Health care is top financial concern for the rich

[lovuian]

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/redir.php?jid=4d8810923ad0680c&cat=3a8a80d6f705f8cc

NEW YORK - Wealthy Americans — with financial cushions ranging from significant to substantial — worry that rising health care costs will eat through their assets, with a majority of them citing providing for their health care as their top financial concern, a new study said.

One-third of the almost 1,500 wealthy Americans surveyed in a study commissioned by PNC Financial Services Group said that they were concerned that health care costs would consume a major portion of their financial assets. That concern is greatest among those between the ages of 45 and 64, with 43 percent of them noting that fear.

The future of the Medicare program, the government health care program for the elderly, weighed heavily on respondents' minds. Forty-two percent perceive the potential insolvency of the system as a threat or a huge threat to their family's wealth. About half of those between the ages of 45 and 64 think its demise would be a threat to their family's wealth. More than half of those surveyed who have children believed their offspring wouldn't benefit from Medicare.

more...

When the wealthy is worried then can we think Universal health

Its going to be that NOBODY is going to be able to afford this system...

[xray s]

1. screw them

They dance when Bush drains the Treasury with their tax cuts, then complain they may not get Medicare benefits!

Hey, why don't you just let your new tax cut financed Hummer perform your heart surgery.

[OKthatsIT]

101. Let Them Eat Cake!

ALOT of cake. Nothing BUT cake.

[Tight_rope]

110. My sentiments exactly...Fuck'em! Self-Righteous bastards!

[saigon68]

129. I hope their "ATTENDANT" WHO CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH

Ignores their Dirty Diaper

[cantstandbush]

137. God forbid that they should have to spend their money on anything but play

[Kenergy]

2. bullshit n/t

[undergroundpanther]

3. I hope the rich DIE like the millions of poor they

See fit to DENY benifiets.

Fuck the rich pieces of shit.About time they felt some PAIN.
I hope they feel MORE.

[brentspeak]

4. There are plenty of decent rich people

Not all of them are the "I've got mine! Screw you!" types.

[undergroundpanther]

6. well ok

are the giving their wealth to others? Themselves or letting other people do it for them? How involved are they?Are they helping at a distance?

Do they fear poverty enough to help strangers and expect nothing back?
Or do they fear losing wealth so they help people "on conditions" and pick and choose who looks "worthy" of their help?

I ask because I really don't trust this notion that rich people give unless it does something for themselves first.

Trickle down economics never seems to trickle down,to the poorest and it isn't just the screw you types withholding help ,well off nice people tend to do their part in the withholding too.They do it by picking and choosing and this creates a hierarchy based on their self serving values too that the poor must please or be denied help.

[genieroze]

79. Trickle down economics, is when the rich urinate on you and it

trickles down from your head to your feet.

[meow2u3]

121. Trickle-down economics = Tinkle-on economics

You're absolutely right. The only thing that trickles down is the piss of the selfish, I-got-mine-screw-you rich to the rest of the population.

[Southsideirish]

8. There may be "some" but I disagree about "plenty." I say this based on

my own personal observations. For example, one small anecdote - I was once designated as
a charity collector in my office and the well to do, full time employees would throw in change or a dollar while the temps would donate a days pay. Small incident, I agree, but it only underlies observations I've made my whole life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I grew up near a wealthy neighborhood and went to school with wealthy kids

and I strongly disagree. Sure some were stingy but the majority were not.

[Fovea]

51. And I am waiting to see them rise up

and fight for the working class...

calling all decent rich folks. Anyone... hello...

Yeah, I guess it's true.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for decent rich folks to vote Bush, watch more Fox news, and continue to worry about #1.

Sorry, the rich lost my sympathy during the first Reagan admin, and never tried to get it back. Now I say eat the fucking rich. Tear down the fucking gates, and let them wail for their undocumented security guards, maids and gardeners to stop the brigandage.

[brentspeak]

58. You haven't noticed people like Warren Buffett and George Soros?

Two of the richest people in the world. Buffett, the second richest man in the world, has donated a lot of money to Democrats, criticized Bush's presidency many times, and is a staunch supporter of retaining the estate tax (which the Republican trust fund babies - who want to inherit, not earn their wealth - call the "death tax").

George Soros, a billionaire, is the major funder for Moveon.org. You can't "rise up" more than that.

What about wealthy entertainers, who the Rush Lim-bots call "limousine liberals"? Quite a few of them give their time and money freely for many social causes, receive nothing in return, all the while knowing they could be losing fans and future roles. But what do the Republicans have? The only people who speak on their behalf have to be paid to do so (Limbaugh, Sean Inanity).

Then there's simply anonymous, not well-known rich people, who donate a lot of money for good causes, but you just don't hear about them.

I know the kind of rich people that you're referring to: fallow country club types who don't care about anything but themselves, and who often obtained their wealth either through shady, unethical means or by inheriting it. I worked at a country club for about half-a-year, and I met a ton of people like that. About 90% of the club members and their families were SOBs -- but the other 10% were surprisingly the opposite.

[stepnw1f]

61. No... But Most of Them Are

Sorry

[BiggJawn]

113. S'Yeah, right.

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's "Trickle Down"...

http://www.namebase.org/richnote.html

Let's be honest: you'll never win the lottery.

On the other hand, the chances are pretty good that you'll slave away at some miserable job the rest of your life. That's because you were in all likelihood born into the wrong social class. Let's face it -- you're a member of the working caste. Sorry!

As a result, you don't have the education, upbringing, connections, manners, appearance, and good taste to ever become one of us. In fact, you'd probably need a book the size of the yellow pages to list all the unfair advantages we have over you. That's why we're so relieved to know that you still continue to believe all those silly fairy tales about "justice" and "equal opportunity" in America.

Of course, in a hierarchical social system like ours, there's never been much room at the top to begin with. Besides, it's already occupied by us -- and we like it up here so much that we intend to keep it that way. But at least there's usually someone lower in the social hierarchy you can feel superior to and kick in the teeth once in a while. Even a lowly dishwasher can easily find some poor slob further down in the pecking order to sneer and spit at. So be thankful for migrant workers, prostitutes, and homeless street people.

(More at the link)

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. There are plenty of decent, caring and generous wealthy people

[CAcyclist]

123. Yes, there are

but they should all be paying more taxes - a lot more taxes. It would be healthier for us all if they spread that wealth around instead of using it to deplete the earth's resources.

[Seabiscuit]

153. Yes, there are. I'm one of them.

Over the past 3 years I've contributed the legal max to Howard Dean, Barbara Boxer, and Francine Busby.

And done a lot of field work for all three candidates.

But health care? Sheeit, mon, I ain't "rich", just comfortable. And I can afford my medical bills. I don't know what these "super-rich" people are complaing about.

It's the middle class and the poor who can't afford proper medical care in this country, not those of us who can afford to retire.

[WhiteTara]

30. we all die

this isn't a punishment. It is the natural flow of life.

[stepnw1f]

62. I Totally Understand How You Feel

I've been poor my whole life. I haven't made more than 42 K a year, and now make less than that. I am starving just to SURVIVE, not live. They should feel the pain, 10 fold for purposely ignoring other humans needs. Sure there are wealthy people that are good people too, but most of them? Sorry... they can go fuck themselves.

[gglor]

86. The rich do not have feelings

thats why they are rich. Greed for wealth and power is their only ambition. I had a hard time accepting this concept.. and that this concept is inbred in families like the bush clan.

[UpInArms]

5. According to Dimson, all they need is a Health Savings Plan

and all will be well!

Remember, it's the ownership society! You can own everything that goes wrong!

:eyes:

[lovuian]

7. The point is when the rich think healthcare is unaffordable

that means everybody agrees HEALTHCARE has to be dealt with and Universal coverage is probably something rich poor want NOW...

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Well we have to make Congress want it

and since they have great health care, this will be a hard job.

[oblivious]

9. The possibility of Govt health care is the greatest threat facing America

Heard that on Fox news this week. They discussed the main aim of the Democrats - to take ALL of your money and spend it for you, just like the Soviet Union - and then finished with the greatest threat facing America - government medicare.

[jwirr]

22. When they say that I think about Sweden and Finland and

other EU countries that have high taxes but great social programs. I see them as very superior to the social situation in the US.

[drm604]

42. Greatest threat

Gee, I thought it was Iraq and Iran. :sarcasm:

Maybe they should make up their minds.

[David in Canada]

10. Canadian Health Care is Better!

I am so glad I came here to Canada last June.

Canadian doctors are much nicer and more compassionate than their American counterparts. At least their Floridian ones anyway.

[area51]

16. Welcome to DU, David 1981.

May I join you in Canada so I can get employment & decent healthcare? :evilgrin:

[David in Canada]

41. Sure!

Sounds great! :D Unfortunately, it might possibly be harder for you than it was for me. :(

My mother was born in Canada and was therefore a citizen at the time of my birth. Since I was born of a Canadian parent on or after February 14, 1977 (I was born in 1981), I technically was born with dual citizenship. :hippie:

I had no problems with immigration because of that and have already recieved my official citizenship card and social insurance number. My health care card is still pending due to a residency requirement.

A good website to check out for eligibility and information is http://www.cic.gc.ca

[lovuian]

33. Lets have a reality check here... The companies can't compete

with countries who have Universal Health and they will be getting out of pensions and healthcare all together... We are getting lousy healthcare at exorbitant prices just so pharmaceuticals and medial equipment companies make money... HMO's are about as close as you get to it except you pay for a system that will say we are dumping you and won't pay... thanks for all your money... Medical Insurance companies have to go... to Government Insurance companies
Medicaid and Medicare already are socialized medicine lets go all the way and have every sick American rick poor never have to worry about paying for that bill .......

[Sivafae]

13. "..significant to substantial..." Um, could you expand on that?

"Those surveyed had annual incomes of $150,000 or more with investable assets of $500,000. Such assets would include a home, bonds and stocks. The retired respondents had at least $1 million in investable assets. Nearly 200 of those surveyed had assets of over $5 million, with 116 of them having assets of $10 million or more"
Thank you.
Perhaps they should buy insurance stock. That way they could be making money while they loose the rest of it.

