US rule demands proof of citizenship for healthcare

[Eugene]

(Boston Globe)

US rule demands proof of citizenship for healthcare

Law could hurt the state's poorest

By Scott Helman, Globe Staff | April 11, 2006

Almost all of the state's poorest residents will have to show proof of US citizenship
to continue getting medical care by July 1, under a little-noticed federal law that could
endanger coverage for many, as Massachusetts is trying to expand access to healthcare.

Born out of ongoing efforts in Washington to clamp down on illegal immigration, the new federal
requirement compels anyone seeking Medicaid coverage to provide a birth certificate, a passport,
or another form of identification in order to sign up for benefits or renew them.

No such proof is required now.

The requirement was tucked into the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, which President Bush signed
into law earlier this year.

<snip>

Healthcare specialists voiced fear that because many Medicaid recipients -- including
the homeless and the mentally disabled -- won't be able to easily produce documentation
of their citizenship, they will have difficultly receiving care at community health centers,
hospitals, or anywhere else.

<snip>

Full article: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/04/11/us_rule_demands_proof_of_citizenship_for_healthcare
(Boston Globe - free registration may be required)

[etherealtruth]

1. Well, at least "they" can abuse ...

... both the poor and illegal immigrants at the same time. :sarcasm:

[saigon68]

2. What will happen to the "CHILDREN" ?

[DUHandle]

30. In Wisconsin, for now at least

all children are guaranteed a free and appropriate education.

All, by the way, means all.

[saigon68]

70. I think the repuke legislature with Gard at the Helm

Will try to change that.

[OzarkDem]

3. We have to draw a line

with so many legal US residents unable to have access to health care, its unfair to allow coverage for millions of illegal aliens. Millions of Americans are having to pay out of pocket for health care, with many having to declare bankruptcy or be burdened with hundreds of thousand in debt.

Let's figure out how to pay for health care for our own citizens first.

[xchrom]

5. ok -- under your scenario -- someone will get sick and die.

and you expect no opposition to that kind of treatment?

i'll make phony ''papers'' for people if it comes to that.

[OzarkDem]

19. Wake up

Legal US citizens get sick and die every day in the US because they don't have health insurance and can't afford health care. These are Americans who have cancer, diabetes, and other life threatening illnesses.

If we can't afford health care for our own citizens, how can we afford it for those who aren't citizens. Should US citizens have priority?

[xchrom]

34. you wake up -- we can afford health care for u.s. citizens

we simply don't do it.

puh-leez cry me a nationalist river -- your ancestors weren't elcome her either at one point whenever that was -- and the country is always changing.

and it will change again and again.

this is one of those changes.

[LostinVA]

41. Correct -- the government can afford it

They just refuse to.

[MockSwede]

44. Government = Us

Actually, since we're the government, last I knew, and last I knew, we're spending 16% of GDP on healthcare; we cannot afford in current 'system'.

Let's enforce labor laws and prosecute employers that hire illegals and they won't have reason to jump the border anymore and the employers will have to find local legal help and may have to increase wages to reasonable to attract help...

And we shouldn't reward illegal behavior.

Unless you should reward Duke Cunningham with a 'get out of jail free' for selling Congressional influence taking bribes.

[LostinVA]

52. Apples and oranges

Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with no NHS. Talking about not rewarding illegal behavior has nothing to do with the Government not giving ALL citizens decent medical care. The government definitely doesn't equal us -- that's a total joke, but I suspect you know that already. It would take approximately $100 billion to set up a GOOD NHS... that much is spent every two months or so on Iraq. A pissing contest with someone's Daddy is more important to "us" than national health care.

And, the Duke Cunningham straw-man is just oh so cutise for words... what a non sequitur...

[The Straight Story]

105. Wonder how this plays out in smoking in bars and such?

The arugument has been smokers cost us more, so let's make it more illegal places.

Not directing this at you BTW, just tossing it out there...

[Demeter]

54. We're Supposed to Be the Government; But

we've been dismissed, disenfranchised, imprisoned and enslaved these past 6 years. Nice theory, but I wouldn't want to test it today, without an army of millions of pissed off peasants beside me, carrying the de rigeur pitchforks, torches, and RPG launchers.

[0007]

79. The government is corporate American.

:redbox: We the people by the people for the people has been dead for many years.

'Tis all about corporate America and their smarty pant lawyers from the best money can buy institutions.

[primavera]

50. Bravo!

It never fails to disappoint me to see people even here on DU look at our corrupt, exorbitant health care system and conclude that the real problem lies not with the fact that 60% of its costs lie in administrative costs associated with our mindnumbingly complex insurance system, nor with the pharmacuetical industry cramming even more money into its already overstuffed pockets, no, the real problem is that some immigrant kid somewhere might break his arm and get away without paying for an xray. Puhlease. This is exactly like repukes looking to "solve" the healthcare crisis by going after the trial lawyers whose contributions to the overall cost of health care were something like .00001%. Think about it, people: this is a country of 300 million people, only a small percentage of which are illegal aliens, and an even tinier percentage of which are illegal aliens who get freebies from the healthcare system - most illegal aliens are too afaid of being reported to a law enforcement agency to avail themselves of hospital services and simply live without - and an even tinier percent are those illegal aliens who a) take advantage of health care services and b) don't pay the same taxes everyone else pays. And you're tlling me that this tiny percent of a tiny percent of a tiny percent is the real culprit we need to be worried about? Get real, folks. I know illegal immigrants make a nice convenient scapegoat for everything that's wrong with this country, but this is seriously misdirected anger. You want to be pissed off about health care, be pissed off at the corrupt corporations which account for the overwhelming majority of the obscenely inflated costs.

