Rape allegations cast pall at Duke

[entanglement]

(from USA Today)

"The flier being distributed outside Duke's student union Wednesday night looked like a wanted poster: 40 faces of young men, smiling smugly for the camera. What was most disturbing to those gathered was the possibility several of the Duke men's lacrosse players whose photos were arranged in those neat rows may have committed criminal charges, including forcible rape and sodomy."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lacrosse/2006-03-29-duke-fallout_x.htm

[Erika]

1. Racism & women degradation alive and well at Duke

The dna tests have been taken.

[951-Riverside]

6. Would white racists engage in group sex with a black stripper?

...you tell me.

[entanglement]

8. This is rape, if proven

And fucked up arguments like yours are not new, they've been used since the times of slavery to punish victims and protect the guilty.

[951-Riverside]

12. Hasn't been proven

And fucked up arguments like yours are not new,

Wasn't making an argument I asked a question.

they've been used since the times of slavery

Didn't realize strippers existed during the era of slavery

to punish victims

I can ask questions without "punishing" the victim also I tend not to automatically believe everything someone says without asking questions.

and protect the guilty.

I didnt know it went to trial already

[salin]

19. different answers depending on the circumstance

consensual group sex - one answer (per the racism question)

rape - completely different answer - as rape is often about power and dominance, rather than sex or sexual gratification.

[TheWraith]

14. Hey, simmer down.

All Riverside did was ask a damn question. People around here can be so hair trigger if they think you're not in line with their personal ideology...

[fjc]

69. Yeah, alot like conservative blogs...

[Megahurtz]

126. And a Lame Question at That.

Of course white racists would engage in group sex with a black stripper.
Why the fuck not?
Rape is used as a weapon and is also a form of hate.:think:

[TheWraith]

134. Then answer the question instead of having a tantrum.

Screaming at anybody who bothers to engage in a discussion is behavior appropriate to Republicans.

[TheWraith]

13. Of course.

You don't think that their hairbrained ideologies run deep enough to out-vote their pants, do you? Besides, rape has always been a favored tool of one group against another.

[heliarc]

17. huh?... yes they would.

The answer to that question is yes. The prudish insensitivity in this thread is really sort of dissapointing. The "White Racists" you are crediting with so much deductive reasoning are interested in degrading what they hate, and the way that they do it is through rape. Look at Strom Thurmond. He is a bigot too, but that didn't stop him from using his position of power to have a child with a black woman too and then never take responsibility for being the father of that child.

[superconnected]

100. excellent points.

[LisaL]

27. WTF is that supposed to mean?

A racist can not be a rapist?

[salin]

29. implication is that a rape is

about sex and sexual gratification - rather than about power and dominance. Ergo (despite history suggesting otherwise) a racist wouldn't choose to have 'sex' with someone they were bigotted towards. Odd logic - but odd logic often finds its way onto threads where rape is alleged.

[LostinVA]

33. Odd logic usually does find its way onto these threads

That's why sometimes I just hide the damned things... but I lived in NC for 17 years, so I have a bit of personal interest in this case.

[Ignacio Upton]

28. We;;, slave owners and Strom Thurmond did have black mistresses

You can be the most bigoted person in the world and still do that.

[LostinVA]

39. Of course! Do you think slave owners and overseers were racist?

Of course... it was inherent. They barely considered them human... and some didn't. Yet, they raped them. It's control.

Why do ANY racist men rape black women, Hispanic women, Vietnamese women, etc.? And they do -- it's one of their hallmarks... just like why Brandon Teena's murderers raped him... they weren't sexually attracted to Brandon, but it was their way of showing how they controlled him, and what they thought of his gender identity....

[htuttle]

40. "The pecker knows no bigotry"

[zann725]

86. Bulldust! Its 'orders' are stimulated by its mind's view of power & racism

Sex IS always partly about "power"...hence the word "fuc@!" so often expressly states anger-based power. Sex and power (AND racism as a deranged version of power) ARE inseparable and one...in many power-oriented minds...unfortunately.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Yeah, because racism has never been connected with rape?

:shrug:

It is one of the interesting contradictions of racism that it is intimately associated with rape. Not saying that happened here, but the notion that a racist wouldn't rape a woman of the race he despises is simply not borne out by even a cursory historical examination of the subject.

[Rich Hunt]

106. rape in history

Rape historically has been a means of demeaning groups by attacking their daughters.

Some people may object that this sounds 'sexist' but you have to remember that to people who commit this sort of rape, women are just objects. Historically, the intent was to degrade a people by raping 'their' women.

[alcibiades_mystery]

112. Yeah

that's my point.

[geniph]

115. It's not only used to degrade women

It's also used as a tool to shame men. Take a good look at prison power dynamics sometime.

[jukes]

42. 951-Riverside

YES. klan-assed nazi robots HAVE raped black women. only a fool refuses to understand that rape is a weapon of dominance & aggresion, not a quest for sexual gratification.

most states have CIVILIZED laws that recognize that the occupation or previous chastity of the victim do NOT make her less a victim.

Question answered?

[LostinVA]

60. This is par for the course

I was wondering who is was -- I have the poster on "Ignore." You can see why...

Jukes, if I wasn't a lesbian, I might have to marry you.

[jukes]

64. i'm so flattered!

that was a nice thing to say!!!

let's have "crushes" on each other, then, & back each other up in these "mole-wars"!

i love the smell of musty, dank fur in the morning...

[LostinVA]

66. Okay! I have similar crushes and anti-mole agreements with

a few others.... it's like in the movie "Witness," when Lukas Haas rings the bell and all the Amish throw down their hoes and come help Harrison Ford.....

And, seriously, I like a man who knows what a real man is.

Now, MOLE RANGERS! ATTACK!

[jukes]

67. smilie only, n/t

:pals:

[0007]

87. LOL!! Great smilie!

[goclark]

85. Racist White Slave Masters engaging in sex

with Black slaves was alive and well.

Why do you think there are so many African Americans of different hues?

I suppose, unless it was a White person with compassion for the way that slaves were treated in this county, it would not matter at all that the victim happened to be Black.

Could there possibly be White Racists at Duke University?

Of course not, they would never engage in sex at a party where drinks were served and dare to have sex with a person of any color by force! No way!
:sarcasm:

Somebody with the DNA may have raped a female ~ it has happened White on White.

The fact that the stripper was Black probably would mean nothing to a White Person.

But I can tell you that for a Black person, our memory bank is huge with
stories of such acts against our women.

OK ~ Let's try this one on ~ if the Frat Party had occurred at a Predominately BLACK University and the stripper had been WHITE, how would that be thought of in George Bush Amerika!

[LostinVA]

97. Oi -- your last paragraph

We know how that would play out...

[DrunkenMaster]

90. SLAVE OWNERS RAPED SLAVES

So the answer is yes, absolutely.

On edit: you win the stupidest post of the week award. Congrats.

[superconnected]

99. of course they would.

[alarcojon]

111. They would

if it were a power thing.

