Sinn Fein British agent shot dead

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

Former senior Sinn Fein member Denis Donaldson has been found shot dead in the Irish Republic.

Mr Donaldson is believed to have been living in County Donegal since December when he admitted he had been a paid British agent for 20 years.

He was Sinn Fein's administration chief at Stormont before his 2002 arrest over alleged spying led to its collapse. Charges were dropped last year.

His body was found near the village of Glenties at about 1700 BST.

Mr Donaldson was expelled from Sinn Fein last December.

(...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4877516.stm

(from Dec. 18th) Questions arise from 'Stormontgate'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4539550.stm

[sg_]

1. mutilated

acccording to RTE, some part of his body was mutilated.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0404/donaldsond.html

[DaveinMD]

2. that's a shame

tsk tsk

[happyslug]

3. That is the price of Treason

Whether you support the IRA or oppose the IRA, you must understand ANY group must protect itself from traitors. When it comes to Resistance groups that means death for they have no prisons. In groups that have a place to keep prisoners Prison is by far the better choice, but where in the world can the IRA keep its Prisoners? Britain will free any in Britain or Northern Ireland and the Irish Government will free any held in Ireland. Thus when it comes to punishing traitors the IRA has a choice, leave them go and in affect tell other members of the Organization that there are NO cost to betraying the Group, or execute the Traitor. The IRA decided punishment was needed.

[Stella_Artois]

7. Thats great

I'm glad we have someone here to speak up for terrorists.

[sg_]

9. I try just to ignore it.

But it does get quite annoying when people here openly "support" scum like the IRA, espically when they went around the area where i live; shooting and bombing.

But i shant take this thread off topic, yet. :evilgrin:

[Bridget Burke]

10. I haven't praised the IRA....

And Gerry Adams said the republican movement had nothing to do with the killing.

[sg_]

16. I was just referring to some other posts ive read

espically around the time of St Paddys day, nothing in this thread.

Sorry if you took it the wrong way or if i didnt put my point across well :o

[Bridget Burke]

22. Well, let's not live in the past.

Isn't "Forgive & Forget" an Old Irish saying?

[Dutch]

40. I'm sorry you have to read such crap

I've seen some astonishing, bigoted garbage posted about NI here- people arguing for Ulster to be ethnically cleansed of Unionists, or bragging about donating to NORAID to name just two. Of course there are many reasonable Nationalists and Republicans here as well, but there is a minority who are just mirror images of Ian Paisley- worse in fact, because they're cheering terrorists at work thousands of miles away and as such do not have to suffer the consequences they so gleefully wish on others.

[happyslug]

11. Who said anything about supporting them??????

I am pointing out that ANY RESISTANCE GROUP must maintain discipline AMONG ITS OWN MEMBERS. This man BETRAYED his fellow IRAers. He is NOT some Innocent bystander nor is he even a member of the OPPOSITION to the IRA. HE was a full fledged member of the IRA. HE spied on that membership as a MEMBER of the IRA. Thus when found out he was executed by the IRA. You may disagree with that punishment, but what punishment do you support? Remember we are talking from the point of the IRA NOT your position on what the IRA was. How does a guerrilla group maintain discipline? How does it punish its traitors?

War is never nice, Geronimo regretted to his dying days all the White kids he had to kill when they stumbled on his band. He could not leave them live, for they would tell their parents who would tell the US Army. He could not afford to take them with him for his band was to small. He thus had to kill them. He hated it, but the type of war he was fighting it had to be done. They are whites in the American Southwest who hate Geronimo to this day for his killing of these children, but that does not mean it was NOT military required.

The same with the IRA and this traitor. How does ANY Resistance group maintain discipline? It has to maintain discipline and its members MUST know if they betray the Group they will be punished. At times you have to take drastic actions. In the case of Geronimo his actions were NOT against his own people but civilians of the Group he was fighting. In THIS CASE of the IRA it is against one of its own members. All I am pointing out is the IRA must discipline its own members and remind its own members the price of Treason is going to be high.

[Bridget Burke]

14. We don't even know that the IRA did it.

It could be a splinter group of the IRA.

Or someone from the other side--this is timed to disrupt the revival of the assembly at Stormont.