[tomg]

59. Great post. Absolutely dead on. nt

[President Kerry]

83. You did it again. Thoughtful and true.

Great post as usual.

[primavera]

89. Thank you, Mr. President

You know, should you ever need an immigration advisor in your administration, I work cheap! :-)

[reprobate]

99. I'm not pissed at anyone. But let me point out the word 'illegal' in your

post, referring to 'illegal aliens'. I am on priciple against gifting anyone here 'illegally' with the benefits of citizenship. This nation was the goal of immegrants from all over the world for the last two centuries, and they did it legally, plus they took the time and effort to learn to write and speak the language of the nation, they did not demand 'multi-lingual' schools and government communications. That way lies only Balkinization. They waited in line for the quota for their native nation, then worked their asses off to blend in and BECOME Americans.

I am not against any group of people, for they all have something to contribute to the national culture and dialog. What I am opposed to is any one group demanding special treatment that no one else got, or even asked for.

TomePaine.comhas a fascinating piece on other ways to solve the immegration problem. It bares some serious perusal.

<snip>
Beyond changing domestic labor conditions, as the AFL-CIO said in a March policy statement, “any viable solution to this crisis must address the reasons why people are coming to the U.S,” including fixing trade and development policies that now undermine labor protections and wage levels in immigrants’ home countries. And as Jeff Faux of the Economic Policy Institute has explained: “Since NAFTA’s inception in 1994—indeed, for the 20 years of neoliberal ‘reform’—the Mexican middle class has shrunk and the number of poor has expanded . . . So the northward migration continues.”

While states cannot change trade policy, they do have the power through their own purchasing decisions to help end the global sweatshops that drive undocumented immigration. California, Illinois, Maine, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, along with sixty cities, counties and school districts, have changed their procurement policies to ban government purchases from contractors violating internationally-recognized labor right

<end snip>

As to your rant on health care in this country, let me stand and rant right along with you. It's been my opinion for some time that the corporation as practiced in the west will be the cause of the destruction of our civilization. That may sound extreme, but when I look at what they've done to the environment, distribution of wealth, and the destruction of the middle class, it sounds not extreme, but weak.

[judaspriestess]

109. great post #50

I have been saying this in other threads. an illegal immigrant most likely buys a ss card with an invented number to WORK or they go to the IRS and sign up for a TAX ID # its form W-7 and its in Spanish btw (funny how the news doesn't tell you this). They present one or the other with an ID and start working. TAXES ARE BEING TAKEN OUT.
Many of them are eligible for health insurance too.

There are definately illegals who don't have either and get paid cash but puhlease is right that is such a small percentage.

I have a friend, a Caucasian US citizen who had to file bancruptcy because his insurance DENIED his wifes Cancer treatments.
He racked up $200k in medical bills. His wife passed away too. How in the hell was this man going to pay for this.

The other thing, I was reading an article in Money magazine (april 06) and it has a story of this couple, the wife fainted they went to the emergency room and got hit with a $13,000 bill for a few hours in the ER. They fought it and after so many attempts they discoverd the hospital did not "photocopy" her insurance correctly. The bill was reduced to get this, $1,700.
Hospitals are overcharging quite a bit wouldn't you agree? This is one of the reasons health care is so damn out of control.

this is ONE of the few countries left in the entire world who only speak one language. Whats wrong with being bi-lingual.

[rodeodance]

133. thanks very much.

[superconnected]

93. Good luck dealing with people who by into the republican

hate scam.

I figure it takes a bigot to begin with, to swallow the propaganda that immigrants are the problem.

[struggle4progress]

98. Next they'll claim they can deport people who can't prove citizenship.

Trouble-maker? Oops! Your birth certificate disappeared. No proof of citizenship? Aw, too bad. Off for a quick INS administrative hearing you go. Look, you've got a plane to catch ...

[rodeodance]

132. There is enough to go around-We just are too greedy!

......If we can't afford health care for our own citizens, how can we afford it for those who aren't citizens. Should US citizens have priority?

[OzarkDem]

23. Sorry to say

it happens every day to US citizens.

This is just one more reason why unfettered illegal immigration will devastate our country.

[xchrom]

35. unfettered any kind of immigration has never devastated our country.

simply given nationalistic worry warts -- warts.

[Igel]

49. We have yet to have unfettered immigration.

Even the current round of illegal immigration is fettered.

There are mild constraints on illegal immigration from Mexico. Mexico is a constraint on immigration from south of their border. The oceans are constraints on immigration from other places. There's a reason sub-Saharan Africans tend to illegally immigrate into Spain and Italy, much less often to Sa'udi Arabia, and not all that frequently arrive in California.

Unfettered immigration would be a nightmare. Even the mostly fettered illegal immigration has proven to be a problem. Nearly 1/3 of Latinos in the US are here illegally.

