Venezuela's Chavez threatens to expel US ambassador

[Eugene]

Venezuela's Chavez threatens to expel US ambassador
Sun Apr 9, 2006 4:45 PM ET

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez on Sunday threatened
to expel the US ambassador to Caracas in a warning that will further strain relations
between the two governments.

The threat came two days after Chavez supporters lobbed fruit and eggs at the ambassador's
car and the State Department warned Venezuela it could face consequences if it did not
protect the envoy.

Chavez, an ally of Cuba who accuses Washington of working to topple his government, accused
Ambassador William Brownfield of stirring up the protest and warned he would declare him
persona non grata if he insisted on provoking incidents.

"Start packing your bags Mister, if you keep on provoking us, start packing you bags,
because I'll kick you out of here," Chavez said on his regular Sunday television program.

<snip>

Full article: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=winterOlympics&storyID=2006-04-09T204510Z_01_N08270786_RTRUKOC_0_US-VENEZUELA-USA.xml

[stop the bleeding]

1. Some how I think shit is beginning to look for fan n/t

[Just Me]

2. Who could blame him? The fucking US bullies aren't going to back down.

Chavez's life is at stake and he knows it.

If I were him, I'd flatly deny US governmental presence especially while the oil and military barrons are ruling the U.S.A.

I don't blame him. Hell, I'd be working damn fast on gathering forces against against the global bullies.

[OKthatsIT]

18. I agree. He should tell them to leave so we dont have trouble

Chavezz knows the MSM is not telling the American people about the propaganda, they're being manipulated.

Just like the bullies planted at the RNC demontrations...these thugs go around setting people up and then accuse the victim for the crime or abuse. It's an evil easily recognized now.

[Terra Terra]

33. Why did they throw items at the ambassador?

From an LA Times article, he was handing out baseball equipment to poor kids. While there may very well be good reasons to protest the US ambassador in Venezuela, this does not appear to be one of them. Additionally, the host country is responsible for the security of foreign ambassadors when they are in the host country. Chavez should either expel the ambassador or provide better security.

"Brownfield was handing out baseball gloves, bats and catchers' equipment to 140 youths at a sports stadium when several dozen protesters showed up and began throwing objects at the ambassador, U.S. officials said.

An official who identified himself as police commander Luis Villasana then approached Brownfield and ordered him and his staff out of the stadium.

Brownfield was accompanied by two former Major League Baseball players from Venezuela and had addressed a crowd that included the youths' parents. Before leaving, he told reporters at the scene that his intention had been to show baseball "as transcending politics."

Protesters on about 12 motorcycles then chased the ambassador's motorcade after he left the stadium and continued to throw objects at the car and pound on it when his vehicle became stuck in traffic, witnesses said. "

More at link

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-venez8apr08,1,6779341.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Nomen Tuum]

3. Chavez, PLEASE do it and then demand the extradition of Pat Robertson

Let's just see Chucklenuts TRY to go after Chavez and Iran at the same time.

[NorCalDem]

5. Especially because with both of those countries

you would be fighting more than their countrymen. Both of those nations would have support flooding over their borders from neighboring nations, we almost would have to go to war with the entire region (sound familiar, like Iraq perhaps....)

[sasha031]

6. Women and jobless armed by Chavez to resist 'US invasion'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=887368&mesg_id=887368
I love this man

:)

[Pavulon]

10. Yes an ak is a great social program

shit we should buy surplus comblock crap at 80 bucks a unit and give it to our poor. A great solution for poverty.

Good to have an enemy to create a siege mentality to keep the sheep happy. Works here works there.

[Just Me]

8. The "flooding" has been building across the world,...

,...for way over the three years since the oil-barrons war on Iraq.

Humanity's freedom has gone as global as the "free marketeering exploiters", fer sure. Only, I don't think the arrogants anticipated the number of peoples AWARE. Of course, they wouldn't 'cause they are "arrogant", the worst lot of human beings: taking without any commitment to contributing.

[cliss]

11. Yes, Great point!

I think that's the problem with this administration. They are incredibly distracted by the Dante's Inferno in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this. OMG...

Now THIS is one story I'm going to follow. They're going to be after Brownpile from here on out. Just like that idiot in India, our ambassador who made threatening statements to India. They were screeching after that one, believe me.

[happydreams]

66. Right on!

:thumbsup:

[happydreams]

4. Brownfield snuggling up to Cisneros (Crime family)

...The only thing I found strange and extremely disturbing was a news report on Venevision which talked about a meeting between Ricardo Cisneros (from the Cisneros Group, the largest media group in Latin America and owners of Venevision) and William Brownfield, US ambassador to Venezuela. This meeting happened at Venevision headquarters in Caracas on December 15, 2004 in the company of the president of Venevision.

Brownfield stated that he is very happy with the way Venevision operates and their professionalism … and that the US government fully supports Venevision....


http://www.vheadline.com/printer_news.asp?id=23984

[Judi Lynn]

13. Nothing too subtle there, right? His father, Gustavo Cisneros, was

one of the coup plotters, and intimately caught up in all the steps leading up to the coup and throughout the coup. He had, as I've read, expected to become a highly placed figure in the new Venezuelan government.

He is a good _Bush family friend. He's mentioned in this article from the Guardian concerning the coup:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/US_Coup_Venezuela.html



Gustavo Cisneros, fishing pal George H. W. _Bush

[happydreams]

59. Cisneros crime family and Aryan Brotherhood

References to Cisneros crime family nearly cleaned from Internet search engines. I did find this reference. Check out the link to Aryan Brotherhood

Prison and gangs - The New Mexican Mafia (Eme), the Aryan Brotherhood and other groups have become notorious for drug dealing and cold-blooded killings, behind bars and on the outside.

