Exodus of 'values voters'?

[derby378]

In the political culture wars, religious conservatives say they've been electing candidates but not getting the results they want. And leaders worry that they might be about to lose Christian conservatives as a potent political force because of unmet expectations on a host of issues and stumbles by a Republican administration they helped elect.

...

"The nation isn't focused today in a way it was on such issues as abortion, marriage, the nature of the family," said the Rev. Laurence White of Houston. "For us, it's not the economy, stupid. It's the morality, stupid."

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, an East Texas evangelist whose group Vision America sponsored a two-day conference aimed at getting Christian activists involved in the 2006 elections, says he hopes to mobilize groups representing 20 million people. To motivate them, he offers a list of 10 grievances and a program to register voters and press candidates to pass specific legislation.

"We're tired of talk. We want action," he said. "It occurs to us that no matter who is in the White House or who says what we want to hear, nothing ever changes."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-culturewars_02tex.ART0.State.Edition2.3cd4c85.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. LEt them stay home!

[ck4829]

2. They are concerned about morality

Yet they support people like Tom DeLay and George W. Bush?

:crazy:

[havocmom]

3. Glad to see the xian RW are seeing they have been aiding & abetting

a bunch of manipulative crooks and aren't getting their theocracy like they thought. See, guys, theocracies aren't good for unbridled capitalism either so you got tossed as soon as you served the propose of giving the neocons enough cover to make stolen election results seem plausible.

You all been fucked big time and it is time to wake up about it. We all have a common problem, and it is NOT religion and values.

Now, join us in the attempt to restore America, but check your own delusions about dominance at the door.

[xchrom]

12. you will never want the america they want havocmom.

while you are both members of the human species -- things begin to break down quickly after that.

you for the better -- them? not so much.

[havocmom]

16. ::chuckle:: no kidding!

But I love the fact that some of them are waking up knowing they have been used. We might just make a few converts to liberty from the disillusioned masses of them floundering about.

Plus, that is le$$ for the GOP ;)

[calimary]

26. I doubt we'll make any converts. They hate us for our freedoms (choice).

Most of 'em will NEVER come over to our side as long as we believe in not judging (or persecuting) someone based on their personal, private sexual preference, or a woman's right to have the last word over what happens to her own body. They're just not gonna come over for that. They think we're homo-lovers and baby-killers and that will ALWAYS keep them away. I think it'd be more shrewd in the long run to encourage their discontent, because the gop hierarchy knows THAT is the carrot they've been dangling in front of these people all this time - but you better believe they realize that if they cancel Roe v Wade and give these people what they want, they'll say "Thanks a bunch! I've got mine! Buh-BYE! And Praise the Lord." Once those hot-button morality issues are resolved to the satisfaction of these people, they'll have little else to focus on but other more general stuff that the rest of us are focused on, and they're likely not to be as obsessively republi-CON. These religious wackos are using the gop every bit as much as the gop has used them. Now, they're finding that it's not really "fair and balanced" here. One user is getting all (the gop gets votes and election wins and power) and the wackos get little but lip service and lots of nice high-and-mighty promises that aren't kept.

I suspect in the near future, if this condition stays as it is, and the wackos keep feeling like they're being played with and getting no results, they may split off and form their own party. And with about 35 percent of the population, they'll doom both themselves AND the gop to minority status for a long time to come.

Which would be MORE than okay by me! Minority status is what they deserve.

[Ian David]

4. Churches are failing to keep their own parishoners moral...

and they want the government to do their job for them through legislation?

[xchrom]

13. they're not concerned with their parishoners morality.

it's your's they want to crush under heel.

[Ian David]

14. Well, that's not really fair, is it? n/t

[xchrom]

15. lol -- ok we could this for a really, really long time.

oh god -- i can't stop chuckling.

that was good.

[jwirr]

17. Tried that once in the prohibition!! All it did was develop

another business for the criminals.

