Never changes. And, oh, hell, no, it never evolves.

Damn, what a guy, huh? BTW, who does that remind you of? Birds of a feather, flock together.

How about George Walker Bush? Yup. No wonder Bush and Company loves this guy. One's as rigid and immovable as the other! Neo-cons, i.e., bible fundamentalist who believe precise reading of the bible is the word of God. So goes Scalia's rigid constitutional law theories.

[onehandle]

13. Didn't I see this guy with a shoe in his hand once?

"We will bury you!"

[TaleWgnDg]

18. indeed.

[MrPrax]

19. Funny...

Top jurist uses his 'wisdom and experience' to explain away 'non-verbal' communication that some find offensive.

He could have avoided the whole thing by being a little less 'street' and a little more --um-- judicial in his original response.

I guess the dignity of the office and his profession are a distant second to Mr. Scalia.

[fshrink]

21. OK.Put your left hand on the inside of your right elbow

and flex the right forearm upward, preferably with the fist closed. This is what this asshole on a mediatic delirium needs as an answer, to his comments, his judgements (all of them) and his pathetic life in general.

[truthisfreedom]

22. funny. by censoring the picture he's indicting himself... what a goofball

he could defuse the situation by allowing the picture to be published, and then having a series of Sicilian gesture experts go on television talk shows to poo-poo the notion that it's an obscene gesture and hand-wave it away as overblown Sopranos misinformation.

[leesa]

23. Exactly! THIS says it all...he knew exactly what he meant by the gesture

He meant it as an obscenity, otherwise he would not have forbade them from publishing it.

Beyond all this, what kind of idiotic response is this to a legitimate question anyway? He's an ignorant thug who belongs nowhere near a judicial seat.

[TaleWgnDg]

24. Apparently, the only photograph of this Scalia saga,

is held by the Archdiocese of Boston, i.e., Cardinal O'Malley. Why? Because the only photographer quick enough to capture Scalia in his "bad boy" act was a The Pilot photographer. The Pilot is the official newspaper of the Archdiocese of Boston, again, Cardinal O'Malley.

"The conduct unbecoming a 20-year veteran of the country’s highest court - and just feet from the Mother Church’s altar - was captured by a photographer for the Archdiocese of Boston newspaper The Pilot, whose publisher is newly minted Cardinal Sean O’Malley."
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132311
(quoting the Boston Herald newspaper article at issue, "Judicial intemperance - Scalia flips message to doubting Thomases," Boston Herald newspaper, by Laurel J. Sweet, Monday, March 27, 2006)

Now, do you really think that Cardinal O'Malley (who was unable to attend this "Red Mass" in Boston because he was in Rome undergoing his new elevation from Archbishop to Cardinal status) will release the photo? I doubt it. Because Scalia is viewed as beneficial to The Holy See, not detriment due to Scalia's legal stances. Scalia is as ultra-conservative in his social (read: religious) views as is The Holy See, Pope Benedict XVI.

Scalia is unable to separate his religious views from his legal theories and application of law in many instances, which is at the very heart of this controversy and the Boston Herald reporter's question to, and confrontation of, Scalia as well as Scalia's hand gesture response.

If Scalia remains beneficial to Roman Catholicism, why, then, should Cardinal O'Malley cement Scalia's public "bad behavior" by releasing the photograph?

See: http://www.rcab.org/Pilot/HomePage.html "First published in 1829, The Pilot is America's oldest Catholic newspaper. The Pilot is published every Friday, except the first two weeks of July and the last week of December. . . . Publisher: Archbishop Seán P. O'Malley, OFM Cap." (O'Malley is now a Cardinal)

[Book Lover]

25. Alright then, Nino

How about you make that dismissive gesture to your mother?

[KittyWampus]

26. To the heart of the matter- It Is NOT obscene but

it is totally inappropriate public behavior for a SCOTUS judge.

He wouldn't use that gesture to anyone he respected. And since he has no real respect for anyone including himself....

The only thing these assholes regard highly is money and power.

[Book Lover]

28. I am Italian-American

In some places, like my father's home and the neighborhood I grew up in, it is obscene. In other places, I am sure it is not. How was it where you grew up?

[adigal]

51. To any Italian I knew growing up in NYC it is obscene

and disgusting for a Supreme Court justice to do.

[Book Lover]

57. Certainly to this native NYC'er it is. (nm)

[LiberalFighter]

37. All judges especially on SC r suppose to have higher standards

[mondo joe]

55. Sure it is. I'm Sicilian. I know it. Never used it.

[wicket]

27. For those unaware- the Boston Herald is a right-wing tabloid paper

As a Bostoner, I admit to having a bit of schadenfreude over this :rofl:

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

29. I always thought of that gesture, common in the south of Italy,

to be kind of a 'go to hell' or 'f--- you' gesture. It's not as common in the north of Italy. Since most Italian-Americans are ancestors of Italian immigrants from the south of Italy, it doesn't surprise me that Scalia would use it. If someone were to gesture me like that, I'd take it as an insult. But what do I know? I'm only Italian :shrug:

[TaleWgnDg]

33. Cardinal O'Malley refuses to release photo of Scalia "flipping off"

Fans and foes weigh in on justice gesture

By Laurel J. Sweet(, Boston Herald reporter)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - Updated: Mar 29, 2006 06:04 AM EST

While legal watchdogs wagged a disapproving finger at U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia for his off-color “Sicilian” salute in Boston’s cathedral, the Archdiocese of Boston said yesterday it won’t publish a photo of the gesture in its newspaper The Pilot.

“Because it won’t,” archdiocese spokesman Terrence Donilon responded when asked why.

After receiving communion Sunday at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Scalia, in town for a speech, flicked his hand under his chin when asked by a Herald reporter how he answers detractors who think he should keep his religious beliefs behind closed doors.

“That’s Sicilian,” Scalia, 70, said of the cultural kiss-off. The moment was snapped by a photographer for The Pilot.

“Would he like somebody to do something like that in his courtroom? He’d soon lock them up,” said Nanny Yvonne, who battles brats on FOX’s “Nanny 911.”

. . . more at . . . http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132482

[mitchum]

36. Fat Tony, YOU are obscene

[anitar1]

38. Maybe Scalia's temper will contribute to his implosion one

day. The corpulence may contribute also. What a disgrace our Scotus has become.

[Rex]

39. "an up-and-coming 'gotcha' star."

HAHAHA! This is so pathetic it is funny! So Don Tony inadvertently admitted to being caught! What a fucking motard! Make up your mind you worthless lump of shit!

[shain from kane]

41. Hey, Scalia. GOTCHA! GOTCHA GOOD! n/t

[ashling]

43. Judicial temperament tantrum

your not the boss of me!

[shanti]

53. my italian friend says...

yes, it is technically an obscene gesture but italians also do it in a joking way to others and amongst themselves...it's as universal as giving the finger.

[QuettaKid]

58. which finger?

this one?

[shanti]

61. yep

i think that's the one! :evilgrin: