(NJ) Terror charges for boys accused in plot

[Eugene]

Thursday, April 6, 2006 · Last updated 12:54 p.m. PT

Terror charges for boys accused in plot

By GEOFF MULVIHILL
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

CAMDEN, N.J. -- Four teenagers accused of plotting to kill about 25 people in a lunch-period
massacre at a high school were charged Thursday under a terrorism law created after the
Sept. 11 attacks.

The boys, ages 14 to 16, were arrested Wednesday after police heard about the alleged plot
from administrators at the school, where three of the teens are students. Their names were
not released because of their ages.

Authorities said the teens planned to attack students, teachers and others at Winslow
Township High.

<snip>

No one in New Jersey has been convicted under the terrorism law, which carries a mandatory
minimum of 30 years in prison without parole.

Full article: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Teens_Arrested_Threats.html

[ThomCat]

1. I'm sorry, I know I'll get flamed,

but there is no way that any child deserves a 30 year sentence for anything.

They're children. SOMETHING has them so angry, so frustrated, and so desperate that they're willing to kill people. Find out what that is!

Counciling! Some time in the hospital to evaluate their mental states! Interventions to address whatever the larger issues are! How about some alternatives here?

Throwing kids into prison is just throwing them away for the rest of their lives.

[NorthernSun]

2. What will Bush get for masacre of thousands?

I agree. It will be hard to convict with that harsh a sentence.

[MichiganVote]

4. 30 years a problem? The kids at Columbine got a lifetime.

These are not just children. These are homicidal children, a whole different kettle of fish my friend.

[ThomCat]

8. So you don't believe in redemption or

rehabitation? Unless they're mentally ill or have been horribly abused there is no way kids are simply killers.

[MichiganVote]

14. Redemption or rehabilitation are not the same thing as justice

served up in a sentence. And the initial post did not frame the discussion in that way. So that's quite a stretch you're making. Be that as it may, let me tell you what I know.

I know that all of the kids who are locked up for any amount of time have mental health issues. And no one has more mental health issues that the children who would kill among themselves. No, they do not have to have been abused. Factually, most kids who wind up in prison have been neglected.

There is no such thing as a simple killer. The kids who killed at Columbine were not simple killers and they didn't come to that day solely b/c they played too many violent video games or felt picked on by other youth. Those media rationales were too simple but the public loved them and ate them up.

And they were killers. And they killed. And they were sociopathic kids.

For those kids who killed and lived through their experience, the justice system provides them with mental health counseling. Would I trust them to handle the rigors or stresses of society? Not likely. These are angry, often self serving, meet my needs now kids. They are often drug addicted, tough, delusional, or manipulative. They are not safe.

I leave redemption to the religious. Rehabilitation may never include freedom for some people who cannot be trusted.

[Walt Disney]

55. But what is the difference between literature and journalism?

...Journalism is unreadable and literature is not read. That is all. ~Oscar Wilde, The Critic as Artist, 1891

He was a geneous.

[Occulus]

24. Let me tell you something:

I tolerated a lot of shit in my high school because I was perceived as being gay (whic I was, but didn't acknowledge until the age of 17), I got a lot of shot from my parents too, and the only thing that kept me from going absolutely, violently batshit insane was music (which my parents went out of their way to yank me away from- successfully, I might add- when they found out I was gay).

I'm NOT saying these kids are gay and trying to keep it hidden; I am saying there's something in their lives that has them so frustrated, so apalled at what their futures hold, so frightened and angry that they are perfectly willing to lash out at a world which is allowed to be far, far more imperfect then they themselves are expected to be.

Had I known my own home state was going to forbid me from getting married as an adult when I was in high school, I very well may have completely snapped- and the night my mom kicked me out, I very ilkely would have killed myself AND HER right then and there. Now look at these kids. Look at what they see for their futures. Look at the pressures they are expected to deal with, compared to yours or mine. Look at the rules they have to follow- in some ways even more restrictive than the people we put into jail, and (for those seniors who turn 18 prior to graduation) demeaning as hell, and arguably illegal to boot.