New Eme, especially, is blamed by Phoenix police for more than 25 murders in the past five years. The organization has a "blood-in, blood-out" code, meaning that one must commit serious violence to join and suffer mayhem or death to resign.

Two years ago, authorities arrested several New Eme members in a conspiracy to kill state prisons chief Terry Stewart. Those charges did not stick, but top gang leaders were arrested last year with members of the related Cisneros crime family in a monster drug case.

The problem: Prison gangs were born behind bars and flourish there, so incarceration is hardly an antidote. In fact, although much of New Eme's leadership is in custody, police say the organization remains effective at killing witnesses, compromising lawyers and dealing drugs.

The Aryan Brotherhood, meanwhile, is considered a major factor in Arizona's flourishing methamphetamine market. This year, prison officials released records alleging that Brotherhood leaders also were conspiring to kill Stewart.


http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special01/articles/crime.html


:hi: Judi

[Judi Lynn]

62. He's a creepy crawler, all right, a Cuban-Venezuelan billionaire pal

of the BFEE.

Here's a Forbes look at the guy:
http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2004/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&uniqueId=GX8F&datatype=Person

I think they're saying he's the 94th richest person in the world. He owns Coca-Cola companies, and beer companies, a baseball team, etc., etc.

You may find this letter from the Global Women's Strike protesting an award which Kissinger was supposed to present to him to be interesting:

The Global Women’s Strike statement follows:

The Global Women’s Strike condemns the outrageous decision of the Inter-American Economic Council to honor Latin American media tycoon Gustavo Cisneros at its 2004 Winter Gala on Thirsday January 29h. It shows once more the total contempt of the US administration for people’s right to elect their own government. To recognize as a person who “has consistently sought to create an environment where business and government can work together in meaningful ways for the betterment of society,” a man who has systematically used his corporate wealth and media monopoly to illegally and violently attempt to force from office the democratically-elected government of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, is particularly cynical. It is women in particular who elected and have overwhelmingly defended President Chavez, and women from the poorest areas who have most to gain from and have been most involved in the economic and social reforms Venezuela is undertaking to tackle poverty and corruption despite constant coup and assassination attempts from the likes of Cisneros.

The award is being given at the Andrew W. Mellon Auditorium 1301 Constitution Avenue, NW January 29, 2004, beginning at 6:30pm.

Gustavo Cisneros’ record is one of working for the “betterment” of the white, racist elite of Venezuela against the interests of the vast majority of Venezuelans who are people of color, and who, in oil-rich Venezuela, were left mired in poverty after 40 years of rule by the Venezuelan elite:

He played a leading role in the bloody April 11, 2002 coup d’etat against the government of President Hugo Chavez – a coup planned and carried out with the support of the US administration. The coup was defeated within days by millions of grassroots people taking to the streets to demand the return of their elected President and constitution.

He was a leader in the Dec 2002-Feb 2003 nationwide big-corporations’ lock out aimed at forcing President Chávez from office, which brought more suffering to grassroots Venezuelans. Again, grassroots people, starting with the oil workers themselves worked overtime to save their valuable resource, and defeated the new attempt of overthrowing President Chavez.

He has used his media power in relentless campaigns of lies, disinformation, distortion and racist insults against President Chavez and his supporters. On the day of the coup he even used his television station, Venevision, as the meeting place for top coup supporters, reportedly including the dictator illegally installed as President, Pedro Carmona.

The Cisneros Group has been implicated in the December 2003 illegal shipment of US$2.5 million in cash seized aboard an American Airlines flight from Miami Florida to Caracas, no doubt intended to help finance another attempted coup against the Venezuelan people.

Gustavo Cisneros personally spoke with the U.S. State Department's former Latin American Affairs Chief, Otto Reich and the U.S. Ambassador to Venezuela, Charles Shapiro (currently under fire for hosting a puppet show ridicule of President Chávez in his home in Caracas) on the day of the coup, an event reported in Newsweek Magazine (see Newsweek, April 29, 2002, p.10).

To add insult to injury, Henry Kissinger will be presenting this obscene award. Kissinger is himself a war criminal and a man reviled all over Latin America, the Caribbean and the world for leading the CIA overthrow of the democratically-elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973. He justified the coup which led to the disappearances of thousands of people and the exile of hundreds of thousands with the infamous statement: "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." Kissinger is also responsible for similar US policies in Indonesia and Cyprus. He recently had to withdraw his appointment by President Bush to head a commission investigating 9/11 because his reputation was too unsavory to give any credibility to the findings. He cannot travel to many countries for fear of arrest.

For further info: http://globalwomenstrike.net
(snip/)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1183

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[happydreams]

63. Venezuela is an excellant case study in Bush fascist power brokering.

We seldom hear about the racism involved. Thanks for sharing Judi.

[happydreams]

64. Sure would like our friend Bacchus to comment

}(

[Bacchus39]

67. there is a coup leader residing in the presidential palace right now

did you know that??

[Judi Lynn]

70. He got the last laugh on the monster who provoked it.

Let's have another look at that Venezuela timeline from the BBC:

~snip~
1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Background on El Caracazo, the massacre called into being by the Venezuelan president against whom Hugo Chavez led the coup:

To combat the economic crisis that Venezuela had been going through since the early 1980s, President Carlos Andrés Pérez proposed to implement free-market "reforms" in his second presidential term (1989–1993), following the recommendations of the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Whilst some were glad, large sections of the populace felt betrayed, as they had voted him in on a populist platform. Pérez belonged to the Acción Democrática (AD) party (social-democrat). This programme was known as the paquete — the "package".