Just a thought

[ima_sinnic]

124. why NOT? you think they were "making love"?? sheesh. (nt)

[MissMillie]

133. yeah, they might

It was not uncommon for slave owners to rape their female slaves.

[Marie26]

177. God, of course they would.

It's all about the degradation. Rape has been used for centuries as a method of degrading & hurting members of a hated ethnic group. In Bosnia, for one. Your post assumes that they are racists (based on the racial epithets they screamed at her), but refuses to call it rape (which is what they are accused of). What's up with that?

[Kipling]

18. Innocent until proven guilty.

Although some of the background information does suggest that there is a nasty atmosphere about.

[meisje]

38. Not on D.U.

[jukes]

43. this is a public forum

not a court of law. so, it's quite appropriate that we express our beliefs here.

let's hope there IS a trial and these elitist creeps get some hard justice.

[LostinVA]

45. Correct, I'm not on a jury on in the jury pool, and

Saying they're innocent until proven guilty is tantamount saying the woman is lying until being proven she's being truthful. I won't go there. And, I'm not saying they ARE guilty, I'm saying I suspect they are.

[jukes]

47. you & me, Lostin

same page.

[LostinVA]

48. You're a good man, Jukes

[jukes]

55. tx! like your posts, too!

:toast:

[Ohio Joe]

54. I've never really thought of it that way

First let me say, my gut tells me they are guilty.

But.. When you say "Saying they're innocent until proven guilty is tantamount saying the woman is lying until being proven she's being truthful." I'm not sure I can agree with that. The only other option I can think of is we treat people as guilty until proven innocent and i'm not sure I like that idea. Personally, I never considered guilty until proven innocent to be a reflection in any way on the victim/accuser but rather a manner in which we treat the accused.

[LostinVA]

61. But, as I said, I'm not on a jury where you have to do what you said

As a person, I can say... I think they're guilty, let's see how it pans out. But, to ME, if I say -- they are innocent until proven guilty, that means (to ME only) I have to say the woman is lying... and I can't do that, on a personal level. That's why I would have alot of problems sitting on a jury for certain crimes -- specifically sexual crimes. I've had some friends raped, including one date raped who's reputation was dragged through the gutter to make her drop the case. She did. So... I just can't do that.

[Ohio Joe]

89. I understand your view

I have believed for a long time that our legal system does not quite work as it should. Way too often victims are victimized again just to attempt to get justice, especially when it comes to rape (or sexual assault by any name it may be called). I don't have an answer on how things could change so that victims are protected from further harm without violating the rights of the accused, i'm not that smart but I am smart enough to recognize that it really needs to be done.

[Rich Hunt]

162. yours is a good post too

It's honest. I know there are some juries that maybe I couldn't sit on. You have your opinions as a person, which you have a right to, and your duties as a citizen. Some people confuse the two - you clearly don't. Thanks for elucidating the difference.

[Rich Hunt]

109. thank you

As someone who was raped, I will tell you that you are correct. Any number of things can go wrong in a rape case besides 'lying' - mistaken identity, someone could get framed. It doesn't necessarily mean a rape didn't occur.

[TheWraith]

152. Not really, no.

Saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty means just that. There have been legions of cases where victims and/or their families become locked on a single person as the "perpetrator" only to later discover that that person was innocent. That doesn't mean that the people involved were lying, but they WERE wrong. In almost any violent crime case, people who are personally involved are basically unreliable, because of their mental and emotional state. Contrary to popular opinion, there's actually vast room for misidentification, errors, doubt, and what have you to cloud the issue.

There was one semi-famous case where a man was sent to prison for fourteen years on a rape charge after the woman positively IDed him twice. She was absolutely certain that he had been her attacker. Then, after fourteen years, DNA testing proved it wasn't him, and he was released. That's why we have trials, and why no claim is assumed to be true, and no defendant is assumed to be guilty. If we took the suggestions of so many people in this thread, and simply executed this guy, then we'd have killed an innocent man. And there are hundreds of other stories like this one.

It's a pity that so few people have studied the history of criminology. If they had, they'd realize that the whole reason that we have the system where we do is to prevent exactly the rush-to-judgement lynch mob sort of attitude displayed in highly publicized cases like this.

Now it's perfectly fine to speculate, to discuss, even to suspect, but many of the opinions voiced in this thread are way the hell out of line. The assumption of guilt, and suggestions for instituting capital punishment, based on a single report is flatly wrong. It's also wrong to attack as misogynistic those who simply point out that there haven't even been charges filed against anyone. It's easy enough to recognize as inappropriate when it's Republicans calling anyone who disagrees with them "unAmerican" or "soft on terror," but it's somehow considered acceptable to do the same thing by labeling others "misogynistic" or "soft on rapists." Many of the contributors in this thread should be ashamed of themselves.

[LostinVA]

163. I am anti-death penalty, and have advocated nothing like that

Anytime I call anyone misogynistic, it's because they are.

I understand why we have trials. As other people on threads have said, this is a public discussion board.

There's no way in hell I'll be on this jury, and even if I was in the prospective pool, they would never seat me. I've had friends raped. I know this.

[TheWraith]

167. I was referring to some of the other posts.

"Anytime I call anyone misogynistic, it's because they are."

That's highly dubious.

"There's no way in hell I'll be on this jury, and even if I was in the prospective pool, they would never seat me. I've had friends raped. I know this."

So you're no longer capable of determining fact from fiction? That's the point of a trial--that if somebody is guilty, they're punished, and if they're not, then they're released. I can understand your sentiment, but you have to acknowledge that there's a problem there for you. If the person on trial is innocent, you shouldn't hold any more malice towards them than you do to a random person on the street. In analyzing criminal proceedings, it's essential to have a solid line between emotional response and logical analysis. That sort of instinct-based lust for vengence is exactly the reason that we have capital punishment in this country--because of the desire of people who have lost perspective to inflict whatever pain they can upon the accused, in the fallacious belief that somehow it will fix what happened. But it doesn't, so they need another target, and another. Once you surrender to vengence, it has a tendancy to consume you. In this case, you could lock up this entire sports team from now until doomsday, but that won't reverse whatever happened. The best way is to investigate, determine culpability, and prosecute according to the law. Society has the right to protect itself, but not to be vengeful.

[LostinVA]

175. No, it isn't highly dubious -- it's true

I know it when I see it. Just like racism or homophobia.

[fjc]

71. No pun intended?

[jukes]

76. freudian slip

but i don't think their lacrosse/combat skills will defend them from the brothers in the joint.

:rofl:

[fjc]

72. No pun intended?

[onenote]

73. so you "believe" they're guilty of rape

Based on what I might ask (other than the accusation).

onenote

[LostinVA]

77. So, you believe the woman is lying? Based on what I might ask

(other than the players not confessing).

[onenote]

92. I didn't say I believed either side at this point

I have no basis for forming a belief about either side. I'm just wondering how it is that you do.

Let me ask a follow up: did you believe Paula Jones and Katherine Willey or Juanita Broadrick?