There's something that has these kids ready to snap, and the fact is, they didn't kill anyone. They were- fortunately- found out, but the answer is NOT to take away what meager future they may have.

Others in their situation are very likely planning the same thing right now, somewhere out there. We need to try to figure out what exactly the problem is, not simply lock them up and throw away the key.

[MichiganVote]

25. Yes, we always need to know why kids are violent in school,

yes we need to protect any student who is vulnerable. That said, we need to protect kids from those who, as you put it, would go "violently batshit insane" for ANY reason. When it comes down to planning a violent act in a school that includes the murder of classmates and staff,how can we justify light sentences by saying: The family took away the kids music.

I am aware of the pressures that ALL kids have in school or in society or in families. But killing fellow students and staff who are there to teach is wrong. And I would contend that it is for this reason that you did not hurt others in your school experience, you knew it was wrong and even tho' the cards in your deck were few, you played the right one.

HS kids are not infants. These kids are not shown to be insane and they premeditated the murder of others in school. Psychology may help them resolve their problems but it sure isn't going to resurrect the kids from Columbine. How do you know the kids killed at Columbine or anywhere else didn't have shit in their lives too?

I didn't say that I agree with the sentence in the case of these young people but I am not going to back down and say they should be shipped off to a mental institution either. They made a conscious choice, the same choice you may have been faced with, to plot to murder. The only issue that I think is under examination is the issue of whether they should be charged or sentenced under a terrorist provision.

But remember, you went one way, proving its possible to do it...and they went another way.

[BoneDaddy]

31. Agreed

I think some folks believe that just because your life sucks you can take down anyone you want because you are miserable. Whereas I can certainly understand that, I cannot nor will ever condone or agree with such actions.

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. These "people" are monsters who have no sense of the value

of human life. I don't care how angry and frustrated somebody it's no excuse for murder.

[Xeric]

15. A good book on the subject

Read Mark Ames' book "Going Postal" for a good treatise on what these kids and so many others are angry and frustrated about. The rise of the "going postal" syndrome started with the Reagan admin's war on the working class family. It destroyed the sense of security that the middle class had for many years. The stress of the job increased and so did the mental breakdowns that result in this kind of thing. In the schools, kids were encouraged to bully and the public schools left to rot.

These kids are being used as scapegoats to cow any other students that may show any spark of rebellion to a demeaning system that treats them like numbers. We've seen this so many times in recent years. Prosecutors make their careers building overblown cases like this. The hysteria is all around.

[BoneDaddy]

16. let me give you some insight

I started off my career as a drug and alcohol counselor/mental health counselor 20 years ago and I like you had a very optimistic view of humanity. I still do and inherently think that human beings are good. I have great faith in humanity overall, but some folks are too far gone. Their lives and histories read like horror novels and you wonder how they even function at all. Abuse, neglect, pain and terror make up their lives. But the truth is some people don't come back from that and the safest thing for everyone is to keep them locked up.

I work with 14-18/19 year olds and I know that they have the capacity for abstraction and know the differece between right and wrong. You cannot simply give these youth a pass when it comes to them potentially killing 25 people, just because they are young and have had a horrible life. I feel compassion to a point. That point ends when someone becomes violent. That is my maginot line and these kids crossed it. Having a bad life does not excuse you from massacring people.

There is some naivete about this issue. Life is hard at times and people are capable of the most heinous act. Love doesn't solve all problems and not everyone is redeemable. You do your best but some people are too lost and cannot ever come back into society.

[MichiganVote]

26. Agreed

[dysfunctional press]

27. another perspective-

columbine or not, there's a HUGE leap between a few adolescents "talking about" a plot to "kill" 25 people and then actually doing it. If every couple/few kids that ever talked such talk were locked up- it would be a huge number of people.

