Girl Sues School Over Confederate Clothes

[NVMojo]

FLORENCE, S.C. (AP) -

The family of a high school sophomore has filed a suit seeking to force school officials to allow the girl to wear clothing with Confederate flag images.

The federal lawsuit was filed Thursday by the North Carolina-based Southern Legal Resource Center, a Confederate heritage legal advocacy group.

Candice Hardwick, 15, said she wants to wear the Confederate emblem to pay tribute to an ancestor who fought for the South in the Civil War.

more...

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2006/mar/30/033004302.html

[benburch]

1. Bullshit.

The real reason is White Power and she is a fucking liar.

[NVMojo]

4. you bet! It's all about racism ...and these parents are pushing it

[Up2Late]

32. I bet if asked, the parents would say they get most of their "news" from

...Fox "news."

I'd almost be willing to bet, the parents are just doing what the angry man on the radio told them to do, file a "Frivolous Lawsuit."

I bet the RW must have checked and found that there really were not that many "frivolous Lawsuits" filed, each year, so they are filling them now, to pad their numbers.

[struggle4progress]

191. She's even lettin Kirk Lyons speak for her:

Mar 30, 2006
Group files Confederate attire lawsuit
By SHIREESE M. BELL
Morning News

<snip> Kirk Lyons, chief trial counsel for the SLRC, will represent the Hardwicks, who are seeking to have the school board amend its dress code to allow Confederate symbols, expunge Candice's school records of any "damaging marks," and pay an unspecified amount for punitive damages arising from Candice's treatment.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Lyons is affiliated with a number of white supremacist organizations and has represented former Klu Klux Klan members and radicals. <snip>

School district officials said they do not "ban clothing to avoid discomfort," but rather to avoid disruption, whether the clothing in question is revealing, derogatory, racially charged or gang-related. The district also doesn't have a "blanket ban" on Confederate symbols in the schools, the statement said. <snip>

School district officials said they don't see this case as a First Amendment violation or a matter of religious discrimination, as claimed by the Hardwicks. The Hardwicks said it's essential for Candice to wear the flag to accommodate her religious beliefs; the flag is a Christian symbol, they said, because it was designed to represent the Cross of St. Andrew. <snip>

http://www.morningnewsonline.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=FMN%2FMGArticle%2FFMN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835059478&path=!news

Apparently this is about white Christian womanhood ... :puke:

[Poll_Blind]

5. In the south, the confederate flag is really popular because...

...there is still a huge amount of anger and frankly embarassment for losing the Civil War. I don't know if you've lived in the deep south before (Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and the panhandle of Florida are the ones I have experience with) but it's a very real and very weird aspect of southern culture, especially among the less-educated.

In some places it's so ingrained they still don't cotton to Yankees much. I don't know about her being racist- she may be. But it's a weird cultural thing down there and it's very strong.

Of course, even as a Southerner, I realized as a child the war was bullshit and the South was wrong but some people, people steeped in tradition (regardless of how barbaric), adhere to the practice of honoring the Old South as somehow a better, gentler time. Freaky, I know.

Oh, and somewhere buried (not so?) deep-down is the dream of one day owning slaves again. I am convinced of that. Still, the young are easily trained to do or believe whatever the whack-ass parents teach them. (sigh)

PB

[NVMojo]

14. in a way, not getting over the outcome of the Civil War is an example

of how long some tribal type warfare goes on over in the middle east ...long, deep grudges ...

[benburch]

48. This is why I regert that we did not hang all Confederates.

Next time we will have to finish the job.

[DS1]

52. Hanging takes too long

[Canuckistanian]

187. Your sig pic just had me ROTF

:rofl:

[DrGonzoLives]

91. So you condone crimes against humanity

How very progressive of you.

[benburch]

109. They were are guilty of two capital crimes.

1. Enslavement of other human beings.

2. Treason against the USA.

[mondo joe]

116. Shall we put you down as pro-capital punishment?

Just checking. :-)

[coalition_unwilling]

118. Actually, slavery was legal before the Civil War. (n/t)

[benburch]

152. Not in the eyes of a decent human being it wasn't. nt

[mondo joe]

174. Are we just going to make up definitions now?

While what should be legal is subjective, what was legal is not.

[Critters2]

249. Treason wasn't

[DrGonzoLives]

130. "They"

"They" meaning the wealthy plantation owners who owned and perpetuated slavery?

Or "they" meaning anyone who fought for the Confederacy?

Should we have summarily executed everyone in Wehrmacht after WWII?

[benburch]

154. "They" meaning the slave holders and officers of the Confederacy.

Many confederate soldiers had little choice in the matter, and were essentially enslaved in the military because their salary was less than a token, and their service obligation kept being stretched indefinitely no matter what it was originally supposed to have been.

[Yupster]

200. Many Confederate officers

were anti-secession.

Jubal Early would be one example. He led one of Lee's nine divisions at Gettysburg. He actually took York, Pennsylvania before the battle. Take a look at a map and be amazed.

Anyway, he was a delegate to the Virginia secession convention and voted no.

Confederate Vice-president Alex Stephens was also against secession.

[benburch]

232. Then they should never have taken up arms. nt

[Yupster]

199. LOL - the USA had slaves a lot longer

than the Confederacy did.

How about they hang themselves first, then they can go after the Confederates. And then there's the genocide against the Native Americans that deserves hangin' too.

[pokercat999]

210. Right war .....wrong reason

We (Lincoln) should have let the South secede, form their own country and then invaded to end slavery. There is no reason to think that the contract between the states could never be broken. You've never changed your mind? You've never re-negotiated a contract? However (IMHO) there was a need to end slavery by what ever means necessary and there remains that need today.

I believe the enslavement of any person is a crime against all persons (crime against humanity) and should be stopped and the guilty punished.

However the withdrawal of the South from the USA was not treason in my opinion, and I still believe any State should be allowed by popular vote to withdraw.

[TriMetFan]

233. pokercat999 said:

"I still believe any State should be allowed by popular vote to withdraw."

An I agree with you. I think any State should be able to leave the U.S. Like the whole West Coast.

[pokercat999]

239. Just wait for the "big one" the west coast

will probably fall into the pacific

[TriMetFan]

241. Then we will die under our own laws and not some

Nazi Party Law.

[Critters2]

250. I keep reading that California rightfully belongs to Mexico.

Yet, when I suggest giving it back, I get flamed. Confusing.

[Inland]

257. It's not just a "contract between the states".

When the southern states left, they also pretended to end the US citizenship of its residents, and to end the rights of US citizens to move to, or travel in, those states under the protections afforded US citizens by the constitution and congress. That the south had no legal right to do. Even the slaves were, legally, US citizens. Whatever was necessary for the US to restore its sovreignty, it was legally entitled to do.

Relatedly, there's no contract preventing firing on US troops. I'm not sure if it's treason, because I'm not sure of the legal ability to renounce citizenship. But firing on US troops is certainly a crime, even if one says "time out!" before firing.

Moreover, I really don't see the difference between a) not allowing states to break a contract and b) allowing them to break the contract and then invading it for the sake of its citizens. In either event, it's the US citizenship of the CSA residents that is the right, legal and moral, to use force.

[Virginia Dare]

215. Jefferson, Madison and Washington were all guilty of #1

on edit: as was Lincoln's father-in-law.

[BoneDaddy]

242. Which in your mind...

gives you justification to act like they do, by devaluing human life as much as they did. Great logic.
Edit: NM I see in later post you were being sarcastic... God speed.

[coalition_unwilling]

117. I hope you're being sarcastic. A. Lincoln once said that

"he best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend." In this day and age of perpetual warfare, Lincoln's advice seems really a propos. But maybe that's just me.

The Confederacy enjoyed tremendous support among white southerners during the Civil War. Were you really proposing that all white southern supporters of the Confederacy be hung? I'm sure Lincoln, Grant and Sherman would have disagreed with you.

[benburch]

162. Yes of course I am.

But it is interesting to see the rationale used by people reacting to this. For some it is admirable, but others seem to want to support the Confederacy...

The germ of seriousness I have in here, though, is that most of our problems today are caused by white southerners who still have the ideals of the Confederacy, including the desire for enriching themselves by the unpaid labor of others, deeply in their hearts.

[coalition_unwilling]

254. Whew! Sometimes tone doesn't come through in these posts as well

as it should. But, having said that, I agree with you that the legacy of the Civil War lives on. As one example, the so-called "porous borders" in the South were themselves the product of the Mexican-American war of 1846-48, which most historians now see as a war to secure Southern slave-holding (expansionist) aims.

N.B. Abe Lincoln, as an Illinois representative in the U.S. House, opposed the Mexican-American war! IMHO, that anti-war stance gives him much greater credibility when he has to suppress the insurrection of the South. In other words, it's difficult to paint Lincoln as a 'war-monger' (as the South has been prone to do ever since 1865), once you know his earlier record.

[okieinpain]

245. exactly thank you very much. that should be used every time one

of those dumb ass repugs talk about how stupid people are in the middle east.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

17. Southerners don't "cotton" to Yankees 'cause Yankees ain't got "Soul"

Sorry- I' don't know where you grew up but
saying that southerners dream of owning slaves again
is about the most whacky thing I've ever heard a D.U.er say.
!!!!!
You'd really have to be derranged or have some sort of vendetta against Southerners to make a generalization like THAT!
(sure there are racists in the south but there are aso racists in Idaho)

I'm a New Orleanean originally --grew up there-and had cousins in Georgia/Mississippi/ Florida
(And for those interested read on, but if not this may be boring--)
but, my take on the anti Yankee thing is that it's all about "Cool"--it's all about "Soul"
just listen to Southern music--(the root of ALL rock'nRoll) and look at New Orleans music--

The anti yankee thing has to do with:

rhythm vs stiffness

warm vs cold

spicy vs bland

And it's partly just the way yankees talk--
all that "er" stuff and "poe tay toe"--"hardy har har" stuff--!!

And modern pop lingo has incorporated the "soulful way o' talkin' " and has shunned the stiff " Northern way of talking"-
-All the "yawl" stuff that's universally popular amongst the hip hop crowd nowadays came from the South.
And the way that white rappers like M&M try and imitate Southern "black" pronunciations-

I think the Confederate Flag is Stupid--but it IS part of history and it IS a free country-
Why try and hide the fact we that 150 yrs ago there was a Civil war ?