(For what its worth, I hoped like hell those allegations were untrue when I heard them and I doubted them based on the political nature of the situation. In the Duke case, I have no particular reason to believe or disbelieve either side at this point).

onenote

[LostinVA]

95. No, I did not believe them, because the case was nothing like that

It is generally pretty easy to determine if specific cases have the core of truth in them. I feel this one does. As I stated, I won't be in a prospective jury pool, so I'm free to develop and express an opinion.

[Marie26]

178. Actually, yes, I did.

We can certainly "believe" anything we like. Once the charges come down, we'll know what the law believes. And once the convictions come down, we'll "know" what the law has decided.

[jukes]

83. i believe

in the insolence and perverse brutality of privileged-male-bonding-societies.

i also believe this needs to see the light of day. i believe these guys ABSOLUTELY need their day in court.


my 20 years of law enforcement experience suggests a high probability that they'll be convicted, in a FAIR trial; unless their richboy-network lawyers persecute the victim in order to protect the privilege of this elite group of the cream of our society (THAT pun was intended).

thus, my OPINION is that they are likely guilty. it will be interesting to see if they get away w/ it.

sorry if my presumption offends you, but if it's any consolation, retired cops seldom get picked for juries.

[onenote]

93. you're entitled to your opinion

I just like to wait until I have enough information to have an informed opinion.

onenote

[jukes]

101. like i said

20 years of law enforcement provides a pretty good filter for sifting anecdotal evidence.

you're entitled to your lack of opinion, but the lack of taking stands is exactly what has this country so fucked up.

[NaturalHigh]

96. As I posted in another thread...

These guys are claiming that they didn't have sex with this woman and that they are anxious for the DNA results to come back

From the Washington Post...

The team captains issued a statement Tuesday expressing regret for the decision to hire the strippers and serve alcohol at the party. But they denied the criminal allegations and said that "the team has cooperated with the police in their investigation. We have provided authorities with DNA samples. The understanding is that the results of the DNA testing will be available sometime next week. The DNA results will demonstrate that these allegations are completely false."

In my opinion, if these guys really aren't afraid of the DNA testing, there is more to this story than we're getting.

[AngryAmish]

117. Who says there were only lacross players at the party?

Alumi, friends, etc could all have been there.

[Rich Hunt]

107. a sensible post

...is a rarity these days. Thank you.

[autorank]

2. Some advice to the President ot Duke...

Good work suspending the team from playing. I'd tell them that if they practice again, they will all be expelled from Duke. This is an act of defiance and shows no respect for the severity of the charges or their impact on Duke.

Duke doesn't need LaCrosse or any sport for that matter. It's an exceptional university that goes out of its way to enrich the lives of its students and challenge them with original courses, internships, and other innovative activities.

Upon reflection, you may decide to simply drop LaCrosse as a sport summarily without waiting for an investigation. Any group of Duke athletes stupid enough to hire a private party dancer is not fit to represent the university. I'd get rid of the team and the sport right now, if I were you. That would make a serious point; make this mistake, treat people in a degrading fashion (simply hiring and having the dancer was enough to show that), assault people and we'll throw you out of the university and abolish your sport for good or for a good long time.

Good luck, these clowns (the ones who think a lap dancing party is OK) don't deserve a place at Duke.

[murielm99]

4. You should send that to the president of Duke.

It was perfectly written.

Are you a Duke alum?

If it was my alma mater, I would be upset enough to contact the school and other alumni. I would work on having them withhold financial support unless the savagery was dealt with properly.

[heliarc]

7. Not sure I like your tone about private dancers.

I might share your anger on this issue, but I think your unwillingness to accept the work of the private dancer who was the victim of this crime is a mite insensitive. Sex Workers deserve just as much respect as workers of any other profession, and it is rash of you to fault these students for hiring a private dancer for their party. Their fault and crime is disregarding the right the dancer has to set her own boundaries of work and definition of her services. It would seem from the allegations and the circumstances of the story that at least a few of them are guilty, but don't blame the woman too for her choice of work. She may hate what she does or be very proud of it. Dancing is a service provided and can be provided with pride or not just like washing dishes, teaching, delivering mail, etc.

I'm also not so sure that I agree with you that sport has no place in University life or that Duke does not require sports. Healthy bodies help the maintenance of healthy minds and the comraderie of University team sports isn't necessarily a bad thing. What is really wrong is the apparent mob mentality that can arise from the sociology of certain very testosterone heavy sports like Football and Lacrosse, combined with the pressure of peer living arrangements like Phrats that amplify the -- dare I say -- fascist cohesion of illogical and discriminatory/warlike acts like this one. The sport itself is not the problem.

[theobscure]

11. well said

In many ways, the people who claim to be among the most progressive have views of sex and sexuality that are nearly as repressive as the most extreme fundamentalist.

[LostinVA]

20. She also is a college student,a nd probably paying her way

through school. Which technically doesn't make a difference, but you know what I eman.... she can't be painted as some lower class tramp by the dfeense... or, it'll be much, much harder.

Sex workers can still be raped, and it is still a crime. Prostitutes can be raped. And, if some people on this thread don't think that's true, then they are sick.

Also, just an FYI" neighbors reported a woman's screams and shouted racial epithets from the residence in question.

[salin]

23. per the FYI... shhhhh

that would blow some folks hard core defense that because there is one case of false allegations - that most rape cases ought to be treated that way, because ... according to that logic, the damage of a false allegation is much worse for a man, than the reality of a rape for a woman... (commentary inserted, not so much per this case - but per a recurrent response on these threads on nearly any news item about rape)

That said, I do believe that an investigation needs to be held - and a trial before declarations of guilt are deemed. If the kids need to lawyer-up before they will participate - than they need to do so quickly - so that the investigation can go forward and the case be resolved if they are innocent, getting to the point of dismissing a case works to their advantage by getting it over with quickly.

[LostinVA]

25. I hear what you're saying... all of it!

[LisaL]

31. She also lost her four fingernails during the

alleged rape. I guess some will dismiss that as "rough sex" too.

[autorank]

82. The intenet of the invitation is pretty clear...considering the soruce...

I'm sure all sorts of things will come out. If this woman was assaulted, I hope that they treat these guys the way anyone else would be treated for sexual assault in NC, which I imagine is with a fair degree of severity. The old "false allegations" trick, if it's used, is less and less credible in courts today or even with the public. Prosecutors have it down cold after hearing it for years. Any judge or jury with a brain knows that simply holding an event like this, initiating it, means trouble given a bunch of kids at that age and activity level. They all need to be tossed out of the university now for simply having the party, attending it. Then they can deal with the law.

[marions ghost]

168. yeah I think

"false allegations" doesn't get by as easily as it used to.

Likewise one could argue that the victim was lured to the party for the purpose of rape.