[BoneDaddy]

30. Yes

And when they talk about it, it is considered "terroristic threats". Sure there is a difference between talking and doing, but a clear message needs to be sent regardless. I am all for rehabilitation attempts and agree that 30 years is draconian.

[dysfunctional press]

32. they've criminalized 'normal' behaviour.

and it seems to me to be a violation of the 1st amendment.

[BoneDaddy]

34. Killing 25 classmates and teachers are

normal in your book? Wow, you have a high tolerance for insanity.

[dysfunctional press]

35. they didn't kill anybody- they "talked" about it.

and yes- for some adolescents, it IS a normal way to deal with the issues and frustrations that they face.

but i suppose that you also think that any band that includes the song "If i had a rocket-launcher" in their repertoire should be sent to gitmo and throw away the key? and if not, why not?

[BoneDaddy]

37. I work in a school

so don't lecture me about what is and what isn't. We take into consideration anger and frustration, we take into consideration yelling it out in an impulse. If a homicidal threat occurs we have crisis services on-site that evaluate the level of homicidal ideation or attempt. I myself worked as a crisis counselor for over ten years in this capacity and your naivete is staggering.

Simply saying it is one thing, developing a plan, actively looking for a weapon to commit the crime and singling individuals for exucution premeditatively is a WEE bit more than saying it in a fit of anger.

Don't put words in my mouth or assume that you know what you are talking about, you obviously do not.

[dysfunctional press]

41. you're obviously mistaken...

i DO know what i'm talking about, because i was one of the kids who did it. i wasn't a miscreant- just bored...and i came up with fairly detailed plans for blowing up my school- but obviously with no intent of ever actually doing so- but in today's world, that kind of THINKING can land you behind bars for 30 years-plus.

broad-scale thought-policing is NEVER a good thing.

[BoneDaddy]

42. Again

YOU THOUGHT about it, everybody thinks about both suicide and homicide at one point, or at many points, in their lives. You didn't plan, have a list, try and procure a gun and so on. There is a difference. It is the minimization of this that I see from you and others that I find disingenuous.

And to repeat, I think that 30 years minimum is very extreme, but some of those kids if not all may be very pathological and that type of naivete regarding dangerous youth is what I am talking about.

[dysfunctional press]

43. again, again...

yes, i DID have a plan- written down, and with a list of steps...and no, i didn't try to procure a gun, because i already had one.

until people actually commit a crime, they are not criminals...and criminalizing thought and speech is not a solution that REAL americans could EVER support.

[BoneDaddy]

44. Well thank the gods

you reached some sense. Thinking is not a crime, but contrary to your lack of legal knowledge, planning a crime is ALSO a crime. Just because you didn't commit a crime doesn't mean you are not guilty.

By your twisted logic if our authorities caught Osama Bin Ladin, himself in a room full of explosives, maps to attack a site in the US and the other plans to do so, you would think he was innocent according your what you wrote.

If I am caught with plans to do any crime, that is a crime. YOu just don't get it, do you.

So you think there should be NO consequences? lol

[dysfunctional press]

45. kids are kids...

and will do kid things.

if they must be charged, it should be as juveniles, NOT terrorists.

[BoneDaddy]

52. LOL

I keep saying again, cause it seems like you didn't hear me the first two times. I am not, or have not advocated for them to be charged with the full 30 yrs minimum. I am reacting to the justification of some people in here to trying to sweep this under the rug. That is insane.

This is conspiracy to murder. What do you suggest they get?

[MissB]

48. Osama wasn't a kid.

Nice strawman, though. :hi:

[BoneDaddy]

51. No strawman

If you bothered to read any of my previous posts, you would have seen that I did not, ever support the original idea of the students spending 30 yrs minimum. I was very clear about that. What I was responding to was the minimization of this situation by some in here. I would book them with conspiracy to murder and have them spend some time in juvie.

It was the "kids will be kids" attitude that I find totally ridiculous. If these were a bunch of neo-nazi youth or freepers caught in the same situation, you would be calling for their heads.

And guess what, I will be here saying the same thing as I would for these kids.