[happyslug]

33. Again the price of Treason

No one likes a Traitor even if he ends up helping your side. The Classic is Benedict Arnold. His treason was so great that even long after the Revolution the US would have executed him. On the other hand the British found him to be an embarrassment after the Revolution and just ignored him (and his request for an increase in his pension for betraying the US). He was luckily the British did not knock him off just to have one less headache between the Britain and the US during the wars of the French Revolution (Arnold died in 1801).

More on Arnold:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold
http://www.americanrevwar.homestead.com/files/ARNOLD.HTM
http://www.vtgunsmiths.com/gmbsc/benedict.html

Now the timing is questionable. Sooner or later Northern Ireland has to have some sort of local Government. In many ways the British making all the major decisions has permitted both sides to harden their position with minimal political costs. IF the British would just force these people to work together you might finally resolve the situation in Northern Ireland (i.e. permit free elections as is presently permitted but force those who are elected to make the decision on which road gets repaired, how much is spent on police, how much on education and even who gets to march where). Right now these decisions are made in London, thus both sides do not have to talk to each other.

What would I do if I ruled Northern Ireland is first REQUIRE all students to go to what we in the US call Public Schools. These schools must have both Protestant and Catholics. No Private Schools would be permitted for they are the start of the problem. Each side sends their Children to different Schools which teaches them NOT to deal with the other. Now people will worry this will lead to fights in the Schools and I agree, but when they are fighting they are communicating and learning to work with each other. I would punish anyone who was in a Fight, but I would NOT close a School do to fights.

Second I would force all local government to be 50-50 Catholic-Protestant with a requirement that any bill be passed by a 2/3 majority. I would tell the local Government that nothing will be done, no one will be paid, until they vote for it. I would leave the road covered with Snow unless both sides (by the 2/3 vote) vote to raise the money to pay the snow removal crews. Any repair within the local Government will also have to be done by a 2/3 vote (and forbid anyone working on the Public owned property without having the required 2/3 vote). I would even be tempted to extend this to Hospital care, again to force BOTH SIDES to vote for at Least one thing together.

Remember the problem in Northern Ireland is NOT religious but the social divide between two groups (one happens to be Catholic the Other Protestant). These two groups do NOT want to work together. They never had to, ever time the Catholics demanded equal Rights, the Protestant complained to London who reacted by sending in troops rather than address the issue of equal rights.

What the British did do over the last 40 years kept the side apart more than force them to work together (Kill zones around Catholic incaves in Protestant Towns, armed patrols etc). Now most of this ended in the 1980s as the IRA terrorist campaign petered out but the underlaying problems were NOT resolved. You have two groups living side by side who do not talk to each other.

Yes there have been improvement (The old rule for Northern Ireland that a land owner, who typically Protestant had more votes than a tenant who tended to be Catholic has been abolished but that it survived till the last quarter of the 20th Century in what we call the Western World is shocking).

As to the IRA itself, like many long term Guerrilla armies, turned to crime as a way to finance its Armed Struggle. as the Struggle lasted for decades instead of years the IRA was going down the same route as the Sicilian Mafia, i.e. the criminal part of what they were doing was becoming more and more important compared to the Armed Struggle. In the Mafia this switch to a Criminal organization occurred sometime before 1800 (Records are unclear but may even had been more Criminal that resistance by the time of the Crusades). The IRA started to switch in the 1970s and was while in its way by the end of the 1980s. In many way the Peace Agreement was an attempt by the Sinn Finn to stop this switch over. One of the reason for the delay in fully implementing the Switch over is that the IRA members did not want to give up their criminal enterprises (Profits were high).

It is often difficult to know when to quit a Guerrilla war. When von Beck was ordered to Surrendered in 1918 as part of the Armistice after his surrender his officers did NOT like how the British were treated their black enlisted ranks. The Officers approached von Beck to renew the fight. von beck told them no, yes they could break out and continue the fight but for what political aim? The War was over and with it all reason to continue his guerrilla war in East Africa. The IRA faced the same dilemma in the 1990s, the war was over, they could continue to fight but such fighting would NOT help the political struggle. Like von Beck's Officers they were fully capable to continue the fight but it would serve not political purpose, but like von Beck's Officers who were upset by the treatment of their troops who they had fought with for four years, the IRA were upset with the lost of their Criminal enterprises. It took Sinn Finn a long time to convince them to stop both.