Measures taken by Pérez included privatising state companies, tax reform, reducing customs duties, and diminishing the role of the state in the economy. He also took measures to decentralize and modernise the Venezuelan political system, by instituting the direct elecion of state governors (previously appointed by the President).

Protests and rioting
The protests and rioting began in Guarenas (a town in Miranda State, some 30 km east of Caracas) on the morning of 27 February 1989. They quickly spread to the capital and other towns across the country. By the afternoon, there were disturbances in almost all districts of Caracas, with shops shut and public transport not running.

In the days that followed, the media showed images of the looting and damage caused. For many months, there was discussion about how something so violent could occur in Venezuela.

Overwhelmed by the looting, the government declared a state of emergency, put the city under martial law and restored order albeit with the use of force. Some people used firearms for self-defence, to attack other civilians and/or to attack the military, but the number of dead soldiers and police came nowhere near the number of civilian deaths. The repression was particularly harsh in the cerros — the poor neighbourhoods of the capital.

The initial official pronouncements said 276 people had died; however, the subsequent discovery that the government had buried civilians in mass graves and not counted those deaths raised the estimates. Unofficial estimates of the death toll go as high as 3000.
(snip)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo

(If the source doesn't please you, the same information appears in many other sources, of course.)

[Bacchus39]

71. I know all about that

perhaps the next coup leader will do the same to Chavez. what do you think??

Chavez committed treason.

[Judi Lynn]

72. Right. Chavez led a coup against a mass murderer who stole from

his country, BIG TIME, and got thrown in the slammer for his efforts. A true criminal.

[Judi Lynn]

87. No one can attempt to stop a rogue President who is slaughtering

the citizens, and stuffing his pockets with funds from the National Treasury, or must every one simply wait to see if there's a right-wing idiot President from another country who can come SAAAAVE them through a REGIME CHANGE, at a horrendous cost of human life?

Chavez and the other coup attempt leader were responding to a filthy threat to their countrymen. He was pardoned. If he was deemed a wild beast, a maniac, a criminal, the pardon would never have been delivered.

End of story.

[Bacchus39]

89. so coups are OK then?

like when Aristide was overthrown?

will Chavez pardon Maria Machado for organizing a constitutional recall election or will he continue to try her for treason? what say you?

[happydreams]

74. Back to your old habits I see: drifting off topic.

I wanted you to comment about Cisneros. Or do you think he's a great liberator fighting against Lefty tyrants?

As I have said a number of times to you: judge Chavez by the results Bacchus, the results, not the rhetoric.

May the Goddess of Wine be with you, as it appears she is.

[Bacchus39]

76. I am more than willing to judge Chavez by his results

are you? I find them to be quite poor. corruption, crime, impunity, poverty. what has he done?

[happydreams]

78. Same ol' unsubstantiated hyperbole. Results Bacchus, results.

You gotta put up facts or give up the claim. :eyes:

[happydreams]

75. By your argument the American Revolution

was little more than a coup. History has shown, as it is showing regarding Chavez, that they fought for a better world for the people.

You just keep repeating the tired old argument.

[Bacchus39]

77. Venezuela was not a colony, Simon Bolivar already

took care of that. Chavez tried to overthrow an elected president by violent means. there is no denying that. you can put lipstick on a cochino but it will still be as ugly as Chavez.

[happydreams]

79. Yea, a thug backed by the Cisneros/Bush sleaze, like Somoza, like

Pinoshit. You wallow in technicalities with nothing to support your claims. Results Bacchus, results. You must judge a person by the results.

[Bacchus39]

83. yes results. which are???

what has Chavez done???

[Bacchus39]

84. here are some "results"

amazing how supportive people are of a country they have never even been to.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=389&sid=747885&sidelines=1

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/06/venezuela.crime.ap/index.html

http://www.thehtd.org/travel/destination.asp?DocID=196

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

86. Crime got worse under the Pedro Roselló administration.

Yet you claim he did such a good job. Why the hypocrisy? Just so you don't try your old trick. The last governor and the current one suck too. They have been unable to fix anything this fucker made worse.

[Bacchus39]

88. I thought the "mano dura" policy was effective

and resulted in less crime???? However, I wasn't there prior to Rosello so I can't compare to before. Rosello benefitted from the same economic growth that happened under Clinton. but Rosello got a big head and i believe he was defeated more as an anti-Rosello vote than a pro-Anibal.

Sila wanted a less in your face policy but came off as weak and she was ineffective. Spending her time trying to get international recognition of puerto rico's sovereignty. The Navy case in Vieques was fascinating. We want you to stop bombing Vieques but please don't abandon the RR Naval Base. the Navy left at the exact time that Rosello and Clinton agreed. of course this is old news to you but some might not know much about PR including one here who was lamenting all the "immigrants" from PR.

Anibal doesn't seem to inspire much confidence and there seems to be some very severe financial problems occurring.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

90. "Mano dura" my ass. The average murder rate went from about

800 to over 1000 annually in 1994. All he did was put armed guards in front of the urban projects. Then the crime spread all over the rural areas. That little rat bastard managed our economy as well as Bush is managing this one. Anybody over there (except for the real partisans) can tell you that. Like I said Ms Calderon and Gov. Acevedo Vila have been unable to do anything about the financial mess he left. If you want a model of what the next US president will have to deal with just look at us.

"Mano dura contra el crimen" what a fucking joke. Just like No Child Left Behind or Compassionate Whatever. Nice slogans but that's about it. GO ahead and put all the lipstick you want on this pig fucker and his cronies. They still come out as ugly as Katherine Harris.