When you attended high school I'm sure they explained to you in history class that the Civil War
was more about the industrialized North wanting to exploit the rural South than it was about Slavery.
Slavery still exists today--it's just used to be worse-
At least we now have no ownership of humans and have a 40 hr work week and no child laborers-
but still... look at the migrant farm workers! and illegals-
-look at ALL working class non-union laborers of all races and national origins-
they are all slaves---minimum wage cannot feed a person and keep a roof over their head--

And SLAVERY IS WRONG - it's IMMORAL-- and has NO place in a modern society-
I'd vote to abolish all slavery NOW-
but it won't happen-
The republicans want to throw us back into the "Guided" age-
the age where there were no unions-
there was no income tax-
where the rich were the rich and everyone else was poor-

It's not about Black and White--it's about haves and have nots--

Wearing a rebel flag could be just a statement of defiance --
defiance against exploitation and carpetbagging by outsiders.
Look how they are trying to carpetbag New Orleans as we speak--not postponing the elections etc.,
!!
hope this makes sense to those who have never been south of the Mason/Dixon line

[Poll_Blind]

22. I didn't say "southerners dream of owning slaves again", you did.

For those who are obsessed with the false-ancestor worship and addiction to tradition when it comes to the South and the Civil War, that's a different matter...

Why would I insult everyone that I grew up with, along with a sizeable chunk of relatives?

PB

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

26. yes you did- quote:"deep-down is the dream of one day owning slaves again"

your words not mine
QUOTE:
somewhere buried (not so?) deep-down is the dream of one day owning slaves again. I am convinced of that

and ask yourself why you'd insult those you grew up with--you wrote it.
don't ask ME !

[LostinVA]

38. The Civil War was fought because of slavery

And, I've had several of my SO's relatives made the comment that they would, indeed, like to own slaves again.

[TechBear_Seattle]

50. Proven untrue

The Civil War had nothing directly to do with slavery. Mainly, it had to do with the power of the federal government to preserve the union of states in a national republic; by force of arms, it was established that states may not secede.

Where the war touched on slavery was on economics: northern goods were more expensive because workers had to be paid, while southern goods were cheaper because the workers were slaves. Journals and Congressional proceedings of passing the act that would become the 13th Amendment shows that the Representatives and Senators wanted to prevent another rebellion by destroying the economy of the former rebel states; there was very little regard for the civil rights of blacks. In fact, several pieces of legislation considered by Congress at the same time would have shipped all former slaves to Africa, whether or not they wanted to go.

[MadHound]

53. *BZZT* WRONG! Go study your history,

Go back to the source documents friend. In each and every declaration of seccession in the eleven Confederate states, it is proudly and loudly stated in either the preamble or the first paragraph that the reason the state in question is leaving the Union is due to preserving their "peculiar institution" ie slavery.

Yes, there were other issues involved, economic and cultural. But the single most important, overarching reason why the Confederate states left was slavery. Even if the soldiers themselves didn't have slaves, there was still the wish to keep the Southern status quo, where even the poorest white man had a better life, and could lord it over slaves.

This notion that the Civil War was about economics, or states' rights or whatever is simply revisionist history, designed to portray the South and the "Lost Cause" in a better light, after the fact. Go to the source documents, read the writings of the time, and you will be forced to acknowledge that the main reason for the Civil War was indeed slavery.

[apnu]

56. It is about economics

Slavery is directly linked to the South's economic survival, or so people thought at the time. The plantation owners thought they'd go bankrupt if they had to pay wages to their workers (slaves). It was all about economics -- almost every war is about economics. Hell, the crusades were about economics -- that is Europe's plunder of the Middle-East for example.

'States rights' was a code phrase for 'the Feds wanna take my money (slaves) away' Plus its the phrase the ruling class in the South used to get the lower classes, who formed the rank and file of the armies, to join up and die for the South's 'cause'

Anyway, my point is Yes they left because of economics -- but its the economics of slavery -- and its a very complex thing at that.

[depakid]

108. Nope

It was about westward expansion- political influence and SLAVERY.

Read the fucking material.

[coalition_unwilling]

126. According to James McPherson (author of "Battle Cry of Freedom")

the Civil War had many causes, but principal one was slavery. South wanted to expand slavery's reach and North and West (in general) wanted to restrict its expansion. Once the Southerners fired on Fort Sumter, the slavery issue was subsumed (but still present!) in the secession issue. And, of course, after the Emancipation Proclamation, abolishing slavery became a strategic Northern war aim, since "contrabands," i.e., slaves, were widely seen as enabling the white southerners to sustain the war effort

Far more interesting to me (as a social historian) is why so many young men went off so willingly to fight. Sure, some were motivated by preserving the Union (North) or by states' rights (South), some were motivated by abolition of or preservation of slavery. But all of those seem fairly abstract to me. I talked about this with my father (a Korean War U.S.M.C. vet) and he says he thinks most of the farm boys who enlisted did so because they wanted to "see the world" and get out of a boring farm life! (That's probably the main reason he enlisted and not to fight "global communism" or whatever dreck was then being served up.)

[Virginia Dare]

221. I think you're right..

another big reason was peer pressure to be sure.

[Uncle Joe]

227. I believe on the Southern Side,

it was because they felt like they were defending their homes from Northern aggression. The United States in those days was more a loose collection of states than one nation. This of course was before we had modern communication and transportation, the telegraph (about one per town)was the internet of the day and the train the equivalent of the airplane and many in the more rural areas could live more than a 100 miles from the nearest train station, everyone's world was much smaller than it is today. Many people, especially in the more rural South never traveled more than 50 miles from the place they were born. This formed a strong bond in the local communities and consequently New England might as well have been in Canada to these people.

P.S. As a former Marine, tell your dad I said Semper Fi.

[silvermachine]

74. Thank you...

...man some people just need to get over it. But they never will.
I have to say though, that the whole North/South dynamic is incredibly complicated. I'm originally from Western Pa, a little ways north of Pittsburgh. In 1986, in order to escape the economic impact of Reaganomics in the area, I moved to Alexandria, Va. Even though this could not be remotely considered to be the Deep South, I was stunned at how antipathy toward blacks was readily accepted and more blatant, even among educated people that frankly, you would expect better from. Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of bigots in Pennsylvania and in the North, though seemingly more of the neo-Nazi/anti-Semitic strain.

But there was something a little different about being even in Alexandria, which of course is not exactly the most rural part of Virginia. What I saw was the casual acceptance of bigotry toward blacks on a more ingrained level, almost as if it were a given, and, as a caucasian male, if I spoke up against it, I was told I was taking things too seriously, and getting worked up over nothing. This was and is a common attitude among co-workers and acquaintances. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. It wasn't like anyone was advocating violence, it was just this blase attitude toward racism that kind of blew me away. And in central and southern Va., well you can just imagine. I'm not implying that all or most of the folks here are like that by any means. It just seems like there is a greater "comfort level" for this type of thinking than what I saw in the North.

When I hear people talk about Northerners being stiff, I think sometimes it is not so much of a North/South issue as it is a rural/city issue. I know that coming from a small (former) steel town, I'm not crazy about all aspects of city life, (though I do love much of it). The self-important and oh so superficial attitude I see in the DC/Metro area is enough to turn off any rational person so I find myself often feeling more "at home" in the small rural towns that I visit and cruise through. I enjoy the casual, laid back atmosphere, the quiet pace, and the genuine warmth that I am nearly always greeted with by people living there.

And I must say that as a musician who tours every year, there truly is such a thing as Southern Hospitality. When I play in Atlanta, Athens, Birmingham, etc., the people there are unfailingly generous and welcoming in a way that is different than what you get in the North. I do think that we Yankees are just as warm in our own way but there is a unique and lovely charm about certain aspects of Southern culture. And let's be honest, it's not always easy to set aside feelings of discomfort that can arise when facing aspects of a culture that we are not familiar with.

I guess what I just can't get over is the lingering resentment of many Southerners concerning the Civil War. The need to defend the indefensible. Rewriting basic moral truths in the name of "heritage". WTF???? All the "South Will Rise Again", "Only Good Yankee Is A Dead One", etc. bumper sticker mentality. When I'm back home visiting in PA I don't see anyone riding around with a bumper sticker with a picture of Sherman on it saying "Don't Make Me Come Back Down There!" or anything like that.

[Virginia Dare]

78. All wars are fought ultimately for economic reasons...

and all wars are fought disproportionately by the poor and mainly benefit the rich. Slavery wasn't all about race, it was also about economics to a large degree. There were even a few blacks in this country who owned slaves. By the way, most Yankee soldiers weren't fighting to free the slaves either, and a good many of them were racists as well.

[TechBear_Seattle]

79. Slavery is why the south seceded. It is NOT why the Civil War was fought

The United States could very well have said good-bye to the South; it did not. It went to war with the Confederacy to preserve the union of states.

[tabasco]

195. Abolitionists were the most pro-war faction in the North.

To say that the war was fought only to preserve the Union is inaccurate.

[Yupster]

201. Interesting post Techbear

It makes a lot of sense.

Here's my take.

A twenty year old girl lives at home still. She has a sorry-assed good for nothing boyfriend, and tkes drugs.

Her parents say she must come in by eleven every night. She says she's too old to have to follow their rules.

So the girl leaves home.

Ask each side why the girl left.

The girl would say she left because the parents were trying to run her life.

The parents would say because she won't stop taking drugs.

Who's right? They pretty much both are.

Same thing with the Civil War.

The southerners say they fought so they could form their own government.

The northerners would say the southerners fought so they could keep their slaves.

They're both right.

[Inland]

256. Same difference.

It was the South's belief that union...plain and simple....would eventually end slavery. The declarations made by the state legislatures said so.

Therefore regardless of the motivations of the north towards union, it's pretty clear that everyone, everyone, knew that the South saw war as the means to preserve slavery, firing on Sumter to make secession a reality through force of arms.

It is true that the north could have let the south go, jsut as it could have made slaveowning legal throughout the union. But it didn't. Hm. In my mind, the Union must have agreed with the south in the essential premise, that eventually the political power of abolition would outweigh slavery, so much so that the North would rather have a secession and war instead of a political compromise taht gave any additional ground to slavery. Clinching it is the election of just such a person who would not have entered into that sort of compromise in a brand new party, which, as we know, was the final straw. There's not much difference between a desire to go to war to maintain union on THOSE terms and the desire to see an end to slavery.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

98. you've got it backwards- the North WON and rewrote history according to

their interpretation and justification of killing
HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of AMERICANS!
GENOCIDE !!
Violence was not then nor is it now justified for solving disputes..
Solving problems through killing is BARBARIC!

The Civil War of the history books is justified using the same methods they are using today regarding IRAQ.
Demonize the enemy -then justify kiling them.

And you can't confuse the idiotic actions of a few extremist groups with the actions of an entire region.
Once you de- personify and demonize an entire cultural group you've taken the first step toward nationalism and racism-
sort of what Hitler did.

[coalition_unwilling]

129. This may be hard for you to accept, but many Northerners

and Westerners believed in the Union as something sacred. Lincoln referred to the American experiment as "the last, best hope of mankind" and this was not simply rhetoric but a deeply-held sentiment among northerners. (Even racist northerners could hold to the principle of the "Union" as sacrosanct.)