Both Sides now know the issue today is NOT the blatant discrimination of the period pre-1970 but getting both the Protestants and Catholics to work together in Northern Ireland. I would work bottom up (i.e. Schools and local Government) but Britain, Sinn Finn and the Protestants want to do this top down starting at the Parliament for Northern Ireland. I think it is a mistake, but not a fatal mistake, but one that has to be given a chance.

[oblivious]

12. Whoa! That was totally unfair and uncalled for.

happyslug was just explaining the rationale that resistance groups use to protect themselves from traitors.

How on earth do you go from that to 'speaking up for terrorists'? Wow!

[Tarc]

15. The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters

is quite malleable, depending on who is in power and can influence the airwaves.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

36. The British are the true terrorists.

They are the ones that started this whole mess. They are the occupiers. If a group occupied America and an American killed one of their members, would you call that American a terrorist?

[ButterflyBlood]

45. The British are not occupying Ireland

There's a country that takes up 5/6 of the island where they have no authority at all. They only are in the 6 counties in the island were the people WANT to remain part of Britain. The people want them there and that's why they hang onto it, not occupation such as in Iraq. And I can't blame them for not wanting to live in a country where girls who were at risk to be "immoral" were kidnapped and sent to do slave labor in laundries and only legalized divorce 10 years ago.

[blackhorse]

47. Yes, the Magdalenes ...

and IIRC, weren't the laundries run with "tender mercy" by fanatical clergy?

This world is sicker than we'll ever know.

BH

[Maeve]

13. It's a bit chancey to assume it was IRA

And there are several arguments against it.
First, they have denied involvment. (I know, I know) Second, they are on stand-down; any action taken would be seen from the outside as proof that they are undisciplined, the opposite of what you are arguing. Third, it would be politically stupid in the extreme, especially after Gerry Adams has made a point of saying that Donaldson was under no republican threat. It would also be proof of criminality, a charge the IRA is trying to shed itself of.

Odds are better that it was 1) a dissident, probably anti-GFA, republican with a hatred for spies (remember he worked for the British for 20 years) or 2) one of his ex-handlers cleaning up loose ends.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

17. Maeve, your second paragraph sums it all up

quite nicely for me. Either #1 or #2 is quite plausible..

[sg_]

18. I agree Maeve

It was most likely IMO, some dissadent republican who was pissed off with what donaldson done.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

19. What about option #2, sg???

What the Brits never kill???

[sg_]

20. Not atall. Im not saying they've never done such things

but it is a more likely case IMHO, that some pissed off republican. Possibily ex ira member(s) wanted to get some revenge on him for his "betrayal".

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

23. Why assume that "some pissed off republican" would do this?

Is it because it happened in Donegal or are the Brits not allowed in Donegal???

[Bridget Burke]

21. Or option #3?

Some dissident Orangeman who wanted to throw a spanner into the revival of the Assembly at Stormont.

[sg_]

24. I seriously doubt it.

Everything bad that happens here isnt always down to the prods, as much as some would like to believe.

[Bridget Burke]

29. I just didn't want to leave anybody out!

In the interest of fairness...

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

25. Thank you Bridget.

But somehow I think that possibility might never occur to this particular poster...

Gee, what is a dissident Orangeman? Possibly someone from the Protestant paramilitary factions???

[sg_]

26. Of course. But its not as likely as the other.

It is hard to say who done it, im only giving my opinion who i believe was most likely to have done it.

If "dissident orangement" wanted to disrupt the peace process, there are plenty of easier ways they can go about it, or maybe its just some big conspiracy.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

28. Pray tell, what would be the "plenty of easier ways

they can go about it"???

Would it include maybe harrassing children on the way to school in North Belfast or maybe walking into a pub in Loughinisland, Co. Down and mowing down the patrons at the bar that were watching the World Cup in 1994?

[sg_]

30. They could harrass/intimidate/riot etc..

not to mention pressurise certian political groups not to talk to the shinners.