The book "Los Honorables" gives a good insight into how organized crime and the PNP cozy up to each other.

Don't even get me started on Vieques.

[Bacchus39]

91. Rosello should go back to practicing medicine

however in an election contest between a douche bag and a turd sandwich, go with the douche bag. Rosello's image at least was much stronger during his 8-years as governor than the 4-years afterwards when he tried to get back in.

actually the US economy is doing quite well. PR would be happy to have it right now. However, Bush's disastrous war and the irresponsible deficit spending by our Moron in Chief is likely diminishing any gains by our relative economic strength at the moment.

Vieques was handled very poorly by Sila. and the PDP's desire to keep RR open was ridiculous. I see alot of opportunity for Ceiba and the base area though economically without the Navy. but undoubtedly alot of politics will get in the way.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

92. Quite well huh. Whatever you say. Enjoy those tax cuts BTW.

As far as your boy is concerned. He should be in a court room facing corruption charges.

Roselló went out like a bitch on Vieques. Clinton was scared of his image with the military just like with the "don't ask don't tell" garbage.

[happydreams]

93. Reinvent the wheel ? You heard of that game?

But still you haven't commented on Cisneros>Bush>coup info.

[happydreams]

80. Let's be honest Bacchus. Your game is just to keep floating

this long dead arguments to keep the "controversy" about Chavez alive. It's a war of attrition isn't it. The old game of "well they are all corrupt". By that measure you could equate any leader in the world with any other: Hitler with Ghandi, Roosevelt w Bush, or Bush with Lincoln.

[happydreams]

96. Why no reply?

[Judi Lynn]

81. Your valued elected President Carlos Andres Peres turned against the

people. He had them shot down in the streets in great numbers, and he stole HUGE amounts from the National Treasury for his own use. He was impeached, he was tried, he was put in jail after the coup attempts.

This "elected President" got off so easy, at that. He, from his homes in New York, Miami, etc. still calls for the assassination of Hugo Chavez and remains a voice of the Venezuelan opposition despite his crimes against the people.

There IS no moral high ground trying to protect this monster.

[Bacchus39]

82. I could care less about Perez

that is not the point. Chavez committed treason: fact!!!

[happydreams]

94. What fact? Show it?

[Bacchus39]

97. the fact that Chavez committed treason. hello???

and I have no comment on Bush-Cisneros. I have no idea who Cisneros is.

[happydreams]

125. Well so did GW

George Washington and the rest. "If this be treason lets make the most of it."

Selective blindness on Cisneros? Porque'?

[happydreams]

95. What do you think of Simon Bolivar? Just curious.

[Bacchus39]

98. ,been to his house, the greatest patriot in Latin America

at least northern South America. their George Washington. I went to his house in Bogota, Colombia in January. He wasn't home.

he took much of his inspiration from the USA's war of independence as a matter of fact. and the US actually had troops fighting there. mercenaries actually I believe but nonetheless the cause was just and the US assistance appreciated. I believe their is a monument to the US soldiers in Cumana, Venezuela. I'll have to google that though.

Bolivar's dream of a Gran Colombia petered out rather quickly and unlike Washington, Bolivar quickly lost his aura not to be regained until decades after his death.

[happydreams]

99. and the modern Bolivarian revolution ?

Times up, I'll check this tomorrow.

[Bacchus39]

100. a joke, a misnomer

an invocation of a great leader by a dolt for political gain. in no way is comparable to South America's independence.

[happydreams]

101. OK, what was great about Bolivar?

[bacchus93]

110. his greatness was his cause of liberty and his success

at achieving it. not his governing skills since his Gran Colombia quickly disintegrated.

[happydreams]

118. But not Chavez throwing off the US imperialists?

:shrug:

Please don't make me reinvent the wheel here. You must agree that the US is being just a we bit imperialistic in Venezuela.

[bacchus93]

119. in the sense that the US has historically tried to influence

the region yes. In the sense that the US is a colonial power in the real sense absolutely not. Its not the same situation.

latin american countries should be free to exercise their own affairs without undue influence from any outside power. absolutely. but that doesn't mean the US can't forge alliances, agreements, and strong relationships with latin countries.

[happydreams]

122. You don't make one bit of sense here. You say that

Latin American countries should not be unduelly influenced by outside powers, but when they are you condemn the person (Chavez) who is trying to fight that influence. :crazy:

What the hell are you trying to prove? Is this just about babbling along for the sake of wasting time?

[bacchus93]

124. insults are unnecessary

an example of imperialism would be the USA and Puerto Rico lets say. there is no comparable situation with Venezuela.

Peru just signed a trade agreement with the USA. whether or not that will result in a benefit is another discussion. However, Chavez has criticized these agreements. Now he can and does say anything but it is simply not his business to tell Peru what to do. just as we agree it is not any of the USA's business to have undue influence on other nations.

[happydreams]

126. Enough said. Yer just babbling to babble.

Now yer off babbling about Peru and Puerto Rico after telling me you don't know who Cisneros is. Selective blindness. :eyes:

[bacchus93]

127. no, I don't know. and you are the one who is leading the inquisition

Chavez is conducting imperialist actions in other nations as well. trying to influence them to join in his opposition to the US.

[happydreams]

105. Let me ask this another way. How does Chavez conflict

with Bolivars ideals?

[bacchus93]

109. there is no parallel

Bolivar successfully ended colonial rule. How do these "ideals" coincide with Chavez at all?

does Chavez want to "unite" the Andean nations and be a dictator too?