[BoneDaddy]

59. did you

just learn about what a straw man is?

[MissB]

61. Have you learned what one is yet?

"By your twisted logic if our authorities caught Osama Bin Ladin, himself in a room full of explosives, maps to attack a site in the US and the other plans to do so, you would think he was innocent according your what you wrote."

The topic was about kids. Osama wasn't a kid.

Nice try, though. :eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

64. No

The issue was the ridiculousness of the statement that "conspiracy to murder" was the point not the age of the perpatrators, so get your facts straight and take another freshman logic class.

[MichiganVote]

47. And in today's world you would be considered a serious risk

And btw, boredom in kids who resort to thoughts of violence is anger, not "normal" levels of anger, but abnormal levels of anger.

[MichiganVote]

46. No, there would not be a great number. However, all schools have

gone through extensive training since Columbine and schools have crisis teams that routinely go through additional training. That training specifically references threats or threatening talk as being the precursor to hostile acts.

The vast majority of students sail through school just fine. Others struggle but do not act out their problems on others. A small segment are dangerous and they need to be recognized as such to help them and to protect others.

[BoneDaddy]

53. Absolutely

I cannot agree more. This is a sad reality but it is a reality that is accurate and true. But school staff are overwhelmed. I work in a school and have a caseload of 285. how effective can you possibly be. I spend easily 70% of my time serving 5% of the population because they are the ones in most need, but end up neglecting the other 95%. But more counselors means more money and townships do not want to pay more in taxes and it becomes this vicious circle.

[MichiganVote]

56. You and I need to talk sometime. I both hear and know your pain.

One of these days we're going to have to figure out that whole turning water into wine thing that Christ was so successful at. Its surely the only thing that will satisfy the public.

[BoneDaddy]

58. Exactly

that is the expectation... That we will be able to take children and adolescents, many who come from horrible backgrounds and turn them, magically, into productive citizens.

Schools are given all the responsibility and NONE of the power...It can't come from the school, it HAS to come from home.

[mbperrin]

69. I teach in a high school of 2500+ enrollment, and we have 1

counselor. He's young and optimistic and headed straight for burnout. You're right; nobody wants to pay for what it would take to actually do something about problems.

[sandnsea]

60. I agree, it's just identifying them

I tend to not support long sentences for teens either, and there are some really excellent programs that turn around some really disturbed teens. But there's also no doubt that some are just too far gone. We really need to have more brutally honest professionals who are willing to make those calls, and a system that doesn't find the need to treat these disturbed people like dogs.

[Evergreen Emerald]

65. columbine

[Xithras]

3. What an incredibly stupid prosecutor

Definition of terrorism: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

i.e., it's only TERRORISM if you're pushing an agenda. What these kids were discussing was plain old mass murder. If they can't prove agenda, they don't have a terrorism charge. Without that, the kids walk.

Of course, this all assumes that the prosecutors can prove that they even had the means to carry the attack out, or the willingness to actually do so. My friends and I joked about blowing up our high school on more than one occasion, and one bored afternoon we actually discussed where to plant the bombs to bring the building down the fastest. God knows that we weren't serious, but I'd hate to think how those conversations would be treated today. Kids get bored, kids get mad, kids say stupid things and don't think about the ramifications (they can't, they're not wired for it yet). A few idle conversations isn't enough to convince me of anything.

Neither is the allegation that they tried to buy a gun...unless it can be directly connected to the threat. I owned my first gun at about 12, and I "massacred" a lot of soda cans with it. Hell, I owned TWO guns at the same time that my friends and I were joking about blowing up our high school. The two facts never connected, so it really wasn't a big deal (this was LOOOONG before Columbine by the way).

[Robb]

5. Stupid like a fox

...he knows (a) it'll get press, always good for the prosecutor on this kind of case, and (b) he can get higher penalties.

[rman]

6. Creating terrorists out of thin air, by redefining "terrorism"

to include crimes for which there already are ways to prosecute perpetrators. The effect that it has is that there are more "terrorists" and that the punishment for those crimes is more severe than it used to be.