[xchrom]

60. ''illegal'' immigration became a problem AFTER

we restricted crossing the mexican and u.s. with some ease -- people came to work here cyclically -- in the late eighties we made it more difficult to get in and to get out.

now people who imagine that the ''illegals'' are somehow competing for something that they would otherwise have -- they are up in arms.

well those folks are not taking from them -- except in their frightened heads.

if the american worker wants to improve his lot -- he will demand a return of manufacturing to the u.s. along side of the growing service sector.

what is happening to the u.s. worker is that corporations are trying to specialize the american economy -- and that creates real dangers.

economies are not eco systems -- and specialization will almost assuredly create a disaster.

[LeftHander]

55. SO US Citizens first...then maybe white middle class next.....

Your nationalistic argument to allow only U.S. citizens access is akin to facism. Why not just go all the way and make it so only native born white people with jobs have access to healthcare....that is pretty much what is happening now. Why not just side with the right and legtimize it?

Have you no decency.

So hand a million or so undocumented children another brick to swim with in this sea of hate we call a nation.


:puke: on you.

[Lindacooks]

72. Wrong.

What's devastating our country is massive tax cuts for the rich and an illegal war that's costing billions of dollars. The cost of illegal immigrants compared to that is a pittance.

[kurth]

6. This is fucking insane

Why should American taxpayers have to pick up the tab for the millions of FOREIGNERS who came here illegally and who are staying here ILLEGALLY?

Take care of our own first.

[bowens43]

8. What's fucking insane is so many here

putting money above human lives. Pathetic. I thought selfishness and greed were conservative values, apparently I was wrong. I guess they are American values.

[OzarkDem]

20. They do it every day

to their fellow Americans.

[mondo joe]

26. Every person, you included, does it every single day.

Are there homeless people in your city?

Are you feeding them and housing them?

Could you sell your computer, turn off your internet access and give them the money instead?

[President Kerry]

85. nice try..

a) You don't know what anybody's done for their own community or the homeless. All you know is what you've done yourself.

b) Speaking up against inhumane laws and voting makes a great difference. The internet happens to be a great venue to do that.

Overall, it's just a very cynical accusation.

[mondo joe]

100. To the contrary, I know at least one thing, and

that is that everyone here has at least a computer and internet access (except for a potential minority at the library or only at work).

And I never once suggested or implied that people shouldn't speak up against inhumane laws.

But while it's easy to say what the country should do with it's resources, it's interesting to see that people do try to MANAGE their own.

[rman]

88. only a collective effort can make a real difference

[mondo joe]

101. Then we'll need to be collectively mindful of the choices we make

about our resources.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Most of the third world has perfectly functioning health care systems

Citizens die here for lack of care. Most illegal aliens have a medical system that they can rely upon, which, unfortunately, is more than we can say for our own system.

The main problem with the new rule is that it's ineffective and inefficient. Illegal immigrants will still get medical care (from an ER doctor) the hospital will just transfer the costs to the paying customers.

Perhaps the cost should be billed as a tariff on goods coming from those countries. It'd provide some incentive for other countries to limit illegal emigration.

I don't disagree with the basic point; we built our social, governmental and medical systems primarily to serve us.

Is it heartless to refuse to wait in line while all the neighbors use your kitchen?

[alarimer]

127. I think they would prefer illegals to just drop dead

It is beyond sick and disgusting to turn away sick and injured people from getting the care they need simply because they lack "papers". I know of no health care professional worth their salt who would turn away someone who needed their help. I defy some of those saying it is okay to deny health care to anyone who needs it to look some sick or injured person in their eyes and say "I am not going to help you". They are no better than murderers. It is disgusting and neither liberal nor progressive but simply typical American selfishness: "Fuck you, I've got mine."

[darkmaestro019]

13. Human decency? (nt)

[DBoon]

58. don't illegals pay any taxes?

When did we exempt non-citizens from having to pay taxes?

Can they buy goods without paying sales tax?

Are landlords exempt from paying property taxes if their rent-paying tenants are illegal immigrants?

[President Kerry]

84. Unbelievable.

How very charitable of you. Lots of illegals work backbreaking jobs we don't even read about, working for peanuts, often in slave-like conditions. And when it comes to one of them NEEDING medical care (we're talking about a life-and-death necessity here), you're going to deny it to them because this gov't is too busy rewarding it's next billionaire in line with a tax cut and buying $500M fighter jets?? Gimme a fucking break!

[bowens43]

7. Unbelievable.

Why are the lives of "our own" more important the n lives of undocumented workers? Hint:they aren't. I am so sick and tired of hearing people put money above human lives. It's disgusting and I am ashamed to live in a country where so many feel this way. We are the wealthiest country on the planet we CAN care for those who need to be cared for and we should. If we have to raise taxes and socialize health care to do it , so be it.

[Mnemosyne]

16. I never got the memo either bowens.

I am also sick of the inflated ego of those that place American lives as sacred above others. I have gone without health insurance many times in my life, but it never occurred to me to want someone else denied care because I couldn't have it.

If we can spend billions killing those in foreign countries, we can care for the sick here, no matter what their standing.

Denying health care to the ill, no matter what their citizenship, is despicable.

So much for compassion in this country.

"Whatsoever you do for one of the least of these, you did unto me." Matthew 25: 45

I guess these words only matter if it costs nothing. No one should ever be denied health care when ill. I don't care if they are from Andromeda.