[happydreams]

111. Colonial rule by the Spanish, but not colonialistic control by

the next oppressor, the US. Why do we have the above mentioned coup attempts by the US in Venezuela and the long list of US sponsored coups and assasinations in Latin America over the past two centuries? You can hardly be a sincere Bolivar admirer without seeing that Chavez is fighting for the same cause, only against a different colonial power.

[bacchus93]

112. sure I can admire him for removing the bonds of colonialism

Chavez is doing nothing of the sort unless you believe latin america is nothing more than a colony of the US. a rather condescending outlook.

what right does Chavez have to speak for Bolivians, Colombians, Peruvians, Ecuadorians, Brazilians, and to tell them what is good for them?

[happydreams]

114. Are you the same bacchus?

Why the name change?

[bacchus93]

115. a different computer

n/t

[Flanker]

103. He heavily resented the US

Even so much as predicting how it would dominate the region, the mercenaries were from Britain, little help came from the north as opposed to French and Spanish aid to Washington.

His native home in Caracas is quite nice too.

[happydreams]

104. Yep, He called them imperialists and this was back in the early

1800's after the Monroe Doctrine. IMO Chavez is trying to implement what Bolivar began.

[happydreams]

106. USS Simon Bolivar

USS Simon Bolivar (SSBN-641), a Benjamin Franklin-class ballistic missile submarine, was the only ship of the United States Navy to be named for Simón Bolívar (1783–1830), a hero of the independence movements of the former Spanish colonies in South America.

Her keel was laid down on 17 April 1963 by the Newport News Shipbuilding of Newport News, Virginia. She was launched on 22 August 1964 sponsored by Mrs. Thomas C. Mann, and commissioned on 29 October 1965 with Commander Charles H. Griffiths commanding the Blue Crew and Commander Charles A. Orem commanding the Gold.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Simon_Bolivar_%28SSBN-641%29


:crazy:

[bacchus93]

108. you mean in his attempt to proclaim himself dictator??

Unhappy with what would be the ensuing result, Bolívar's delegates left the convention. After the failure of the convention due to grave political differences, Bolívar proclaimed himself dictator on August 27, 1828 through the "Organic Decree of Dictatorship".

He considered this as a temporary measure, as a means to reestablish his authority and save the republic, though it increased dissatisfaction and anger among his political opponents. An assassination attempt in September 1828 failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bolivar

[happydreams]

113. We have a new bacchus. Welcome! I suppose yer

gonna pick up where your capital B (B for Big Daddy?) left off.

Or are you the same one?

You admire a "dictator" if you are.

[bacchus93]

116. I admire his efforts at ending Spanish colonial rule

his efforts at organizing a new unified latin america do not merit admiration. so Chavez admires a dictator too I guess.

[happydreams]

120. So you and Chavez admire the same guy for the same reasons

and yet you think Chavez bad? :crazy:

You'll note if you look closely that Bolivar was from an aristocratic family who saw the light. Bolivar's "dictatorial" actions were taken to preserve Republic that was in turmoil and were meant to be temporary. It's obvious that he was not out for his own interests. If that were the case he would never have abandoned his aristocratic upbringing in the first place.

[bacchus93]

121. I stated before, the Bolivarian revolution is a misnomer

Simon Bolivar wasn't about creating socialism. his greatness was defeating the Spanish gaining independence for about half of latin america nd San Martin the southern part of south america. how does that compare to Chavez?

[happydreams]

123. In the sense that is is about throwing off imperialism the Bolivarian

revolution is hardly a misnomer.

[bacchus93]

107. he resented the USA?? lets ask Simon

he modeled the Constitution on the USA's and George Washington was his idol.

"The more I admire the excellence of the Federal Constitution of Venezuela," he said, "the more I am convinced of the impossibility of its application to our State. And it is a marvel to me that its model in the United States has operated so successfully and has not been upset when the first embarrassments or perils appeared. In spite of the fact that the North American people are a singular example of political virtues and moral enlightenment, in spite of the fact that freedom was their cradle, that liberty was the air they breathed, and the food they ate; in spite of the fact (I will go the whole limit) that in many respects this people is unique in the history of the human race, still do I repeat; it seems a marvel to me that a government and complicated as the federal system should have endured under circumstances so difficult and delicate as through which it has passed."

The Epic of Latin America. 1992. John A. Crow

[happydreams]

117. Read Lafabre "Inevitable Revolutions" Bolivar

saw the imperialistic character of the Monroe Doctrine.

[Judi Lynn]

69. It's an exhausting subject, isn't it?

Poor, poor Mr. Brownfield, being chased around Caracas by eggs and fruits. He may want to place plastic sheeting over his car, and secure it with a lot of duct tape.

[bee]

7. "Start packing your bags Mister"

:rofl: I hope he does it.

[Webster Green]

9. Probably for his own well being...

I loved watching that little prick get pelted with stuff the other day.

Fuck BushCo and the BFEE!

[Igel]

12. Link.

http://okok.essortment.com/puffersfish_rbgg.htm

And, yes, it's not intended as a compliment, and unfortunately I can't just link to the last part of the page. He's playing 'blame the victim' while trying to be the victim so as to be top dog; local politics is a wonderful thing, but I'm tired of reading virtually the same articles and speeches, over and over, all original in various decades and various countries and various languages. And yet all, with minor changes to names and dates, interchangeable.

The tedium is excruciating.

[PSPS]

14. "Chavez, an ally of Cuba ..."

Notice how they put that in there thinking it whill somehow smear Chavez. Damn liberal media!