[gizmo1979]

15. How dare they even say something so stupid.

How do they think the normal people feel about it?We don't have millions to lose.Let them eat cake!

[saddemocrat]

17. I'll get flamed for this, I'm sure

but my dh and I started out at point zero like everyone else. We got through college (and are still paying back buttloads of money to Uncle Sam).

According to the salaries posted though, apparently, we belong to this elusive 'wealthy' bunch.

Do you know one of the reasons we donate so little money now? We pay so much in taxes. We pay 42% of our income to social security and govt. tax and that doesn't include state tax. It's a lot of money. We pay for the salary of 2-3 teachers each year AND we are hit with the alternative minimum tax each year too because we have >2 children and live in a state that has high state taxes (MN). We are unable to deduct our children, mortgage interest or state tax from our federal tax return. Are you cheering yet? Wahoo...those "rich" jerks DESERVE to pay in more, right?

Is it fair to say that we don't deserve to earn a nice salary now that we have worked our whole lives to get graduate educations? Are we 'bad' people now? Would you classify us as 'freepers' now that we've dug ourselves out and have made a better life for ourselves? Maybe you would..I don't know. If you found yourself advancing in your career thanks to your own efforts would you suddenly not DESERVE the pay increase? We are honest, hard-working Americans.

I assure you though, that we aren't "rich". We do live in a nice home now...we just moved in this year. We have two nice cars but we bought them both used. Our furniture is the same stuff we've had for years and it's nothing fancy. We don't have investments, or money socked away somewhere...though we're trying really hard to start saving a little for things like car repairs, etc. We don't take Disney trips etc each year. Our family vacation consists of a 5-day summer camping trip each year.

Quite honestly, I don't donate money anymore...I donate my time. I volunteer to work with the less fortunate and at the local hospital....I participate in food drives...but I don't hand out money. I have 5 children to put through college and we will not qualify for any govt. programs (despite paying shitloads in taxes) other than loans. We feel a responsibility to help our children with the expense of college as much as possible because of the rising costs. Also, we worry about the rising costs of healthcare and the fact that social security and medicare may end up not being there....We are trying to save money for retirement and hope to be able to put away a little extra....it seems like there is a lot of talk of letting us you know "rich folk" (i say this very sarcastically) who pay in incredible amounts of money in taxes (would YOU be willing to fork over 42% of your salary right now? I'm voting for a flat tax!) and support many of the govt. programs including medicare(which we do very willingly, btw. We are both democrats)will likely not be eligible.

Now you want us to donate more money to other 'worthy cuases'? I think that we contribute enought, to be honest....If you want me to volunteer my time, I'm there.

[Make7]

19. I don't believe you fit the criteria outlined in the article.

See post #13

- Make7

[saddemocrat]

20. we

meet the salary requirements (that's why we pay so much in taxes and social security) and almost meet the home investment requirements...because we live in a very expensive area of the country A starter home here that is 50 years old is 170,000 :o ....Right now, we don't meet the investment portfolio requirements, but we are trying our darndest to put away enough for retirement that we can pay for our own housing, food and healthcare so that we won't be a burden to our children.

[Make7]

23. If you owe "buttloads of money" for student loans...

...and are still making payments on your home, I don't think it could be said that you have established a "significant to substantial" "financial cushion".

- Make7

[saddemocrat]

27. you're right, and yet...

we know plenty of people in the same situation with good incomes and nice homes...and a lot of debt for student loans, etc...Most of the people in the same situation as us will be paying off the student loans until retirement! It was our little "investment" in a better future. And yet...there are plenty of people around us who will say "they have the money, why don't they...." I am a scientist...my DH is a physician (who, btw goes in all of the time to see the uninsured and never bills them!) It is assumed that we are 'dripping' with money and just bilk the system for all it's worth. You wouldn't believe the negative comments we hear from people...and here we both worked hard to get where we are. DH is a caring doc who...yes...earns a nice income...but also sees the uninsured (even going to the hospital in the middle of the night knowing he won't be compensated and not caring about that). The average physician coming out of medical school has $150,000 dollars in DEBT...then there are years of residency training that are poorly compensated for the hours worked (he worked a good 100 hours/week at a salary that would have been about $4/hour) Add to that expensive licensing costs, board exams, etc...and the debt for some can skyrocket towards 200k (not for us, thankfully). Many people spend their lives paying that off, despite outward appearances (nice house, car, etc).

I have had people angry with me for not buying more 'creative memories', 'pampered chef' or whatever they are selling. These 'friends' have come out point blank and said "You are a doctor's wife...you can AFFORD it and you won't buy it...so-and-so is 'just' a teacher and look at what she bought" :o Hmmmm... I should spend any additional income that I have to help other people start their businesses? My money is...your money?

I haven't bought new clothes for myself in years really...I spend discretionary money on my chilren and on saving for their education and our retirement. Quite frankly, even if I wanted to spend my discretionary funds on a new, fancy, expensive something-or-other, wouldn't it be my choice? After all, I am paying through the ASS in taxes...and many of my friends are getting a lot of money back each year.

Most people who earn 150k or more are still paying off their homes, btw...Our only financial cushion right now if our retirement account. It is our first priority...because we both went to school for so long we started paying in late....we know that we are counted amongst the people whose children will not receive grants for school, etc...regardless of our student loan debt and not-paid off house, btw. We know that we will be the people many will look at and say "they earn x dollars, so they shouldn't get medicare or social security" etc.

Sorry for the rants..this is obviously a sore topic with me.

I actually believe that we should have a flat tax in this country on earned income....and tax inheritance more. We hav worked hard and sacrificed to get where we are....

[eyeontheprize]

70. Why do physicians and their families

feel entitled to become rich? You don't have a license to wealth because your or his education was expensive. Even the most poorly paid doc still can be all but guaranteed a six figure income. Specialists can enjoy $300,000+ income, but all you hear from doc's is poor mouth bullshit.

Guess what? Lot's of bright well-educated people will never have what you do, so stop your whining and enjoy one of the best lifestyles in the world. And never, never, ever, ever dare to call care that your husband bills and eventually writes off as charity. Before your husband gives up he will have a collector dunn those patients mercilessly. That is not charity, it is a business loss, there is one big fucking difference.

[The Flaming Red Head]

130. Poor you

want some cheese with that?

I am self employed (as a nurse) and can't afford health insurance and still pay out a lot in self employment taxes. If I could keep the money I pay out I could afford health insurance, but this system is not fair.

[Megahurtz]

149. Lol! Totally!

:rofl:

[raccoon]

144. Maybe you have,

" We hav worked hard and sacrificed to get where we are...."

But sometimes people do both and STILL end up destitute, due to illness, disability, etc.

[raccoon]

145. Maybe you have,

" We hav worked hard and sacrificed to get where we are...."

But sometimes people do both and STILL end up destitute, due to illness, disability, etc.

[jwirr]

24. I think that is the real problem with this survey. Upper middle

class people are being defined as "the rich". If I am not mistaken the people who *ss is interested in are much wealthier than that. I remember setting in a Bible class in Iowa with a bunch of small farmers. They were very upset by the "hate" for the rich. Being the poorest in the group their rhetoric was aimed at me. I waited and when they were done complaining I said, "You are not the rich. Even if your total wealth was a million dollars - mostly tied up in land and equipment - you are by far not the wealthy of this country." They just stared at me and then it dawned on them that I was right. Many had to borrow to but the next crop in.

[Fovea]

60. Correct!

Further, human beings are not as simple as our labels. A wealthy individual may not represent the interests of the 'rich' exclusively, or even predominantly.

But read Kevin Phillips, and you get a feel for a capital class that has bent every part of government, law, and society to their advantage. And watching the BushII machine you realize that all they can do anymore to increase their status is to make everyone else a peon.

So if you are not a vested member of the investment class, so wealthy that you spend a significant amount of money to protect and engross your current wealth, you prolly ain't rich, merely upper middle class in the 21st C.

But from my perspective, that is, the son of a mother whose family went from modest means to having lost it all in the depression-- who is the first member of my family in three generations to graduate from high school-- who worked my way up to the top of my particular profession after having to drop out of college in my last semester because I could not afford the final 3 fucking credit hours-- who still managed to contribute to society by giving a decade of my life to working for near minimum wage in the medical field-- who, despite an IQ in excess of 160, and a GPA in excess of 3.6 could not get the aid to finish my last semester of undergrad studies-- from my perspective there is not enough economic justice to sustain this society in the hard times to come.

With no other real choice, I went into programming to try and get out from under the debt load. When one of my employers refused to honor his promise to provide health insurance, and my gall bladder perforated, sending me to the hospital with peritonitis, I worked even harder to get back to paying my debt, without a degree, and with very dicey health. Why didn't I sue the bastard? His dad owns a significant piece of Kansas.

I was starting to get my feet back under me, despite not being well for quite a while after the surgery. And I finally got a good paying job with good benefits. Of course, the 65-70 hour weeks didn't let me take much time off to do things like seeing a doctor. I was far too busy earning my employer $2K+/day billable to be encouraged to take care of myself.

So I guess it shouldn't have come as much of a surprise when I found myself getting driven to my old ER having suffered a stroke and two heart attacks from the undiagnosed diabetes and hypertension, probably developed from the pancreas and kidney damage from the previous peritonitis. Lucky for me that I was actually home that week, as opposed to the previous four months of work required suitcase living I had just returned from.

I now have several debilitating problems from the stroke, chronic pain being one significant one. Too bad for me about the war on (some) drugs.

I wind up sleeping a lot, having days where I am too confused/emotional/in pain to do much, and spend a lot of money for health care, sans health insurance. The only thing that keeps me in medicine (3 anti-hypertensives and 2 diabetes meds) is the private disability insurance, which despite my paying for it while I worked, is currently threatened because Social Security thinks that because of my educational status(!!!!) I am not disabled, merely impaired(!!!) because I can stand up and don't drool too much.

