Premature babies 'feel true pain'

[seriousstan]

Premature babies experience feelings of pain rather than simply displaying reflex reactions, a study says.

Experts have never been sure how a premature baby responds to pain, the Journal of Neuroscience reported.

But a team from University College London found that they do feel pain after analysing brain scans taken when blood samples were being drawn.

They hope the findings will lead to more formal plans for managing pain in premature babies.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4875196.stm

[Richard D]

1. This has to get the . . .

. . . "well duh you stupid fucks" award of the century. It has always astounded me the level of cruelty that doctors especially put new borns through just because they thought that they couldn't feel the pain.

[LeftyMom]

14. I had unaenestetized surgery as a newborn

It took three orderlies, my mother and grandmother to hold me- a sick 7 lb baby- down. That should have told the stupid fucking doctor that newborns feel pain.

[Dora]

24. Oh, you poor baby.

It's late now, but ohhhh, that makes my eyes fill for you. I'm so sorry that happened to you. :hug:

[LeftyMom]

30. At least it was something fast

A correction for a minor birth defect, although I have heard that even major surgeries were frequently performed on infants without drugs until the 70s and 80s. That scares the hell out of me.

[susanna]

46. You and me both, brother. n/t

[AlienGirl]

2. Well, DUH

People seem to want to assume a lack of actual pain whenever possible. Not long ago, major surgery was routinely done on newborns without anesthetic because it was believed they couldn't feel pain yet and were just screaming as a reflex. In my opinion, it's always more ethical to assume a living thing can feel pain and take steps to alleviate it--better to use some anesthetic unnecessarily than not use it when it should have been used.

Tucker

[Lance_Boyle]

11. anaethesia in neonates is dangerous, and proper dosing information

is seriously lacking. Just as children are not "just small adults" in terms of drugs dosing, neonates are not "just extremely small children."

It is certainly *not* better to use these drugs unnecessarily.

[novalib]

22. Fetuses Are Not "Living Things"

Would you administer anasthesia to a liver?

[WindRavenX]

25. where did that post refer to a fetus?

She was referring to premies, who are developed enough to feel pain.

Fetuses up to...I want to say 24 weeks can't feel pain. Which makes those anti-choice nutjobs requiring anesthesia before early trimester abortions completely nutters.

[novalib]

29. My Bad!

Sorry!

[kestrel91316]

38. Preemies have been BORN and are therefore NOT FETUSES.

Furthermore, fetuses ARE living things. They just don't have rights superior to those of the woman bearing them, which I suspect is what you are really getting at.

[susanna]

47. Who is talking about fetuses?

Premature infants are a different category, in case you were not aware...

[TalkingDog]

3. Maybe they'll finally outlaw circumcision.

Urg...Talk about sadistic. No wonder half the men in this country are so sexually f*cked up. First they arouse the baby to make it easier to cut and then once he's stimulated, they cut off part of his anatomy.

Pleasure = Pain and so Pain = Pleasure

Now imprinted as one of the first memories/awarenesses a boy-child has.

[noonwitch]

5. I've always thought it was cruel not to use anesthesia for that

I'm not going to get into the whole issue of whether circumcision should be done, but if done, the baby should be given some type of anesthesia, whether local or general.

You have a point about early memories-even if people don't have memories of their infancy, they are still affected by traumas that occur in that time.

I actually have a better memory than most people, of their childhoods. I can't remember anything before age 2, and all memories from 2-4 are either fragments or of a serious trauma (a housefire at 2 is my earliest memory, coupled with going to live with Grandma while our house got repaired). I doubt a kid would remember a circumcision done a week after birth, but who knows?

[seleff]

50. The physician tried to use local when my son was circumcized

It seemed to me that routine was to try to use local anesthetic. In my son's case, she kept hitting a vein which would be contra-indicated so the procedure was done without the injection of local anesthetic. He screamed for 10-15 seconds and I assumed that there was pain. I didn't notice any discomfort on his part in the day after the procedure, but who knows.