[jamesinca]

28. You can not legislate morality

It has been against the law to kill in this country for a very long time, and the death penalty has not stopped it from happening. The rate of abortion, measured as a per capita, has not appreciable changed since the passing of Roe v. Wade. It happened before and after the ruling. Prohibition did not work, it was such a failure that it was repealed. The list goes on, but the churches who are pushing this just don't seem to understand that you can't legislate morality. How many sinners live in a theocracy? Even going to that extreme of a governmental form does not change peoples morality. The ignorance of those facts by church leaders is just numbing.

[UpInArms]

5. these "values voters" are merely tools to be exploited by the cons

and I do mean "cons" as in CON-ARTISTS - the freaks that play their stupid shell game - the "You want to outlaw abortion? I'll give the rich another tax cut". See the book "What's the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America"

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0805073396&itm=1

What's the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America
FROM THE PUBLISHER
With his acclaimed wit and acuity, Thomas Frank turns his eye on what he calls the "thirty-year backlash"--the populist revolt against a supposedly liberal establishment. The high point of that backlash is the Republican Party's success in building the most unnatural of alliances: between blue-collar Midwesterners and Wall Street business interests, workers and bosses, populists and right-wingers.

In asking "what 's the matter with Kansas?"--how a place famous for its radicalism became one of the most conservative states in the union--Frank, a native Kansan and onetime Republican, seeks to answer some broader American riddles: Why do so many of us vote against our economic interests? Where's the outrage at corporate manipulators? And whatever happened to middle-American progressivism? The questions are urgent as well as provocative. Frank answers them by examining pop conservatism--the bestsellers, the radio talk shows, the vicious political combat--and showing how our long culture wars have left us with an electorate far more concerned with their leaders' "values" and down-home qualities than with their stands on hard questions of policy.

A brilliant analysis--and funny to boot--What's the Matter with Kansas? presents a critical assessment of who we are, while telling a remarkable story of how a group of frat boys, lawyers, and CEOs came to convince a nation that they spoke on behalf of the People.

[fshrink]

6. What possibly more do they want?

Stick their nose deeper into people's lives is hardly possible, legally at least (but we know now that legality is purely circumstancial in this country).

[tanyev]

7. Finally figuring out they've been used.

About time!

[PaDem]

8. No quote from Mary Carey?

Figured she'd be on that boat.

[anotherdrew]

9. maybe because you can't legislate morality? n/t

[anotherdrew]

10. God gave us Free-Will, why do right-wing christians want to take it away?

who the hell do these people think they are?

[William Seger]

11. Bend over, "values voters," here it comes again

The "War on Christians" will be hot-button issue this year to con you into voting for the Greedy Oligarchs and Plutocrats.

[jwirr]

18. That and gay rights and illegal immigration.

[CatholicEdHead]

19. So they are bailing on the GOP because the party is not extreme enough

They are seeing just how much of a minority they actually are.

[Radical Activist]

20. Suckers

Maybe some of them will realize that the Republican party is nothing but a tool for millionaires and large corporations.

[lovuian]

21. after 6 years of Republican majority we still have abortion

and nothing is going to change that little fact

So to all the Christian righters ... take a look at what you elected... he had no intention of getting rid of it...

It keeps you voting Republican why take that issue away...

Yes you have been duped and betrayed... :rofl:

[SoCalDem]

25. Dear sweet innocent fundamentalist right wing republicans

I tried to warn them:

My dear Republican friends,

Posted by SoCalDem in Editorials & Other Articles

Sun Aug 15th 2004, 06:52 PM

Updated and reposted , upon request...(updated again to change dead soldier numbers:cry:..)


My dear Republican friends,


So, are you done being "played"??.... Have you "seen the light"??

Right about now, some of you must have noticed that your "boy" is tap dancing as fast as he can, yet he seems to be getting boos instead of rose garlands..

For over 30 years, you have been "played". The people to whom you have trusted your futures, and your children's, have let you down...again..

....These fat-cats at the top of your "party" know full well that some of you don't like "dark people", so they have carefully crafted language that you lap up with a "wink, wink, nod, nod". They have no intention of carrying through with their carefully couched plans to re-segregate and return to the "good ole days" that they pretend to long for.. They like the days NOW.. They are making tons of money by rotating in and out of industry and government.