Now, why do I hate the rich? Because when I worked in medicine in the 80's, I saw Reagan empty out the mental hospitals for profit. One of my buddies at the time, a resident at the hospital I worked at, was killed by a street person/psych patient trying to hit him up for drugs. I watched Clinton's welfare 'reform' and NAFTA do the rest for the working poor, during the dot com boom-- again, for profit. Now these 'welfare cadillac queens' are living out of junked cars down by the local railyard.

Why do I hate the rich? For making education a commodity, rather than a public good, or even a right. For enfranchising themselves and denying others even basic medical care. And then I hate them more for complaining about the cost of something people are dying without daily.

Why do I hate the rich? Because I know the next health crisis may go only half way to killing me, and I can really only afford to die suddenly-- for the want of one more semester whose cost became less important than someone else's profit, I would be half way through a career teaching now, and probably not be disabled because teachers generally can find the time for their health.

Oh yeah... during the time I had to drop out of school, a very rich friend of mine was oh so sympathetic. Perhaps it is my fault that I was too proud to beg for money, but no one offered in the face of my desperation either. For the fact that I am so far in default for college loans that I will certainly die long before I get back to being able to pay it off, I hate the rich.

So to the fortune 500 corporate vice president who offered his consolation when I dropped out, certain that I would work harder and overcome my disadvantages...choke on your guilt, if you are human enough to have any.

If I rail at the rich, perhaps I am just another lazy liberal wanting a handout from Uncle Sam, hating the rich for their greater work ethic and superior intelligence. Or perhaps I am someone who worked very hard, was very smart, and watched the rich eat my health and my future for profit.

[pitohui]

92. thanks for your story

i appreciate your sharing this, i wouldn't even know where to start but all i can say is thank you for telling this story, there is resonance here

[eyeontheprize]

71. Bingo

Ask the Bush twins if they worry about how to pay medical bills.

[CAcyclist]

124. Exactly

The truly wealthy are the people you will never in a lifetime ever talk too. They are not your doctors, your lawyers and your accountants. They are the corporate CEOs that are draining the life from everyone else.

[Beausoir]

31. I won't flame you. Our situations are very similar.

My husband and I started out at zero as well. I remember once finding a $20 in a snow bank and we celebrated our good luck for a week! Even walked to McDonalds and treated ourselves to a hamburger.

We worked ourselves to exhaustion for years...college, medschool and then a grueling surgical residency with insane hours and little pay.

The debt load is crushing but we are making good progress on it.

Now..we are most definitely in the income level that defines us as rich and I am very thankful for that. BUT...this idea that my husband and I are some sort of Freeper scum-sucking pigs really chaps my hide.

We are good people, good liberals and good members of our community.

And I am sick of being asked to feel ashamed because of who we are and how hard we have worked.

Fortuantely, those people are a small fraction of DU.

[saddemocrat]

34. Thanks

I think it is awful to be made to feel guilty for working hard to find success...it also bothers me that we almost have to feel ashamed for who we are/what we have achieved. I'm also really bothered by the idea that we're supposed to now give money left and right to every organization/friend/family member/poor person etc when we're just still trying to get our debt under control.

[winston61]

104. Thank you for your hard work and liberalism

It's important now not to get infected with the M.D. God complex. Are you entitled to rewards for your hard work? Yes, absolutley.

[pitohui]

32. you know what, we work hard too

if such incomes were purely the result of merit, it would be one thing, but the people who do the hard, necessary work of the world make less than anybody

you don't make a lot of money because you work hard, you make a lot of money because you got into the "right" field where such incomes were possible

there's just too much unfairness for me to care that a person w. $1 million in investable assets gets worried too

[saddemocrat]

35. Nobody said that

you don't work hard...AND I think it's outrageous how little skilled and unskilled workers in this country make...

However, I have the feeling that if you invested up to 200,000 in an education that you worked 7 years for and then gave up another 7 years of your life in a grueling training program making $4/hour that you might want a return on your investment.

CEO's should NOT be making 400 times the salaries of their workers. Minimum wage should be doubled...

That being said...don't punish us for going to school and investing so much time/sacrificing so much time with family unless you want the good people to leave the professions. There has to be some reward for investing so much money and time into an education.

[Beausoir]

38. Of COURSE you do. Whoever said you didn't? The point is...

we have all worked hard and we all deserve some respect for WHO we are rather than HOW MUCH we have.

And I absolutely DO resent the implication that somehow my husband "got lucky" to get into med school. HE had ZERO support from his family. GET IT??? ZERO! Not a penny. His family doesn't believe in higher education, so we did this completely on our own. He studied until he made him self sick with exhaustion. He worked graveyard shifts to pay for it until he found himself falling asleep on the toilet. All this..and he failed to get accepted the first year because he wasn't a "legacy". Did we quit? Fuck no. Work harder, sleep less and sacrifice more. For years upon years we did this. We put off having children until it was too late, put off trips home to see family, missed the last years of my beloved father's life because we had to live far away.

I refuse to apologize for what we have accomplished.
And I can goddamn guarantee that I don't have a million dollars in assets, but if I ever do, I will still be the same liberal Democrat and I will still refuse to apologize for who I am.

[saddemocrat]

45. What's sad is

That the democratic party in general, I think ends up losing part of it's base due to the attitude that people who 'have' should have to 'give' to support people who 'don't have'. My dad (Mr. Republican...gag) used to tell dh and I all of the time "someday you'll grow up and become Republicans" :grr: It used to infuriate me. He often complained about his own tax burden (he was a pilot for a big Airlines...He grew up in poverty and was the only one of his siblings to get a college education that he paid for by going to the military...everything he got he earned the hard way)and how his family members/friends now expected him to be so generous now that he had 'made it big'. In many ways, I understand what he was trying to say....Interestingly, his political views for the most part aren't far from mine: We need a social net, there should be some type of universal healthcare to cover those who are uninsured or underinsured, CEOs shouldn't be earning 400 times what their workers do, the environment should be a priority...blah, blah, blah" BUT where he parts ways with the democratic party is simply on the issues of taxes and how to finance these things. His thinking is "do not raise taxes on me...I pay enough" and quite frankly, I feel the same way. There is so much waste in our government and mismanagement of funds. I'm willing to pay my share...even a little more than my share....but not the huge amount we pay now...especially considering we likely won't see any of it returned to us in the form of medicare or social security!

Bush's Tax cuts, of course, did nothing for us...we don't fall into the category of being "that" wealthy and we likely never will. The alternative minimunm tax eats our lunch though every year. This year, we claimed only 1 of our children during the year so that more would be taken out in taxes...Whe it came time to file, after paying more in taxes than you would ever believe...thanks to the ATM, we owed another 9,000! If we had not been hit with the ATM, we would have gotten $5600 BACK.

[eyeontheprize]

78. Your father should be a very happy man

Republicans have realized their ambitions beyond their wildest dreams. They control the three branches of government, but they still blame the Democrats. Sweetheart, give it up. The Republicans don't care about you, if they did they'd make your lot in life even sweeter. It's a hoot that anyone who is not truly wealthy can hold out even a sliver of hope that the Republicans favor free enterprise. The triumph of faith over experience, I suppose.

[eyeontheprize]

72. No one asked for an apology

but you are certainly undeserving of sympathy, which seems to be what you crave.

You're lucky, enjoy it. You worked hard, but no harder than many others who will never reap the benefits of their labor that you will.

[kath]

83. jeebus - no one asked you or saddemocrat to "to feel ashamed because of wh

of who we are and how hard we have worked" (#31) nor is anyone trying to make either of you "feel guilty for working hard to find success" or "apologize for what we have accomplished".

And yes, both of your husbands were VERY lucky to be able to go to med school - not many have the intellectual endowment to be able to do so. The child born to a crack-addicted mother is very unlikely to ever be able to do so, etc. And *plenty* of us who do go to med school(me included) do so on our own, with no financial help from our parents, acquiring large amounts of debt which takes years and years to pay off. Plenty of us struggle through grueling years of med school and residency, more sleep-deprived than most people can even imagine. <on edit - and plenty of us during residency get frustrated with the poor people in clinic who don't get the kid's prescription filled but spend money on cigarettes or fancy handbags. Plenty of us put off having children. Plenty of people (my hubby included) put in years and years doing PhD. work and long, long post-docs. But not all of us feel that the above circumstances give us the right to become selfish.

I wonder if you give any $$ to charities that help the very poor - or do you ask, like saddemocrat, "WHY is it the RESPONSIBILITY of those who have worked hard to EARN a nice living to then turn around and GIVE money to others?"

(when I quoted this gem in my post #67, I left something out. I forgot the famous line of someone with similar sentiments:
(paraphrasing) "Let them die then, and reduce the surplus population".)

[Changenow]

88. We just don't understand how they

suffered for their wealth. How could we?

[saddemocrat]

156. Where do you draw the line?

I'm not selfish...I give a lot of my time...I also give money in a non-traditional sense. I don't run out and donate to a charity but I give locally when things happen. If someone is down on their luck and needs something (ie a family has a house fire) then I will go and buy things for their children, etc to donate...

But no...I don't run out anymore and donate to Katrina funds, save the whales funds etc. One of the reasons is that our phone is always ringing because some organization wants us to 'give'. The other is that I find that there is a lot of mismanagement of these funds.

You are right that not everyone has a life that allows them the ability to go to a professional school program that will earn them a good salary. It is one of the main reasons that I am a democrat and support the idea of healthcare insurance for everyone, a living wage, etc.....

But fyi...I didn't grow up with an 'ideal' life either...and I did make a place for myself. I am willing to reach out and help others to achieve success in their own lives...by tutoring for free (which I've done for years) and by helping people in ways that aren't always monetary.

There isn't anything selfish about that.