In today's age, when every politician's utterance is greeted with an instant cynicism and contempt, it may be hard to cast your mind back to an age when some politician's utterances actually carried a quasi-mystical weight with their consituents. Among those would certainly have to be placed many of Lincoln's utterances.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

193. sorry- but the killing was the wrong approach-history was adjusted to

justify it-
racism has little to do with anything regarding the massacre of hundreds of thousands.

[MadHound]

165. Ummm, No.

Again, go back to the source documents, the declarations of seccession, the Constitution of the CSA, these and others will show you exactly why the South left the Union, and it wasn't states' rights, or economic oppression, it was slavery.

Nor was it the North who started the Civil War. No, no, it was indeed the South. First they tried to influence the election, telling the nation to elect somebody other than Lincoln or else, then they hatched a plot to assasinate Lincoln on the way to his inaguration, and when that failed, they secceeded from the Union, and fired on Fort Sumtner. It wasn't the North who fired the shot heard 'round the world, nope, it was the South.

And while I would normally agree with you that it is generally the victors who write the history books, that is untrue in this case. Nope, almost immediately after the war was concluded, one saw a blizzard of books, articles and pamphlets extolling the "Lost Cause", and rewriting history in order to make the South appear in a better light. My God, this even extended to the movies, where we have consistently seen movies showing revisionist history throughout the twentieth century, movies like Birth of a Nation, Gone with the Wind, and Gettysburg, just to name a few.

In addition, which is the one state in the country who chooses the vast majority of school books for the rest of the country? That would be Texas, a former Confederate state. And thus, we see the revisionist history creeping into our schools, infecting the minds of the naive and gullible, until now we see people who are arguing that it was the North who was the aggressor, it was the North who broke apart the Union, it was the North who started the Civil War.

So like I said earlier, go to the source documents, study your history, read the original transcritions of the war, not the umpteenth generation of pabulum that we see in textbooks and history books today. Go read, and then get back to me on who really started the war, and why it was fought.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

194. get over it --the Civil War was NOT fought because of SLAVERY !!

do some reading--then talk to me-

[Inland]

253. The South left the Union in order to perpetuate slavery.

Don't take MY word for it. Read the statements passed by the legislatures.

Here's a really cool one, from MS.

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/mississippi_declaration.asp

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.


Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.


*******

Now, I suppose someone could say it was the NORTH that caused the war, and it wasn't over slavery as far as IT was concerned, and I don't really care. South leaves, north fights to maintain union....it was the South's desire to keep slaves and it's knowledge that sooner or later, Union would end it, that caused secession and war. Nuff said.

[apnu]

55. Not totally true

See Fredrick Douglas and the Abolitionists.

Granted the South started the war over states rights and what they felt was Northern economic aggression. The slavery thing evolved into the war over time. Initially the North went to fight to "preserve the Union" many said. And a few Northern soldiers went to combat slavery (See Joshua L. Chamberlain's memoirs, he says he volunteered repeatedly because of slavery, and the Mass 54th all African regiment). Lincoln was losing popular support for the war in the dark times before the High Watermark (Gettysburg and Vicksburg). The North was sick of losing the war and began to cry for an ending -- to let the South just go (I wish they did, personally). So Lincoln had to recast the rationale for the war into better terms that people could get behind. He gave into pressure from the Abolitionists and Douglas and accepted them as allies. Hence the whole Emancipation Proclamation thing. It was a hasty decision, and a hasty crafted thing that didn't work well. But it served its purpose: to recast the war in moral terms of slavery. Many Northern regiments revolted, intellectually, at this idea and a lot of soldiers resented dying for slaves.

So yes you are right about the initial, economic, and political aspects of the war. But you neglected the popular (or lack there of) aspects of the war which were all over the place depending on where you came from. But its the popular end result that we remember and teach in grade school. Its easy to say the Civil War was about slavery, because in a sense it was, but also because its too confusing to explain to a 4th grader all about states rights vs. federal rule and how slavery ties into the economic life blood of the South that they felt was threatened by Northern industrial might (which was staggering by comparison to the South's industry).

(edited for spelling)

[TechBear_Seattle]

76. Many abolitionists pressed for an end of slavery, true. But...

The people who declared the war, the people who financed the war, the people who wrote the propaganda that manned the war... they didn't give a rat's ass about abolition except with how it would strengthen the power of northern idustrialists. Reconstruction was inspired mainly by abolitionists but the financiers and politicians gave it only minimal, short term support, which is why Reconstruction lasted only a few years and had no lasting impact.

[apnu]

85. You're right there

The power behind Lincoln didn't care about slavery. And most of the Northerners who fought in the armies didn't care about slavery, but none-the-less Lincoln had to re-cast the war in a more favorable light or the whole thing, and his presidency, was sunk.

The Civil War is a very complex time in American history and to say that it was fought over one thing, and one thing only (as many do) is erroneous. We're still, culturally, paying for the Civil War today. As for Reconstruction, you're right, it became, mainly, about industrial robber barons ripping everybody off. I think Reconstruction's failure has a great lasting impact today. These nut-bars who cling to white power in the South and put 15 year-old girls up to this kind of stupidity can be linked directly back to Reconstruction's failure and the deep-seated loathing the South has for the North today and, unconsciously, the South has for itself.

[TechBear_Seattle]

86. We are in agreement. n/t

[silvermachine]

57. Please give it up.

<<<The Civil War had nothing directly to do with slavery.>>>

What horseshit.

[Radio_Guy]

62. Slavery was one of many many reasons

To say the Civil War was fought for no other reason than slavery is to show pure ignorance. Try reading other sources of history besides what is only taught at Harvard and Yale.

I was born and raised in Alabama, and I have no desire to own any slaves of any color, creed or race. Yet we Southerners are painted with a huge paintbrush because of the incessant South bashing that goes on here.

[silvermachine]

77. I realize that there are other factors...

...I didn't claim otherwise. But to posit that slavery had nothing directly to do with the Civil War is just horseshit. Plain and simple.

<<<I was born and raised in Alabama, and I have no desire to own any slaves of any color, creed or race. Yet we Southerners are painted with a huge paintbrush because of the incessant South bashing that goes on here.>>>

Doubtless, that is the case. And people that feel that way (towards Southerners) are bigots. Plain and simple. I meant to offense to you whatsoever.
Please read my post #74.

Peace.

[DUHandle]

84. What do you expect from The Land of Cotton?

Old times there are not forgotten





edited for spelling error

[depakid]

107. Amazing that myths perpetuate even among the otherwise

intelligent.

Go back and read the Bills in Congress and the newspapers and magazines from, say- 1820-1861.

[TechBear_Seattle]

114. I have, and I stand by what I wrote. n/t

[depakid]

115. I realize this is 21st Century America

But facts are still facts- and "standing by what you said" doesn't make them any less true. Doesn't make the documents go away any more than it might heal the wounds on Senator Charles Sumner's head.

[Virginia Dare]

73. My ancestors owned slaves...

however, the ancestors who fought in the War for the South on my husband's side were poor farmers, never owned any slaves, and I don't think they cared either way. They were extreme racists, mind you, but slavery wasn't an issue for them. What brought them into the War was the occupation of Virginia by the Yankees. They didn't take kindly to it.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

89. My ancestors were documented to be among the first to free their slaves

Some of the earliest free black families in Virginia were free because of my great great great great grandfather-
-(that's the aproximate # of greats)-
He was all about justice.

[Virginia Dare]

142. That's truly something to be proud of...a radical idea for their time.n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

131. Well, we Northerners didn't take kindly to Fort Sumter

being fired on by P.G.T. Beauregard's Johnny Rebs :) Yes, it is fascinating to probe the motivations of individual soldiers on either side, I think. "Abolishing slavery" or "Preserving slavery" are pretty abstract ideas for your average 18-year-old farmboy.

[Virginia Dare]

145. It is fascinating...

I have ancestors who fought on both sides. I don't think you can look at it as a black and white issue (literally and figuratively), different people had different agendas. Probably no different than today.

[Yupster]

202. Luckily no one was killed in the bombardment

too bad 600,000 died later.

[fasttense]

43. We only salute one flag.

From a song about what I like about the North. Couldn't help it.

As a "so-called" damn Yankee living in the South, I get tired of explaining that the Mason Dixon line goes between PA and MD. Baltimore, Maryland is SOUTH of that line and that is where I was born. (I know because my parents once owned property right on the Mason Dixon in PA. The house was in the North the garage was in the South.)

[Up2Late]

92. That' kinda cool, living ON the Mason-Dixon line.

"...The house was in the North the garage was in the South."

Did you ever see that Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs is heading South and gets stopped at the Mason-Dixon line by Yo Sammity Sam? When ever I hear the words "Mason-Dixon line," I think of that cartoon, and how on one side it's all Green and lush, but on the other side, it's dry as a desert. :evilgrin:

[Anser]

208. Revisionist History

Race issues and slavery were the main things driving the civil war. The evidence is in the historical archives from all three branches of government.

Judicial: The Supreme court case of Dred Scott v. Sanford (Cite: 60 U.S. 393)

Executive: The Lincoln-Douglas debates (Transcript available at: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debates.htm)

Legislative: The Congressional record of the time and the heated exchanges between southern democrats and abolitionist republicans. (Too many places in the CR to cite, but the famous caning on the senate floor was over slavery)



There were of course other factors, but the statement that the Civil War was "about the industrialized North wanting to exploit the rural South than it was about Slavery" is completely historically inaccurate.

[The Gunslinger]

23. Not even deep south

I get that all the time in NC.

[Up2Late]

35. First of all, what she's holding up is NOT the confederate flag. never was

..., and never will be. Here's the small version of the picture from the Washington Post:



Go to this link to see the large version: <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033002303.html>

This was the Flag of the confederacy:

<http://www.anchorflagandflagpole.com/Confederate%20Display2.htm>

This one was one of many "Battle Flags" (the Army carried it into battle with them) and it also flew on the Confederate War Ships (known as a Navy Jack).

I'm sorry, but in 2006, only ignorant, racist, Red-necks are still wearing or flying and lying about that flag being "heritage," At least around here (I live about 3 miles from the "Kolb Farm" and "Kennesaw Mountain" Historic Battle fields. And even though I grew up in Indiana, I've lived over half my life here in Georgia, and would feel very out of my place up North now.

Also, My Great-Great-Gran-Father was a Colonel in the Confederate Army, and his house is still standing in downtown Columbus, Georgia. It's on the corner of 12th St. and 3rd Ave., on the National Historic Record, and yes, he probably had Slaves, though I don't know that for sure.

I hate to judge, but that girls mother looks like a trouble maker. I Googled her High School, and it's not an "all white" school, it's 46% Black 53% White <http://www.publicschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/72143>, they're just looking to start some sort of trouble.

Only a guess, but I think the deep seated anger toward the North and Washington D.C. is a result of "Reconstruction," or more truthfully, the lack there of. They didn't teach us much about it in U.S. History class, but I think 60+ years of Government imposted poverty, it tends to leave a few hurt feeling and resentment. I'm sure you and your neighbors in New Orleans will know what I'm talking about after a few more years of the current "reconstruction."