[hedgehog]

6. By that reasoning, a majority of women should also be sexuallly confused

Tearing of the hymen does involve some pain and usually is much more memorable! I seriously doubt that infant circumcision is as traumatic an event as you would suggest. I would put it in the same category as infant blood draws and infant immunizations myself, not to mention infant reflux. Try comforting a screaming six week old with colic and then we'll discuss the relative trauma of these events.

[CornField]

10. I've never heard of a man being circumsized by horseback riding

It is a known fact, however, that women can rupture their hymen in a wide variety of ways.

If you seriously doubt circumcision is a traumatic event, I suggest you attend one (if you can stomach it) or visit the hospital rooms with the little infant forms stained with iodine. Further, I would also suggest you offer to care for a newborn circumsized boy who screams each and every time he urinates.

The ironic part is, I bet you have little problem finding fault with those who perform the female version.

[Dora]

27. You know, not everyone's experience is as you describe.

Our son was circumcised; anesthesia was used, my husband was at our son's side through the entire procedure, there were no straps, there was no screaming (not even a whimper from our son), and our son certainly did not scream each and every time he urinated post-circumcision.

You do not serve your cause well by exaggerating or using inflammatory rhetoric. Circumcision is a choice that all families are faced with, and the medical establishment can and should do much to make circumcison as free from trauma and pain as is medically possible. They are making strides in this regard, including a growing and vocal consensus that circumcision is optional, and not medically necessary.

Educating people is not the same as terrifying them with falsehoods.

[CornField]

33. It wasn't a personal affront to your choice

Although, it seems, many parents who have opted for genital surgery often take such offense. I'm truly happy you don't believe your son suffered.

But, back to the topic to which I was posting in response: You said your son had anesthesia for the procedure. Did you also require anesthesia when your hymen tore?

[Dora]

42. Oh, no affront.

I simply saw a teachable moment, and chose to speak. Do as you will.

[superconnected]

32. I've known two men who got circumcision as adults

both told me it was the most painful thing they ever felt. Both wished it had when they were babies.

I don't doubt that it's a terrible pain for infants or anyone.

I would hope there is some pretty hard anestesia(sp?), or they just don't do it.

If I had a son, I would have him circumsized though. It's a preference. I just never liked it when guys weren't, and I've had friends that also tell me they don't like getting uncircumsized guys. Oh, the two guys who did get it as adults, were my boyfriends at the time they had it. It was their decisions though. Both had the problems of not being able to open their skin flaps enough because they weren't doing it as children. Both were virgens - into their 30's, because of this and until they had the cirumcisions. Sex was too painful and would tear them, since they weren't dealing with the flap right by I guess, pulling it back. And no, I didn't sleep with either, even after.

I broke up with them shortly after their surgerys for different reasons, bitch that I am. Or was it because they had to many self-depreciating ways that they attributed to things like not having sex yet. Confidence is the most attractive feature I've ever seen in a man. Those two just didn't have it.

I suppose the person getting circumsized should be the one to make the decision, but really, how many guys have I heard say they regret having the procedure done. none. I don't doubt someone would, I've just never heard a complaint about having had it as an infant.

[The Flaming Red Head]

52. I didn't have $ 90 dollars to have my son circumcised

and I still feel guilty, but he's 18 now and he told me that he's glad he didn't have it done. I was told at the time that it led to less problems later in life.

[GinaMaria]

13. As a nursing student

I observed a circ. in the nursery. The screaming was horrific. The baby passed out before it was done. No anesthesia or pain medication used. I assumed he passed out from the pain. Horrible. Witnessed something similar in OB with a c sec. Doc didn't want to wait until anesthesia kicked in.

10 years ago when I worked in peds, the latest research was that kids' pain was undermanaged. It was a serious issue then. Apparently it still is. It's a very old way of thinking that because the sheath around the nerve endings isn't fully developed that pain messages do not reach the brain. I didn't think most people believed this still. Shocking.

As for tearing of the hymen... That occurs when a girl/woman is older. It doesn't require frequent dressing changes, risk infection, or make anyone scream when they urinate.

A six week old with colic... I feel for you. It can be so distressing to hear your child wail like that. Hope that's well behind you.