[pitohui]

91. well lack of sleep kills some of us

it killed my friend driving home from work

what do you want me to say? i don't think it's noble someone is working so many hours they fall asleep on the toilet

it could have been in a car

and instead of just taking out herself, it could have taken out an innocent person as well who never stood to gain a dime from all the hard work

my point is, society has to change and we should NOT be rewarding people for short sleep

because people who don't sleep are the same as drunks, they get in their car and they kill and the only reason some are rich and some are manslaughterers and some are dead is because some are lucky and some aren't

the good luck theory of morality

all those years your hubby was doing w.out sleep he was no different from any drunk on the road

he got lucky and now you are rewarded

fine but don't expect me to cheer

[saddemocrat]

158. All of those years...

He had no choice...and none of the doctors that you see do. They do it or they don't get to keep their jobs. They don't like it...they don't think it's good, but they are pretty powerless against a huge beuracratic system that will not allow them to 'unionize' or 'strike' or anything else that would be perceived by everyone as morally apprehensible.

He came home from working 38 hours slept and then slept for the entire next day...he will be the first to tell you that if he could do it again he would have chosen a different profession.

You don't know what you are talking about. Big surprise.

[mondo joe]

132. I don't begrudge you what you earned and invested in.

But I can see why you'd feel that some do.

[WCGreen]

43. I think you need a new accountant if you are paying

42% of your income in taxes......

[saddemocrat]

44. Three Words

Alternative Minimum Tax.

The 42% includes social security...I was just saying how much we pay out in general.

[eyeontheprize]

74. The very poor ,

who worry about the cost of a dozen eggs, also pay into social security.

Do you worry that your children may go hungry for a few days each pay period?

[kath]

85. and here in OKC, the very poor (as well as everyone else) have to pay

8.375% sales tax on that dozen eggs (and on every gallon of milk for their children, every loaf of bread, etc).

Conservatives (and selfish Dems, too, apparently), *love* regressive taxation like that. After all, it's a "FLAT" tax, so it's fair, right?

[eyeontheprize]

94. But they don't pay 42%!!!

in income taxes. They just don't know what it's like to go to college, med school, endure a residency and then work at a job with unparalleled prestige and pay. Those people just work like dogs, then die. If only they could know true suffering of the doctors they can't afford to see when they're sick, they'd then appreciate their own good fortune.

[saddemocrat]

161. flat tax

What is wrong with saying "every american should pay 15% of their gross income to the federal govt"....allow exemptions for lower income americans (but provide a living wage so that they have money to live from as well) and then having taxes on inheritance or high ticket items (say a porsche or something)

Taxing 8.375 on eggs is insane...

[pitohui]

93. guess what dude

i pay social security too, every working person does who earns more than $400 a year

do you know what percent paying social security tax is when you earn $6K a year

no pity here

you have more than everybody in this thread and still complain? get over yourself is the phrase that springs to mind

[stepnw1f]

115. THANK YOU

I'm struggling to survive and people complain they pay too much taxes. If only I were so fortunate, I'd be glad to pay my share.

[genieroze]

84. Are you counting your state income tax as well as real estate tax,

sales tax etc... along with SS and fed tax? If so 42% sounds about right. Living in NJ, which taxes you to breath, I hear ya. Even though my husband and myself don't make anything near a doctors salary we do make six figures and are taxed to death. I'm still paying for my daughters student loan and our insurance costs are through the roof. We have 9 years left on out mortgage. My husband works at Fort Monmouth, which thanks to * made the brac list. The article was deceptive as to what rich is. Gates is rich and I bet he doesn't give a rats behind about medical care.

[kath]

46. your MARGINAL tax rate may be 42% (so few people understand this concept)

but it is highly doubtful that 42% of your total income goes to federal taxes.

(and unless you have half a million or more in investments, the article cited doesn't apply to you and your family)

The flat tax hurts the poor more than the rich. Do you not believe in a progressive taxation scheme?? Doesn't sound too liberal to me.

(quiz question - how many here know the difference between progressive and regressive taxation schemes? Why are sales taxes - especially those on *groceries* (an abomination, IMHO)- so high in conservative states?)

We don't have much extra money either, but I feel compelled to give at least a few hundred a year to charities like Doctors Without Borders, Habitat for Humanity and the Carter Center. When the tsunami hit, I felt that I just had to give something, so we dug deep and gave a few hundred to CARE - we now donate to them each year too. We don't give to things like the universities we got degrees from - since our giving budget is limited, we feel like it should go to the *really* poor and destitute, and universities don't fit that criteria. It saddens me that Americans gave more for Sept. 11 victims (many of whom were quite wealthy) than they gave for the very very needy victims of the tsunami.
(It is admirable that you volunteer your time- hopefully it goes to help the really desperate)

[saddemocrat]

47. again

I said that the 42% includes what we pay in social security.

I part ways with the democrats when it comes to believing that people who earn more should pay a larger percentage of their income.

I believe we should have a minimum wage that is double what it is now and that there should be an across-the-board tax rate on income...I would lobby for an increased inheritance tax.

You know, I'd have much less of a problem paying as much as we do if we actually GOT something for the money. I think that college educations should be basically paid for by the govt for all students who meet admissions requirements (that, in my opinion should be a little more stringent than they currently are for some schools). If you get say a 3.0 or higher in high school taking college prep classes, you should go to college for free (or for a small fee) regardless of your parent's income. It is an investmetn in our future.

Universal healthcare should be available.

We should reduce military spending.

Quite frankly, I'm completely unwilling to pay any more in taxes and social security than I currently do to achieve this...I would move back to Germany in a heartbeat if having these things meant another increase. If my dh and I moved back to germany, we would be currently paying the same percentage of our income that we currently do on social security, state and federal taxes and would have all of the things that I outlined and more. Our govt. apparently sux at managing our money.

It's great that you gave after all of those things. I didn't. Sorry. If we hadn't owed another $9000 in federal taxes AGAIN at the end of the year...IF we could take off our mortgage interest or our children on our taxes...IF we didn't basically throw 42% of our total income at our federal govt, social security and our state govt the I would have given. If you want me to give more of my money to these causes, then uncle sam will need to take less ... period. We gave to FEMA, in essence and they pretty much screwed everyone over....

I won't apologize for that either. When you pay such a large perentage of your income, come and talk to me.

Also...how do you see fit to nominate people like Kerry or Edwards etc who are dripping in money and who avoid paying a lot of their taxes through all of their investments, etc... To be true to the democratic (liberal) values then the dems need to start nominating their perception of the 'average joe' worker.

To win elections though, the dems need to start appreciating that they also need people in the party who are working professionals that pay a lot more in taxes...who don't want tax increases but who still stand for liberal, democratic values.

It's easy to spend someone else's money.

[kath]

50. with SS, your MARGINAL rate may be 42%, but still doubt that 42% of your

TOTAL income goes to Federal taxes (income tax + SS + Medicare) Also, your hubby at least likely has income above the Social Security cap - SS is NOT paid on any income above around 90 or 100K currently.

So the poor person working two or three minimum wage jobs should pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as someone living in a McMansion and driving a Mercedes? Jeebus.

Totally agree with you that we get little in return for our taxes - WAY too much goes to the Military Industrial Complex (AKA War Profiteers) Most Yurpeens pay a high percentage of their income to taxes, but in exchange for that they get Universal Healthcare, lengthy parental leave, and other perks. They have very little poverty in the Scandivinian countries and some others - a much higher quality of life and overall standard of living than we have here.

Living as I do in a warm dry house, with two (old) autos and enough food to eat, I'd feel terribly guilty not giving something to the destitute. Yes, we could be putting more money away for our retirement or saving for college, but I feel that the people served by Doctors Without Borders, CARE, etc need that money far more than we do. We are not starving, sick, or homeless. We are far, far better off than the *vast* majority of people on this planet. When I look at the Doctors Without Borders mailings and see the pictures of people dying of starvation, it brings tears to my eyes and a huge lump to my throat...

[saddemocrat]

57. You're wrong....

The total expenditures that we pay out for federal taxes, social security taxes and state taxes ARE 42% of our income...We do not pay social security for the entire year...we max out part-way through the year.

Again...it sux that there are poor people working 3 minimum wage jobs...again...I've said that minimum wage should be raised and universal healthcare is a MUST. That being said...I would encourage anyone to get a better education so that they can pull themselves out of their 3 minimum wage job AND I'd be willing to have govt. programs help to make that possible for people.

BTW...we lived in Germany for years and paid the same percentage of our salary out that we do now...and had more for the money.

Americans though (of all income levels, btw) would never accept the 'cuts' that would be required to live in a system like that. Regarding healthcare: I had govt. insurance there...there are no private rooms (no big deal to me), no towels in the hospitals (you bring them from home), no mri's for every headache (again, it's not always indicated) and no keeping people alive ala Terry Schiavo (here the religious right cry in their boots)...There are also no transplants for people over 60, no ICU care for 80 year olds...people are allowed to die and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars are not wasted in the last weeks of someone's life. There are many people here that would not be comfortable with those concessions. You might have to wait a couple of hours in your doctor's waiting room...

AND

The biggeee....EVERYONE pays. Having a lower income doesn't mean that you pay taxes and then get it back at the end of the year like I did...You PAY your healthcare premium and taxes like everyone else. When I lived over there I worked the McDonald's drive-thru.....That's how I paid the bills...I earned ~$14/hour there and about $9.25 after taxes etc.....and I couldn't file taxes at the end of the year and get that money back despite the fact that I had a 'low income' job there. Granted, it's much higher than a McDonald's employee here...of course, it's also much more expensive to live over there because they don't hire illegal aliens to work and drive down wages/prices. Wal-Mart gave it a go in europe but wasn't very successful. Europeans like quality, not quantity.

I feel sad for poor people too...I feel sad for starving people too....