Here's a little more info about the "Southern Legal Resource Center": <http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=462>

"The Southern Legal Resource Center (SLRC), whose "chief trial counsel" is white supremacist Kirk Lyons, has in effect become the legal arm of the neo-Confederate movement...."

[LostinVA]

39. Not true! Reconstruction was working very well

But the military was seen as an "invader" -- and there as intense pressure from Congress to end it (the whole Andrew Johnson debacle ties in with this). As soon as it ended, blacks and non-racist, grudge-holding whites were victimized, and economic and civil rights progress ground to a halt.

Reconstruction was working, and if continued, would have changed what we have today -- but national politics and regional refusal to accept things (including defeat) killed it. People like the family in this story helped kill it.

[northzax]

63. yes, reconstruction was working

and then we gave up for political reasons, and we're still dealing with it 150 years later. That's in our own country. Imagine the issues we're creating in Iraq by not even bothering to try the reconstruction in the first place!

[Virginia Dare]

72. Majority of the confederate soldiers never owned a slave...

there was plenty of racism to go around back in those days. Neither side was innocent of it.

I'm not advocating the Confederate flag waving, by the way.

[Yupster]

203. Many of the Confederate soldiers

were anti-secession.

Even some of the leaders of the Confederacy.

The Vice-president spoke out forcefully against secession at the Georgia state secession convention.

They almost all agreed there was a Constitutional right to secede though so once the vote was taken, and their new country was invaded, then they joined the army and fought.

[struggle4progress]

192. Johnny Reb kilt my gramp's older brother but somehow ..

.. I manages not to work meself up into a continual lather over it ...

[MADem]

9. Time for school uniforms!!!

Enjoy your ass, honey, in a pleated skirt not more than one inch above the knee!

[arewenotdemo]

132. good idea

that would sure piss off her playmates...

If the school is half black I'd almost be content to let her make her racist statement. I guess I've got enough faith in the attitudes of the other white kids there and that it would serve to educate them about the current state of race relations, making her something less than a heroine in their eyes.

[slackmaster]

58. If I wear a British flag, does that make me a Royalist?

Do tell.

[benburch]

111. No, but the British flag represents a Constitutional Monarchy...

...in which the Monarch is a simple parasite.

The Confederate Battle Flag represents the desire to re-establish a slave holding society in an act of treason against the USA.

Nobody who is not an idiot uses it any other way. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a liar.

[slackmaster]

122. The British monarch was more than a parasite in 1776

The Confederate Battle Flag represents the desire to re-establish a slave holding society in an act of treason against the USA.

For some people I'm sure that is true. But that not necessarily the case for others.

Nobody who is not an idiot uses it any other way. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a liar.

I'm not sure whether to excoriate you for your ipse dixit fallacy, or demand your credentials as a mass mind reader, or ask what you have against idiots. So I'll do all three.

:evilgrin:

[benburch]

155. It is what it stands for NOW that matters. nt

[slackmaster]

156. OK, and what the Confederate flag stands for NOW is debatable

Obviously.

[benburch]

163. You may debate it.

I'll just continue to see anybody who wears it as a "cracker".

[slackmaster]

181. That is your right

:toast:

[Yupster]

204. I was good friends with the local general

in charge of the Sons of Confederate Veterans for this region of the country.

He was tragically killed in a carcrash a year or two ago while visiting his triplet grandkids.

Anyway, what the Starry Cross stood for to him was certainly not racism.

[orleans]

198. i'm sure she realizes the symbolism of this

especially since she said she wants to honor a dead relative
and is just being an asshole

but years ago--back in 1970 (and thereabouts) i remember i had a couple friends who had a confederate flag. now, maybe it was just in my little sheltered piece of dupage county, but we were all a bunch of little (note: little) hippies then (12-16 years old, getting stoned under the black lites and florescent posters, listening to donovan and worshiping hendrix)

and the confederate flag, to me and my friends symbolized rebellion--against the government, against "the system"

we called ourselves hippies, freaks, we flashed the peace sign and hated the war--older siblings were burning draft cards. we weren't racist, we were rebels--and that was what that flag represented.

at that time i was twelve and thirteen. it wasn't until i got older that i learned that that was the flag of "the old south".

how naive of us.
but maybe that was a more innocent time, and in the burbs we lived very sheltered white kid lives. there were no black kids in my grade school, or my junior high. and only a handful of kids at my high school who were black. maybe if we grew up in a more integrated neighborhood with friends of different races/backgrounds we would have known or understood what the confederate flag represented.

anyway--just a little story here--my point being that i remember a time and a place where it didn't necessarily stand for what it actually stands for. (but this was in illinois--not north carolina. chances are if we were growing up in north carolina we would have known all along what that flag stood for)

[KingFlorez]

2. Do you think people are stupid?!?

Little lying piece of scum, I bet her family are psychotic Bushbots. One thing I always say, is if you are a racist, don't lie about just come out and say it, you have no one to put an act on for.

[pokercat999]

212. "psychotic Bushbots" would describe MOST white people

in Florence, SC

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merwin]

6. Isn't this the same as being allowed to wear a shirt with the USA flag

with 13 stars on it?

They're both legitimate historical flags (as repulsive as some flags may be). I see nothing wrong with someone wearing this flag, as long as it doesn't have any bad phrases on it.

I understand the significance of this particular flag, but it's all a matter of free speech. If one is to ban the confederate flag, then all flags must be banned. Period.

[jukes]

18. schools have the right, & obligation

to limit "free speech" on campus if it is inclined to disrupt education or foment problems. she MAY see this as a sign of her "heritage", others will surely see it as a racial insult. this one is way too easy to spot as disruptive, and any1 supporting her "cause" needs to cease disrupting here.

[BiggJawn]

95. So I could wear a Kriegsmarine flag?

In "honour" of some distant relation I'm not sure about who was a Funker on a U-Boat?

Heritage is heritage, after all...

[Hobarticus]

161. The silence is deafening, ain't it? n/t

[BiggJawn]

217. Yep. The Prosecution Rests....eom

[Dogmudgeon]

7. She's a fifteen year old kid, folks

Save the high-octane insults for the adults ... like her parents, who are probably behind it.

Ignorant kids have a way of becoming sadder-but-wiser adults. It's happened before. Often.

--p!

[slackmaster]

59. Pigwidgeon gets it - Everyone take this post to heart

Ignorant kids have a way of becoming sadder-but-wiser adults. It's happened before. Often.

Word.

[nodehopper]

136. let's hope it happens to the Prussian Blue girls

[Chulanowa]

8. Being originally from the south myself

I don't find the battle flag "racist" at all. It's just a freaking flag. If you want a racist flag, look at the United States flag. The Cavalry flew it while massacring Natives. It's flying over Iraq while the populace is being murdered. It flew with the bombers that annihilated Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

To the point of the article, I say why worry? ANYONE who wears a flag as clothing looks like a stupid tacky hick. If she wants to look like a terbaccer-chawin' boondocker... Well, good for her.

[Erika]

11. Welcome to DU n/t

[NVMojo]

15. in some ways, i agree with you but I fear there is more to this short

story then meets the eye ...I live in an area where trucks drive around with Confederate flags on them and no one says anything about it or cares ...but then, this area is primarily caucasian ...

[jukes]

21. i, too, live in an area

where trucks drive around displaying that flag. in fact, there's a registered Klan office in the town where i live. believe me, i CARE.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

19. -------- Excellent !! --- it really IS as you say -Just a freakin' flag!

(read my post up above)

[LostinVA]

40. It is a racist flag

It stood for slavery,a nd it stands for even worse things now: the Klan, Neo-Nazis, a certain mindset. An extremely small percentage of people I know ho fly it, have decals on their car, etc., even make believe heritage has anything to do with that -- and even then, only after pointed questioning. You can be proud of ancestors who gave their life for a cause, but being proud of that cause is racist... because it was, inherently, an evil cause. You have never claim nobility from the subjugation of people. Ever.

It is racist. Look at the civil rights era, and when the flag began appearing on state flags.

It is racist. Ride through certain parts of the country and see it flying. My redneck, racists relatives in NJ fly it from their house. Their Irish-American ancestors fought for the Union. It stands for fascism, racism, violent biker gangs, Neo-Nazis, etc. It doesn't stand for blood shed by Southern farmboys.

The flag is inherently racist -- it was founded on racism and lives today because of racism.

Many horrible things have been done under the US flag, this is true. But so have some very noble things. And, the flag is not inherently racist, although some in DC are trying to stain it permanently with that ism.

No one on this board would stick up for someone wanting to claim pride in their heritage by wearing a swastika to school.... this si literally no different.

Oh -- and when were you suddenly able to wear anything you want to work? I doubt you are. This is the same thing. And, it's also why I'm for school uniforms.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

90. to say it STOOD FOR slavery as your opening line shows your ignorance

read the other posts- I don't even have time to dispute every line in your post.

[Virginia Dare]

218. Do you deny that racist organizations, including the KKK

used and continue to use it as a symbol?

:shrug:

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

229. wouldn't know about those organizations-but I love the Anarchy logo!

everyone should be free to wear it!
or any other logo-
and they shoukd be able to wear a dunce cap too if they want to!
Freedom--or free dumb--freedom to be dumb!!!
or smart--
good taste-
bad taste?
who cares?

peace out!

[Virginia Dare]

230. Anarchy might be a cool concept...

doesn't work very well realistically though.

[Virginia Dare]

231. By the way...

don't you find it just a little bit ironic that you call LostinVa ignorant but you say you don't know anything about the KKK?

[Erika]

10. She's not into racial sensitivity, is she?

Does she not care that the confederate emblems are viewed as racist?

We fought that war once already.

[fishwax]

209. once is never enough

and some people will just never give up the fight, I guess :/ ...

[bluestateguy]

12. It must be hard knowing that you got your ass kicked in a war

They got their asses kicked by a regiment led by a college professor with no military experience on Little Round Top.

Let the girl wear her stupid clothes.

[coalition_unwilling]

133. Not to mention a drunk (Grant) and a nutjob (Sherman), I use

both labels affectionately, especially with regard to Sherman. My wife thinks the reason he suffered such heavy depression early in the Civil War is that he was one of the few to forsee how bad it would get before it was over.

[HuffleClaw]

13. 'Confederate heritage' ????

what crock is that? what loons are FINANCING that 'advocacy group' i wonder.


http://www.slrc-csa.org/ <=--- "...vital information for those concerned with preserving Southern Heritage, from the merely interested, to those under attack by South bashers..."

[niyad]

16. confederate heritage? the assumed RIGHT to OWN other human

beings? this is a heritage that they think is worthy of preserving? righhhhtttttt.

[jukes]

20. i support the right of southern sympathizers

& apologists to wear/display the real emblem of their heritage: the final flag to fly over confederate troops was a white rectangle; a badge of shame & surrender.