[superconnected]

10. Yep. This means anyone can be prosecuted for terrorism

and get life in prison if the administration doesn't like what they're doing.

Protestors can be terrorists. Gays can be terrorists to family values, etc.

[The Stranger]

7. But but but but WHITE PEOPLE CANNOT BE TERRORISTS!

ONLY BROWN PEOPLE. Didn't get the memo?

[NorthernSun]

9. weapons?

What did these terrorists have for weapons?

[progressivebydesign]

20. They were trying to buy firearms for the attack. n/t

[The Stranger]

28. Stories percolate through the local media regarding arrests of groups

with explosives and stockpiling weapons, but they never go national because the suspects are White people and and not considered "terrorist."

They appear here on the DU boards. Watch for them.

[NorthernSun]

11. Al Queda

The four boys appeared in family court, and a judge ordered them held for psychiatric evaluations.

Authorities said the boys did not have any weapons to carry out the alleged plot. But one law enforcement official who spoke on the 'condition of anonymity' said they tried to buy a handgun.

Yeah they sound pretty dangerous!

[superconnected]

13. It's the thought crime that counts.

[superconnected]

12. all you have to do is get together and talk, bam you're a terrorist.

"Authorities said the boys did not have any weapons to carry out the alleged plot. But one law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said they tried to buy a handgun."

People here wanting bush out of office, clearly terrorists.

[ConcernedCanuk]

17. Rumors? - this is National News because of Rumors??

.
.
.

"Rumors circulating through Winslow Township High School, led to the boys suspension from school on Monday, according to interim superintendent Michael E. Schreiner.

“We turned it over to the police, and appropriately so, because of the nature of the rumors. "

MORE

and they are CHARGED already, hmmmm

yet hundreds languish in Gitmo with no charges . . .

Whether the charges stick or not,

These boys lives are ruined

[progressivebydesign]

19. They have more than rumors.. AND they tried to buy a firearm.

Oh.. poor little boys... their little lives are ruined by plotting to kill numerous people at school and TRYING to buy a weapon to do so.

[Karmakaze]

22. Actually...

An ANONYMOUS law enforcement official ALLEDGED they tried to buy a hand gun.

Big difference. An anonymous law enforcement official could also have alledged they tried to buy a nuke. Would you buy that?

Ever heard of innocent before being PROVEN guilty?

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

23. They're not innocent until proven guilty on a "progressive" board-?

I found that hard to believe

[progressivebydesign]

18. Hmm.. "children". Hardly.

A plan to murder 25 other people, and trying to buy handgun.. umm.. they aren't children. Everyone thinks that terrorism is all about people from other countries.. terrorism was OKC bombing, and it would be a group of students (who are well old enuff to know right from wrong) planning to masacre 25 people at their school. Sorry.. I have ZERO sympathy for these "children". Of course, could be because I have a child in high school, who could easily become a victim of criminal scumbags like those...

[Xeric]

21. They are children

Way to try and convict without hearing the evidence. So many of these cases turn out to be no more than hysteria or other kids looking to get someone in trouble or just plain rumor. I'll wait for the evidence, thanks. I have a feeling you'd feel differently if it was your kid that was accused.

[BoneDaddy]

33. True

but how would you FEEL if your kid was on their list. All a matter of perspective. If my kid was on their list, you bet your ass I would be pushing for the maximum penalty and if my kid was one of the accused, I would be pushing for them to get as much help as possible.

But guess what, if you were a really good parent and involved, chances are you would have a clue of what your kid was about.

[Coventina]

29. Good grief, it's against the law to be an angry teenager now?

What exactly did these kids actually do?

They tried to buy a gun?
And for that they get a charge of terrorism and 30 years?

I guess I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, because I feel sorry for them.

[BoneDaddy]

38. You feel sorry

for them buying a gun which they planned to kill others with. I tell ya, the level of misplaced compassion is overwhelming in here.