....The republican-masters at the top of the heap, got that way because THEY control the taxes that they pay. They throw the peons a bone now and then, and let them think that they too are getting a tax break...finally.. But Look at those utility bills, your insurance co-pay, that college tuition bill, the grocery bill...look at the latest rent increase or the increase in property taxes.. That $10 extra every week in your paycheck doesn't BEGIN to cover the increases in the things you pay "hidden" taxes on. Roads are not free, power plants are not free,bridges are not free, city government is not free.. Taxes pay for these things, and when the revenues go down, the COSTS of those public services go UP. It's a fact of life.The extra money you were supposed to have , to help boost the economy, just ends up in another rich man's pocket...along with the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tax cuts HE got.

....They know that some of you are truly religious, so they came up with a "bone" for you all too.. They ooze "faith" from each and every pore when they are talking to you all and asking for votes, but behind closed doors, they continue to cheat on their wives, abuse their kids, and do all the things that they profess to hate. True faith is more than carrying a Bible around, or saying "God Bless Anerica every time a microphone and camera are near. Faith is what you have in your heart, your soul...not what dangles from a shirt sleeve or drips off a lying tongue.


....They know how you all loathe the "welfare queens" ..Ronald Reagan told you all about them.. The ones with the fur coats and Cadillacs, out to collect their food stamps..She was a made up myth.. The real welfare queens are visible when the fat cats look in the mirror. They "rent" public land for pennies to graze their cattle...they take kickback subsidies for their corporations, and then they lay you and your friends off.. They tell you about all the wonderfully diabolical things they have in store for those "damned immigrants" , but they are the ones who offer jobs to them.. Why?? Because they know that the immigrants will be too afraid to dare ask for a raise, or bathrooms or decent wages, or health insurance..These workers get hurt on the job, and then have to go to emergency rooms. which raises the cost for all of us.. The reason they get hurt is because these same fat cats have bribed our legislators to "ease" the safety requirements on the job.. If they end up blind in one eye, it's no biggie to the bosses.. immigrants have TWO eyes..

....These same politicians know that if you ever got some truth , you might see through their lies, so they have made sure that the airwaves are chocked full of people who "sound reasonable", yet seem to always agree with only their ideas.. Didn't it ever strike you as odd, that no matter what time of day you turned on the radio for all those years, you rarely (if ever) heard an opposing opinion? These fat cats at the top, have tons of money, but they still needed to "push your buttons" and "ring your bells" to get you out to vote for them. They had to have a perpetual way to get your attention..and they needed to keep you "upset and angry" enough to turn out on election day.

About those buttons and bells:

....Abortion is always a bell they can ring, and their Pavlovian supporters start salivating. Whether your unknown-to-you neighbor has an abortion, or does not, should be of little consequence to you, but over the years, they and their preacher friends have somehow convinced a lot of you, that by inserting yourselves into the crotches of all women, you are endearing yourselves to God Almighty. Do you really think that you are getting "extra credit" for screeching epithets at women who may be entering a clinic for a pap smear, or that God will praise you for encouraging "physicicide"?
Ask yourselves , truthfully, if you would welcome the child of YOUR 13 year old who was raped..or would you just quietly call a doctor-friend, who would "help" in such a situation?

....Guns are always a fun issue for them too. They know that a lot of their supporters are gun aficionados, so they try to scare you into thinking that the next knock on your door will be Ted Kennedy coming to collect all your guns.. Cars are registered, and yet, unless you miss payments,no one is coming to take your car away from you. In case you haven't noticed, there are democrats who like guns too.

....School vouchers are another interesting wedge issue, since it hits on several of their "issues". "Upper-Crusty" Private schools probably see the government vouchers as valuable as toilet paper for their little scions who attend, but for the storefront Bible oriented schools, these are manna from heaven.Vouchers themselves are not the problem, as much as they are a clever way to funnel public tax money into private enterprises, while weakening the public schools that most people choose for their kids.. This should be an issue for you to be on the "other" side. Taking public money for private use seems like something that fiscal conservatives would be against. Somehow, they have managed to convince a bunch of you that with that $3,000 voucher in your hand, it's "next-stop-Exeter" for little Jim Bob , jr... What that voucher will do for you is allow other fat cats like Bill (the Gambler) Bennett to sell some of his software so he can hit Vegas in style..Neil (Asian girls have sex with him for free) Bush also is into the private school scams, so your vouchers help him pay his alimony and child support.