[mefoolonhill]

24. The Southern Legal Resource Center

Here's all you'll want to know about the outfit filing the suit:



http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=462


Southern Legal Resource Center
Black Mountain, N.C.

The Southern Legal Resource Center (SLRC), whose "chief trial counsel" is white supremacist Kirk Lyons, has in effect become the legal arm of the neo-Confederate movement.

Billing itself as a defender against "heritage violations" ý attacks on the culture and symbols of the old South ý the SLRC formed in 1996 with the same office, phone number and many of the personnel of Lyons' predecessor group, the racist CAUSE foundation.

When the SLRC was created, the League of the South exulted, "Dixie's answer to the ACLU has now formed!" Today, the League still solicits contributions for the nonprofit SLRC.

The executive director of the SLRC is Lourie A. Salley III, a member of the speaker's bureau of the League's South Carolina chapter (that chapter's Web site describes Salley as a specialist on the legal and constitutional grounds for partition of the United States).

The SLRC is mainly run by Lyons and his brother-in-law Neill Payne, and it has handled a number of cases involving the Confederate battle flag. But controversy has dogged the SLRC in Oklahoma and Georgia because of Lyons' extremist background.

The SLRC has worked closely with the League, the Heritage Preservation Association, the Sons of Confederate Veterans and an array of other Confederate flag defenders.

[jukes]

25. tx for the research, mef!

pretty much clarifies the intent, y sucks the wind right out of those billowing stars & bars!

[NVMojo]

28. boy ...this says it all ....

thanks for posting

[underpants]

49. I knew it from the name

but thanks for the info

[DRoseDARs]

27. She better be able to prove the lineage that she claims, otherwise...

...the whole premise of her lawsuit falls away.

[JohnnyJ]

29. re:

I believe in free speech - even hate speech. If this hick-chick wants to make an ass out of herself - let her.

Remember, the courts have said the same thing many times over: hate speech is protected speech.

Our freedom of speech is what protects us and stops us from being like China.

[LostinVA]

41. She has no right to do so while at school

Just like we can't wear or act however we want at work. Same difference. She can wear whatever the hell she wants to outside of school -- or work -- but free speech doesn't extend to the school hallway... or the business cubicle. Even if you go to public school. Even if you work for a govern met entity.

[Yupster]

205. AgreeLostinVa

The school has a right to limit stuff if it interferes with learning.

The school just needs to enforce its policy across the board which I assume they do.

[bliss_eternal]

30. They should let her IF she is willing to sign a contract

that releases the school from any liability when she get's her ass kicked everyday by other students.

[Yupster]

And a gay student should be able to wear a gay pride flag

if he signs a contract agreeing the school isn't responsible for his ass-whuppings?

No I think not.

The school is responsible for providing a safe learning environment to all its students regardless of what they're wearing.

[Yupster]

206. And a gay student should be able to wear a gay pride flag

if he signs a contract agreeing the school isn't responsible for his ass-whuppings?

No I think not.

The school is responsible for providing a safe learning environment to all its students regardless of what they're wearing.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

31. One time passing

one of those civil War reinactments while driving in southern Indiana, I go by the field their "playing war" in and honk the car horn and yell out the window "You lost dumbasses, 150 years ago get over it" and drove away. I was about 18-19 at the time not the most mature thing to do but the look on South's face was priceless.

[PBass]

33. She can wear her stupid flag clothes any time she wants, when

she is not on school property.

Yeah yeah, it's a free country and all that. There's no bans on handheld video games, but students shouldn't demand to be playing them during class. It's the same kind of thing... inappropriate for the school setting IMO.

She's got 16 hours a day outside of school to wear her flag outfits. If it bugs her that much, she can drop out. A perfect chance for this brainiac family to go the Home Schooling route.

[Bridget Burke]

60. Most re-enactments include representatives from both sides.

I know that our San Jacinto Day celebrations now include quite a few folks dressed as the proud Mexican soldiers who made a long trek from home & fought well. (Too bad Santa Ana was a scumbag. Merciless in victory & craven in defeat, he eventually sold off half of Mexico.)

In the modern day, the Battle Flag became a symbol for opponents of integration & civil rights. It should NOT be worn in a public school.

[apnu]

66. Important point you made here.

In the modern day, the Battle Flag became a symbol for opponents of integration & civil rights. It should NOT be worn in a public school.

Thank you for saying that. The issue that gets everybody riled up here is the symbol of the thing. Sure its the battle flag and not the official flag of the Confederacy, but it is a symbol of the Civil Rights era.

Though I consider myself as an amateur student of the Civil War, when I see the Battle Flag I can't help but think of images of African Americans being set upon by dogs and fire hoses in the streets of the 1950s and 1960s. Because that's what the flag symbolizes today. Maybe tomorrow it might mean neo-confederate nazis, but today it recalls church bombing in Alabama to me and many other people.

[rucky]

34. Now there's a cause I can really get behind.

Doesn't her mama give her enough attention?

:eyes:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

36. I honor my southern ancestry by NOT wearing or displaying that flag

They were big enough to realize they lost the war; and they got over it.

[LostinVA]

42. Great answer! It's almost exactly what my ex said:

She said she honored her ancestors who died in the war, who were all illiterate farmers, by not being an uneducated, ignorant redneck.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

99. Exactly what my great grandfather would have wanted too...

He was a Georgia blacksmith.

Peace. :-)

[Liberal Veteran]

46. What's amusing to me is the same people who fly the rebel flag...

...are probably the same people who scream "America! Love it or leave it!" and don't realize they are talking about a flag that was flown in an attempt to leave the United States.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

100. Excellent point!

It proves that the flag is a symbol of ignorance.

[Radio_Guy]

70. Exactly

The war was almost 150 years ago. It is over. Anyone who flies that flag out of "heritage" needs to focus more on the here and now and live in the present.

And as for that kid, even though I contract out my services, I have respect enough for others to not wear that flag even if I wanted to. I can't be fired, but I still respect the dress code of the company I work with. The kid should do the same. It is not a free speech issue.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

101. It's a good case for insisting on school uniforms.

Then there's no question.

[Radio_Guy]

104. I'd go for that

NT

[DumpDavisHogg]

190. That would be unconstitutional

Mandatory uniforms in public schools violates the First Amendment though.

The First Amendment means we all have to put up with what's offensive. Such is life.

[xchrom]

37. why does she hate america?

[zbdent]

44. Hope the school allows black girls to wear shirts with

pictures of this girl with a noose around her neck . . . that's "freedom of expression", along the same lines as the "historical flag" . . .

[Liberal Veteran]

45. I grew up in the south and am still baffled by "confederate heritage"

The confederacy only existed four years. It didn't have much of an opportunity to create a "culture" or a "heritage".

[Robb]

51. Great point

I got $50 says she doesn't know that.

[Bridget Burke]

65. By "confederate heritage" they mean ante-bellum days....

When all the men were like Ashley Wilkes & all the women like Melanie. (Scarlett O'Hara was insufficiently ladylike & made a bundle during Reconstruction.) When lower-class whites were considered "trash"--even though they later fought & died for the Confederacy.

Texas was, indeed, a slave state--but the pernicious institution didn't last long here. It began after ties with Mexico were severed. (Mexico had abolished slavery while fighting for independence from Spain.) And it ended on Juneteenth. (On June 19, 1865, Union soldiers landed in Galveston & let Texas slaves know that the War was over & they were free. This holiday has spread from Texas across the country.)

[apnu]

68. "confederate heritage" is a code phrase for "white supremacists" today

See post #24 for who's really behind all of this. Linkie: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2199204#2199361

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

96. you are WAY WAY off- that idea is ignorant- and mis-informed

and I'm sure you would see how stupid your post sounds if you just did some
sociology studying -
and researched the topic by by living amongst the indiginous peoples,

There are some great classes in " Sociology of the South"-
At LSU- and many Southern Universities.

Education is the best means of wiping out ignorance-

..and your idea about Southern Heritage is one of uninformed bias.
--it's one of ignorance

[LafayetteTGR]

255. I took a couple of those classes at LSU

Great Stuff!:-)

[Hosnon]

81. Officially it may have existed for four years but the culture existed

for much longer.

[Yupster]

207. I think it's the amount of loss rather than

the amount of time.

About one-fourth of all the adult white men in the south died during those four years and another one fourth were wounded. And that's not even including the burnt cities, ruined transportation, killed livestock and worthless currency and debt.

That kind of loss created quite a common bond .

[maxrandb]

47. Let's see how strong her convinctions are

She can wear the confederate flag (in reality, a symbol of a foreign government that declared war on the United States) at a public school in the heart of Harlem.

[apnu]

71. she may still get her ass beat at her school.

Someone noted that the school is something like 43% black and 54% white. There's enough people there that would be so incensed by her shirt she'd get it anyway. But Harlem, geez, that'd be a death sentence.

Its also possible that the school board is thinking they don't want that kind of disturbance in the school at all. Which, according to the SCOTUS, the school has the right to do. Frankly, in that light I agree. She shouldn't wear the shirt because she's just looking (and probably going to get) a fight at the very least, and most likely she'll be a giant distraction to the whole school.

High School is about learning, not making political statements, stirring up trouble, and picking fights (all great pastimes of teenagers however)

[Le Taz Hot]

54. I find it simply fascinating that

yesterday on DU, people on this board were advocating the right of protesters to carry the Mexican flag and the next day, the argument is AGAINST someone wearing a garment depicting the confederate flag. Ah, hypocrisy, thy name is faux liberal.

[SidDithers]

61. They're not disputing her right to wear that flag...

they're disputing her right to wear it to school. There's a subtle, but significant, difference there.

But I'm sure you knew that.

Sid

[Le Taz Hot]

170. No, actually I don't know that.

Why should our children have less rights to free speech than adults? There are no caveats here.

[mondo joe]

177. Well actually, there are. And the key differences are twofold:

1. Children are required to attend school which places a special onus on the school.
2. They are minors, and minors have never been held to have the same right of free speech as adults.

[Le Taz Hot]

183. But I'm debating the basic right of

freedom of speech here. And yes, I'm taking the First Amendment literally, without caveats and without editing. The SC doesn't interest me here nor do school rules. The Founding Fathers stated these rights are "endowed by our Creator" so it doesn't matter what the Supreme Court or the school or your neighbor Fred says. The right is inaliable.

[mondo joe]

186. Even though the same Founders did not extend the full

set of constitutional rights to minors?

Okay...

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. They do have fewer rights at school

It has been challenged in many court cases and schools have consistently won. They DO have the right to enforce dress codes and to limit what kids write in school newspapers. They can also search kids lockers without warrants.

[Le Taz Hot]

184. But again, it doesn't make it right.

Remember, the Supremes have, at various times, ruled the following: Slavery is Constitutional, your vehicle can be searched without probable cause, recording cell phone and cordless conversations is legal without a warrant, corporations are equal to individuals, vote counting can be halted but just for Bush (remember, they stated that one didn't set precedent) just to name a few. Were/are these rulings in the spirit of the freedoms our Founding Fathers envisioned for us? Not in my opinion they aren't. See my post above for more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. That's not the point

The school has the right to enforce a dress code. She won't win this case in court.