[OzarkDem]

22. Do you think its ok

for other Americans to die for lack of health care?

Do you think the health care needs of illegal aliens have a higher priority than, say, uninsured women in the US who need treatment for breast cancer? Do you realize thousands of women every year die from that disease simply because they couldn't afford treatment?

[Rose Siding]

27. Here's some info that lends perspective to your concern-

It addresses the straw man that scapegoats undocumented workers for the sorry state we've made of our healthcare system-

snip>
MICHAEL SAYS: 1. The place increasingly difficult demands on an already overloaded medical system and inability to pay exacerbated by showing up for treatment at emergency rooms where they cannot be refused.

ALISA SAYS: My dear Michael: By far the biggest strain on our healthcare system is the 45 million uninsured American citizens who are far more likely than any undocumented immigrant to seek the free treatment you describe here. Now, before you say, “yeah, but they’re 'murkin citizens,” consider that many of them are too poor to pay taxes. So your taxes are going to pay for their free health care. This crisis has been created by our being the only Industrialized Western Democracy on EARTH without universal health care. If your concern is truly about taxpayer money being spent to pay for other people’s healthcare, you should address this problem honestly and with the correct facts.

For the record, 45 million is a number larger than the entire elderly population of this nation, larger than the entire African American population of this nation, larger than the entire LEGAL Latino population of this nation and larger than the entire country of Canada, and more than four times the entire population of Greece.

The number of American citizens without healthcare has SOARED under President Bush. The number of uninsured Americans has GROWN by 5.2 million since 2000. Most of these people are non-Hispanic, poor whites. In fact, under our current president we have witnessed the single largest increase in poverty among white Americans IN HISTORY. Could it be that you leaders would like to distract you from this and other shocking facts about their lack of leadship? Could it be that scapegoating “illegals” is a convenient way to draw the attention of concerned Americans like you from the real issues that face us all?

Finally, I will leave you with the key finding of a report by the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities regarding healthcare coverage in our nation for 2004, the most recent year for which data is available: The percentage of native citizens who were uninsured rose in 2004, while the percentage of non-citizen immigrants who lacked coverage fell.

I appreciate your alarm, but as you can see it is being misdirected by a sophisticated propaganda machine whose main puppets are Fox News, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. The facts do not support your concerns.

http://alisavaldesrodriguez.blogspot.com/2006/04/more-stupidity-in-my-in-box.html

[Mnemosyne]

33. Great link Rose, thank you!

:hi: :toast:

[Mnemosyne]

32. Of course not, how ridiculous.

I am talking of simple human decency here OD.

NO ONE should have to suffer for the greed of this administration. Yet hundreds of thousands here and abroad are doing just that.

Do you think that the innocent Iraqis deserve health care from us due to the damage we've done? They have very little now thanks to the US occupation. Or should we give the health care that may be setup there to help those in the US instead?

We can spend billions/trillions on killing, yet everyone is screaming about the cost of illegals much more than the cost of occupation to our economy?

It makes no sense to me.

All should have health care when needed. I almost died from lack of insurance, so I do understand the frustration of those without. Priority should be given to those that are the sickest.

It's a humanitarian thing in me I guess.

[Kailassa]

80. If you think that this law will help those currently not treated

then you are a brainwashed fool.

The Government is not redistributing money withing the health system, they are taking money out of the health system.

[President Kerry]

87. I believe your anger is mischanneled.

You're angry at the most vulnerable sector of the population. Illegal immigrants are NOT free-riders. They work, and work very hard, for below-market wages. I don't have a problem with making those JOBS illegal, but not the people doing them. All people, regardless of their origin, are human beings who deserve to be treated with respect and given some basic rights to live. Callousness of some people here is breathtaking.

[OzarkDem]

21. The US can't be effective

in controlling health care costs and providing care for people unless it can manage the system for its own citizens.

Fewer and fewer Americans have access to life saving care today. Uncompensated care is throwing our system of health care into chaos and putting a huge burden on the national health care infrastructure.

Its sheer folly to think you can improve the situation by adding millions of illegal aliens to the system.

[President Kerry]

86. Right. On. n/t

[CornField]

24. There is a problem -- but it is with our bureaucracy

Of all the countries in the world, the US pays the most per capita of *any* (note that this includes all of those nations who have healthcare for all citizens).

http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

The overhead cost of operating the United States health-care system is more than three times that of running Canada's on a per capita basis, and the gap is getting bigger, according to a study published today in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Savings gleaned from a national health insurance system like Canada's would be enough to provide medical insurance for the 41 million Americans who now lack coverage, the researchers said.

The study puts the administrative cost of the U.S. system at $294 billion per year, compared to about $9.4 billion in Canada. That translates to a per-person cost of $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada. A similar study, conducted in 1991, put per-capita costs in the U.S. at $450 and Canadian costs at one-third of that.

The study by Dr. Steffi Woolhandler of the Harvard School of Medicine found that Americans spend more on administrative costs because of the many private companies supplying insurance coverage. The multitude of companies create increased paperwork while Canadian doctors send their claims to a single insurer, the government.

