Officer: Alleged Victim 'Passed-Out Drunk' (Duke dancer)

[seriousstan]

A woman who claims she was raped by members of Duke University's lacrosse team was described as "just passed-out drunk" by one of the first police officers to see her, according to a recording of radio traffic obtained Thursday by The Associated Press.

The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else's car.

---cut---

The woman has told police she and another stripper hired to dance at the party arrived at 11:30 p.m. March 13. The pair reportedly left the house a short time later, fearing for their safety. The accuser told police the two were coaxed back into the house with an apology, at which point they were separated. That's when she said she was dragged into a bathroom and raped, beaten and choked for a half hour.

At 12:53 a.m., police received a 911 call from a woman complaining that she had been called racial slurs by white men gathered outside the home where the party took place.

The defense has said it believes the second dancer at the party made that call. The 911 call from the grocery store security guard was placed at 1:22 a.m.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/13/D8GVCKT81.html

[Psephos]

1. Wow n/t

[cantstandbush]

136. So what if they poured alcohol down her throat? It's been done before. nt

[adigal]

143. What is they gave her that date rape drug??

That makes one seem as though one is totally out of it. That may be some of the evidence the DA is talking about.

[IsItJustMe]

2. There is no telling why she passed out. I image if she was choked and

raped, that could have been a reason.

Cops arn't doctors.

[hexola]

3. I noticed a bit of inconsistency between the Kroger call and the cop

The Kroger caller makes it sound as if she is concious...if not a bit combative. But then the cop makes her sound passed out.

I suppose the obvious answer is she passed out in the meantime...

[LisaL]

7. Kroger clerk also described her as drunk/intoxicated.

Apparently when she arrived at the party, if you believe the players, she kept passing out.

[Karmakaze]

43. I disagree...

The 911 call from the grocery store security guard was placed at 1:22 a.m.

In it, the caller says, "Um, the problem is ... it's a lady in somebody else's car and she will not get out of their car. She's like, she's like intoxicated, drunk or something. She's, I mean, she won't get out of the car, period. "

Actually it doesnt sound like she is that concious to me. I have seen plenty of people who were "passed out drunk" and when you try to get them to move, they simply pull away, mumble and try to go back to sleep.

So, I would say the 911 call and the officers description do indeed reinforce each other.

[hexola]

50. I disagree...

"drunk or inoxicated, or something..." is pretty wide open. But if someone is out cold - thats a more specific condition. The call is more about a person who wont get out of a car, not so much an intoxicated person. Why didnt this caller say she was "passed out?" Its not that unusal choice of words.

Saying she "won't get out of the car, PERIOD" - implys that she is being defiant.

Also - (and I cant find the refererence) - it seems the intial conversation between the cop and dispatch was to take her to the 24 hour lockup...not something you would do with a unconcious person.

Where was she taken after the police arrived?

[Karmakaze]

58. You are assuming the cop...

made his call almost at the same time as the 911 call.

So someone really drunk who is near unconcious and refusing to move could easily be totally out 5 minutes later when the cop has arrived and is making his call.

[kittykitty]

65. See reply #3

Yes I did consider that...

edit: oops, forgot to change accounts...at my mom's house now...

comment by hexola...

[LisaL]

99. Cops call came about 10 minutes later, after the Kroger's guard

call. On the phone during the Kroger's guard 911 call, you can also hear a third person, most likely the second stripper, telling the 911 dispatcher that the alleged victim was drunk.
So, now there are three people, a cop, a Kroger's guard, and the second stripper (most likely) saying the woman was drunk. By the way, the defense claim they have no idea where this cop took the alleged victim, or what time she arrived at the hospital.
And it's also kind of peculiar that the hospital report does not say the woman was drunk. Although it could have been hours later, after she was picked up in Kroger's parking lot, so I suppose she could have sobered up.
But still, I hope at least they did a tox screen on her.

[knitter4democracy]

4. Rohypnol (roofies) can appear that way, too.

The cop doesn't know which it was, and how does he know what happened there? This is just another way to discredit the victim.