....School prayer is always good for a few hoots too. Every religious kid on earth has prayed in school, but organized prayer in school (unless it's a religious school) is NOT OK. This does not mean that God has no place in school. God can be in each student's heart and soul. Teacher-led or school sanctioned public prayer is NOT for public school, and deep down you know it. It's an interesting issue to drag out of the closet every election year.

The flip side of "your" issue is this... If Susie Jones can lead the Lord's Prayer, and all are expected to chime in, how will YOUR child feel when Mohamed leads the prayer from the Koran, or a Jewish child leads the prayer, or a Hindu child, or a Sikh child, or a Buddhist child? Will your child behave respectfully, or will they come home and after telling you, will YOU run to complain to the school board?? Like it or not, we ARE a pluralistic society, and the "new people" who have come here with their faith and customs, are allowed to have the same rights as you have.

....What if you found out that the two elderly "sisters" who have lived in your neighborhood for 30 years, are really not sisters? What if they had babysat for your kids, and you had invited them to Thanksgiving Dinner? What if you had liked them for all those years, and THEN you found out that they were gay? Does that make you a bad judge of character? Does that mean that somehow your children will "turn gay" because you found out about them? Will your marriage suddenly crumble to dust because someone you thought was an old maid, turned out to be a lesbian? Will they now expect you to "join them"?? or will they just be what they have always been...your neighbors. Ask yourself about your own children.. What would you really do if your own child was gay? Would you disown a 12 year old who told you he thought he liked boys "in that way"?? Does that make you a bad parent for raising him "wrong"??

....That brings us to the "wacky environmentalists" and their "junk science". Have you ever wondered why so much energy , money and attention is paid to discredit scientists who have spent their lifetimes trying to figure out how to save lives and make our health better? Why WOULD that be?? Hmmmm ..Maybe it's because the tale they are telling us contradicts the corporate masters of your politicians who allow these same companies to pollute your water, air and soil. Is it OK for your baby to get "a little" mercury, arsenic,plutonium, or any other toxins out there?? Do you know what your baby's "upper limit" is regarding tolerance of toxins.?? The "slow" child at 5, may have been poisoned as a baby, and you will NEVER EVER get an answer.. Isn't it better to try whatever it takes, to eliminate ALL toxins from our food chain, and from our air and water?? How is that a BAD thing?? To hear Rush & the gang, one would think that people who legislate for money and corporations who are in it for the money, actually do have your best interests at heart.. Do they?? Is it worth your health or the lives of your children, if they are wrong?? If the environmentalists are wrong, all you get out of it is cleaner air, cleaner water, safer food.. That's a BAD thing??

....Last but not least , we have that "icky" war thing.. I know that most of you wrapped yourselves in the flag-cocoon with him, and probably thought that we did "need" to attack Iraq, but isn't it a shame that nothing has turned out the way he said they would.. Flag worship is NOT the same as Patriotism..True Patriotism is a mature love of country.. Patriots love their country, but they are grown up enough to support their country with full knowledge, that their country can make mistakes. Flag worshippers love their country like a jealous lover, ready always for vengeance and spite.

Soldiers keep dying, and we are no closer to the Iraqi Dream that they told you all about.. You know the one.. The one where they race alongside the Humvee, throwing kisses and flowers.. Here are a few facts.. There never were WMDs..(well there were, but those were the ones that his Daddy gave Saddam, and Clinton destroyed 99% of them, and the rest were rusted pieces of junk).. The only things thrown at the humvees were rocks and bombs.

Bush KNEW there were no WMDs.. He LIED.. You all jumped for joy when Clinton was coerced into a lie about sex, yet can so easily ignore a BIG FAT UGLY LIE that has gotten over 2,000 soldiers, and untold Iraqis killed..Shame on you !..There were ZERO Iraqis on the planes that crashed into our buildings..ZERO..ZERO..