[hexola]

155. real fingernails? (nt)

[supernova]

34. Best post

I've read so far. Thanks for your sensitivity, heliarc. :thumbsup:

[autorank]

75. All people, sex workers included, must be treated with dignity.

If it appeared I neglected that point, that's my error. My real concern here is why the heck these kids hired a private dancer. There are a bunch of them, not a good mix, and they're all thinking of th private dancer as just one thing, a sex object. My objection is not with her work but the kids objectification of her and the process when they're supposed to represent the university. Anyone who went to this, regardless of how the charges are resolved, should be expelled. Same goes for any other group representing the school. Screw the sport, I'd say the same for basketball, football, etc. if the ENTIRE team did something like this, i.e. hire a sex worker. Sports are ancillary to college. I can't tell you how pathetic I think universities and colleges are that accept this type of behavior from athletes. No wonder there are so many in this country with distorted values. They're modeled by those schools of higher education that act like a bunch of jocks are the raison d'etre for the f'ing school.

[entanglement]

10. Plus there was underage drinking, shouting of racial epithets

and some of these guys have a history of bad behavior

[autorank]

80. No-brainer then! Amazing...

[Jack from Charlotte]

119. Not..... underaged drinking.... at college? The horror of it all... *

*

[stickdog]

16. When I was at Duke, frat charters were revoked for MUCH less. (nt)

[autorank]

81. Great school, they're taking too long on this. Shame...new Prez needed;)

[Marie26]

181. At my college, there was

a similar incident when members of a jock faternity gang-raped an unconscious woman at a party. The faternity never had its charter revoked & continued having frat parties. Sometimes it seems like there is a different set of rules for athletes.

[marions ghost]

44. agree...

Duke University should take the hardest possible line or they will lose all credibility. My niece got into Duke last year but went to a cheaper institution instead. Right now I'm glad she's not there, although I do think that this could happen at any American university (which is not rational, but that's how people react emotionally). I know people who teach and work at Duke. So I want to see the university do the right thing on this, both for the school and the community. Get rid of Lacrosse at Duke, at least for a long while. As for any other teams, discourage the practice of sponsoring exotic dancers at parties. Obviously these charged-up guys cannot be trusted and become the worst kind of predators when they drink. Pity their girlfriends and future wives.

The bigger, scarier picture for us all is that these assholes are going on into business, legal, and government jobs. And people wonder why the country is in the mess that it is. As disgusting as this crime is, it is an indicator of a crisis of morals in the "white collar" sector, and maybe we need to SEE this. It's all connected. Winning is everything. White Guys w Testosterone Rule.

You have to be smarter than average to get into Duke. Looks like being smart is no protection from being twisted and delusional. These turkeys really think that if they don't testify the DA has no case?!? The group's stonewall response tells me there is substance to the allegations. Once again, we are confronted with the narcissist Rethuglican vision for Murika: we can FU and anyone else over and get away with it...and how dare you try to hold us accountable? Miss Piggy Fundamental Law of Privilege--it's ALL about Moi!

God help America with guys like THIS coming out of "elite" schools.

[LostinVA]

46. Good post... and, what do you think will happen when the DNA

comes back positive for some of them? Wanna bet they start spinning how she wanted it? Wanna beat how some of them may have already come up with the "perfect" story of how that skanky black ho begged them to screw her? *sigh* Thank gods the DA has been a brick and totally on top of this -- good PR.

I know there real men on that team... I hope some of them remember their moms, their sisters, their girlfriends... and talk. Closing ranks in something like this isn't being loyal, it's being criminal. They need to learn that (hmmm... Enron, etc.).

[NashVegas]

68. Right Now, Private Investigators Are Probably

Going over that woman's life with a fine tooth comb, and will soon inform the media of all her sexual crimes, real and perceived.

[marions ghost]

70. The DA is critical

--they are not always so willing to seek justice in cases such as this, when it involves the so-called upper crust. I'm glad to hear this DA is tough and that there is enough incriminating evidence to warrant the DNA test.

you say..."hope some of them remember their moms, sisters, girlfriends...and talk" ....

Well, I'm not sure these neaderthal types think like that. They don't really connect THEIR women with this poor individual...to them she is less than human. She is only a tool for them --a convenient target to prove their twisted notions of "masculinity" and their domination of minorities, or groups they perceive as vulnerable.

In reality NONE of them have the guts to stand up for what is right, and so they must have their
body fluids analyzed. Is that strength? Obviously this whole group has no idea of right and wrong, or what violates the boundaries of others. And that reflects on our whole society.

[LostinVA]

78. No, I agree, it's not strength... and it's a bad group think

to close ranks to protect people who have harmed someone else.

I just keep hoping there IS at least a few good guys out of that 47...

[NaturalHigh]

102. In my opinion, the DA screwed up.

By making them all submit DNA for testing and threatening to charge them for their possible participation, isn't he saying that they are all suspects in a criminal investigation? If so, then all of them have the legal right to get a lawyer and not make any kind of statement for fear of self-incrimination. That doesn't seem like a very smart way to encourage cooperation.

[LostinVA]

103. What else was he supposed to do? NOT get DNA samples from all

of them? And, they are all suspects -- he did the correct thing. What's he supposed to do, wait a few months to see if anyone wants to cooperate? Let the victim cool her heels? Seriously, that's silly. He's investigating a crime. That's what you do.

And, everyone has a right to get a lawyer and not make any statements to the police.

[NaturalHigh]

108. Actually, I think that you can be charged...

with obstructing justice if you are not a suspect and refuse to tell police what you know about a crime. I could be wrong, but that is what I've always heard. If you are suspect, however, you have the right to invoke your 5th Amendment rights to not make a statement.

I'm not a lawyer or any kind of expert on the subject, so please correct me if you know anything different. For all I know, it could be different on a state-by-state basis.

[LostinVA]

110. You didn't answer my question: was he not supposed to investigate the case

and just wait and see?

[NaturalHigh]

146. Of course he was supposed to investigate.

I'm just not so sure about his legal strategy.

[TheWraith]

151. No, you can't.

To be charged with obstruction of justice, you have to actually tamper with evidence or the like. You can even lie directly to a police officer without risk of obstruction charges. At least, that's the case here in New York state.

[NaturalHigh]

157. Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't know that. I thought you could be charged for just refusing to cooperate with the police.

[TheWraith]

166. It used to be like that, but not anymore.

At least, that's what I was told by a deputy Sheriff I talked to.

[jukes]

104. common practice

if 1 of them witnessed but did not participate, he's an accessory & may well cooperate w/ the investigation rather han face charges.

some, if guilty of participation, may break ranks & cooperate in a plea bargain for lesser penalty.

[Megahurtz]

129. Uuuuuuhhhhhh........

If the woman was raped and she reported it, and the hospital did a rape-test-kit,
then yes, the DA will take DNA from the accused. This is standard protocol.

Obviously then they are all suspects in a criminal investigation.

Statements don't mean *dick-all when you have DNA that proves otherwise,
in fact, a DA is more likely to get a conviction if the suspects denied it,
and then the DNA proves otherwise.

*Oh by the way, pun intended.:silly:

:popcorn:

[NaturalHigh]

148. They weren't all accused.

I know some people want the whole team to be summarily executed, but only three of them are actually accused of rape.

[NashVegas]

135. No, It Was Pretty Smart

The players are closing ranks. What options did the DA have? He's showing them he's not messing around.