[Sirveri]

17. I disagree with your comparisons.

blood draws and immunizations are needle pricks, Colic is best classified as 'highly annoying' none of those are genital surgery involving knifes and tissue excision without the benefit of anesthesia(not used in the majority of instances circa 1998(source below)). That and there was a study done, multiple studies on the subject of pain actually, that shows that there are long term effects noticable up to six months out and that newborns do in fact feel pain. http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/
The link above explains it all much better than I ever could and gives numerous source referances in hypertext.

[TalkingDog]

21. Lets test it out.: Find a willing virgin, have her tear her hymen, then

we'll slice off part of her clitoris without anesthesia.

You have GOT to be joking....

And yes, crampy colicky babies are in pain for a long period of time. But at least you are trying to lessen her pain instead of inflicting it needlessly.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. If I could go back and do one thing differently

I'd tell my husband to go fuck himself when he said the boys should be circumcised.

[Andromeda]

4. But of course they do!

I never had any doubt, but then medical science had to catch up to the rest of us.

[hedgehog]

31. Based on personal observation

My sons never reacted to being circumcised in as dramatic a way as described above, which makes me wonder if some hospitals uses different techniques.

When my children had colic, they were in serious pain, especially my youngest daughter.

Female circumcision is not the same thing as male circumcision,does not have the same consequences, is not done for the same reasons and should not be compared,

[Sinti]

7. It's messed up that they had to analyze brain scans and such

to realize this. If you were in a premature infant's position -- under-developed lungs and other organs, needles and tubes going this way and that, fighting to maintain your earthly position -- it goes without saying you're in pain.

[Zynx]

12. Let's put it this way: It's a good thing you can't remember that stuff.

I can't imagine the nightmares we'd have.

[Sirveri]

8. I'm waiting for the pro-lifers to jump on this.

Well premies feel pain, so so do fetuses, so that means they're put through a horrible tortuous death when you abort any fetus no matter how far along it is... I'm waiting for it, I'm waiting for them to sieze on this.

[Roaming]

9. Seize on it? Whether or not they do or do not, what if a fetus

CAN feel pain during an abortion? What then?

[Bridget Burke]

16. They've already siezed on it.

No late term abortions are done for frivolous reasons. So use anesthesia.

[Sirveri]

18. Does it really matter?

I don't want to get into abortion here, but the end result of a successful abortion procedure does not result in an individual who has altered neurochemistry due to excessive pain during the neonatal period. So the end result is, who cares, it doesn't negativly impact society if we happen to cause a fetus pain during an abortion.

[Roaming]

26. Well, it matters to the fetus itself, if indeed it does feel pain...

[superconnected]

34. In Silent scream, they can feel pain during the abortion.

But I'm still against forcing women to see that movie before abortions, as still, 20+ years later anti-abortion groups try to legally force women to watch it.

It would be better if they could inject some pain relievers or maybe find les brutal ways. Not that I'm up on the ways they are preforming them now a days. They used to very malicious to the fetus though. Hopefully it's better now.

I am pro-abortion btw.

[kestrel91316]

39. Reflexive movement can occur without conscious perception of

pain. Neurology 101.

Reflexive responses to stimuli only require an intact neural connection from the site to the spinal cord and back - no brain function necessary. Reflexes can and do occur in the presence of a severed spinal cord where there is no physical possibility of pain perception. So movement of that fetus in that movie does not equal pain.

[susanna]

48. I am so glad that you are pro-abortion...how cool is that?! n/t

:sarcasm:

[superconnected]

51. If you had followed feminism

you would know the difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion.

Many women who are anti-abortion are still supporters of womens rights to choose.

The feminist brought them on board by marketing it as being pro-choice without having to be pro-abortion.

It is very cool, for this feminist.

I only wish other women would spend time reading feminist books and frequenting sites on feminist issues.

[GinaMaria]

15. birth is also painful for the baby.

Most people don't talk about birth pain from that point of view, but think about the process from the baby's end of things. No wonder why some don't seem to want to come out.