Do you really believe, deep down in your bones, that George W cares one iota about the welfare of the Iraqi people?? Of course he does not. It's about enriching his contractor friends, and his daddy, and of course, himself..when he leaves office. It's about the "Grand Plan"..the one where the US controls the world.. It's almost a James Bond-like fantasy, only it's NOT A MOVIE.. Real people are spilling real blood,thousands of them, and the end game is not one that he could have predicted. He failed to plan for what happens after the tanks, and choppers, and Humvees "won the war"..

The Iraqi people have been a civilization for thousands of years, and they are very capable of handling their own affairs. Lots of people around the world feel that OUR leader is a dangerous man. Should their feelings count for nothing?? If they had the military strength, what would happen if they decided to "remove" our leader? Would you take up arms against them?? Of course you would. This mis-adventure is turning out badly because it was unnecessary from the beginning.He was hell-bent to have his "war", even though he had a perfectly appropriate opportunity many years ago, but was too scared to go. He needed to be the wartime hunky president in a padded flight suit.. It's always about the photo-ops.

....If you sit down and play a game of "pretend" you will see the light.. Here's how you play.. Read any article and every time the word "Bush" appears, substitute "Clinton".. Do a "gut-check"..Tight, uneasy, angry, conflicted?..

You have been "played", but it's not hopeless. Imagine YOUR job out-sourced.. Imagine YOUR insurance gone... Imagine yourself homeless.. Imagine your own child stricken with a preventable cancer.. Imagine your own freedom ...gone.. It's almost there.. But there is still time..

No one is telling you that you MUST vote for Kerry, just that you take the time to think for yourself..analyze what you read.. Read foreign papers.. There is actually "news" in other places, and things that happen here DO affect them too.. They have a stake in what happens here..

It's called empathy.. Look it up.. It's helpful and it really does not cost that much.. The returns far outweigh the cost.

[Blue_Tires]

30. brilliant n/t

[Maat]

33. Ummm ... can I borrow this?

I would really like to send it to a few relatives and acquaintances of mine.

[SoCalDem]

37. Be my guest..

It's from a while back, but things never change with some folks:)

[Maat]

39. Thanks.

And, no, they don't change. They're shameless.

[leesa]

22. These nasty people haven't learned a damned thing.

[BR_Parkway]

23. Good to see this pointed out under the heading Alarm for Sale

Alarm for sale

Attendees were eager to spread the gospel of danger beyond the conference, too, making it a marketplace for books, DVDs, CDs and Web sites.

"I've been traveling the country since my book came out" last April, said Rebecca Hagelin of the Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank. "Here, let me hold it up for you."

The title – Home Invasion: Protecting Your Family in a Culture That's Gone Stark Raving Mad.

Conservative luminary Phyllis Schlafly directed delegates to a table that held order forms for her newly updated paperback on "the tyranny of the judiciary."

"It's a handbook for action," she said.

The history of political activism by religious conservatives has been marked by periods of engagement and withdrawal. Mr. Bush's appeal to evangelicals and gay-marriage initiatives in 2004 were a high-water mark, experts say, and the withdrawal may be beginning.

It's always, always, always about the money. Phucking Pharisees

[DBoon]

24. It's all the fault of the international jewish comspiracy!

quoting:

A declaration by Don Feder of Vision America – "Hollywood likes Islam almost as much as it loathes Christianity" – prompted a delegate to ask why Jewish movie executives would support a religion whose extremists wanted to destroy Israel.

Mr. Feder explained that Hollywood executives are political liberals who do not reflect Judeo-Christian ethics.

"The people in this audience," he said of the largely white, Protestant crowd, "are more Jewish than people like Barbra Streisand, because you embrace Jewish values. She doesn't."

[Kenergy]

27. Jeebus,

," said the Rev. Laurence White of Houston. "For us, it's not the economy, stupid. It's the morality, stupid."

Poverty is immoral, stupid. Stick your phoney morality up your ass.
I'm sick and tired of these CINO's.