I'll bet they don't bother mentioning the "ally of Cuba" phrase when discussing the leaders of the other 130 countries that have diplomatic relations with Cuba and are, therefore, "allies."

[Judi Lynn]

15. Isn't THAT the truth! Now that Evo Morales is Bolivia's president, they

always take time to draw the association between Morales and Chavez, as well.

What's the point of writing "news" to these clowns, if it doesn't offer the chance for perception molding along right-wing political lines?

You've probably also noticed they never mention Cuba without claiming it's a "communist ruled nation." Only a few have moved on to "socialist nation."

They're going to have their hands full after all of Latin America finally unites, and moves independently of U.S. right-wing direction. They'll be driven to distraction having to point out in EVERY article that each country is under the influence of some other leftist leader in another country.

Our press is a mockery of its former self.

[President Kerry]

17. yup - Lou Dobbs' old "Communist China" trick

used whenever he talks about China in any context, he always refers to it as Communist China, even though the adjective may bear no relevance to the story. Joe McCarthy would be proud. Same thing they're trying to do with Chavez. Cuba is no part of the story, but somehow they've got to get this worthless aside in.

[killbotfactory]

22. Like Nelson Mandela?

Who is a good friend of Castro, even?

Oh yeah, according to Raygun and the brave conservatives in his government, Mandela was a terrorist for his activities opposing aparthied.

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. I think that, as usual, they're barking up the wrong tree with most

people, if they, of all kites and crows, think they are in a position to demonize Cuba, a paragon of civilised government, admired throughout the world (where incidentally, genuine Christian church-goers are perfectly free to worship).

In Cuba they have what the psychos of the far right call a "Nanny" government; the fact is that people prefer to spend their tax dollars on a government as caring and concerned for their interests as a grandmother. "Psycho" governments we have to put up with, but given the choice we woudn't pay for them from our taxes. Though rednecks are easily duped by the those "snakes-in-suits", mercifully, masochism is not hard-wired in mankind.

[Imperialism Inc.]

25. It seems to be a required feature of any article about

Venezuela/Chavez now-a-days. That and/or "socialist", which is true enough but usually irrelevant to the article it used in.

[Joe Chi Minh]

73. No. I think it's very important. You have to have the conviction

that the way they frame the politics of the left is nothing less than farcical. Encourage them to shoot themselves in the foot. Socialism is something to aspire to, and to be immensely pleased with and proud of, when it is achieved.

If they tried to peddle that kind of stuff in Scandinavia - Western Europe, for that matter, even right-wingers would be puzzled, flummoxed, even. Peddling Socialism as a bogey-man would be regarded as insane here. The right here has to pretend to covet left-wing, socially-responsible policies. Good gracious, even Bush tries to appear a tree-hugging, humane progessive with his totally mendacious "Clear-Sky"!!! policy, "Leave No Child Behind" policy. Why do you all continue to be defensive when they keep peddling 1950s McCarthyite trash? Instead of turning their jibes against them and highlighting their folly!

[goforit]

16. Thank you Bush for the delightful relationship with Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

19. Maybe you've not heard of the asshat who was there BEFORE him.

That one, Charles Shapiro, was photographed stumbling forward to throw his spindly arms around the Coup President for a Day, Pedro Carmona, during the Bush-sub]backed attempted overthrow of Hugo Chavez.

Here's a wry article on one wretched stunt Shapiro pulled before he was replaced as the U.S. ambassador to Venezuela:

US Ambassador to Venezuela Makes Ass of Self
author: Arrecha
United States Ambassador to Venezuela, Charles Shapiro, hosted a party in which used "freedom of expression" as an excuse to ridicule President Chavez and to express a desire for "better relations" between Venezuela and the government of George W. Bush.


Last Tuesday, the United States Ambassador Charles Shapiro hosted a party at his residence. The occasion of the gathering was to commemorate "World Freedom of Expression Day." Venezuelan corporate media chiefs, journalism associations and unions, ambassadors, the director of the Unesco, and other personalities were also invited.

As part of the entertainment, Charles Shapiro invited a comedian to divert his guests. The show began with the humorist dressed up as a Marta Colomina (a well-known anti-Chavez journalist) holding a puppet of Chavez—criticizing his government and ridiculing the president.

I found it very cynical that the next day, Shapiro apologized for the show, when witness said that he was applauding vigorously after the show. Shapiro, a puppet himself, said that the embassy did not know in advance the kind of show that they were getting. Meanwhile, the comedian expressed in one of the newspapers, that he actually met with embassy members in advance to discuss his performance at Mr. Shapiro's party.

In the past, Shapiro has critized the "repressive freedom of expression" that is present during the "oppressive regime" of president Chavez. He has also said that he wants to see better relations between Venezuela and the government of George W. Bush.
(snip/...)

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/05/264864.shtml

[IChing]

20. Thanks for getting the truth out a must read. n/t

[killbotfactory]

21. If I remember correctly, this asshat ambassador gets millions of dollars

to help educate (yeah, right...) some venezuelan school somewhere.

It reminds me of the 600 dollar hammers, and toilet lids.

[Joe Chi Minh]

23. I can't help thinking how different things might have been for

both South America and the US, had South America been allowed to develop naturally, i.e without the murderous political and military intereference of the US, but instead had been assisted by it in its economic development. Might not South America's economy have been at a yet more advanced stage than that of China - with enormous economic spin-offs for the US?

Might it not have been a Pan-American bloc, like the EU for Europe, with free movement in both directions, but also with enormous shared economic benefits and far more propitious race relations.