It's pretty easy to take the healthcare industry and insurance industry lines of thinking on this because they are always shoving them in people's faces. Even I will agree that my private insurance premiums have gone through the roof over the past 5-10 years as more and more uninsured immigrants come into Iowa for work. When it comes to something like healthcare, however, these small measures do nothing to cure the total system failure.

It's time for national healthcare.

[mondo joe]

25. Let me tell you the problem with THIS line.

And I do agree we need to provide for our own citizens first.

The problem is that this line in particular burdens the wrong 2 groups: healthcare providers and US citizens who are poor/disabled/impaired. Verification takes the longest time with the people least able to handle it, and takes resources where they can least be afforded.

In addition, there is a real public health concern. By denying care to those who can't document residence, you are increasing the risk of TB, influenza, STDs and a host of other problems.

We need to manage our resources. But not in ways that cost us MORE down the line.

[kineneb]

46. care for health first

then worry about citizenship. Period. Otherwise we all risk a serious public health nightmare of people wandering around with seriously contageous diseases. The problem with health care in the US is that it has become a Profit-Making industry. It should not be. Ultimately, we are all only as healthy as the least healthy among us (to parapharase Jesus).

[donco6]

68. False dichotomy.

We EITHER let US citizens have healthcare at the exclusion of anyone else, OR we let illegals have it BEFORE everyone else.

Logical fallacy. What's to say both or neither cannot be true? Perhaps we can afford it for all, if it weren't so larded with profit for pharmas and medical industry. Or maybe it's all an impossible pipe dream, in which case all the other industrialized nations who are doing it must be lying to us.

[Shakespeare]

76. And THAT is key....

"all the other industrialized countries who are doing it must be lying to us."

Yup. Aren't we all blindered and myopic when it comes to that one--we're the only major industrialized country who can't get its shit together on national healthcare. It really is shameful.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. As opposed to the illogical fallacy

If pigs had wings they could fly.

Our current medical system is not capable of caring for everyone. If the fact that americans die for want of the money were not sufficient incentive for us to reform our system, then it's unlikely that supporting the accelerating influx of illegals will.

The current car is out of gas. Theorizing that we could take all our friends in our new bus if we had a bus... and gas... is a pointless exercise.

[superconnected]

92. wow.. brilliant... I'm sure the neocons would love that, do love that

are going off that.

Wonder why. Oh, because they hate immigrants.

Because their little minds can't see the big picture that the real problem here isn't the immigrants.

because they're just bigots.

Yeah, thats why.

[Flucius]

95. Bingo!

Exactly my thoughts. There are, for lack of a better term, too many "bleeding hearts" who think it immoral to turn anyone away. That's all fine and good, but who pays for it? I hate to bring cold, hard reality into the equation, but you can't ignore economics; the money has to come from somewhere. Moreover, ask yourself this: if the tables were turned, and a U.S. resident was illegally in some foreign country, would they get this type of treatment? In some I'm sure they would, but in many they wouldn't.

Taking a glance at the thread, a lot of people seem to think it would be cruel and heartless to turn anyone away. Be that as it may, if the rest of the world suddenly decided to dump all its desperate, starving masses on the U.S., it would bankrupt the nation. It's all well and good to want to do the humane thing, but you can't save the world -- and you shouldn't try. I don't understand how you can advocate isolationism and non-intervention in foreign affairs while simultaneously not wanting to turn anyone away from the perks of U.S. residency or citizenship. (Maybe this comparison is a stretch, but both entail investing large sums of money with uncertain returns.) A government's job is to look after its own citizens first, and worry about the rest of the world later.

[dysfunctional press]

124. the american taxpayer pays for health coverage for iraqi citizens

why then shouldn't we provide healthcare for non-americans that actually live and work in the u.s.?

[Kutjara]

4. Fabulous

As the world gears up to cope with the inevitable Bird Flu pandemic, we in the good old USA are disenfranchising a whole sector of the population from access to healthcare. That'll be great when everyone starts getting the sniffles.

We don't need to worry about immigration, guys. I predict the population of the US will be under 150 million by 2009.

Those crafty Republicans. I thought they didn't believe in natural selection.

[rodeodance]

9. what a nightmare for patients and staff! And Feds can deny payment.

[twiterpatted]

12. The FED should not require the private sector to do its job!

[displacedtexan]

10. Jesus wept.

[Mnemosyne]

17. I imagine Jesus has been sobbing hysterically

for the last few years. :(

[jwirr]

39. Thank you.

[twiterpatted]

11. Papers Please!!, Where are your Papers!!!! Give me your papers!!!

Hell No!!!, Not in America.

I say NO to "papers please"
I say NO to a "huge fence"
I say no to a fascist America!

[darkmaestro019]

14. What you said! And welcome to DU! (nt)

[Mnemosyne]

18. They were also trying to make priests ask worshipers

receiving any human services from the church to turn in illegals.

A Cardinal ordered the priests to ignore the request and break the law if necessary. Good for him!

http://www.billpress.com/columns/030206.html

No Green Card, No Communion

snip>

It’s one thing when an average citizen defies the law. It’s another when a Cardinal of the Catholic Church orders all priests of his archdiocese to defy the law. But that’s exactly what Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles did. And he’s right.

Mahony was reacting to a draconian bill passed by the House of Representatives that would require churches and other social organizations to ask immigrants for legal documentation before helping them with social services. If it becomes law, in other words, the bill would turn churches into an arm of the federal government.