[William Seger]

29. For them...

..."morality" only means their own obsession with what other people are doing with their private parts.

[Maat]

34. Can I borrow the term 'Cino?' It's great (n/t).

[Roland99]

31. How about they focus on getting their flock to raise their children

as tolerant members of a global society instead of following draconian views of a book that's largely a work of fiction.



morans.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

32. They should start their own party

Call it the Foulwell party and only vote for their party rep.

[high density]

35. They're awfully greedy

They talk about abortion and gay marriage as if they wake up every morning thinking about it. What these idiots really want is no privacy in this country. Every single one of these "values" that they crave to legislate hinge on violating the privacy of another person that they just happen to dislike for whatever "religious" reason. If my neighbor gets an abortion, it doesn't effect me. If my neighbor has a gay marriage, again, it doesn't effect me. Nobody is being forced into abortions or gay marriages in this country, so if you don't want one, don't have one.

They just got two Supreme Court justices so I dunno where this "talk and no action" BS is coming from. Do we really need the 10 Commandments everywhere? Can't they just keep a wallet version in their pocket if they need to reference them for some reason? Don't they have at least a passing respect for somebody else's religious beliefs?

To be honest this threat to "stay home" doesn't make any sense. Either they will stay home and the Republicans will lose, or they'll go to the polls, vote in the GOP again, and once again they'll generally be ignored for the primary Republican objective of building corporate profits.

[LeftHander]

36. Fundamentalist Christians can never be satisfied...

It is in the nature of their belief and faith that prevents them from ever being satisfied. They firmly believe they are sinners and must repent and believe that others are to be saved. When everyone is saved and they are still going to be sinners. Thus it never ends. They will justify more and more radical thought control and behavioral control measures with yet another bible verse. Anyone who stands against them will be labeled heathens.

There faith requires constant struggle to prove themselves worthy and to be forgiven.

No question about it. The road that extreme fundamentalist Christianity...leads to death...most gruesome and foul in the name of Jesus.

It has happened before...embolism, torture, forced confessions, war, invasion...it is all waiting to happen once the religious wackos get their way. First to go will be rights and civil liberties, then coordinated discrimination against gay people, and people of color then criminalization, then finally death penalties rendered not by the courts but by mobs of zealots....they will have to kill to save souls and their own.

These people are crazy...reality is nothing to them. Life is not the goal. The fantasy of eternal life is. They would do anything given a biblical justification and the insane leaders know they will.

Notice Bush doesn't talk about religious extremists anymore? It made the base nervous because they are religious extremists. These organizations some of them are one tiny step away from creating a new form of terrorist...the most extreme are already making threats. Some already taking action.

When there is a shared belief even the most extreme will gather a following.

[BadGimp]

38. They Got Played, Punked, Took, Bamboozled..

The sooner the True Christians in this country realize the GOP is using them, and break ranks, the sooner they can get back to the business of spreading the word of Jesus.

In the mean time the Fundies are the bitches of the hard core GOP conservatives and economic interest bases inside the GOP back room cabals.

[madmark]

40. These are people using the state to 1) stick their noses

in other people's personal business, or 2) to help them with personal problems they cannot control at the expense of the rest of us. This applies to drugs, gay discrimination, covenant marriages, gambling restrictions, and abortion et al.

Only someone insecure in their religious conviction would feel the need to legislate it. Early Christianity spread on its own despite persecution by the state; that's when its message had its greatest power because it stood on its own independent of, and in many ways feeding off the opposition of, the state. Later on it got coopted by the state and continued to spread but in large part by coercion and force (See Theodosius) mixed with apathy towards the prior failing state religion (emperor worship). Paradise for the people trying to legislate morality is a union of Christ and Ceasar and they work towards that goal everday. Which is ironic given that most of them believe they are rapturing out of here at any moment, which would leave their union of Christ and Ceasar as parting gift for the unsaved left in the world. Its also ironic because a union of Ceasar and Christ puts us back where we were with the state religion of Rome that proved so unsatisfactory and vulnerable to christianity in the first place.