[Le Taz Hot]

189. Again, you miss my point

either by choice or ignorance or both. Either way, I'm done here.

[Llewlladdwr]

240. What then....

would be your position on the students who raised the Mexican flag above an upside-down US flag over their school? Protected free speech or punishable offense?

[Bridget Burke]

67. Sorry, I'm a real liberal.

The little idiot goes to an integrated public school & the Battle Flag has become a symbol of resistance against integration & civil rights.

Did you know that slavery was abolished in Mexico before it was abolished here? And that ONE reason for the Texas Revolution was the wish to bring slaves in?

[Le Taz Hot]

113. "Little Idiot??"

Work with kids much do you? The Confederate flag means different things to different people and we have no way of knowing what it means to her. All that is irrevlavent, however as the First Amendment guarantees the right to express ALL points of view, not just the ones you agree with.

[Kingshakabobo]

121. Not on school grounds it doesn't. n/t

[mondo joe]

124. So I hear every time someone wears an Anti-Bush t shirt

to school and is sent home.

[Le Taz Hot]

135. If you can find the school exemption from this

I need some of what you're smoking:

"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

[Kingshakabobo]

169. The issue was decided in 1969 by the supreme court.

In this famous decision, the Court ruled 7-2 that public school officials could not censor student expression — the wearing of black armbands, in that case — unless they could reasonably forecast that the student expression would cause substantial disruption or material interference with school activities or would invade the rights of others.

Many courts will analyze student dress cases under a threshold test established by the Supreme Court in flag-desecration cases. This two-part test asks: (1) whether the student intended to convey a particular message, and (2) whether reasonable observers would understand this message.


http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?case=Tinker_v_Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_Dist

[Bridget Burke]

137. Quite a few schools have dress codes.

She's free to wear her t-shirts anywhere else.

I live in Texas. I know what that fucking flag means.

[AlCzervik]

64. No where in the article does it say it was "Family heritage day" so my

question is what promted her to do this? Me thnks her parents are behind this.

[Tempest]

69. Here's something I bet no one thought of

I'm hearing a lot of complaints about the immigration protests and the flying of Mexican flags. Those who are complaining say the protesters should be flying American flags.

I'm willing to bet not one of those complaining about the Mexican flags would have anything to say about the flying of the Confederate flag, which does not represent America.

[anotherdrew]

75. to hell with her traitorus relatives. honor? they no not of it

fuck the southern bull-shit confederacy and fuck anyone who likes to suck up to it's memory today. I'd be more than happy to stage another Shermans march today and finishes off what was left undone. Bunch of god damned traitors who deserve to be forgotten.

[Virginia Dare]

80. I take it you're a Yankee?

:hi:

[anotherdrew]

151. well, just a bit...

the Sons of the Union Soldiers League? I just think if one group wants to make a big deal about it all the time, rubbing some more salt in all the time, it should be a two way street. If they want to 'remember' their 'heritage', it should be noted that those ancestors choose to attack and kill their fellow citizens, all in chase of a dream of running a hemispheric slave empire. Thank god the norther forces were able to stop it, that time, too damn bad we've let them nearly get away with a modified vision these days.

The big mistake after the war was that some of the southern states should have been consolidated.


Here's some background info and such on The Southern Dream of a Caribbean Empire (1973)

"War ranks among the strangest forms of willful self-destruction, and America's Civil War of 1861-65 in turn ranks among the strangest of wars. Three-quarters of Southern military age men served in the Confederate ranks, and of these almost 40 percent fell. What prompted these men to cast away their lives with such abandon, and what motivated their enemies to slaughter them?

...

The first lie addresses a glaring question: If the South fought the war to preserve chattel slavery, what possessed the 80-90 percent of southerners who owned no slaves to die for a practice from which they drew no immediate benefit? Professor Gary W Gallagher (The Confederate War, Cambridge 1997) represents the scholarly side of this myth, while popular fiction and films such as Gods and Generals dish it out to the broad public. That does not wash; one does not register 40 percent casualty rates for sentimental reasons. Catastrophic casualties pile up when a conqueror rallies greedy men to his banner. Ask the half-million men who marched to Moscow in 1812 under Napoleon Bonaparte's banner why they fought for an emperor, although they had no empire of their own. Napoleon said it best: Every soldier carried a field marshal's baton in his rucksack. The same apples to Alexander of Macedonia, Mohammed and his successors, the Thirty Years' War General Albrecht von Wallenstein (1583-1634), Francisco Villa during the Mexican civil war of 1910-18, the Germans during World War II, and so forth.

The unpleasant fact is that Southerners who had no slaves hoped eventually to get some, and fought for the Confederacy for the same reason that Napoleon's freebooters fought for the emperor. In fact, Southerners had been fighting for the right to bring slaves to new territories for a generation prior to the outbreak of war, in Kansas and elsewhere. Cotton, their principal cash crop, exhausted the soil in a decade's planting, and the planter took his slaves and moved on. Slavery and the Southern economic system would choke to death without expansion. Had the South formed an independent state, it would have embarked on a campaign of conquest and imposed slavery on the whole southern half of the Western Hemisphere.

Professor Robert E May demonstrated this in The Southern Dream of a Caribbean Empire (1973). Of hundreds of newspaper citations in May's book, here is one: "The Memphis Daily Appeal, December 30, 1860, wrote that a slave 'empire' would arise 'from San Diego, on the Pacific Ocean, thence southward, along the shore line of Mexico and Central America, at low tide, to the Isthmus of Panama; thence South - still South! - along the western shore line of New Granada and Ecuador, to where the southern boundary of the latter strikes the ocean; thence east over the Andes to the head springs of the Amazon; thence down the mightiest of inland seas, through the teeming bosom of the broadest and richest delta in the world, to the Atlantic Ocean'."

... the rest at: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FB10Aa03.html

[Virginia Dare]

213. My ancestors actually fought for both sides..

so I guess I look at it a little differently. I can't figure out the motivation for my Kentucky ancestors to fight for the Union, they were migrant slaveholders from Virginia. :shrug:

For what it's worth, I've read numerous diaries and memoirs of both civilians and soldiers of the Civil war on both sides, and never once did any of them on either side express that they were fighting about slavery. Not to say that they weren't thinking about it, but they didn't express it in their writing.

That was certainly the overriding political reason for the War, but I'm not so sure that the average citizen or soldier of the time saw it that way.

It's a subject that will be debated for a long time I'm sure.

[Hosnon]

82. You need a stiff drink. nt

[anotherdrew]

143. you got that right n/t

:toast:

[Virginia Dare]

83. We had a case here at our local high school..

a boy wore a shirt to school with a picture of shrubby that said "George Bush, International Terrorist". They sent him home.

The point is, school administrators cannot allow students to wear anything that might be disruptive. It's just not the place for it, no more than the workplace is.

Exercise your Civil Liberties after school. And I agree with school uniforms whole heartedly for many reasons.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

94. Exercise your civil liberties AFTER school?- what country do you live in?

Exercise your civil liberties AFTER school?
---- behind closed doors?

School is an instiution of Learning-
It is the VERY place to learn about civil liberties.

So who gets to decide if a certain logo is ok on a shirt?
The pro Bush Principal or the Anti-Bush Principal?

Should kids get inspected on the way in the door each day?
Maybe everyone should vote on who is offensive or not on the the way in the door each morning.
Is there a rule that one must appear neutral?
Is there some sort of Law?

Is this Soviet Russia?
Or a totalitarian dictatorship?

Uniforms are the first step in removing individuality-
First step in homogenizing andf BRAINWASHING-
The first step in military regimentation.



In a truly free country the freedom to express ones-self is not "qualified" by a person from
the Neighborhood Watch, the PTA, or any Principal, Faculty or Church.

[Virginia Dare]

140. So are you saying she should be allowed to wear the shirt?

Should kids be allowed to show up with Nazi swastikas?

Who gets to decide?

What I'm say is, it's disruptive. The Principal's job is to administer the school, not be a Constitutional lawyer.

Can you wear anything you want to your workplace? It's the same principal here. Certain things are acceptable certain places, and not acceptable others. That's a fact of life. Respect other people. That's a part of being a good citizen, something we should be teaching our kids.

I'm as liberal as the next person, but I really think there is a limit. And I'm not talking about military type uniforms. I'm talking about having a dress code, that's all. I don't think that infringes on anyone's rights at all.

on edit..by the way, I live in the United States of America last time I checked.

[northzax]

171. or call each other (or the teacher, perhaps) names in class

"Well, like that cock-sucking whore Natalie said" or maybe the teacher can do it to? "yes, you, the dirty spic in the back row" or perhaps "of course you got that question wrong, you're a stupid nigger slut."

freedom of speech rocks!

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

211. who draws the line-? who? the PTA? the Christians? the Murkins?

Disruptive?
Who decides?
You? Me?
A judge? (one appointed by Bush?)
We both have different ideas of what's ok-
Just think about the disagreements that others who you'd place "in charge" would have.

Uniforms are like Soviet Russia so you had to change that idea once I pointed it out.
You said you want uniforms--now you change to dress code-
No one gets to decide what is appropriate in a truly free country.
That's the idea of "free"--get it?
You mentioned it's a matter of Respect?
We should teach children to learn to respect each others freedom of expression.


Sorry, but as far as T shirts in a free country :
Swastikas are cool
Flags are cool
Punk is cool
Skate logos are cool
Rap ganstah logos are cool.
Almost anything you want to wear-


we need to learn to get over the small stuff and concentrate on
more important issues rather than worrying about visuals.
Unless it incites a riot or is explicit sexual photos there really should be no problem.

next maybe shoes are offensive to someone--then hair styles- then hair color-music choices-


This is America the free not America the censored.

[Virginia Dare]

216. "Free" does not mean anarchy, that is what you're describing..

I mean, why not just let the kids come to school naked if they want? Society must have discipline, society must have acceptable standards, and yes, at some point, it needs to be decided by someone or a group of someone's in authority. That's what laws are. That's the way life works. We don't operate on a free-wheeling do whatever the fuck you want whenever the fuck you want basis. You can't drive down whatever side of the street you want to. You can't walk down the street screaming obscenities at everyone you see. I'm very certain that is not what the Founding Fathers' had in mind. Part of the responsibility of living in a Democracy is being a good and responsible citizen. This includes respecting others' beliefs.

An employer has the right to enforce a dress code on his employees. A principal and/or school system has the right to enforce a dress code. I stand by that.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

223. pubic schools are public not private

and as long as a logo doesn't incite a riot
there is absolutely no reason to censor it.

I love the Anarchy logo.
Anyone should be able to wear it to school.