In the US, instead of Hispanic enclaves gradually moving northwards, (something I personally, would find very agreeable, as I deplore our imperialistic Anglo-Norman culture), a smoother assimilation into the traditional culture of the US might have taken place.

[1932]

29. Overthrow : America's century of regime change from Hawaii to Iraq

by Stephen Kinzer

New book. It argues that the US would be much better off if we hadn't overthrown all those governments over the years.

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. Thank you. It sounds interesting.

[coalition_unwilling]

38. Not to defend the U.S., but don't forget the role of Spanish

conquistatadors in thoroughly fucking up (through disease and military conquest) beautiful indigenous societies that had existed for thousands of years before the European invasion\occupation. (And, while we're at it, don't forget the role of the Roman Catholic church in sanctioning this bullshit.)

[Bacchus39]

39. yes but that is ancient history

I am not sure how that is relevant to this issue.

[coalition_unwilling]

40. To quote you, "I can't help thinking how different things might have been

for both South America and the US, had South America been allowed to develop naturally." South America stopped "developing naturally," the minute the Spanish conquistadors set foot on the continent.

For example, the very idea of a nation-state of "Venezuela" is itself a by-product of European colonialism, as is the notion of "popular sovereignty." The primary social organization in pre-European South American society was tribal, not national.

[Bacchus39]

41. Not my quote.

you aren't telling me anything new. however, it is still irrelevant as the Americas haven't existed this way for over 500 years

[coalition_unwilling]

42. Ouch, sorry about that (seriously) -- I assumed you were the

same person who posted the response I was originally responding to.

Yes, people always accuse us historians of being "irrelevant," until they need to remember that quote from Georges Santayana. Uh, let's see, what was it? Oh yeah: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

[Bacchus39]

44. ok, please make the connection then

seriously. I don't see how Spanish colonization of South America is related to a food fight with the US ambassador. but I am open to your position. I just don't see it.

[coalition_unwilling]

46. Please read Reply #23. That was the post I was originally responding to,

I merely wanted to point out that the U.S. isn't the only party to have meddled in South American affairs to the detriment of South American indigenous culture. Somehow, that point seems to have gotten lost in all the hurly-burly.

It has absolutely no relevance to a food fight with the U.S. ambassador (the nominal subject of the original post), but it does have relevance as a reply to Reply #23. Or am I missing your point?

[Bacchus39]

47. I don't think he or she was referring to the indigenous people

I think he/she was referring to the political development of South America AFTER colonization. While I agree that the US has inappropriately interfered in many instances in latin america, I am quite certain that former latin american power mongers, military leaders, political elite, and the wealthy did more than their share in carving up their share of the pie for themselves independent of any US actions.

so I don't necessarily share the rosy view of how latin america would be so much better without US interference. Also, if the economy of latin america would have been so great without the US screw- ups there, as he or she infers, why would there be immigrants coming to the US???

[coalition_unwilling]

48. Yes, I agree that he or she was referring to post-colonization.

I'm no big defender of U.S. imperialism or its local cronies among the colonies\client states. I merely wanted to point out that the tradition of interfering in other people's cultures pre-dates the U.S. taking up the tradition (for Wilsonian or other reasons).

I do think the people of Latin America would be much, much better off had Europeans never set foot on the continent. For that matter, the native Americans of North America would be much, much better off had Europeans not set foot on North America. But that's a personal view.

[Bacchus39]

49. well, of course but there is no going back

to pre-colonial times.

and I do in fact agree with that the Spanish really screwed over latin america. slavery, racism, greed, corruption, power all pre-date any US involvement and would have continued with or without it. thus, my belief that there would be no real improvement in latin america with or without US involvement.

some people here do not give other nations and leaders enough credit whether it be Africa or latin america. they are more than capable of screwing up their own countries without any help from the US.

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Just one final example: the Aztecs had some fairly

cruel practices (by current Judeo-Christian standards) like human sacrifice. And yet, as I observe the vacuity of modern culture and the attendant despair it carries in its wake, I can't help thinking that the average Aztec (pre-Cortez) was much happier than the average contemporary Mexican or the average contemporary American.

Jeesh, maybe I'm so radical I'm becoming a closet reactionary :)

[Bacchus39]

51. I would think so since frankly latin american indigenous people

don't appear to be very happy now. I don't know if this is due to 500 years of repression or its more of a cultural thing. excuse the analogy but they remind me of a dog that was beaten.

however, I would say that latin people, non-Indian, are generally pretty happy despite their more precarious circumstances than here in the US.

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Thank you for noting the distinctions between indigenous, Latins

and Americans. Yes, I think the situtation for the truly indigenous today is very grim. And I would say that Latin people (meaning non-indigenous) are generally happier than their U.S. counterparts, even with their precarious situation.

I get the feeling, though, that the average Mexican (non-indigenous) is pretty darned unhappy with the regime of Vicente Fox whose policy for improving the life of his people is to export them to the U.S. to serve as serfs for the corporate masters that Fox and Bush both serve. (I hope this doesn't start a whole other flame war.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

61. Because of the US screw-ups, of course. That's my point.

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. What has that got to do with the price of fish and chips?

You're saying that colonisation by the Spanish proved beneficial in the long run. I agree. But why bring up fantasies about the "Noble Savage", when I was making a point about noble, civilised contemporaries of yours in South America, ruthlessly held back in their economic and social development, effectively, by US robber-baron oligarchs?

[Joe Chi Minh]

68. Oh, and I should add that the aforesaid US military-industrial

oligarchs, unlike the brutal Spanish colonisers, have bequeathed nothing but violence, destitution and death to the inhabitants of South America, and never would in a month of Sundays. They have been an unambiguous curse everywhere they have turned their beady gimlet eyes.