Can you think of anything more anti-American? This is the ultimate test of the relationship between church and state. Because, if it means anything, separation of church and state means it is not the role of the state to enforce religious doctrine, and it is not the role of the church to enforce civil law.

Can you think of anything more anti-Christian? Challenging a person’s legal status is not the church’s job, insists the cardinal. “The church is here to serve people. We’re not about to become immigration agents,” Mahony told The Los Angeles Times. “The whole concept of punishing people who serve immigrants is un-American. If you take this to its logical, ludicrous extreme, every single person who comes up to receive Holy Communion, you have to ask them to show papers.”

snip>

Welcome to DU twiterpatted! :hi:

[Critters2]

111. Not worshippers

People asking for assistance.

[Mnemosyne]

116. My bad. But many of those asking for help could

also be worshipers. Either way, I am glad to see the Cardinal standing up to *co!

[leftchick]

15. now would be a good time Catholics to break with the Repukes

I am one of the very few Liberal Catholics in my Parish. This issue might just pull more Catholics away from the repukes.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Republicans hate Latinos

and they love to bomb and kill brown people!

[Benhurst]

29. Yeah, like being an American citizen guarantees you anything

but the opportunity to help pay for the Bush Crime Family's military industrial complex.

BushAmerica: not a society, a social disease.

[Toots]

31. Obviously a Christian Nation did this

It is exactly how Christ would have treated them "aliens". :shrug:

[jwirr]

40. The pukes should read about the woman at the well. She was

a foreigner to Jesus.

[mondo joe]

43. Since I'm not a Christian, and don't think Christianity should

be codified in US law, I don't really give a crap what Christ would do.

That said, there are perfectly logical, wholly secular and even self-interested reasons to oppose this legislation.

[Hekate]

97. Just calling the Republifundies on their BS

You don't have to be a Christian to do that, just have a nodding acquaintance with the New Testament they so badly abuse.

However, it makes my heart rejoice when thinking Christians actually stand up to the hypocrisy and cold-heartedness that characterize the Bush admin. We all desperately need for them to take back their own religion, because they are the overwhelming majority in the US.

Jesus preached love and compassion. Kurt Vonnegut asked why it is that so many claiming to be Christians loudly demand that the 10 Commandments be posted on public buildings, but never speak of the Beatitudes in the same way. The ones demanding we "return" to "Biblical law" misread the Old Testament in the harshest and most punitive way imaginable.

There's plenty of evidence of mercy and social justice in the OT, but since the Talibaptists also talk about Jeeeeeezus so often, the rest of us are not only within our rights but downright obligated to point out the error of their ways using their own alleged point of reference. The Sermon on the Mount is an excellent place to start.

Throughout US history, Christians have been inspired by their religion to participate in social justice movements. The abolition of slavery and child labor laws are among the most notable achievements of this impulse.

Hekate

[Bridget Burke]

36. This law also applies to LEGAL immigrants.

Yes, the country needs better health care for all. So we need to work for that, instead of putting the burden on all immigrants.

A non-diseased populace is better for Public Health. (Obviously, the "compassion" argument is lost on this crowd.)

[jwirr]

37. In order to get Welfare of any kind you need to show your

birth certificate and you always have had to. Social Security also asks for a birth certificate or baptismal record to verify your age. This has been true since 1958 to today.

[Kailassa]

81. Healthcare is not welfare.

Whether you want people here or not, it is in everyones' interests that the populace is healthy.

Healthy adults can work.
Healthy children can grow up to be assets to the whole of society.

Sick people can cost a lot more in the long run and might even spread disease.

[jwirr]

102. Welfare is not a bad word in my vocabulary! And in most states

you apply for these programs at a "Welfare" office.

[Kailassa]

106. What does that have to do wih whether or not illegals,

their children, the homeless, destitute and mentally incompetant should be given healthcare,
unless it's being put forward as a reason for not giving it to them?

[Joanne98]

123. And you can get your fake birth certificate at this web site....

In case anybody wants to know how easy it is.

http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/spserv/birtcert.html

[mondo joe]

38. This could only create public health nightmares that negatively

impact everyone - legal or not.

You might produce a healthcare system that won't touch people whocan't verify citizenship, but I assure you infectious diseases will not discriminate one way or another.

[suffragette]

42. This law, like Sensenbrenner's legislation, is to compel social agencies

to become an unofficial arm of US ICE (formerly INS). It's to take us in the direction of being willing to perform law enforcement functions for agencies whether we are part of those agencies or not.
This is in addition to the excellent points made by others in this thread that it is inhumane and shortsighted at its core.
Is this the nation we want to be?

[Solly Mack]

45. Oh, that's just fucking brilliant

I don't want people to be afraid to seek medical care - they just might have a contagious disease.
It's stupid to think an illegal immigrant is going to go running back to the country they came from just to get medical care. They're just going to ignore their illness. They'll just die and if they do have something that can spread, it WILL spread.

Doesn't anyone fucking think in Washington?

To be so fucking cruel and stupid as to think denying health care will put a dent in illegal immigration.

It's just driving people deeper into hiding.