[Virginia Dare]

228. Okay, so apparently your limit of tolerance is a riot...

I'm guessing the only time you've spent in school is as a student.

[zanne]

87. Do southern kids read the same history books....

I've wondered about this after reading so many posts here by southerners who say that the Civil War wasn't fought to free the slaves. I have a feeling North and South were taught different U.S. History when in school. Anybody know anything about this?

[Sinti]

88. Nope, different perspective entirely

Southern kids are not taught that the Civil War was fought over a single issue, slavery. It's a very complex and nuanced position that's taught in southern schools. It's about the right of states to make their own laws, as Roe V. Wade and anti-sodomy laws are actually about privacy when brought before the Supreme Court.

Funny thing is, the vast majority of these rebel flag waving ass-hats are not "real" southerners in the historical sense. Their folks DID NOT FIGHT the civil war, they came after. Some people would call them carpetbaggers. The vast majority of southerners that fought, and survived, went West. No more war for us, they said. Now, these idiots run around insulting everyone with this kind of nonsense. Heritage, yeah right, prove it. I seriously doubt it's your heritage.

Either way, why on earth would someone want to wear something that obviously is hurtful to others around them?

[mondo joe]

103. "Civil War"? Do you mean the "War of Northern Aggression"?

I'm pretty mortified that in the South there seems to be this whole different take that continues to this day.

[noonwitch]

93. I'm with the school on this one

She might as well wear a t-shirt that says "FU, N-----s".

Save the confederate flag for confederate graveyards and civil war memorial reenactments. Or for general mockery by the public. It's a flag I'd burn any day.

[FiveGoodMen]

128. I agree with you.

Even if just ONE of the issues prompting secession was the wish to keep slaves, that's enough reason to NEVER honor that awful part of our past.

Tarting it up with the word heritage is no help at all.

[steve2470]

97. I was born and raised in the South

Things like this make me embarassed. I'm GLAD the North won. Yes, there were good things about the antebellum South, but there were a few good things about Nazi Germany too. The South is a much better place now because the North won.

[mondo joe]

102. There's a funny double standard on DU about flags.

Or at least an inconsistency.

After days and days of posts about Mexican flags arguing "it's celebrating heritage" or "it's just a piece of cloth" or "it's just a symbol", there's this response to the Confederate flag.

Now I want to be clear: I'm NOT SAYING the Mexican flag and the Confederate flag are, or mean, the same thing.

What I am saying is that symbols are powerful and send messages, and I think these threads prove that.

[Bridget Burke]

106. Mexico abolished slavery before we did.

As you said, the Mexican flag & the Battle Flag are not the same thing. I agree with that statement.

I don't think a t-shirt about pinches gabachos should be allowed in school, either.

[XemaSab]

110. Both were countries that were beaten by America

in what is now American territory... :shrug:

[Bridget Burke]

112. And slavery was one reason for Texas "Independence"

Anglo illegal aliens wanted their slaves, but Mexico would not allow them.

Not the only reason. And some Tejanos fought against Santa Ana. Nobody liked him!

[stanwyck]

119. the Confederate Flag is now a symbol

of racism. It's been apprehended by white supremacists. To believe otherwise is to be hopelessly naive.
So. Sure. Wear a Confederate Flag. Fly it from your flagpole. But don't be surprised if people less bigoted don't want you as a friend or won't patronize your business if you display this flag.
It's not illegal.
But it is a strong symbol of intolerance and hate.
That's why there's this response to the Confederate flag.

[mondo joe]

120. Yeah, I got all that. My point is very simply that flags are

potent symbols and their use can send a powerful message.

To pretend otherwise is to live in denial.

[HemiCuda]

134. About 1965

Some students wore black armbands in High School to protest the Vietnam war. It want all the way to the Supreme court. LINK, from ACLU Montana
http://www.aclumontana.org/PubEd/CD/50Cases/Tinker.htm

As far as I'm concerned, she can wear it, legally.

[stanwyck]

149. Legally, yes. But morally?

I give her an "F". The Confederate Flag is a symbol of slavery. Wearing it is offensive. So. Go ahead. Wear it. Offend people. If that's what she wants, she's in for a sad life.
And her parents have no interest in raising a decent person.

[stanwyck]

147. you said you didn't understand

why DUers have such a strong reaction to the Confederate flag issue. Yes, potent symbols. But potent symbols of what? Your ancestry. Or your bigotry. It makes a difference.

[mondo joe]

159. I said I didn't understand? Not that I know of, I didn't.

[slackmaster]

123. Sorry, but you are just plain wrong

Not everyone who wears or displays a Confederate flag is a racist.

[stanwyck]

141. if you wear a symbol

that is so universally associated with white supremacy...what does that make you? A compassionate Confederate? C'mon. It's not about heritage. It's about hate.
The Confederate Flag is no longer a historical symbol. It's been co-opted. It's owned now. By white supremacists.
And people who wear it know that -- even if you don't.

[slackmaster]

146. The "universally associated" part is where you are mistaken

I'd agree the swastika is universally associated with anti-Semitism and other bad qualities of the Nazis, but the Confederate flag in question does not bring up an association with white supremacy for everyone. I personally do not assume that anyone who displays such a flag is a racist or white supremecist.

The Confederate Flag is no longer a historical symbol. It's been co-opted. It's owned now. By white supremacists.
And people who wear it know that -- even if you don't.

You are free to think whatever you want about it. Frankly I think school kids should be able to wear anything they want, or they should all be required to wear uniforms. If a person wants to march around in a Nazi uniform I have no problem with it, because that person will have to deal with the obvious consequences.

Jeez, we're talking about a 15-year-old student in public school. What are the odds she even understands what the Civil War was about?

[stanwyck]

148. I take it you're not from the South

(I'm in Atlanta). Down here, no 15 yr. old is clueless abou the Civil War. And wearing symbols of the Confederacy are meant as symbols of hate. It's an "in your face" to African Americans.
What are the odds she even understands what the Civil War was about....ask her Mom and Dad. My odds are that they've been filling her head with tales of a glorious South that never was for years.
The Confederate flag in Georgia is about white supremacy. Our state flag was changed to include the stars and bars....after the evil federal government made integration law in the early '50's. The historical flag, the one flying during the Civil War, was abandoned for the symbol of the Confederacy. So much for history. That argument is merely a smokescreen.
It was a big, bold message to the Feds and the "darkies".
And it continues today.

[slackmaster]

153. I was married to a Southerner for 10 years

Nice try at a "you have no idea what you're talking about" attack.

Symbols have only the meaning that YOU personally choose to give them. You cannot get inside of that girl's head and gauge what she is actually thinking.

I'm not saying she absolutely is not a racist. I'm saying nobody here knows for sure.

[stanwyck]

157. I know she is

she's wearing a frigging Confederate flag on her clothes in 2006. What do you want? A lynching? How much more clear does she have to be?
Live down here. Wear a Confederate flag in south Atlanta.
Let me know how that works out for you.

[slackmaster]

160. Let's assume she is a big fat racist

Shouldn't she have the freedom to express her views, even if they offend a lot of people?

As I said earlier, kids should either be allowed to wear anything they want, or they should all have to wear uniforms.

[mondo joe]

164. Here's my caveat: schools can have dress codes but they

must be fairly and consistently applied.

If the standard is NO MESSAGE T SHIRTS then it applies to them all. If message t shirts are allowed, they can't say the "Support Our Troops" t shirt is okay but the "No Iraq War" t shirt isn't.

[stanwyck]

167. not anything they want

that's not realistic in an educational environment. You'll get kids who think it's appropriate to wear pornographic T-shirts. Or "God Hates Fags" T-shirts.
But a school should have standards. And people should have standards. It has to do with personal dignity as well as respecting others. And school is also learning about how to be part of society in an effective, productive manner. Growing up means learning what is appropriate. You don't shout down the teacher during math class. You don't punch your teammates in gym. If you do, there are consequences.
This is a school. Not a rave. Different rules. She needs to learn which apply.
Her offensive T-shirt can be worn when she's not at school. She can then proudly show her personal standards. But at school, she needs to realize she's in an educational community.

[mondo joe]

179. There is a somewhat conflicted legal history on this matter.

In 2003 the Eleventh Circuit found that a ban on displaying the flag or symbols could be justified on the ground either that displaying Confederate symbols is potentially disruptive or that the Confederate flag can be perceived as a highly offensive symbol of racism.

But in 2001 the Sixth Circuit ruled that a similar restriction is justified only where there is evidence of prior incidents of racial violence attributable to the display of Confederate symbols in school.

[Le Taz Hot]

172. But of course they are!

Didn't you know advocating free speech, including speech you don't agree with, makes you a racist on this board? :sarcasm:

[Inland]

251. Actually, it's a triple standard. Or maybe no standard at all.

1) I'm a flag waving idiot if I wave an American flag.

2) The Mexican students are expressing admirable ethnic heritage if waving their flag.

3) Flags are just pieces of cloth, what's the big deal?

4) Flags should go away, says one poster with the flag of KY as his avatar.

5) CBF wavers are expressing unadmirable ethnic heritage.

Funny, I THOUGHT that if I were waving the flag of the people that killed the CBF flag bearers, then I too would be expressing an admirable heritage, but no. That honor is again reserved for Mexicans, who, despite maintaining rural peonage, still get more points for eliminating slavery.

Fuck it, I'm changing my avatar to the Cubs symbol, because it's the only one that won't get a PC one-upping.

[Minnesota Libra]

105. If Mexican students can fly their flag she should wear hers. nt

[Bridget Burke]

138. Not at all the same....

If a Mexican kid wore a t-shirt with a comment about pinches gringos, I'd say the administration could disallow it.

[Minnesota Libra]

144. The only difference is...................

.....it's politically correct right now to put down everything but the mexican flag. Next week it will be something else.:rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

150. The only difference is that many view the Battle Flag.....

As a symbol of racism. The chick goes to an integrated school & she knows quite well what she's standing for.

Were Mexican flag t-shirts worn to the schools? Have they caused fights? If so, the school would have the right to ban them.

But the Mexican flag itself is only offensive to ignorant xenophobes. Mexico abolished slavery before the US. Which is one reason the Texians rebelled--they wanted their slaves.

[mondo joe]

166. Is the school now to be the arbiter of what is offensive?

I hope not!

[stanwyck]

168. No way are they the same

The Mexican flag represents ancestry. The Confederate Flag is a blatant racist rag reeking of the Klan.
Not the same.

[mondo joe]

What something represents is in the eye of the beholder.

And certainly the circumstances play a part as well.

The question is who should decide what is offensive, and is offensive expression protected.

[mondo joe]

173. What something represents is in the eye of the beholder.

And certainly the circumstances play a part as well.

The question is who should decide what is offensive, and is offensive expression protected.