Your bound to know the way the harrasment/intimidation/shooting things go-about, its just like the IRA/republican groups have done for years here aswell.

Just out of curiosity, are you actually from (N).Ireland or is all your bitterness second or third hand?.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

31. My husband was born and raised in the Six Counties,

and came to Chicago at the age of 28.

As for myself, on many trips back to visit family and friends I've seen with my own eyes what you refer to as "bitterness", so to make it clear it's first hand knowledge...

[ButterflyBlood]

35. This man was not a traitor

He was a British patriot. Protecting the country from the real traitors, the IRA scumbags who engaged in a murderous campaign of killing against their own citizens to break Northern Ireland away against the will of the majority of the population to join a repressive papal state.

And yes, I know Protestant paramilitary groups did killing too. But the IRA started the whole conflict in trying to force Northern Ireland under the extremely repressive yoke of the Catholic Church. Fuck the Pope.

[Bridget Burke]

38. Then--why did this British patriot choose to live in Donegal?

It's part of that Pope-ridden Republic, you know.

The Troubles in Northern Ireland started when Catholics began protesting to gain Civil Rights. The hard-core Unionists fought back. The IRA originally stepped in to protect the Catholics. As things escalated the IRA turned to violence & terrorism--of which I do NOT approve.

[happyslug]

41. So a person who joined the IRA and Betrays the IRA is what?

A person who betrays his comrades in arms meets the definition of Treason. Yes, he is NOT a traitor to Britain but he did NOT join the British Army, he joined the IRA. I do not know if he joined the IRA before or after he was on the pay of the British, but he sworn allegiance to the IRA NOT to Britain. He just took money from Britain. Thus he is a Traitor to the IRA which is all I am saying.

[name not needed]

42. Dr. Paisley, is that you?

[Henny Penny]

43. lol...

Certainly not! Dr P would never use the F word!

Ian junior....is that you???

[ButterflyBlood]

46. Paisley is a lunatic

I depsise the man, but that does not change the fact that the majority of people in Northern Ireland agree with his position. They want to remain part of the UK.

And considering how much influence the extremely reactionary Catholic church with their new Nazi Pope has over the Republic of Ireland and their disgusting treatment of women in the past and still today (they've had the same Rapists Reproduction Rights law South Dakota passed for years), I would have to say I'd agree with them if I lived there. I mostly certainly would not vote for Paisley's party, but I would definately oppose any efforts to integrate the North with the Republic. Especially efforts through terrorism.

[bettyellen]

44. he's a spy who shows once again, the brits will always play dirty

same as how protestant paramilitary groups were always assisted by the RUC, the fucking police were rife with filthy orange terrorists.
thank god the papists are rapidly outbreeding the scum planters up in ulster.

[sg_]

52. good to know that we are loved up here

.

[Dutch]

39. How easy it is to dismiss murder with a snarky remark

When you're sitting thousands of miles away in the comfort of Maryland. Contemptible, but easy.

[Vidar]

4. Had it coming.

[Bridget Burke]

5. The timing of his death is "interesting"....

From the article:

The death of Mr Donaldson came hours before a planned visit to Northern Ireland by Prime Minister Tony Blair and Mr Ahern to unveil their blueprint for reviving the assembly at Stormont.....

Gerry Adams told the same news conference that Mr Donaldson was not under any threat from the republican movement.... He said he was not prepared to speculate on who might have been responsible. ... "It has to be condemned. We are living in a different era, and in the future in which everyone could share," he said. "This killing seems to have been carried out by those who have not accepted that."

DUP leader Ian Paisley said Mr Donaldson's death would be a setback for the political process. "If this man has been murdered because of his connection with the IRA/Sinn Fein, and because of the past happenings, then it strikes a blow at what the two governments are trying to do," he said.

It is understandable that the departed would have enemies. But Gerry Adams & Ian FUCKING Paisley seem to agree that the murder is meant to send a political message.

[brook]

6. Paisley

would hardly miss the opportunity to bolllocks any talk of Peace. Right there with the mutilation "facts" the bastard was...stirring the pot.