Back home, in the early 90's, we found several cases of MDR(multi-drug resistant)TB among immigrants from Mexico. We were able to deal with it and keep it from spreading because people WERE NOT AFRAID to seek medical care. And FYI, those people were not deported and no one turned them in - we were too worried about them dying and too worried about a potential outbreak.

This law is not just going to kill illegal immigrants and force them deeper into hiding - it's endangering everyone.

What happened to compassion? What the fuck is wrong with people?

Or maybe the law is also really geared at the poor, at the homeless, at the mentally ill - and saying "illegal immigration" is just a handy excuse to kill off all the "undesirables"

Got news for everyone - if you ain't one of the elite....you're on somebody's list of undesirables.

[NYC]

65. That same thinking applies to the uninsured.

We have uninsured (not eligible for Medicaid) people who spread contagious diseases because they go untreated.

If the U.S. government doesn't care that uninsured people spread diseases, why would they care if illegal immigrants (and citizens who have difficulty coming up with birth certificates*)spread diseases?

If they cared, we would have national health care like every other civilized country. We spend a higher per capita $ amount on health care, but don't actually receive health care for that money. Much of it is wasted on paperwork and profits.

*Not everyone has a birth certificate or passport. If a person doesn't bother getting one before it is needed, will that person spread disease while untreated, waiting for the official copy of the birth certificate to arrive? This plan is not intended to turn away citizens, but it very well might. Natural born citizens would be likelier to lack the paperwork. Naturalized citizens would be likelier to have their papers on hand. So how many "entitled to care" citizens would be turned away?

[Solly Mack]

71. No argument from me. The lack & quality of health care in America

is a shame and a disgrace. I wouldn't punish anyone for not having insurance, or give them sub-standard care because all they had was Medicaid (which I've seen), and I wouldn't punish people for the lack of "papers, please" either. Heck, Americans with insurance face battles just trying to get treatments and the medications they need. I repeat, health care in America is a shame and a disgrace. No argument here on that.


It's not an "illegal", "legal" thing with me...it's a people thing.

[NYC]

73. It is a people thing.

Which proves this is not a government of the people, by the people, for the people.

[Solly Mack]

75. I'm in the choir on that one

America is not a government of/by/for the people.

[Kailassa]

82. It's just another step on the neocon agenda.

Which is to reduce everyone who is not in the few "top" families to a status lower than that of slaves.

And certain idiots here rub there hands in glee as they stand on the tracks, watching the train approach, believing it will take them for a ride.

And they never look down to notice the tracks twisting and tightening around their ankles.


Good work, Solly. Don't give up.

[anotherdrew]

126. Doesn't anyone think in Washington? NO thinking is not permitted n/t

[lovuian]

48. The Republicans put the screws on with Healthcare

I knew this was coming and thats why Nobody was talking about it... the issue is 1 billion dollars going to pay for ER visits by ilegal immigrants which they were not paying for...
Bush put it in a bill to help the hospitals on the borders from going bankrupt...

It was that serious...

now a forged passport or a forged birth certificate or a forged drivers license will get them
convicted if found out...

The hospitals now are interlinked by a computer system

they will be traceable now...

You can't have Americans filing chapter 7 in the bankruptcy law for catrostrophic illness and have ilegals getting their healthcare free... just doesn't compute...

[Igel]

51. Any idea who the people are that won't have to show

proof of US citizenship?

"Almost" implies "not all", but I didn't catch who's exempted from the requirement: is it just referring to those getting emergency health care, or is there some additional exemption?

[Bridget Burke]

62. The white ones....

It sounds like all government supported healthcare will be limited to CITIZENS.

[Orsino]

53. Culture of life.

Baloney.

[DBoon]

56. and will we require proof of citizenship before accepting their taxes?

Or will we graciously allow them to pay for government services that they are not allowed to use?

This sounds like a great fiscal argument for MORE illegal immigrants - they pay the taxes so citizens can get the benefits

[Bridget Burke]

63. This rule applies to Legal Immigrants as well.

And those folks pay their full measure of taxes.

(Although even the undocumented pay Sales Tax & (perhaps indirect) Property Tax.)

[Critters2]

110. Illegals with phony documents pay FICA, Social Security, etc

Their taxes are withheld, as if they were citizens. It keeps the INS from looking too closely at their employers. I learned this when the Social Security Admin contacted me because someone was using my SSN on their W-4. They told me it was probably randomly-generated. There are computer programs that do this. Mighty ingenious!

[truebrit71]

57. How does this impact green-card holders who do NOT have US passports...

...but pay into the coffers every paycheck? If I can't use the money later they had better stop taking it out of my paycheck now....

[ckramer]

61. Dogs are treated better than human

Shame. Give up the moral high ground already.

Anti-terrorism would be a joke if one couldn't control its border.

[Shakespeare]

64. It is immoral to deny healthcare to ANYONE.

Don't try to obscure that fact by arguing economics. I'll say it one more time: it is IMMORAL to deny anyone healthcare.

[NYC]

66. Yes it is immoral, and doctors and hospitals

should not be placed in the predicament.

If the U.S. government does not want illegal immigrants, the U.S. government should do something about it. They should not pass the buck to doctors, nurses, and hospitals whose purpose is to serve the sick.