[Marie26]

186. Oh, yeah it is.

The team is protecting each other & not cooperating w/the police. So the DA has no way of knowing right now who the actual suspects are. By testing the whole team, as soon as they receive the DNA evidence back, they'll know who to charge. It also helps "persuade" the team-mates who are protecting the suspects to brake ranks & cooperate w/the authorities.

[autorank]

79. Completely agree...I do pity their current and future female companions &

this is just training for the "real world" where people think that they can push around others of "lower status" just because they're ______________(fill in the blank). I keep thinking of Father Hesburgh, former President of Notre Dame. A true progressive politically, he ran the university by high standards and tolerated no deviation. During the Viet Name War, Hesberg spoke out strongly against the war on frequent occasions. There was a large demonstration starting at Notre Dame and Hesburgh was uncomfortable about something happening that would reflect poorly on the university. He went to the demonstration, assumed the podium and spoke to the crowd. He said that he agreed fully with their goals, their right to protest and told them that they lacked a permit and they need to begin disbursing seriously within the next 30 seconds. They did. Not sure I agree with the Father's position on the right of assembly but there was a leader who could act with clear intent. There were no "cheating" or other athletic scandals at ND during his time there. I'm sure the coaches and athletes were fraid to find out what Father would happen if they actually did something he didn't like! Dump LaCrosse.

[ms liberty]

3. I guess I missed the trial?

Right now we have allegations - and a sudden huge media blitz, about a story that's been reported here in NC for a least a week (that I can remember). No one has confessed, or been found guilty. No one has been proven to have lied,either. In other words, we don't know yet whether the allegations are true or false. Maybe someone in that house did rape her. Maybe she got there for her gig, and saw dollar signs when she realized who her clients were. I do not know. I also do not judge them for hiring an exotic dancer to perform, nor do I judge her badly for being an exotic dancer. Now if any or all of them are guilty, and are found guilty in a court of law, ok, I'm fine with that. I just am not going to make a judgment on it from the sparse amount of factual information released so far.

But I do know this...they keep repeating that there were 40 or 48 people in that house, but you cannot get 40 guys in that house. I know this because my husband has been in that house, when it was the house of his grandparents neighbour(a little old lady, he says, whose son was a cop). He says that house is too small for 40 guys inside, and I believe him. I've seen it on the outside, and it is very small. It would be like trying to stuff a phone booth with football players or something.

Right now this is just the latest variation on the "missing white girl" theme of news-reporting. Sensationalism, with lots of breathlessness and fake outrage from Raspy Rita.

[NashVegas]

59. Do Some Searching About

The 46 players whose DNA was tested didn't come forward of their own choice. If they refused they would have been compelled by warrants that were already waiting for them.

The team captains who rented the house already have contradicted your claim that 40 could not fit in the house.

I lived in upstate NY when Tawana Brawley made her claims. In this case, however, there appears to be medical evidence and plenty of it. 911 was called straightaway.

Timeline from NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/30/sports/30timeline.html

MSNBC interview with the case prosecutor:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12065803/

[951-Riverside]

5. Seems like *someone* can't wait to hang these guys

The investigation must take its course, there is atleast one case that I know of where a woman who was involved in group sex with multiple men later claim that she was raped, the tape proved different and the case was dropped.

[jukes]

50. very interesting! i heard that story too!

and maybe these guys are all boyscouts and god-fearing men of faith that intended to remain pure till their wedding-nights.

and maybe if she hadn't provoked anyone by taking her clothes off there wdnt be any temptation for what was prbly just a "frat prank" anyway.

and maybe there are no looney RW trolls wasting our time here @ DU w/ fairy-tales.

[Megahurtz]

130. Lol!

:D

[quaoar]

53. They should be hanged

Not literally, of course.

Whether it was gang rape or consensual. There were clearly numerous racial slurs being hurled in the direction of a passerby who happened to call 911. And they were all underage and drinking.

Expel them all.

[tatertop]

74. Agreed! Let's expel them all for starters and go from there.

If need be, I am certain we can find
some empty cells for a gaggle of husky red blooded American boys.

[Marie26]

182. link? n/t

[ECH1969]

9. Guilty until proven innocent

You need a investigation and trial before the hanging. But, when it comes to sex crimes men are all too often deemed guilty until proven innocent and even if they are found to be innocent they are often forever tainted in the eyes of many just by the allegations.

[TheWraith]

15. Yep, yep, yep. NT.

[jukes]

52. aint it a shame, ECH1969

the way white men of privilege AND christians are so persecuted in this country?

what w/ the War on Christmas, i hear Baby-Jesus crying!

[LostinVA]

62. Why, you male-bashing wom-- ooh....

[High Plains]

125. Your "I know they're guilty" cop mentality has the best of you.

Hell, why even bother with a trial?

[TheWraith]

136. Congratulations, you just forfeited the argument.

When you have to resort to changing what somebody else said, it's a confession that you don't have a leg to stand on. ECH is right: we have trials for a reason. Nobody has yet proven anything in this case, and it's irresponsible to act otherwise.

As I type this, Rita Skeeter on MSNBC is going off on one of her tabloid crusades on this very subject. That alone should warn you off of that sort of behavior.

[Marie26]

180. As is true of every other crime

If someone is arrested for a crime, there's a taint even if they're later found innocent. That's why the police & DA are being so careful here to be sure of the actual suspects before issuing any indictments. I think the Durham DA is doing a great job of investigating this case.

[LostinVA]

21. My parents live in NC, and my mom said this is being reported

very, very much FOR the victim's side. The players have "closed ranks" and refuse to cooperate with police and the DA's office... and are STILL practicing. My Mom said that public opinion is very much that the young men are a bunch of punks and should be kicked out of Duke for their attitudes. Apparently, their behavior can be considered breaking Duke's Honor Code.

Also: Durham is not a well to do city, and they have historically benn alot of ill feelings between townies and the students -- especially since also traditional, Duke has been seen as an elitist institution.

Also: NCCU, where teh victim goes to school, is a predominatly African-American university.

Just an FYI.

[entanglement]

22. Thanks LostinVA

I'm following this story very closely

[LostinVA]

24. My Mom also said she got the impression that

the victim has been very pleased with the way the DA is treating her and her accusations... and that the Durham DA is PISSED at what he sees as obstruction of justice.

Should be interesting...

[salin]

26. If that is what is going on...

per a big-group act of obstruction, and if a rape took place, I would bet that there are some on the team who were not involved who are miserable right now - torn loyalties, torn between right and wrong, seriously messed up... if I were a bettor - I would bet that one or more of those caught "in-between" (as in were not involved, but know about it) are going to serve as the 'breaks' that move the investigation forward.

[LostinVA]

32. Yeah, I was thinking everything you wrote

If they're being pressured... and, there's one black man on the team. He's the only one who wasn't swabbed (because the victim says her assailants were white)... you wonder about him, too.

[supernova]

35. I agree w/ you LostinVA and Salin

Somebody is going to crack.