[Coventina]

39. They were caught, the tragedy was prevented. Why send them to prison for

longer than most actual murderers get?

They are kids, they have no perspective. That's why we have juvenile courts after all. Yeah, they planned to do terrible things. They need help. Part of that help should be punishment. But 30 years is way overboard.

[BoneDaddy]

40. I agree

in previous posts I had already stated that I thought the 30 year minimum was ludicrous and over the top, you may have missed it. I am more responding to the other end of the spectrum where people are minimizing the situation as if it was not that big deal. That was what I was referring to in general, not the sentence they would recieve.

[Phx_Dem]

57. do you think they should be treated

as juveniles or adults? Personally I think given their ages that juvenile court would be more appropriate. Depends on other factors also, family history priors etc.

[MichiganVote]

49. They premeditated wholesale murder in a school and they tried to

buy a gun. While I don't agree with the sentence, I don't think you realize how much you minimize the actions of these youth by merely calling them angry. On any given day plenty of people are angry who do not resort to this. It takes a special breed of cat to do what these kids did and were planning to do.

What is lost on most of the people who have posted in this string is that this display of threat is exactly what school personnel have been trained to look for and respond to. It's about safety for everyone.

[Coventina]

62. Ok, I'll give you this much: I was being flippant in my post title.

I'm glad the kids were found out and stopped. And yes, I think there needs to be *some* consequences for them. But I think terrorism charges and long prison sentences do not benefit our society.

These kids have anger issues. They need help. But that doesn't mean that they can't do some more growing up and become solid citizens. Anger and despair are part of being a teenager. Some suffer more than others. Why do you think movies like "Carrie" and "Heathers" and such are so popular?

[MichiganVote]

63. Since when do people 'grow out' of murder?

In answer to your question, "Why do you think that movies like "Carrie" and "Heathers" are so popular?

Answer: When they make a movie about Columbine, be sure to look me up....for now, it would appear that someone somewhere has decided it would not be too popular.

[Coventina]

67. There have been lots of people who have killed and regretted it.

And as far as the movie issue goes, you are comparing fictional stories to non-fictional stories. Nobody in their right mind wants to "re-live" the Colombine nightmare.

But revenge fantasies are very popular. If you and all your friends made it through your teenage years without fantasizing, talking about, or wishing you could torment those who had bullied you then congratulate yourself for being a higher brand of human than most of us.

[Evergreen Emerald]

66. "anger issues"

is an under-statement. These types of situations for years were treated as such (or under-treated as such). We now know that "anger issues" does not adequately describe the type of people that would mow down their fellow classmates and teachers. We learned the hard way what happens when those types of situations are under-estimated.

[Coventina]

68. So the answer is to call them terrorists?

And lock them away for a longer time than actual murderers usually get?

[Evergreen Emerald]

70. The answer is to take them seriously

Rather than treat them like little kids who need a swat on the butt, treat them like the murderers there almost were (and would have been but for other's intervention).

25 teachers and students. They planned to murder them. My daughter sits in a school lunch room. I want to make sure she is protected from people who would kill her. You don't want them called terrorists? You want to call them
children-with-anger-issues? Your argument indicates your belief that the state over-reacted. Your suggestion indicates a desire for an under-reaction. When it comes to something of this magnitude, I prefer over-reaction. Historically we under-reacted. I am glad we learned from our mistakes.

[Coventina]

71. And what if it was your daughter who was part of the plot?

Do you believe that she would deserve to be locked away until she was 45 or so years old?

[Evergreen Emerald]

72. my daughter is not a murderer.

She values life greatly--even the life of a spider.

[Coventina]

73. These kids aren't murderers either. And they may like spiders just as

much.

[Joanne98]

50. The slippery slope of the "war on terra".

[brentspeak]

54. Well, at least this alleged plot took place in NJ

They would have had a tough time obtaining illegal firearms here, given this state's excellent gun laws. Had this occured in another state, the article would likely be describing a massacre that had already taken place.