[kath]

65. in your first post, you said that you paid out 42% NOT including state tax

It's almost impossible to pay out 42% of your total GROSS income. (TAXABLE income is generally considerably less, because you subract out personal exemptions for self, spouse and dependent; the standard or itemized deductions; possibly the child tax credit; plus other things)
Marginal tax rates for AMT are 26 and 28%. Capital gains are at only 15%, *part* of these may be taxed at the 26 or 28% AMT rate)

highest Marginal income tax rate in MN is 7.85%, and that's only on TAXABLE income (NOT gross income) over $119,100 for married filing jointly. The rate on the first $29,900 of TAXABLE income is 5.35%, then the rate on taxable income between 29,900 and 119,100 is 7.05%

Social Security rate is 6.2%, but that's only on the first 90,000 of WAGES per person (not on capital gains, interest, etc) So the most you'd pay is $5580 per wage earner. (if wages of the one earner are 200K, that's only 2.8% of that wage income.

Medicare tax is 1.45%, on all WAGE income.

Federal tax rates for marrried filig jointly, on TAXABLE income for 2005 are:
10% on the amount between 0 and 14,600, ie on the FIRST 14600.
15% on the amount between $14600 and 59,400. (or on the NEXT 44,800).
25% on the amount between 59,400 and 119,950 (or on the next 65350 after tax has been paid on the above at the 10%, then the 15% rate).
28% on the amount between 119950 and 182800.
33% on the amount between $182,800 and %326,450.
35% on the amount OVER 326,500.

SO, a couple with a TAXABLE (not gross) income of $327000 pays $89712.50 in fed income taxes -- they are in the 35% tax bracket, but they actually pay only 27.4% of their TAXABLE income in income tax. (assuming no capital gains - if there was capital gains, taxed at 15% or perhaps partially at 26 or 28% for AMT, the overall percentage would be less.

[eyeontheprize]

75. Wow. We just finished our taxes,

but if we were just starting that mission I'd hire you. Turbo Tax has nothing on you!

She won't be back, thanks.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Most doctors are self-employed

Social security tax would be 7.65% times two or 15.3% on the first $90k of income - about an 8.4% total tax rate for the example you provided above.

Not really disagreeing with the basic point - few people understand the difference between marginal rate and total tax rate, and republicans have used this confusion to eliminate taxes on wealth and call it middle class tax relief.

[kath]

100. True - I realized that, but didn't want to make my post more complicated

than it already was by giving too many different scenarios. (and actually, since 1/2 of self-employment tax is subtracted from gross income as an "adjustment", the effective total rate is quite a bit less than 15.3%- I've done the calculation in the past when I was self-employed, but it's too late to do it now) Kinda meant it as a "Taxation 101" tutorial.
:-)

It is amazing to me how few people (even ones with lots of edumacation) understand the concept of marginal tax rate - it's really not that hard. (Also seems a shame that people with fairly basic tax situations feel too intimidated to do their own taxes, and end up paying fairly big bucks to H & R Block,etc.)
It should be included in a high school (or even junior high) course on "Consumer Math and Basic Statistics", along with such things as compounding of interest, difference between mean and median, normal distribution, standard error, etc.

[saddemocrat]

155. well..

I'm telling you that with with social security, federal taxes and state taxes it is exactly what we pay. Thanks for the numbers..it was all very interesting...unfortunately, we paid a shitload more than what you say that we should have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. People are allowed to die here too

Care IS rationed in this country, but it's rationed on the basis if financial wherewithal and not medical need.

[area51]

114. Well said, lumberjack_jeff.

We are a 3rd world country masquerading as a 1st world country. It's inhuman to allow people to die who need medical care. If our nazi govt. didn't steal our tax dollars & throw them at the military, we'd have universal healthcare.

[The Flaming Red Head]

134. Watched two friends die because of lack of care/insurance

one was a nurse. You're right. I pretty much know that if I get sick I'll die without adequate care/insurance. Do you know in Arkansas they won't give SSI or Medicaid to people with HIV or Hep C or B (Christian right inspired/ they call it morals). My nurse friend contracted Hepatitis on the job, but years down the road when the shit hit the fan they refused to help her and she died at 39 and left a young daughter motherless for lack of a transplant.

[lastliberalintexas]

107. Why exclude UNEARNED income?

You keep pointing out that we should have a flat tax on earned income and even that inheritance taxes should be increased, yet you completely ignore unearned income. You do realize that a tax based solely on wages and salaries would be the elite's dream, right? People like George Bush and Paris Hilton do not typically have much earned income compared to their investments, so they would likely pay a lower marginal rate than you and I. That's not exactly a tax structure any progressive should like. Next you'll tell us you want a national sales tax.


And doctors are not the only ones who work hard in this country, nor even the only ones who put in many years of school. Most teachers in the US have MASTERS' degrees these days, yet they make about 1/5th that of a doctor with equivalent experience. Oh, and *newsflash* teachers probably have student loans to pay off too. (and this could be said of any number of professions these days for which escalating college degrees are deemed required)

I'm not a teacher, but I am in a profession which requires a great deal of education as well. I know that I am lucky that I am intelligent enough to have received a full scholarship to both college and graduate school. I also know that I am lucky to have received those monies, since I'm certain there were people with better grades (but lower SATs) who did not receive as much financial aid. I know that I am lucky I had parents who valued education and who stayed involved in my life. I know that I am lucky that I had teachers who pushed, prodded and guided me for those first 13 years of my education. I also know that I am lucky to have had a loving, stable and secure family life which enabled me to not only dream, but also pursue those dreams. I also know that I am lucky that I didn't have to work 40 hours a week while also going to high school to support my siblings, as some kids at my school did. I also know that I am lucky that I didn't have to drop out of high school due to parental pressure to do so, as some kids I knew did so that they could go to work at the plants.

Gee, looking back on it, I guess I really did get everything I have through "hard work". :eyes:


People who think that they are self made have no idea how many people held up the ladder for them to climb higher. And people who think that everyone has the same opportunity in this country are those who were born on first base.

[kath]

116. great post, llit.

Now could you go after the "personal responsibility" crap spewed here by the same one or two posters? - I didn't have the energy to do it last night. That phrase is often a way (in Freeperese) to blame the poor for being poor.

[jberryhill]

151. This relatively well-compensated professional disagrees

I part ways with the democrats when it comes to believing that people who earn more should pay a larger percentage of their income.

I have a couple of things to pick on over that point.

First, Social Security is a regressive tax. The more you make over $89.5K, then the LOWER a percentage of your income it is. That makes zero sense to me, and I'm fairly well north of that line.

Second, I deferred a lot of things in life too. I have a Ph.d. in electrical engineering, a J.D., and am a self-employed attorney.

Those institutions at which I was educated, and at which your husband was educated, enjoy SUBSTANTIAL public support. On top of the tuition paid with student loans, the citizens of your community support those institutions through public funding with the understanding that those educated there will serve more than their own interests. That support may be direct public funding, public research grants, etc.

Third, progressive income tax shouldn't be so hard to understand. There are basic fixed costs of living, and having 60% of 200,000 is a hell of a lot nicer than 90% of 20,000, no matter how you slice it. No matter how "fair" you try to make things, some people will have talent and opportunity to benefit in greater proportion, and justifiably so, than others from the institutions of our society, and I see nothing unfair in having those - including me - share in proportion to the degree they have benefitted.

Fourth, always remember that if you can put food on your table, a roof over your head, and clothes on your back, then everything else - anything else - is merely a bonus. There are people who work very hard, and yet can't do these things. Something is broken in that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Wealth and income are two different things.

Those who have lots of wealth receive their income through dividends and capital gains, the taxation for both of which (unlike the taxes on wages) have been slashed dramatically.

A doctor making a big income is still a wage-earner. Wage-earners taxes have not been cut, in fact the burden has been displaced from corporations and unearned income onto workers at all income levels.

That said, frankly my primary sympathy rests with those who have neither wealth nor income, who cannot afford your peers services even though their lives depend on it.

Likewise, "deserving" and "opportunistic/wise/prudent" should not be confused. Shaun Alexander just signed a contract with the Seahawks for $62 million. It's certainly opportunistic/wise/prudent to take the paycheck but "deserving" is something of a stretch.

[oblivious]

128. You pay over 42% to the govt and don't even get medicare?

Now that's just plain abusive. There's just no way Americans should put up with that.

[RedEarth]

18. Costs of health care is the worry of everyone......

I guess the light just came on for these morons.

[saddemocrat]

29. I AGREE

Hating to bring my dad into this again...but...he just retired and now he's starting to realize how important some of these issues are. Interestingly, he's always been against people 'sucking off the system' and yet here he is applying for all kinds of weird military benefits, etc....He wants to pay nothing too..but he isn't willing to extend that same service to his son...who..has some mental health issues and never is able to keep a job longer than a few months. My brother has really struggled his whole life and basically would be homeless if it weren't for my mom. He lives in TX, where the only people who get 'free' healthcare are illegal immigrants...Oh...I'm sorry...undocument workers :eyes: . So..he's unable to even get help for his mental health issues to be able to possibly become more stable and hold down a job with benefits.

It's infuriating really!

[eyeontheprize]

80. You live in an alternative reality,

sponsored by Fox "News" if you think the illegals get free health care. If they show up in an ER in late labor, those fucking liberals demand that the baby be delivered safely (the same treatment is given to legal laggards). Ditto the problem if they are injured by some equipment while doing a job "no American will do" and are critically injured and go to the ER.

On the other hand, if the woman who cleans the floors at your kids' school has breast cancer it will be an open weeping wound and no Christian will give a God Damn about it.

Grow up.

[saddemocrat]

159. You're wrong

Plain and simple.

The illegals DO get free healthcare and ... you are also correct that if an uninsured american gets cancer that many people 'wouldn't care'...but...the hospital here (a Catholic one, btw) would provide that individual with healthcare...it may or may not be free but they would get it. They could also go to one of the State hospitals here and get free care.

BUT...that's not the point. People without healthcare insurance are less healthy in general. Not having health insurance negatively impacts overall health because patients don't go in for routine care and often do not seek out treatment until much later in the development of an illness.

Every american should have the security of knowing that if they are sick they can get treatment...every american should be able to go in for a check-up each year.