I can't imagine anybody thinking that we're not talking about it around here. You can't get away from it.

And who is the LaCrosse coach? Seems to me, that person could be a real leader her and urge his players to fess up.

[LostinVA]

36. My parents live near Blowing Rock and get the Charlotte stations

And Mom says it's ALL over the news in NC... so it's getting alot of play. Hey, it's Duke! It would still get play if it was, say, Guilford College... but DUKE???

[salin]

37. I would guess that it is human nature

to try to believe that it is all a mistake or trumped up, in order to preserve one's impressions of the kids he coached. Even then, however, one would guess that he would urge cooperation in order to clear their names. If he isn't in denial and has an inkling this is what happened - you would think he would be horrified and be urging members to speak up. Of course self-interest is primo, and if it is a paid job (don't know the status of LaCrosse at Duke), would also guess that the coach might fear that such a scandal under his watch would kill his future job prospects.

These are the kinds of issues that can really take a toll on a college town (having lived in several college towns in the midwest and west coast.)

[LostinVA]

49. It's a paid job -- it's an NCAA team

[Marie26]

179. This is true

There's not much sympathetic coverage here for these guys. The news coverage I saw really highlighted that they aren't cooperating with the police.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

30. I'm surprised there was no discussion on this

Here are my thoughts, being very familiar with Duke, its student athletes, the campus (both West and East) and Durham. First of all, the university should not expel anyone unless evidence comes in that the players in question have committed the crime. As reprehensible as rape is, we still do have a constitution that provides for 'innocence until guilt is proven.' I think Dr. Brodhead, Duke's president, is handling this as well as he can. We shall see what the evidence will be; the players have every right not to talk to anyone, if they so choose. If I were in their place, I probably would talk to the police and the DA.

Do I think the men's lacrosse team on Duke is full of elitist mostly white players with attitudes? Yes, I do. It's been like that for years, but then lacrosse isn't exactly played in the hood. Duke is a fairly small school of about 10,000 students, most of whom are graduate students. As undergrads, you know who the student athletes are and you may even end up with them in your classes, dorms and parties. You get a feeling for what kind of people they are and most, during my time there, were very nice people, whether they were in the swim team or in the super-duper men's and women's basketball teams.

I am really dismayed by the racial comments but unfortunately these are not limited to Duke lacrosse players. Duke is actually fairly diverse, especially considering it's very expensive to attend (the great majority are on financial aid) and it's one of the nation's top 5 universities. Durham is not a slum; there are areas where homes are $1 million and up, and then there are crappy areas. Durham is a very diverse city; its downtown is changing for the better. Old tobacco warehouses are being turned into retail and residential space (ironically, by a venture set up by former Duke men's basketball players and other alumni).

I sincerely hope the truth will be known and, if rape can be proven, I hope the guilty parties can be expelled and prosecuted. I am confident Duke will not protect anyone who has committed a crime. Of course, I feel sorry for the girls who were hired to dance. Hopefully, truth will prevail.

[northzax]

51. they're lacrosse players

I have never seen a group of lacrosse players (and I was one) who aren't elitist assholes. it's a groupthink thing. individually is a different story. And stuff like this is disturbingly common on lax teams.

If a rape occured, then every student at the party who hasn't come forward should be expelled and offered the chance to reapply for fall 2007. The students involved, including in any obstruction of justice, should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and banned from campus for life.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

56. My point exactly....

some sports are just not played by children in the middle or lower classes. Lacross is one of those sports. Of course, that will attract elitist assholes who feel they are entitled to treat women like crap (and women of other races as less than crap). However, being an elitist asshole is, unfortunately, not yet a crime (or nearly all Republicans would be in jail by now). Something happened in that house; hopefully, the truth will come out and the responsible parties will be dealt with.

[Jack from Charlotte]

120. Oh my God! Lacrosse players?....... Expel all lacrosse players....

because, afterall..... you have..."never seen any who aren't elitist assholes."

Brilliant.

Such hysteria.

[quaoar]

57. They should be expelled

Duke doesn't owe them due process. It's a private school. And they broke the rules.

Even if the rape allegations are untrue, underage drinking and the use of racial slurs against the stripers and at least one passrby who called 911 are sufficient grounds. At the very least, this is indicative of a lack of institutional control over the lacrosse program. Where were the lacrosse coaches in all of this? If Duke had not shut the program down, the NCAA surely would do so eventually.

[northzax]

58. underage drinking is cause for expulsion?

damn, there gonna be a lot fewer people in school, I guess.

Suspension, definately, some time in a program, certainly, but expulsion? come on.

the racial slurs, on the other hand, are a one way ticket back to suburban New Jersey.

[quaoar]

63. Just because a rule isn't enforced uniformly

doesn't make it less valid or enforcable. However, if underage drinking were the only thing they were doing, then, yes, expulsion would be too harsh. But that combined with the slurs is sufficient to me. And I would doubt, though I don't know, that the hiring of strippers is allowed either.

Around here, high school athletes caught drinking even at private off-campus parties are immediately kicked off the team.

[northzax]

65. high school and college are different stories, though, right?

the rules are different, and they should be.

[jukes]

84. kick

so the apologists can have another shot...

[SoCalDem]

88. Rape is NOT uncommon at ANY college

and never has been.. I don;t know why people are acting all surprised just because it's DUKE..:shrug:

[LostinVA]

91. I think it's more of the gang rape/racial/class angle

And, because Durham citizens are protesting... and maybe even because the DA has been great, and is going after this, and is treating the single mom college student moonlighting as a stripper (whew!) with the respect she deserves.

[SoCalDem]

94. I find it extra sad that a bunch of young men in their PRIME

feel the need to hire a girl to take their clothes off and dance for them ...

[LostinVA]

98. I know...

[hedgehog]

105. The news story I heard contained two contradictory statements:

The first was a denial that any sexual activity had taken place, the second was that DNA samples were submitted. If the first statement was actually issued, what was the point of submitting DNA samples?

I've been hearing stories about athletes in high school, college and professional sports mistreating women for over thirty years. It seems to be part of the ethos and it seems to cross over all sports. Why is anyone surprised at this story? Every few years we hear about an athlete or group of athletes getting caught. How many get away?

[Megahurtz]

132. The point being that maybe

the DA asked them for samples, them knowing that if they refused
the DA could still get it by Court Order.

[patcox2]

113. This is a lynching. Vigilante justice driven by PC ideology.

Three people had sex with a stripper and there is a dispute over whether it was consensual, so this vigilante group prints the faces of 40 people on a flyer, as if they were wanted criminals, slandering them with guilt by association?

Because there is a "culture of rape?" And they aree holding protests because the school isn't doing enought to punish kids who did not commit an alleged crime that hasn't been proven? And the police now have to protect these kids?

Its a lynching, pure and simple.

Take back the night my ass. Private party stripper? Great cause, assholes.

[hedgehog]

114. I suspect that once again, it's not the crime, it's the cover-up.

What happened when that woman walked out of the bathroom? Does anyone think those guys kept silent? What happened when the police started asking questions?