[LisaL]

8. She apparently described her rape as her fighting the three men, breaking

off her nails, etc. Do you think someone given a date rape drug would do that? The drugged women don't even remember what had happened to them. Her story doesn't make any sense to me. Add to that there is no DNA to indicate any Duke player had any kind of sex with her.

[radwriter0555]

26. It's entirely likely that her assailants used condoms. There is no reason

they wouldn't.

[LisaL]

27. Condoms leave behind a residue.

Which was not found in her, according to the defense.

[radwriter0555]

31. There is no such thing as a test for latex residue.

It doesn't exist.

It's a ruse made up to get false-report victims to confess.

[LisaL]

37. Hello?

"When sexual assailants wear condoms to commit their crimes, they
attempt to protect themselves from disease and apprehension at
the same time. Although these crimes become more difficult to
solve, investigators should not overlook the evidentiary
potential of condom traces. By considering the possibility of
condom use while processing the crime scene, supervising medical
examinations, and conducting interviews, investigators can ensure
that this valuable evidence receives the attention it deserves."



http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/may964.txt

[Pachamama]

44. "According to the Defense" - Key Words & not in a court of trial

The defense lawyers are clearly trying to discredit the rape victim and make her statements and any possible charges seem unfounded.

Yes, condoms leave behind residue...and the facts and findings have not been released other than "statements" by the defense.

And keep in mind - the DA keeps saying he has other evidence and doesn't need DNA....

[radwriter0555]

49. No, it's "...some condoms can leave behind..." This is not proof

positive that a crime has or has not been committed.

It can be introduced to encourage doubt, but to hang a whole case on such frail evidence has not happened, since chain of evidence would have to be incredibly detailed and methodical.

Considering she was a black stripper, you can be sure that didn't happen.

A nice white girl wearing pearls and manolo blahniks from Hyannisport, most defitely would be far more likely to undergo the extreme chain of evidence testing required... but, let's sadly be real.

These guys have really good, very highly paid lawyers.

She's toast.

[LisaL]

51. He is saying that after he got DNA results back.

Before that, he was saying that DNA will identify the guilty and exonerate the innocent. But now he doesn't need the DNA? LOL.

[hexola]

52. ..it was the players loudly claiming the DNA would exonerate them

I dont remember that...

[LisaL]

70. When police applied for court order to get DNA

from 46 lacrosse players, they claimed the tests will show conclusive evidence as who the suspects are.

[knitter4democracy]

53. Depends

My SIL was drugged and raped, and she was in and out--she remembers fighting him off at one point but is fuzzy on the rest. She has the bruises and wounds to prove it, too.

Sorry, I'm still more likely to believe the victim until all the evidence is in. This bit is from the defense, which might be lying.

[okieinpain]

67. but on one of the talking head shows, I believe rita's they someone

said that they found players dna on a towel in the bathroom. and of course one of the defense lawyers said ok, they're guilty of masturbating.

[roguevalley]

10. I hope they did all kinds of blood tests to keep this straight. I knew

they would rip her to shreds.

[rd_kent]

17. Alleged victim. Remember that.

Things dont look good for ol'girl, there. More and more things keep coming up that cast doubt that a rape took place.

[rodeodance]

38. Something happened- We just do not have the full story.

[knitter4democracy]

54. I hate that.

She's a victim, not alleged victim. You don't hear that term used with other crimes--alleged murder victim, alleged theft victim, alleged victim of anything else. It's only used in rape because there are so many who really don't want it to be true.

[FiveGoodMen]

72. You would say alleged murder victim ...

...if the body had not been found and there was no proof that anyone was actually dead. You would say alleged theft victim if someone came out of nowhere and told their insurance company, "I had $50,000 in my purse this morning and someone stole it."

Alleged is the right word UNTIL we know that a crime was committed.

And nothing about using the word alleged -- maintaining innocence until guilt is proven -- will lessen the severity of the sentence if and when a guilty verdict comes down.

AND THESE DAMNED CASES SHOULD NOT BE TRIED IN THE MEDIA!

[knitter4democracy]

73. But we have a victim here.

She's not missing, and she has been checked by a medical professional who said the injuries were consistent with rape. So, she's not an alleged victim.

You are right about not trying them in the media. I will agree to that. I think it's part of why so many women, including my SIL who had a strong case against her rapist, don't press charges.