[Bridget Burke]

105. People DO get free healthcare in Texas...

Not as many as ought to, of course. But it's much harder for "illegal immigrants."

The uninsured who do not qualify for the free healthcare end up spending far too much. Even the insured have found their co-pays have gone up & choices have decreased.

Perhaps your brother ought to go & live with you, since you're doing so well.

[saddemocrat]

160. My brother

can't get free healthcare in TX despite having a desperate need for it....but we know many illegals who HAVE gotten free healthcare in the same city.

[jwirr]

21. What this says to me is that even the wealthy do not approve of

*ss's destruction of the safety net at least as far as it effects them.

[corporatemedia]

25. 75% SOLUTION : Send the RepugRich on a hunting trip with Cheney. n/t

[VegasWolf]

26. Republicans for free health care for the wealthy!! nt

[saddemocrat]

28. What I see from my dad...

A card carrying bank-roller of swift boat veterans for truth :o (the shame, the shame!) is that he feels that he has paid so much in taxes that he is deserving. I can sort of understand that sentiment in a way...but...I happen to feel that healthcare is a 'right' that should be provided to all hard-working americans. I'm not sure how I feel about the chronic abusers of the system.

I do have some reservations based on some of the things I've witnessed over the years. I do believe there has to be some personal responsibility in there...

I lived in Germany for years and I had a low-income job. I got govt. insurance and paid a small premium every month. It was directly taken from my check and it gave me a sense of security...AND...I wasn't getting something for nothing. My employer also paid a small amount.

My husband had private insurance at the time and he paid a higher premium as did his employer.

Differences in care?

DH was able to see the 'head of the dept.' for procedures and would have gotten a private room if hospitalized.

I saw the regular docs and when I had my son was in a room with 3 other women.

Quality of care....good....I also got same-day appointments and was never made to feel like my insurance was something to be ashamed of. It was a completely acceptable alternative because...I paid a small portion of my paycheck each month to get it...

I think something similar can and should be instituted over here. I'm opposed to the Canadian and British healthcare systmes because of my experience living in the UK. DH was called to many emergencies where they didn't have the medicines needed (and yes, people died!) because of budget problems and the waiting lists were sometimes a huge problem. I remember him fighting despertaely to get a scan for a young person suspected of having brain cancer. It was worse than any insurance battle here to get through the beuracracy.

There are good and bad parts of all systems and we need to find a good middle ground.

I'm so off topic here.

[Changenow]

87. You're priceless

You actually think the medicines are available to patients in the USA?

In New Orleans bones aren't even set, if the patient is SOL if she can't afford to travel. We live in the Third World, thanks to your president.

[pitohui]

95. the situation in new orleans is distressful

we at least used to have the best trauma treatment in the world if nothing else and now katrina has even taken that away

i would never tell a poor person who can't afford insurance to come back here, our public hospital system has been completely wiped away

i recently met a doctor, a wealthy woman, at the airport, who had trained at charity, and she didn't have a clue, didn't even know what had happened and that the hospital was gone

maybe no one knows unless you are here

more important to report abt missing blondes and pam anderson is upset some seals got hunted

[saddemocrat]

157. my president?

I didn't vote for him you idiot.

[raccoon]

146. Such as???

"I'm not sure how I feel about the chronic abusers of the system."

[SoCalDem]

36. Welcome to the New USA.

Work your whole life, plan ahead, save, and amass a "decent" supply of moolah for your old age. and...

then you can "Transfer" it to "Big Pharma-Big Hospital Corps"..


Even the people who "made it", have no guarantee of keeping any of it as long as medical care costs are not stabilized.

There are lots of passive-aggressive people in that mix (some people made their money from the misfortunes of others, and they did it happily), so watch for lots of profligate spending-down of some richie-rich types so they can at least get the benefit of what they have amassed. These folks don't like handing over their assets to anyone..

Rich folks have always found and used convenient loopholes to get undeserved financial aid from our tax money...why would they stop now?

[killbotfactory]

37. It's also a top concern for the poor

As anyone who's been in low paying job with no benefits would know.

But who cares about them? Poor people are poor because they deserve it.

[saddemocrat]

49. No

There is no excuse in a country that thinks it is this 'great' for there to be uninsured americans...especially not if they are working to try and make a living for themselves. There is also no reason to keep minimum wage so low...We need to also be enforcing the illegal alien laws so that salaries don't continue to be depressed.

As I see it, minimum wage should double and everyone with a job should have at least the minimum in health insurance benefits...

Most people who are poor do not want that for themselves, but they get trapped. Some people though do choose to stay where they are at....but I think it's the minority.

In this country, there are also people who are poor because they struggle with mental or physical illness, don't have a strong enough educational background to move up, etc. They are unable to get help for their illness because they have no insurance (or the help they get is crap). In addition, our schools are doing such a crappy job (especially in areas where the schools are underfunded) that many of our kids who do finish highschool are unprepared for the rigors of college...many collegs have had to lower standards.

I taught college biology for several years and some of my students couldn't even multiply without a calculator...In college! Yipes! And those are the kids who were admitted.

But..who here will stand up and demand that teachers pass tougher certification exams? Who will demand that all high school teachers have at least a Master's degree in the subject that they are teaching? Not many...but I would...because I've traveled that road myself.

It's funny...I was able to teach at the college level with my MS in Mol. biology, but in order to teach at the high school level here, I'd have to go back and take 2 years of classes to get my education degree. I taught for years and was an effective, good teacher...I didn't start out that way, but I gradually improved and I really worked on becoming good as an instructor. At the high school level though, it's more important to have an education degree and less courses in the major field of study you will be teaching.

It's not a PC point of view though to suggest that teachers must improve their academic qualifications.

My son's 1st grade teacher has a BA in elementary education and she earns 45,000k/ year for working 5 days a week, having weekends and summers off. I sometimes think I should have done that too....That's not a bad salary.

I have a master's degree and earned 1/2 that when I was working.

[Changenow]

81. God help you. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

108. So go back to work.

Sure, teachers ought to be encouraged to continue their education. And they ought to get salaries commensurate with their education--but that's not the only thing that counts. Most teachers I've known took work home in the evening & often on weekends. Not to mention working with extracurricular activities.

[mconvente]

39. This is sort of off topic, but...

All the "rich haters" here - if you got a ton of money (ie - few hundred thousand to millions - whatever you deem "rich") - what would you do with it? Would you give it all away or save some for yourselves? Personally, I would live comfortably, but I would make sure most of it goes to good charities to helping people less fortunate than myself. Yes, a lot of rich people are assholes, but there are good rich people (John Kerry anyone??)

[saddemocrat]

48. We

used to say the exact same thing....

Things change when you start earning more money after working so hard to get it. It's not a crime to want to live in a house where each of your children get their own bedroom, or to want to drive a nice car.

One of the things that change our perception was my dh's work with the free health clinic. We had no health insurance and couldn't afford dental care for our son, but my dh was working 80-100 hours a week to treat the 'poor'...who got free care. We had to simply choose to either get no care or to pay through the nose. He saw the same patients week after week coming back for their antibiotics for their STDs...again and again he would say "you must use protection....you could get HIV, cause pregnancy, etc etc". The response? "Shut up and give me my antibiotics". He eventually got in trouble for sitting down one of the repeat offenders and saying "look...do not come back to me next time you get this. I won't continue to treat you week after week for the same problem when you refuse to take care of yourself". We both started feelign resentful about how hard we were working and how we couldn't get healthcare, etc.

And as to the New Orleans stuff....My brother went down there to work and do the clean-up..... At the time that he started, the company that he was working for tried to start a program where people from New Orleans who were unemployed at the time of the hurricane could come to work for them...they were given housing, etc. Many refused and a large percentage of those who stayed on ended up being fired within the first week for refusing to work. My brother (also a liberal democrat) was outraged at it...He came all the way from TX to help and saw people from New Orleans who had been jobless who were given an opportunity to work who refused....It made him mad. Of course, eventually the govt. shut out people like my brother who were making more than minimum wage and hired illegals to do the work for pennies to the dollar. Big Surprise that our govt who is trying sooo hard to take care of this sticky little border problem was hiring illegals to do the work that Americans were, indeed willing to do.

Personal responsibility though among the poor is also important....however, I'd add that free job retraining, affordable/quality childcare etc are also things that must be provided so that they have a chance to make a better life for themselves.

[kath]

52. What the heck is wrong with kids sharing a bedroom?

So with 5 kids you need to spend money on a 6-bedroom house and can't afford to give to the starving and homeless?

And what's with using quotation marks around the word "poor" when discussing those who qualify for the free health clinic????

[saddemocrat]

56. nothing

We don't have a 6 bedroom house actually....but...quite frankly, it's MY money. If I want to buy a 10 bedroom house to give each of our animals their own room to, why would you have anything to say about it? I give plenty of money in tax dollars that go towards medicaid, social security and govt. programs to help the poor. I volunteer my TIME (not my money) with the poor and...my husband treats many people who have no health insurance for free without sending out a bill that would likely cause them just more financial problems.

If we can work our way up from the bottom, so can many other people...

I'm also not referring to the starving and the homeless when I use quotations marks.

Also, I think that if you can afford cigarettes you can afford to pay $5 for a contribution towards your antibiotic prescription....and..I'm an ex-smoker, so I'm not speaking out my behind.

We all make choices. I'm more than willing to help those who are struggling...but I won't continue to bankroll this broken system. I've outline some of the things that I think need to be changed to HELP the poor, the struggling middle class, etc.

Again...don't expect us to give out 42% of our paycheck and then hand over more money...

When you are having 42% pulled out, let me hear from you. It is absolutely my right to do with my money what I want...My husband and I have worked hard for it and we should be able to spend some on ourselves....WHY is it the RESPONSIBILITY of those who have worked hard to EARN a nice living to then turn around and GIVE money to others?

Morally...we do what we can...and I feel that my giving of my time is more valuable than any monetary giving that likely will be sucked up in administrative costs and mismanaged anyway.