[FredScuttle]

116. So strippers deserve to get raped and sodomized?

hoo boy, you're going to win a lot of friends around here...

BTW, it's not just us that think this woman was raped...the DA is pretty convinced she was the victim of a brutal assault by three animals. Her injuries would suggest it was a tad more than "consensual"

I think the outrage is over how the team circled the wagons and attempted to protect the alleged assailants.

Before you start calling others assholes, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself how you can justify rape and sodomy because it happened to a stripper.

[Jack from Charlotte]

121. How childish....No one, of course, deserves to get raped..... but everyone

should withhold judgment until the investigation is complete. You don't know if a rape took place unless you were there. Were you there? It seems pretty simple to find out who even touched the alleged victim. You just bring everyone in to the cops and take a sworn statement. Few if any are going to lie under oath if they weren't involved.

Before anyone bitches they should await test and investigation results.

Then you'll bitch.... regardless....... I'm sure.

[FredScuttle]

122. One little problem though...

All but three players are refusing to cooperate with investigators. That is their right, of course, and I'm not begrudging them for exercising it. However, this wall of silence does not mean that things are hunky-dory...the community is pissed, not just at the rape accusation, but the players' conduct (the underage drinking, the racial slurs hurled at the 911 callers).

What this will come down to is those players who didn't commit the assault, but are threatened with obstruction of justice for protecting those who did rape this woman.

[Jack from Charlotte]

127. It's their RIGHT not to cooperate with police. Also, those who did....

nothing to the alleged victim.... it's their right, too to not cooperate,if that's what their lawyers tell them to do.

See Bill of rights..... 5th amendment

Don't know why the hysterical among us can't just wait for the investigation to end.

In America people have rights. Even allegedly.... BAD people. And people are convicted of crimes all the time even though they did not help out the police.


Then you can bitch,,.... And I'm sure you and others will, regardless of the results.

[FredScuttle]

128. "Those who did nothing to the alleged victim"

They're doing something right now to the alleged victim if they're protecting the guilty parties.

Yes, we all have rights and no one is compelled to help the police in an investigation...unless they're a material witness and they're actively protecting the guilty.

Believe me, I hate fucking Duke with the heat of a thousand suns, but I would say the same thing if this happened at any university anywhere in this country....oops, it does!

[NashVegas]

143. You're Correct, It Is Their Right

But if they harmed, or were witness to harm, of another person, and refuse to step forward, they lose all honor. To some of us, that's still important.

[Megahurtz]

131. Maybe then when those test and investigation results come back

you'll stop bitching.:silly:

:sarcasm:

[marions ghost]

156. LOL

you are naive to think that if you take a sworn statement "few if any are going to lie under oath..."

People lie under oath every day of the week. It's the norm...from low socioeconomic criminals to the most high business tycoons, lawyers and politicians. Every day. Talk to a lawyer that will fill you in if you don't believe me.

Wake up. The justice system does not scare people enough to prevent lying under oath.

Lying is no longer considered a legal or ethical problem in this culture, and forcible rape is seen as something you can certainly get away with lying about. That is what is really appalling in this case beyond the crime itself--that several people know what happened --but they will carry that knowledge to their graves if the system lets them. There is very little left of commonly held moral values. It's all about beating the legal system.

The truly disturbing thing here is the implication that intelligent men of privileged backgrounds have a different level of accountability, and therefore they don't even tend to see their crimes as crimes--ie. it's just a little hunting accident. It's just a little gang rape among friends. It's just a little theft of billions from American citizens. This attitude is pervasive. It is because of this that people may jump to conclusions in a case such as this rape. It fits the profile all too well. People are fighting back against this culture of corruption. They want to see accountability. They want the prosecution to be tough. Society must teach people right from wrong in the end if their parents and schools have failed.

You can't fault people of conscience for wanting to see society come down JUST AS hard on criminals from privilege as well as criminals from the underclass. That's what this reaction is about.

[Pavulon]

172. Strippers or Pros?

this could be a dispute over payment, or a rape.

Lots of these services are escort.

Could be lots of things. I will wait for the trial.

[LostinVA]

189. So... once again, a poster is damning the victim because of her

Profession... a Job she has to pay her way 5through college, and to support her children. So, did she also fake the signs of rape? Evidence bad enough that she wa hospitalized, and bad enough that the DA is aggressively pursing charges?

Sex workers, including strippers, are also women that can be victimized.... and often are, and get away with it... because of POVs similar to yours.

[Pavulon]

192. Open mind

I don't think anyone deserves to be raped. However not everything is simple.

It could be exactly what it is in the press or it could be more complex. If she was a prostitute and got stiffed on the bill is that rape?

No one knows the victim, their job, or their state of mind. However that is what a trial is for. Everyone gets to state their case.

Until a trial it is not possible to make any kind of conclusion on guilt or circumstance.

[Jack from Charlotte]

118. Mass hysteria, is what this is. *

*

[LostinVA]

137. You've said this in other threads: "having sex"

No one had sex... rape was committed. Rape is not sex. Rape is a violent crime, who many seem to confuse as sex, or a sexual ACT. It is not.

Your nastiness toward the "private party stripper
So yes, it is a wonderful cause.

And, you have your facts wrong: there is NO argument whether or not sex was consensula... the lacrosse players are saying no sex occured.... however, there was enough physical harm and evidence for her to be hospitalized, and for the DA to file charges and AGGRESSIVELY investigate this case.

BUt, you know all of this already -- you just like to come onto these threads and go fishing with misogynistic bait. Gosh, you got me...

[NaturalHigh]

147. How is "innocent until proven guilty" misogynistic?

There has been no trial, not even any charges yet. The investigation hasn't even been wrapped up, and the teammates are all saying they are innocent. Does that mean anything, or are you in favor of just saving money and throwing them in prison now?

[LostinVA]

138. Oh, so now rape investigations are "PC ideology (nice meme)"

Whatever....

[Megahurtz]

123. Heh heh heh.........

"The players have told school officials the assault did not occur.".......

We'll see if you guys can still say that after the DNA results come in.....:popcorn:

:rofl:

[Blue_Tires]

139. i hope for the victim's sake that

she was a virgin before this all happened...I'm smelling another "Kobe Bryant discredit-the-victim-using-her-sexual-history" tactic in the near future...

[LostinVA]

140. She has two kids -- so she's definitely a slut...

[Blue_Tires]

142. ruh roh

if those kids are by 2 different fathers, or if she had them at an early age, she might as well drop the charges now--I promise you any lawyer these Duke boys will hire will exploit that to the hilt.

[f-bush]

141. Why am I not surprised...

that this happened at a Southern University, better yet, by an athletic team. You certainly don't hear of a northern college Drama dept or Music dept being rocked with allegations like these.

[NashVegas]

144. Yankees Are Better At Sweeping Things Under the Rug

Especially when it comes to racism.

[marions ghost]

154. you would be surprised at the demographics at Duke

I would argue that the majority of students come from the north and from all over the country. I seriously doubt the Lacrosse players reflect a Southern bias.