[Joe Chi Minh]

57. I don't think societies given to holding mass human sacrifices, as

were the Aztecs, "tenderizing" their victims by throwing them down stone steps then ripping out their still beating hearts, were that beautiful really. Such religious rites almost manage to put the grotesquely scandalous politically-driven enormities of the institutional Catholic Church, historically, in a better light.

However, when you read just some of the extraordinarily wise writings of the host of great spiritual writers produced in every age by the Catholic and Orthodox churches, their survival in the very teeth of such a historical record, becomes very much more understandable. (This is in no way meant to minimise the great contributions of Protestant writers, historically).

[Imperialism Inc.]

26. The Danger of Hugo Chávez's Successful Socialism

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0407-23.htm
The Danger of Hugo Chávez's Successful Socialism
by Ted Rall

When the hated despots of nations like Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan loot their countries' treasuries, transfer their oil wealth to personal Swiss bank accounts and use the rest to finance (in the House of Saud's case) terrorist extremists, American politicians praise them as trusted friends and allies. But when a democratically elected populist president uses Venezuela's oil profits to lift poor people out of poverty, they accuse him of pandering.

(snip)

In their desperate frenzy to destroy Chávez, state-controlled media is resorting to some of the most transparently and hilariously hypocritical talking points ever. In the April 4th New York Times Juan Forero repeated the trope that Chávez's use of oil revenues is unfair--even cheating somehow: "With Venezuela's oil revenues rising 32 percent last year," the paper exclaimed, "Mr. Chávez has been subsidizing samba parades in Brazil, eye surgery for poor Mexicans and even heating fuel for poor families from Maine to the Bronx to Philadelphia. By some estimates, the spending now surpasses the nearly $2 billion Washington allocates to pay for development programs and the drug war in western South America."

(snip)

Loaded language unworthy of a junior high school newspaper is the norm in coverage of the Venezuelan president. "Chavez insists his government is democratic and accuses Washington of conspiring against him," the San Jose Mercury-News wrote on April 3rd. Why the "insists"? No international observer doubts that Venezuela, where the man who won the election gets to be president, is at least as democratic as the United States. The 2002 coup plotters gathered beforehand at the White House. Surely the Merc could grant Chávez's "accusation" as fact. The paper continued: "He says the United States was behind a short-lived 2002 coup, an allegation that U.S. officials reject." He also happens to be right, though it's hard to tell by reading that sentence.

Eighty-two percent of Venezuelans think Chávez is doing a good job. That's more than twice the approval rating by Americans of Bush. He roundly defeated an attempt to recall him. So why is Washington lecturing Caracas?

"The government is making billions of dollars and spending them on houses, education, medical care," notes CNN. And--gasp--people's lives are improving.

(more)

[Dragonbreathp9d]

27. And he has every right to do so

I hte the talk about him "threatening Democracy in the area". He was democratically elected! The people love him! He's trying to help the people of his country! So of course he and Bush bump heads, they are completely opposite in every way.

[1932]

28. According to this article at Bloomberg.com, US was provoking a response.

It sounds like the problem was that Brownfield showed up uninvited at the baseball game. The mayor asked him to leave (because he was provoking a negative response and they weren't prepared for him?) and so the motorcade left the baseball game and drove around a nearby market until somebody noticed him.

If this is true, then it's funny that they're sufficiently confident that no real violence will beset them that they're willing to drive around Caracas until somebody gets mad, yet the impression they're trying to create is that Browfield is being violently attacked.

If they're so worried about violence, why show up unanounced and then cruise the local market until somebody notices who you are?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=ap63AiACvm70

[Bacchus39]

30. Chavez held rallies in NY after he went to the UN

Chavez is always looking for a fight.

[AllieB]

31. I was wondering when you'd show up at the party

;-)

[Bacchus39]

32. just got my invitation

n/t

[AllieB]

35. Have fun!

:popcorn:

[1932]

43. Not in neighborhoods he thought would react poorly, and I'm sure he gave

all the local authorities all the notice they required.

Do you understand the issue?

[Bacchus39]

45. you are speculating

and he was in fact being provocative when he did that.

he is also a head of state, an ambassador is not.

so what is the issue?

[1932]

54. He went to the Bronx, invited by the district's congressman, and the crowd

loved him.

It's hugely different from driving around town, showing up uninvited at events, and then cruising the mall until you cause a disturbance.

Don't you think?

[Judi Lynn]

55. Somewhat! He was definitely invited, unlike asshat Brownfield.

[K-W]

102. Apparently he was heavily guarded,

which only fueled protests.

[HuffleClaw]

34. this is a bushco. GAME of step by step provocation

they'd LOVE for chavez to kick the guy out. he'd be playing right into their hands. this is much like the anti-iran propaganda, only its on a lower setting, and in the end it will result in the us 'taking action to defend itself'.

[Bacchus39]

36. yep, the US provided the fruit and eggs undoubtedly

Chavez's only option is to threaten to expel the ambassador for spoiling all this prescious food.

[David in Canada]

37. Embassies

Embassies are basically legally sanctioned spy houses.

The Ambassador was likely caught working with 'opposition activists' to bring de-mock-racy to Venezuela.

[winston61]

52. just a pack of cia spooks anyway-

throw 'em out, the country will be better off.

[Lori Price CLG]

56. Good! Bye-bye, Bush spy!! n/t

[Tight_rope]

65. Good for Chevez...Do it right now!...Don't wait...Kiss his bloody ass out!

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

128. Lock

flames, off topic posts, no longer latest news
(a week old)