[kath]

67. WHY is it the RESPONSIBILITY of those who have worked hard to EARN a nice

living to then turn around and GIVE money to others?


Just had to see that again...

[saddemocrat]

68. ummm

:eyes:

[cap]

89. it's the real Christian thing to do

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Nobless oblige

Those who attain large wealth do it using the infrastructure that we've all paid into. My tax money goes to pay for a college that I could not attend.

[winston61]

106. It isn't-

But let me ask you- are you a Christian? Do you believe in the social contract? You work hard for your money, no doubt, but so do those who earn far less than you. Do you agree with the stratification of society that the right wing advocates? Just rich and poor, that's the goal. Greed is a disease that like cancer, eats you up before you know you have it.

[kath]

118. Winston, I left the sarcasm icon out of my post - I was quoting

saddemocrat, because I found the sentence so breathtakingly awful. (and she said "Ummm" and rolled her eyes in response)
(and in a later post, I added a familiar similar quote, by the infamous E. Scrooge.)

[Bridget Burke]

112. Gosh, you volunteer a few days a week!

How special. Your husband may still work hard, but you apparently don't. But I'm glad that you both worked your way up from living on the streets & being too hungry to concentrate in school.

(I join with others on this thread in wondering why you don't get a new accountant.)

[mondo joe]

141. I'll tell you where I have problems with some of what

you've said.

But first I'll say I agree with a lot.

I do think wisely invested your resources and are entitled to the benefit of your return. I also think there is unfair and unjust resentment.

In short, I am pro-choice, and about more than abortion. People make personal choices, and I believe the rights and responsibilities for those choices should be commensurate.

All that said, I don't think "I pay a lot of taxes so I don't give to charities" is a logical or necessary conclusion. It's fine with me if that's how you feel - but it's not a position I'd endorse.

You have indeed made choices, you are not helpless before them. Would a somewhat smaller house leave you able to give $5,000 a year to a non profit that supports a cause you believe in? Yes. And you are entitled to that choice - but not entitled to universal approval for it.

Lastly, in another post (as I recall) you referenced your husband's work in a "free" clinic, that left me thinking his heart was really not in the right place. It takes a special breed of physician to work in community health or other providers to the under served. If you resent your patients, you are assuredly not working in the right place for you.

In all it sounds like your family is somewhat conflicted.

[union_maid]

54. Single payer system

This is what's wrong with means testing. It always leaves out a vast number of people who are unable to pay for services. People who have not quite enough money to pay for themselve are resentful that people who haven't got any money at all get services - when they get them. A single payer system and progressive taxation puts an end to these inequities. And there's no way it could cost much more than the crazy, inefficient system we have now. Then the rich wouldn't have to worry their heads over it either.

[raccoon]

147. "free job retraining" --for WHAT? nt

[Brigid]

40. Health Care

Maybe now that the rich are starting to get concerned about the state of the health care system in this country, we will at last start doing something about it. Single-payer system like everybody else, anyone?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. They weren't worried about the rest of us, were they? Screw 'em.

[Kablooie]

55. I consider myself rich ...

because I have my friends and my health.

Ha! Isn't that rich?

[Rex]

59. Only the wealthy have the power to give us all health care coverage.

We the people don't count anymore; we are just a credit rating number. Please wealthy people, someone is dying right now of malnutrition or unhealthy living conditions here in America.

[stepnw1f]

63. And That is a Myth We Need to Break

I say break, because we need to break this vicious cycle where we play there game on their terms. We need to demand Universal Healthcare or we will have a revolution.

[OzarkDem]

64. Wake up, Dems

Health care is a natural issue for the Dems, one the public trusts them to solve.

Yet we're still nibbling at the edges of the solution and don't have a set of principles or consistent message.

Dean has had the best approach so far, and other Dem elected officials would be wise to follow his lead.

Everyone cares about this issue and will support any candidate or group of candidates who is willing to take it on.

[ldf]

66. here's a novel concept..

americans who are truly considered to be rich, not the incomes of a few hundred thousand (which it seems MOST people could live off, but that is another thread),

but people that truly fit the definition of RICH, need to understand a couple of basic facts.

first, since they have been the recipients of the largesse of the american people, let them (the rich) realize that the social security they have been paying into is not theirs, but is a social safety net for ALL americans to be able to afford the basics while in their later years.

THEY do not qualify, therefore should not expect to be a recipient of social security.

second, since they ARE of means, they can continue to pay their insurance premiums, and their own insurance company can pay anything not covered by the copay. medicare, medicaid is NOT theirs to claim.

lets just say they are finally giving BACK to the people who have made them rich to start with.

therefore, social security, medicare, medicaid would require an income means test. income would me ALL forms of income, be it wages, dividends, capital gains, s corporations, ANY income.

i would be too ashamed to go to sign up for those benefits when i didn't need it. it is just another example of people taking advantage of programs that are meant to help the needy, yet continually drained by those who don't need it because "i paid into it, its mine, and i am going to get it back".

that is out and out GREED.

it just reminds me of another "benefit program" set up for one group, but has been practically taken over by those it wasn't set up for... domestic partnership.

at the school where i work, maybe 5% using it are same sex couples. the huge majority taking advantage of it are straight.

:grr:

[saddemocrat]

69. no offense

And I'll never be counted as someone that rich ..but...let me just say :wtf:

"Let them (the rich) realize that the social security they have been paying into is not theirs, but is a social safety net for ALL americans to be able to afford the basics while in their later years.

THEY do not qualify, therefore should not expect to be a recipient of social security."

So....you're telling them that they don't qualify to get any of the money that they paid into these programs? That's...really outrageous. YOU and I are entitled to THEIR money and THEY aren't? Now..THAT's Rich!

I am as disgusted with corporate whores who rake in the multimillion dollar salaries as you are...I abhor the healthcare CEOs who are busy turning down claims left and right while they sit in their mansions..but I think we should take some other sort of action right now to limit their salaries.

I would never, ever say that I was entitled to someone else's money no matter how hard off I was. I may not like how someone earned it...but I don't have a sense of entitlement.

kris

[eyeontheprize]

76. That morality problem

A moral duty to provide for the least of our brothers clearly doesn't keep you up at night, but their germs should have you pacing with insomnia.

There are God awful germs going around that will cause equal opportunity infections. When they threaten you it could be you'll then realize that our "Christian" responsibilities are actually selfish after all.

[pitohui]

98. means testing will kill social security

you must be v. young

older people already have the experience of how, once the rich and middle class withdrew from the public schools, the schools were no longer funded

you allow the rich, who OWN the political apparatus, to withdraw from social security -- and there will be no more social security

means testing is the bright white line, we must fight it with our lives, because if we allow means testing, no one here who is not posting on a public computer will get any social security and i for one have paid in for three decades now, so it would be stealing from me

means testing is theft

i paid for this, i put in my tax dollar, if you bought a CD and then 20 years later you were means tested and told you were too rich to take your money out of the CD, you'd be mad

same thing, dude

means testing is theft

[Bridget Burke]

109. Yes. Social security is not "welfare"....

The ceiling should be raised so those who earn more money contribute more. But they should still receive their share.

Other social programs should care for those who have less money. Some need help to get themselves through a tough time. And a few people will NOT be able to work, unfortunately.

[ldf]

122. excuse me?

i didn't say a thing about the rich opting out of paying, i meant use a means test to see if they warrant RECEIVING IT.

social security is paid in your entire life. before AND after you get "rich".

there would be no means test to paying in, but to TAKE OUT. geez, i obviously didn't explain myself well.

but again, it is a safety net for THOSE WHO NEED IT!

what is outrageous is those who don't need a damn penny of it, yet taking every month, while others who need it desperately may not get any because the whole damn system went broke.

but apparently that is FINE, as long as the greedy rich bastards get their share.

the rest of us buy the products and services that made them rich. you know the "largess of the american people" comment?

and if they are trust fund babies, they sure as HELL don't need to be soaking up social security benefits.

did i make my views a little more clear? i think most understood the point i was trying to make.

[jberryhill]

152. Social Security is NOT comparable to a CD

Sorry, but what's paid out in SS is funded by what's paid in on a current basis. I realize it hasn't been sold that way but, get real - collecting a check you don't need when your mortgage is paid off and your investments worked out, when that check is being paid for by struggling young 20-somethings trying to get their own lives going IS THEFT.

I just can't imagine the mindset of someone for whom life worked out well, and are perfectly able to deal with their situation, who would begrudge not getting a check they don't need.

The notion of, say, Ted Turner collecting his monthly SS check - or even caring if it shows up - is just obscene.

If things work out well in your retirement, at least have the good sense to donate that SS check to charity, as many people who do not need it do.

I'll add to my four points listed above...

Fifth, leave large tips - 25% MINIMUM.

[lovuian]

73. Universal means for Everybody...

Being rich is such a mirage

Todays rich maybe tommorrows poor
Ask the Billionaire in Russian jail

how rich does he feel...or the poor guy winning the lottery

Time has a way of changing things

thats why Universal health is fair... It works in Britain Canada China Russia Sweden and Europe

we are the only screwy system...

[Proud Liberal Dem]

77. But there is NO Healthcare "CRISIS!"

I never thought that we'd come to a point in this country where the WEALTHY are actually worrying about the ("we've-got-the-best-in-the-world) healthcare system in this country. Of course, the Democrats, and Bill & Hillary Clinton, TRIED to do something about reforming healthcare and Bill & Hillary were all but "rode out of town on a rail" and the Democrats were roundly punished electorally and driven into the minority(where they still are today) in 1994 largely as result of their attempts to....well, help improve the healthcare of the citizens of this country. Of course, THE WEALTHY among us along with their conspirators in the GOP were able to create a massive groundswell of opposition to the healthcare reform plan, largely by capitalizing on public's distrust of "big government(if they only knew then :eyes: )" and, amazingly, convincing the public that there was no "healthcare crisis." Of course, they didn't bother to try to negotiate with Clinton and the Democrats nor did they propose any plans of their own but in the end, as we all know, NOTHING happened then and nothing has happened since then.....and, of course, the situation has only gotten worse, largely BECAUSE of the WEALTHY among us. I truly believe that Michael Moore was right in his book, "Stupid White Men," when he pointed out that the wealthy and the ruling elite tend not to recognize the importance of government dealing with certain things until they themselves are forced to deal with it, which seems to be happening (to SOME degree) in this article. I can only hope that it might lead some of THEM to reconsider their enthusiastic support for Bush/GOP and their opposition to some kind of universal healthcare reform but we shall have to just wait and see. I'm not holding my breath.....yet. And just for the record, for those wealthy persons among us, I am not attempting to lump you or anybody else who really does care about helping people in with some of the less "concerned" wealthy citizens in our country.