Let's not go down the road that this is behavior typical of "a Southern University." That's just not the case.

[Pavulon]

171. Dude

Duke is 45k a year. Students from all over the country. This would never happen in an ivy league school, umm wait.

[NashVegas]

145. Brilliant Legal PR Strategy - Black Male and White Female Defense Lawyers

Just saw them speak on Scarborough (sp?).

[NaturalHigh]

149. There is more to this case than we've been told so far.

Timeline challenged...

DURHAM -- Two Durham police officers were investigating a reported disturbance at a Duke lacrosse party just 16 minutes before the alleged victim of a gang-rape there showed up at a grocery store more than 2 miles away to call for help.

But police found nothing at the scene, a police spokeswoman said.

Meanwhile, the district attorney began downplaying a link between the results of DNA tests that are expected as early as next week and any possible charges. He also said the DNA test results might not be made public when they return from the state forensics lab.

There is more. It's a very interesting read.

Now I realize that the screw the trial, hang the bastards crowd will dismiss this as shady tactics by the defense attorneys, this is all going to be pretty big stuff at any trial. There's a reason suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty.

[JohnnyJ]

150. While something bad may have happened......

I'm reserving judgement until they're proven guilty. That's the way our judicial system is supposed to work anyway in this country.

[LostinVA]

153. Correct, but we're not part of the judicial system

And only handful om here will even possibly be in the jury pool. It's a public discussion board, and we're just discussing! (Well, some are flamebaiting...)

[NaturalHigh]

158. A good portion of the "flamebaiting"...

is coming from the rabid crowd that thinks guilt is already proven.

[JohnnyJ]

160. re:

I just hope they don't turn the whole thing into another race war. We have enough of that shit to go around 100 times already and this is the last thing we need.

[Rich Hunt]

161. yeah just what we need

Is more sensationalist racial pornography from the media.

[LostinVA]

164. It sounds like many at the party are the ones who did that

Shouting racial epithets at a black woman, as well as into the neighborhood, isn't exactly fostering good race relations. From what we've been told, there is definitely more than a little racism in this event.

[JohnnyJ]

165. re

---
Shouting racial epithets at a black woman, as well as into the neighborhood, isn't exactly fostering good race relations. From what we've been told, there is definitely more than a little racism in this event.
---

Again - innocent until proven guilty. If we ignore that fundamental right then we become a bunch of fascists desiring the restrictive confines of a police state to shelve and rape our rights.

[LostinVA]

190. As I keep on saying: I'm not on the damn jury and never will be

How does discussing my opinion in a speculative thread on a public message board make me a fascist? Gosh, IT DOESN'T. If you don't like the discussion on this thread, then hide it.

[against all enemies]

169. Is the jury still out on OJ?

[NaturalHigh]

159. From the New York Times today...

New York Times Story

Kerry Sutton, who is representing Matt Zash, who lived in the house, said her client was one of the three captains who gave police a lengthy interview and written statement and offered to take a polygraph test.

"They told him it takes too long to set up, it's too much trouble, and it is not admissible in court," Sutton said.

Another lawyer, Jim Thomas, who represents a captain who provided the police with statements, said no team member was alone with the accuser. Thomas would not say which player he represented.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This isn't nearly as cut-and-dried as the DA is saying.

[LisaL]

170. The police found women's fingernails, her cell phone, and a bunch

of money went they went to the house. So, there is plenty of physical evidence. The woman said the nails came off when she fought her attacker who tried to choke her.

[Marie26]

183. What about that article makes you suspicious? nt

[NaturalHigh]

184. First, that the police don't care about taking a polygraph.

Second, if these guys really raped this woman, I would expect a "he said/she said" sort of them, her claiming rape, them claiming consensual sex. These guys are claiming that they didn't even have sex with the woman. They don't seem at all concerned about the DNA test results, even though the police obviously have some sort of DNA evidence.

[Marie26]

185. That's not suspicious

First, there's no need for a polygraph in this case. All of the lacrosse players are denying any sex took place. So, when the DNA evidence comes back, they'll know instantly who's lying. A polygraph isn't admissible in court, but DNA sure is. Second, if their story is true, why wouldn't the victim be worried about the tests - which would completely exonerate the team? Why bring the accusation at all if the DNA would prove it's false? Yeah, it's stupid for these guys to simply try to claim that it's all made up, but it makes sense from a "I didn't do it" standpoint. These are college kids, probably arrogant, & used to getting away w/stuff. They know that the police don't yet know who the perps are. So, they decide to protect each other, stonewall the police & hope noone figures out the truth. It's not a great strategy, but if they're really guilty, they don't have much else. Based on the evidence so far, they'd have almost zero chance of a sucessful consent defense.

[NaturalHigh]

187. I'm not saying that you're wrong...

and I'm not saying that you're right, either. We'll just have to see how the facts come out. Yesterday, there was a story that the DA has backed down from some of his earlier claims and does not plan to press charges if the DNA doesn't match any of the players.

[LisaL]

188. Police might never know who the perps are. Because there

were three alleged attackers, if all deposited DNA, it's going to be very difficult to figure it out because that DNA will be a mix of three people.

[auburnblu]

173. Having been a grad student at Duke

I am in shock and disgusted by the behavior. I read a letter submitted to the student newspaper in which a Duke alum who is now in law school at UNC recounts how she saw a group of over 10 Duke Lacrosse players come into a local bar the day after this broke the news. The writer told how they were getting drunk and screaming Duke Lacrosse constantly. What idiots. And these are not kids raised in the south I'm guessing, another person knocked southern schools. No Lacrosse is usually played in places like coastal Mass., where drunk idiots from rich families drive their cars into the water and leave young girls to die, then hire expensive lawyers to get them out of trouble. Just because someone is rich and has a family with a multi-million dollar compund doesn't mean I give them a pass. I hope if these guys are guilty they don't get away with it simply because like a certain situation I just mentioned, they are rich and the victim is poor. Most of the players are probably from rich white elite families from the Northeast DU, does that mean they will get an automatic pass from many on here? I sure as hell hope not.

I am ashamed as an alum, the Lacrosse season should definitely be suspended for the season. Clearly more diversity initiatives are needed for incoming freshmen. Duke is a very diverse campus, but clearly there are those who don't have much respect for others.

[Neil Lisst]

174. She claimed three men raped her in the bathroom.

Even if true, which is still very much in question, that means all the men in that photo except three are wrongly being treated as criminals.

It's an emotional case because everyone reads his or her own prejudices and conclusions into it. I don't care for Duke or college athletes in general, but they deny it, they've given DNA, and they've offered to take polygraphs.

I won't be surprised if the case against them falls apart in the next month. The phone call to 911 seemed to be a plant.

Of course, this is a topic on which many will already be building a gallows for the whole team.

[FredScuttle]

176. Hi Neil!

What's the Swami's take on polygraphs?

[LostinVA]

191. I would like to know this, too

I'm writing an article on the Swami's many forensic and statistical utterings for "Cult Theories USA." And teh deadline is getting closer!!!