[Sirveri]

19. I trust mother nature a bit more than that.

One would assume that over our evolution the design for life birth, while possibly being painful, would not be so painful as to cause any noticeable or signifigant long term effects that would detract from our ability to survive.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Mother Nature sometimes needs a bit of help.

Most ladies who have given birth were glad for some assistance. Whether high-tech procedures for high-risk pregnancies or good midwives--the old "giving birth in the field & getting back to work" just does NOT cut it.

[Sirveri]

23. I agree.

The speculation was on birth pain and it's effects on the neonate. Not on the mother. Depending on how long the placenta takes to absorb anesthesia, it's quite possible that the baby itself could be anesthetised during a modern birth. The end result is that we don't know, but that I would speculate that evolution would not allow it to be so traumatic FOR THE NEONATE, that it caused long term trauma.

[fleabert]

28. I have seen video from a study done of unmedicated birth

and infants in those births literally could 'scoot' across the mother's belly to the nipple for their first meal, minutes after birth, with little to no help from mother. Found the nipple and latched themselves.

Medicated births- nada. disinterested and lethargic compared to unmedicated. It is certain that even low dose epidurals cross the placenta, not to mention narcotics.

[GinaMaria]

36. I never took the stand that birth pain

detracted from our ability to survive. Simply commenting on the post about the potential anti choice argument.

Birth pain exists for the mother. Not everyone has considered the baby's point of view during birth. There are many who believe this will be the next evolution in OB L and D.

[benddem]

37. Strange

nurses have been trying to tell the docs for years.

[bridgit]

40. well now, that brought it all home, i was premature & my lungs were...

not fully developed at birth, having to live in a tent until i was able to come home = poor little kids :cry:

[eyeontheprize]

41. Then all baby boys should

be given pain meds before circumcision.

Imagine a grown man having that procedure wide awake.


Either you're on the bus or you're off the bus.

[LeftyMom]

43. or better yet

Nobody should cut up thier dicks at all. The very idea is sick and should not be perpetuated in modern society.

[taught_me_patience]

49. Why?

There is no evidence that circumcision has any mental effect upon males when they older. Hell, I'd know from personal experience! LMAO at all the women on this board that are so *concerned* about circumcision, when, in reality, all the guys I know (including myself) have given approx 3 min of thought about this throughout their lifetime.

[Sirveri]

53. there is evidence actually.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/
"Preliminary studies suggested that pain experienced by infants in the neonatal period may have long-lasting effects on future infant behaviour."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/104/1/e13
"Similar to what has been shown in adults, newborn and developing infants show increased magnitude physiologic and behavioral responses to increasingly invasive procedures, demonstrating that even very prematurely born infants respond to pain and differentiate stimulus intensity."

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/fitzgerald/
"We and others have established that the developing nervous system is even more vulnerable to injury than in adults and that changes to the pathways induced shortly after birth can become permanent. This is because newborn nerve damage not only results in the death of sensory nerve cells, but causes other sensory nerve terminals to sprout extensively and occupy areas normally exclusively devoted to the damaged nerve. These new sprouts form inappropriate connections with spinal nerve cord cells in areas far outside their normal termination region, causing the nervous system to become permanently distorted (See Figure 3). Even a simple skin wound at birth can trigger changes which result in the area becoming over-supplied with sensory nerve terminals. This leaves the area hypersensitive to touch long after the wound has healed"

Also, just because all the guys you know chose to exercise NO thought on a subject, doesn't mean that the rest of us are quite as oblivious.

[LeftyMom]

56. Because there's nothing ethical about unneeded surgery on the unconsenting

:shrug:

[RaRa]

54. Not positive about this

but I think I heard that the meds hurt, so they don't bother.

[davekriss]

44. Hey, I was born 2 months premature and I can tell you...

...I feel true pain. Yes. Every time I think about what our nation has become. Excruciating pain. Every time I see or hear BushCheneyRummyWolfiePerlCondi et alia. Every time I see another mangled body overseas, knowing it did not have to be, that we did not need to go to war. Tears.

So, yes, we premies feel true pain.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. The body isn't born "switched-off". Pain is pain.

Emotions and physical sensations are fully open at birth and before.

[madmark]

55. what's next, a study whether newborns cry?