[stanwyck]

175. A school gets to say

what is offensive. It's a structure with rules in place. There's a principal, teachers, and students who follow rules. Classes start and stop at designated times. Behavior is monitored.
The student's right to express is protected by our constitutional rights. She can go to the mall wearing whatever she wants.
But, at school, even a public school, she'll have to bend to the structure in place. She's can't wear a halter top. She can't smoke in class. And she can't wear a T-shirt which authority has decided is inappropriate.
Or she can go home and let Mom or Dad teach her or go to a private school which caters to budding racists.
Her choice.

[mondo joe]

176. That's not really true. Students have challenged schools

and have won. Simply being deemed "offensive" by a school is not enough.

[stanwyck]

178. True. And if she feels that

strongly about wearing her precious Confederate T-shirt, then that's what she should do. Use the courts.
Maybe she'll learn something along the way.

[musical_soul]

125. I'm all for freedom of speech....

but as somebody interested in education, I've always taken the concept of the focus being on learning and not on disputes seriously. Something like that might be too disruptive to class depending on the school one is in.

[Charlie Brown]

127. "christians" claim to be offended by gay-straight alliances and pride flag

I'm not comparing those to the dixie cross, but I hear the "offensive" rhetoric cited every time a local gov't tries to silence anything supportive of LGBT rights. I hear the same thing about Wicca symbols (they're "offensive" to x-tians, etc.)

If we want to encourage respect for progressive symbols and gay organizations in public schools, it's probably not wise to strip civil rights away from other students.

[slackmaster]

139. Nobody has a right not to be offended

Or, to live in a world free of things they find offensive.

Being offended is often the result of a choice.

[AllieB]

158. There is a huge difference between those symbols

and the symbol of treason and black enslavement. I wonder how any African-Americans in her school would feel about her Confederate clothes?

[Paladin]

182. We Really Need A "Pointless Civil War Arguments" Forum.....

.....where contentious and ultimately pointless threads like this one can go and die a quick, obscure death. The same function that the DU Gun Dungeon serves regarding firearms topics. How about it, moderators?

[Virginia Dare]

214. Personally, I didn't think it was pointless

and I enjoyed this particular free exchange of ideas.

:shrug:

[Paladin]

219. See How Enjoyable This Kind Of Thread Is To You....

....after you've waded through 50 or 60 of them.

And kindly keep in mind that I'm not advocating the prevention of these discussions here at DU. I just think they ought to have their own forum, where they don't take up Big Forum space. We do it for guns, and we ought to be doing it for people who want to keep fighting the Civil War.....

[allisonthegreat]

188. that's all we need...n/t

[The Straight Story]

196. I hope she wins

Freedom of belief can be a bitch, but I still defend it.

Unless we want to enforce our beliefs on others, ala christians/islam/etc.

People don't have a right to not be offended.

[Catherine Vincent]

197. Let the bitch wear her confederate flag images.

This is a free country.

[6th Borough]

220. Just a guess, but I'm betting it wasn't the CSA flag she wore...

but a Confederate battle flag.

For the "South Shall Rise Again" crowd, I find it a bit interesting :sarcasm: that they always fly the Confederate Battle flag and never the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.

Original CSA flag:

[mitchum]

222. Well, I guess that she does have a constitutional right to be tacky...

but I can't understand why anyone would want to wear that hateful loser rag

[ktlyon]

224. The symbols she wants to wear are not symbols of the Confederacy

they have been taken over by the white supremacists, the anti-civil rights people, the KKK, the segregationists and all the racist that still exists. It is no longer a symbol of heritage but an arrow pointing toward hate.

[NVMojo]

252. ...agreed.

[classysassy]

225. The SLA

I wonder how the blacks in the S.L.A," Shrubs Liberation Army" feel about that little brain dead tramp and her flag?.They are over there liberating the down trodden,while back home children of former slave holders show their colors.

[NoodleyAppendage]

226. And, will they provide medical care for her when she has her ass kicked?

Actions are not without consequence. Let the little nazi wear her racist bullshit outfit, but I don't want to hear about a single tear shed when she gets her ass kicked. I welcome her "learning experience."

J

[Penndems]

234. May I jump into the fray here?

I'm a multi-generation Virginian, five generations in Northern Virginia. After Mr. Penndems and I were married five years ago, I relocated to South Central Pennsylvania, where he'd been transferred to two years earlier. Talk about feeling like a fish out of water! Different culture, different people, different cuisine, different everything.

Anyway, ten months after moving to PA, I went to work as a volunteer on Governor Ed Rendell's campaign in the Harrisburg office. We had a wonderful team which was most helpful in educating me about The Keystone State. One day, during some down time, one of my colleagues and I had a discussion on North/South differences. Here's what I told my Pennsylvania friend about "us Rebs":

1. We're raised to appreciate people, places and things that exhibit traits of grace, charm and beauty. Why? Because they appeal to our sense of refinement and a warm, hospitable lifestyle.

2. There are three reasons why we're taught good manners. The first reason is that it shows respect for the person, particularly the elderly who, by virtue of wisdom and life experiences, are deserving of such treatment. Secondly, we equate the social graces with good breeding and intelligence. Lastly, it derives from The Golden Rule: Do Unto Others What You Would Have Them Do Unto You. If you regard a person with respect, it'll be reciprocated.

3. Adults are addressed as "a lady" or "a gentleman" unless proven otherwise!

4. Regarding our steadfastness on regional pride issues: During the course of the Civil War, there was substantial pillaging on the part of the Union Army. They took cherished family mementos and keepsakes, clothing, livestock, poultry - you name it. The Northern regiments burned down houses and barns. The Army of the Potomac set up encampments which precluded the flow of medicines and food into the Southern states. As a result of all this, people literally starved. Death and disease were rampant. There was no viable form of currency to purchase necessities, because the Confederate dollar was worthless. Needless to say, with shortages everywhere in the South, there was skyrocketing inflation and a brisk business in blockade running.

With the war over, and the onset of Reconstruction, President Andrew Johnson appointed Governor-Generals in the Union Army to recreate state governments, oversee rebuilding efforts, and administer social programs. There were thousands of homeless, hungry and sick people, not to mention widows who lost their sole means of support. From their vantage point, preferential treatment by the conquering forces was being given to freed slaves, particularly with the creation of the Freedmen’s Bureau. White Southerners were ridiculed by the governing forces as "traitors", "rotten Rebels" and "dumb hicks". Now, when you take the sum total of all of these factors - poverty, homelessness, an occupying army that despises and sufficates you, perceived favorable handling of one race over another, what have you got? A festering witches' brew of detestation of the North that began to channel itself into hate groups and eventually, Republican political domination. Because South Carolina and Georgia suffered the most devastating and damaging effects of the war, the feelings there are much more acute and pronounced.

Every Southern family has stories from the war that have been passed down from generation to generation, including mine!
************************************************************************
On topic: Is the Confederate flag – the “Stainless” - a symbol of racism? Yes, but it didn’t start out that way. Initially, it was the Second Flag of the Confederacy, and was carried into battle by Southern soldiers as a defense against fatalities from friendly fire like the ones suffered at the Battle of First Manassas (known as “Bull Run” outside the South). In the fog of war, neither side could distinguish its own troops. You know the rest of the story – with the emergence of radical hate groups such as the KKK (comprised of former Confederate Army soldiers) in 1866, the Second Flag of the Confederacy morphed into a symbol of white supremacy and tyranny against black Southerners.

Should this young woman wear her tee shirt to school? No, because a school is a municipal building, paid for with the taxes of South Carolinians of all races. What she wears in her own home, however, is her business.

BTW – my hubby, who’s a student of Civil War history, attended a Civil War memorabilia show last Sunday outside Frederickburg, Virginia. He purchased a few items from a vendor who was African-American.

And wearing a Confederate flag tee shirt.





(edited for additional text)

[Paladin]

235. Just Wondering

How much time do you spend, fretting over these old circumstances? How ever much it is, it's time that can't be reclaimed for present-day problem solving. I say that as someone who has lived his entire life in a former Confederate state, and who grew up with a full compliment of Daughters of the Confederacy horror stories (courtesy of several aunts). At some point, I found it best to let it go.

That having been said, I agree with your position on the young lady and her T-shirt.....

[Penndems]

236. I fret none, Sir . . .

It's important, though, for those outside the South to understand the reasoning behind the mentality they're dealing with.

The war ended 141 years ago. There's nothing I can do to go back and change what happened. However, I can (and HAVE) done things in my lifetime to ensure something like it doesn't happen ever again in this country.

:hi:

[Paladin]

237. Glad To Hear It

n/t

[Penndems]

238. . . . However, I DID find Northern Republicans in South Central

Pennsylvania who are indeed still "fretting". ;)

Like the lady who did our home inspection before we moved back to Virginia. She asked me how long my family had lived here. When I replied "since 1719", she screamed at me "a true Confederate!" (I'm not kidding here.)

Or, during a local town Civil War reenactment, when a young woman yelled, "Get out of here, you Rebel trash!"

Or the elderly gentleman who once asked me, "I'm a decendant of Willliam Tecumseh Sherman. I guess if I went into the deep South and mentioned that, it'd be a problem." (Um, yeah:eyes:)

Or, in looking to the immediate, you can go back and re-read some of the messages on this board.

I'll end this post on a bright note, however: As I stated earlier, when I moved to Pennsylvania, I didn't know anyone. About a week later, my neighbor across the street came over and knocked on my door. She introduced herself, and I invited her in. We had a cup of coffee and, lo and behold, she presented me with a wedding gift: A collectable crystal plate, hand-painted with a bride and groom, with our names and wedding date noted on the lower right-hand side of the plate. Here was this lady, who was a complete stranger to me, and she did this out of the kindness of her heart - and I'll never forget it.

For every thoughtless idiot, there's a decent, intelligent human being. :)

[ShortnFiery]

243. They (The Confederate Army) LOST the war ... get over it!

To fly that LOSER flag, now having undertones of racism would be downright Un-American.

You lost Confederate "hanger-oners" - now don't you go now and be TREASONOUS by flying your loser flag. ;)

On edit: Tongue in cheek!

Let her wear the loser flag - it's still a Free Country - last I checked. :hi:

[baldguy]

244. Every symbol of the Confederacy is Anti-American.

Trying cast Confederates as romantic heroes rather than pathetic losers is historical revisionism at its worst.

[ButterflyBlood]

246. Great move, fuck the Confederacy

We should've also torn down all their monuments, and destroyed the war cemetaries. Fuck anyone who fought for worthless pile of shit. And fuck their flag.

[bdot]

247. Given the way black people here in NC wear racist stuff to school,

she should be allowed to wear the Confederate flag on her clothes if she wants.
They did this crap when I was in school. They told a group of white students they couldn't wear the confederate flag but then allowed the black students to continue wearing clothing with racist slurs and such. Ended up almost getting a lot of people killed in a near riot.

Luckily I hung out with the smart kids. We knew how to avoid all that stuff by taking college type courses at the other school part of the day. :)

[Blue_Tires]

248. what 'racist' stuff is that, i wonder?