[anotherdrew]

120. very right. they're using docs as cops n/t

[The Flaming Red Head]

67. So during the next great epidemic

We'll all be a little safer from illegal immigration

[caledesi]

69. Let 'em die! That's what Jesus would say.

:sarcasm:

[davepc]

74. How does Canada handle this issue?

Do their border hospitals routinely deal with uninsured Americans seeking care without documentation?

[anotherdrew]

121. we would be turned away without a doubt.

illegal aliens need to go home, period.

[Tight_rope]

77. I have no response..I'm in shock over human cruelty!

[MurrayDelph]

78. Helloooo Tuberculosis!

People,

Their diseases are our diseases. Arguing that you don't want to spend "our health care money"
on a certain group of people is inviting them to become breeding grounds for disease. Now
the last time I looked, people who are here legally are genetically "similar"-enough to those who
are not to be able to catch those same diseases, especially if those diseases have a place
with which to thrive.

So if you don't want to do it merely because it is the right thing to do, take care of them
out of "enlightened self-interest"

[superconnected]

96. excellent post.

[Hekate]

90. >cough< >hack< >spit< Don't mind the case of TB next to you on the bus...

... or in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant!

Hekate

[Rainscents]

91. Shit, this is another one of those bill it was hiden from the public!

These basters wants to kill off everyone.

[superconnected]

94. And there are du members up there, glad to join them.

which is a double scare.

[sweetheart]

104. the law is silly

If you have a broken arm and come to my door,
i'll give you whatever treatment i can.

The hypocritical oath that a doctor takes says they
need to take money for every hour of work and no treatment
should be given for free, not a single treatment should
result in a healing that does not benefit a drug company
by at least 300 dollars. Ain't hypocrates great.

[earth mom]

107. This thread is SO frustrating.

:argh:

The insanity of the arguments on this thread is absolutely mind boggling.

Citizens of THIS COUNTRY are DYING because they can't afford health care or medication or operations!

But forget about them because citizens of ANOTHER COUNTRY are more important!

:wtf:

We need to take care of our own first. PERIOD.

[Lars39]

108. Taking care of our own includes treating those who would be infectious.

Ever heard of Typhoid Mary?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

112. IMHO, you need to change your boardname.

[BuddhaGirl]

115. my...how utterly democratic and progressive of you

:puke:

[flashdebadge]

117. I agree with you. One of the reasons health care is so expensive is

that for a lot of people it's free! People who come in to this country illegally and have children pass the expensed of their hospital bills on to the rest of us. There are also people out there that CAN afford health insurance but elect not to purchase it. They cost us money as well. The biggest problem however continues to be illegals immigrants receiving health care. They go to the emergency room for EVERYTHING! Bug bite, scratch, cough, you name it. I've spoken with several health officials and this has had a devastating effect on the cost to the health care industry. Some hospitals are close to filing BANKRUPTCY!

[2Design]

128. been drinking the kool aid ?????

[flashdebadge]

129. What a thoughtful response.

[IndyJones]

130. You got it!. You must live in CA, too. And 87 hospitals so far.

[kentuck]

113. My wife works at a community health center....

and she is distraught about this story....she says it is going ot be a disaster - even for some people that are legal but don't have hte wherewithal to get the documentation needed. It's a travesty...

[rodeodance]

134. It always comes down to situations like the one you just wrote about.

[classics]

114. Someone please tell me I'm wrong...

I can go into a welfare office and get denied for Medicare because I 'make too much', BUT, if I lie and say I have no ID or SSN, they will give it to me?!

Tell me I'm wrong, please, before I go insane.

[Vinca]

118. I cannot afford health insurance, but I'm too well off for Medicaid.

What's wrong with this picture? My tax dollars (self employed)are funding a system that wouldn't help me if I had a life-threatening condition. It isn't right. I'm all for providing health care for everyone, but wouldn't it be nice to start with people like me?

[anotherdrew]

119. plenty o' free healthcare in Mexico

[Vinca]

122. For Americans? nt

[anotherdrew]

125. no. we can go whistle

better not get caught in mexico undocumented or you'll be paying the authorities big money or if not be in real trouble.

[rodeodance]

131. so, this their answer to reducing the deficit. !!

The requirement was tucked into the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, which President Bush signed
into law earlier this year.

[rodeodance]

135. It is a simple minded 'solution" to the problem posed by our 'leaders" who

are afraid the confront the big issue of corporate greed in health care and insurance and pharmceutical industry.

[daringthedevil]

136. Usually a commonsense answer is simple one.

[The Magistrate]

137. That, Sir, Is Not Much Of A Recommendation

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is obvious, simple, and wrong."

[daringthedevil]

138. Yes, but this is a simple problem.

[The Magistrate]

139. Not Really, Sir

Both the requirement to prove citizenship, and the consequences of any refusal, are quite complex matters.

What is the standard for proof? Are emergency rooms to employ expert detectors of forgeries along with their medical personnel? Do persons carry their identity papers on them at all times? Is there a birth certificate in your wallet, Sir, as we correspond? What are your views on a national identity card?

What do you think would be the consequences of turning non-citizens away? If it is someone with an infectious and contagious disease, such as tuberculosis or measels, does doing so not harm the general community of citizens? How much suffering do you expect people to stand by and watch inflicted without protest, or even vengeance? Suppose a person in the midst of a heart-attack shows up at the hospital, are they simply to be booted out to die for lack of papers?

"People need to think things all the way through...."