[OKthatsIT]

8. Its not over....we all know it. The Protestants havent learned anything

SAS snipers killed IRA members on the streets during 'cease fires'. So, both sides are lucky that both sides give each other any hope at all.

[Henny Penny]

27. The timing is interesting...

also it should be noted that he will never be able to tell us just why he got the Assembly shut down... and he cannot expose either accidentally or deliberately any other "assets" within SF.

I think he was set up by his handlers to ensure his silence. And if they could I'm sure they'd like to get a double whammy by tipping the nod to some former or current IRA member that Donaldson was the one that got him put away for so long, or that set up a friend or relative for assassination. They could then release the evidence and throw yet another spanner in the peace process...

There are many ways to skin a cat...

I tend towards the set up by his handlers pov after watching the bbc 10.00 news tonight... and the fact that the British didn't set him up in a new life some where. He was living in Donegal which suggests to me that ultimately it was not the Republicans that he feared.

Now why don't they want that assembly up and running?????

:think:

[brook]

32. I found some interesting....

speculations at sluggerotoole's blog.

I have this habit - when something catches my curiosity - I go looking for the 'local's take' on things.
There's a lively exchange going on over there.

[Henny Penny]

37. ahhhhh what is real and what is not in the world of spies...

Just looked at one of sluggers links to someone suggesting that he wasn't killed but has been whisked off to a new life after all...

Well, these days anything is possible...

[brook]

49. going through

some links and comments at sluggers this morning, I came across this beaut: "If there was oil under Belfast, we could have the Americans to sort it out."

I don't endorse violence nor do I have the necessary knowledge to dare to offer a definitive declaration of wrongs vs right in Ireland's affairs - but I wish that those who are being so insulting to Catholicism would take the time to review how Catholics were treated by their countrymen and occupiers in the 1700, 1800 and 1900's. My great-great grandparents on one side fled the famine. On the other side, my grandparents fled the troubles and the poverty of the countryside. My family rarely spoke of the past- and never with hatred. With great sadness, yes. I hope the day will come when the past will be let go.

[phoebe]

51. exactly..something very fishy is going on here..

maybe he was the asset of a third party?

[CONN]

34. Agree... and would not be in the Republicans' interest...

Since Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA seem to be trying to make things work politically.

[Stockholm]

48. I guess being under Gerry Adams protection

means very little in the circles that do not want peace...

[phoebe]

50. supposedly he gained access to transcripts of meetings between * and Blair

according to this article

http://www.fox23news.com/news/world/story.aspx?content_id=8b2ed2c7-c5b4-4413-b648-b867d43d61b5&rss=42.

snip

Police charged Donaldson, his son-in-law and a British civil servant with pilfering piles of British documents and records that included transcripts of confidential discussions between British Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush; negotiating papers of Sinn Fein's political rivals; and the personal details of more than 1,000 potential IRA targets, including police and British army officers and prison guards.

Police said most documents were found in a backpack in the west Belfast home of Donaldson, who served several years in prison for plotting to bomb British government buildings in 1971, then was detained in 1981 by French police while traveling on a false passport from Lebanon.

On Dec. 8, Northern Ireland was stunned when prosecutors dropped all charges against the three men, obscurely citing "the public interest" and refusing to explain further.

Protestant leaders accused Britain of cutting a secret deal with Sinn Fein to remove a potential obstacle to resumed power-sharing. They said such duplicity demonstrated why they would not cooperate until the IRA disbanded, something the underground group refuses to do despite handing its weapons stockpiles to disarmament chiefs in September.

A week later, people got an even bigger shock. Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams announced that Donaldson - a veteran diplomat for Irish republican efforts ranging from Libya to the United States - had confessed to Sinn Fein officials he was on the British informer payroll.

Within hours, Donaldson made a surprise appearance on Irish state television to confirm this. Mirroring the Sinn Fein line, he accused Britain of concocting the spying scandal.


Entire article makes very interesting reading because it is meant to be confusing to the reader..

Why go to Glenties in Northern Ireland if he was a British spy? That is the last place he would have gone after being outed by Sinn Fein..it doesn't make sense..and if, as he claims, the British were making it up, he still wouldn't have gone there..

Something stinks -