[winston61]

82. I say, 'Eat the Rich'!

What are they bitching about, they are the ones who pull the lever for the Republicans. And now the chickens are coming home to roost. Too fucking bad.

[bleedingheart]

102. read the article...what it is calling "rich" isn't really rich but

the upper tier of the middle class.

people who make $150K per year and have more than $500,000 in cashable assets.....while this is much more than some...it is far less than rich....$500K in assets can easily be sucked dry by medical emergencies like cancer treatment...etc

What I call rich are those will millions in assets...because they are untouchable by catastrophe unless of their own making.

[winston61]

103. sorry, no sale-

If they pull the lever for Repukes, they got no right to bitch. They need to wake and relaize they are in the cross hairs just like the rest of us.

[Bridget Burke]

111. Their bitching means they ARE waking up!

Those surveyed are NOT all truly "rich." Most are not the grown up trust-fundies who never worked in their lives--or worked very little.

Some worked hard, had a bit of luck* & are now doing quite well. But they know that one catastrophic illness could wipe them out. And they have looked into the costs of really good long-term care. We need them on our side. Perhaps, next time, they will vote Democratic. (Although, even in Texas, not ALL Democrats are poor or lower middle class.)


* Because many others work hard & aren't even close to being rich.

[bleedingheart]

120. not all people in that income range vote for republicans...

it is a big mistake to assume that people who earn in excess of six figures vote republican only...

[winston61]

125. I make no such presumption-

Perhaps I've just contaminated by living in Texas for so long, God, what a fucked up place.

[Bridget Burke]

133. I've lived in Texas since 1953...

And I don't share your views.

In Texas, you may need to fight for your beliefs. The weak-minded are better off where everybody thinks just like they do.

[mondo joe]

131. What does their income have to do with voting repuke?

[BiggJawn]

119. If 150 Kilobucks is "middle class"...Then WHAT am *I*?

Somebody with half a megabuck in assets, compared to the $170 I have in the credit union?

150 kilobucks a year. Yep, that's "much more" than ME, that's for certain.

They'll pass for Rich until we can get Massah Gates to drop by.

[killbotfactory]

126. Republicans consider everyone who has cable "rich"

Usually everytime they want to bash the poor as lazy whiners.

[BiggJawn]

127. Well, that confims it, then.

"Larry the Cable Guy" hasn't "Gutterdone" around MY crib.

[superconnected]

135. I'll stick with stanley and dankes definition of "rich"

which is 1 million net worth and comprises 3 percent of the US population.

Your definition of "rich" would cover a very small percentage of the 3%. Even though people exist with multi-millions and even billions, they are such a tiny fraction of population that they would be considered "mega-rich".

-------------

My person opinion is(which is a lot different than most financial books), is someone that can buy a 3bdroom forclosed home with a 40k bid, because they have cash on hand, at a time when 3bedroom homes are selling for 140k+ on the market, and while the rest of the buyers without the 40k cash on hand have to pay the 140k for the same asset - plus nearly double in interest with a home loan - $240-280k, then the person who can obtain the asset because he/she has the cash on hand is in a whole different financial mobility class than the person who has to pay the full rate plus interest. That financial mobility is the ticket of the rich - at least the financially educated rich. Anyone who can assume assets for far less than market value is in dang near rich, at least enough to reach the 1m point, a lot quicker than the ppl without cash on hand.

I'm keeping in mind that for most people 40k on hand is money to blow, not money to assume an asset. But I'm also keeping in mind that 80% of millionaires are first generation and they are topping those who inherit 6 - 1. So there just may be financial education involved there.

[shantipriya]

117. Rich & health Care

Then why the heck don't they pressure "their" Govt to do something about it.

[DUHandle]

136. Huh. I've been rich all of the time and never knew it.

[superconnected]

138. They can afford insurance.

If their only problem is "health-care" which so many millions of Americans go with out, and they can afford the premiums for, then I really can't sympathize.

:nopity:

I think it's in bad taste to think the working class would or SHOULD care. Having owned a business that catered to the rich, and seen people with incredible mansions, trips all over the world etc, complain about paying a few hundred in bills, for services they charged up, I just can't sympathize.

I'm glad they get the same physical ailments -cancer,heartdisease etc. It helps keep their humanity. And yeah, I know they aren't subject to many things like - pnemonia from hard labor out in the cold, and contagious coughs, ect. from shelters, the flu from an office bldg with poor ventaliation where the workers can' afford to be off even though everyone around them is sick.

[mondo joe]

142. I guess I missed the call for sympathy.

I read about a somewhat surprising bit of polling news.

Where was the call for sympathy?

[superconnected]

150. I never said there was a call for sympathy.

I can certianly say I don't sympathize with these people though.

You're post shows all the brilliance of a 5yo.

[ripple]

139. I see this as good news

If the rich see this as a problem that will have a long-term impact on their pocketbook, they are more likely to donate to candidates that support true health care reform.

Yes, it's difficult to feel sympathy for people who are receiving massive tax breaks on the backs of the working poor, but this might benefit all of us, albeit by default.

[shanti]

140. tough cookies

i say....:(

[Maine-ah]

143. they can all fucking bite

my pregnant non-insured-ass for all I fucking care.

[Megahurtz]

148. pbbthllbbbttttt!!!

:nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity:

Oh I'll bet they're concerned now! After years of soaking our tax dollars on free health care
when it was meant to pay for the less fortunate citizens. So the Repukes turn around and
take it away because they think that it was being abused by the poor LOL!!!
So now the poor and the middle class are suffering over the greedy selfishness of the wealthy
when all the while the wealthy were able to pay for their own healthcare!
Fuck them!!!:argh:

[saddemocrat]

154. Just checking this thread again

I am just now rechecking the boards after being away for several days and really...I find the posts offensives. It is ridiculous to me that I have been so criticized for saying that I don't want to give so much of my money to the government...that I support all democratic ideals but that I'm not willing to pay more in taxes than I already do.

You question how hard we work..you question our willingness to help those who can't help themselves....you question the kind of people that we are and imply that we feel that we 'deserve' to be rich.

I never said that we deserved to be rich...but we deserve to be comfortable and do with our money as we see fit even if that means that we *gasp* have a home where each of our children has a bedroom of their own. How much should we be "allowed" to earn in your United States? Is there a maximum salary allowed after taxes here at DU?

The people that you should have problems with are the CEOs earning 400-450 times what their employees earn while denying them healthcare benefits, etc....not with the middle class americans who have worked hard to make a good living for themselves. Apprently, many of you here are extreme enough to want a system where no matter how many years you invest in your education and training in your field that you earn the same salary as the person who didn't go to college etc.

Why do I give so little of my time right now? I'm currently raising 4 children and am pregnant with my 5th...during this pregnancy I was also diagnosed with a lymphoma (cancer) and have been receiving chemotherapy during my pregnancy. I am close to delivery, have no hair and am exhausted...but I still try and give what I can...I have in the past taught science classes part-time at the University here and was more than willing to help students with all kinds of problems (though I wasn't paying their tuition for them)....they all had my home phone number and called with a variety of issues school and non-school related.

We are good people who have worked hard to earn a salary that is above average, but we have sacrificed years of our lives to get there....also, the average debt of someone coming out of med school is >100,000 ... and that debt usually grows to much more before docs finish residency training. They sacrifice family time and time for themselves, pay a great deal for the education and work hard to treat everyone...with or without insurance. I'm sure that there are some in the field that you can also villify (we know a few).

I'm not going to apologize for working hard to make a nice lifestyle for our family or for wanting to keep more of our money.

Quite honestly, I came to the democrtic underground about a year ago when I was looking for a place to share views with other democrats...and I've met many. Unfortunately though, there are many extremists here that seem to dominate with their views and work to alienate members who don't share the exact view. There is no room at DU for moderates it seems.

[lovuian]

162. Theres room for moderates here and for everybody

The day we can't have a dialouge on a subject is sad...

I pray all goes well for the delivery of your baby and your health...

I too have noticed the anger on the DU... They yell at the poster but the ones they should yell at are the CEO's like Bill gates getting Billions... Peace ...

But I'm for Universal Health in America... let the Senators and military have the same healthcare as all Americans...

Our healthcare system can't keep going on like this...

the emergency room waiting room is going to be a longer and longer wait...

[saddemocrat]

164. Thank You

...for the prayer that all goes well....it has been a rough pregnancy..and a rough time in our lives. This was diagnosed right before Christmas and has literally knocked us on our butts...half of the time I don't know whether I'm coming or going.

I'm also for universal healthcare in America...My healthcare bills will be near 500,000 when this is over...what on EARTH would someone w/o healthcare insurance do in a situation like this? If this had happened to us just a few years ago, we would have been ruined.

We agree on many ideas...perhaps not on how to implement them. It is frustrating though that it isn't possible to have a discussion without the anger, blaming and *shouting*.

BTW..if I could choose how my tax dollars were spent (healthcare/schools/programs to help people with job training after being laid off etc...instead of some damned wars that should have never happened) I'd be less unhappy about my taxes. Both my husband and I believe that it is society's responsibility to take care of....society. But that means that if I pay in for medicare/social security I should get it too....If the money we paid went for things that were worthwhile..then...it would be different.

[Roland99]

163. Has anyone told them they can't take it with them?