[LisaL]

78. The medical professional did not say she was raped.

The "injuries consistent with rape" term do not guarantee there was a rape.

[knitter4democracy]

95. Whatever.

I was sexually assaulted with an object that left no marks of any kind, so I tend to side with the woman on this. If she says she was raped, and there are wounds that sure look like she was raped, I'm going to lean towards thinking she was raped. Sorry, but that's my bias.

[FiveGoodMen]

85. We very well MAY have a victim here

but until a court has had a chance to weed through it all, we're only taking the word of the accuser. She may well be telling the truth -- I'm not taking sides in this.

[Umbram]

141. Maybe, but...

How do you define the word 'victim'? When exactly is it correct to call another a victim?

MSNBC used "alleged murder victim" last week: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12184129

"alleged murder victim" seems to have been used in that case because there was doubt about whether or not a crime had ACTUALLY been committed? Fair, unfair?

[rinsd]

66. Wouldn't roofies would have shown up during the rape kit testing?

[knitter4democracy]

96. They don't always.

They're not all that long-acting (it's actually a drug used in surgery for anesthesia), and they don't always think to test for it, from what I understand.

[Maddy McCall]

140. Except that, when you've been roofied, you're usually gone for days.

In and out of it for at least a couple of days.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. I'd say the Duke alumni association has hired expert help. nt.

[zann725]

133. No doubt, indeed. 'Institutions' of Duke's stature, do NOT gang rape...

even if they do, they don't. It'll be covered up...by the "proper" people. And the "house" was NOT given proper access to for two days, right? That's a lot of time to clean up, and conceal, and agree on "stories."

The woman has also left town (probably on threat)?

Aside from the fact this was a prestigious school that
"has" no such scandals...these guys were ALSO star athletes. And we only have to look at the O.J. case, or Kobe...and other "excused" athlete criminal behavior in the past) to know their value "for the team" far outweighs the value of justice, or the woman they gang raped. That IS their right, as they've been taught, to take what they want, in exchange for their athletic prowess.

Guilty, BEFORE proven...beyond a doubt.

[wakeme2008]

6. Just a drunk that said she was raped... :(

No DNA, pictures that show she was in bad shape when she got there, and a SBI report that states no signs of sexual activity.

[NVMojo]

9. No shit!!!

[radwriter0555]

28. The report at the hospital said her injuries were consistent with rape,

only lacking in DNA.

That DNA went down the toilet when the condoms.

[rodeodance]

39. yes, I read of that hospital report earlier. Some violence took place.

[wakeme2008]

42. Yes but WHEN

Picture they took when she got there show scratches and things.

[knitter4democracy]

75. Much of that heals quickly.

At least, it heals quickly enough to give them a time frame.

[LisaL]

77. Much of what heals quickly?

[knitter4democracy]

97. The vulvar area.

The vagina and the vulva have a huge blood supply and friable tissue, which means that they can heal fairly quickly. A full-on rip, like an episiotomy only naturally ripped, heals in just weeks. Do that somewhere else on the body, and it might never fully heal.

[LisaL]

100. Even if it heals in just weeks, that gives more than enough time

for any such injuries to occur somewhere else other than Lacrosse house. Apparently there is also a window of time after she left the party. It's not clear where the police officer took her and when she arrived into the hospital. It could have been hours later, which leaves another window of opportunity for any such injuries to occur, whatever those injuries were. And I would like to know what kind of injuries she actually had, rather then just "consistent with rape". What else could those injuries to be consistent with?

[knitter4democracy]

117. Good points, all.

I'm just saying that she can't take something from weeks ago and say it happened that night. There's a timeline with those injuries.

Usually there's serious tearing and bruising, inflammation and swelling. A willing woman doesn't get those injuries usually.

[LisaL]

121. If she had those, which I don't know at this point, again, no way

to say who and when inflicted it on her. While the injuries couldn't have been from a month ago, what if they were from a day before? Again, if she had those. In Mr. Kobe Bryan's case, the alleged victim also had injuries consistent with rape. And look how that case turned out-it never even got to the trial stage.
There is photographic evidence depicting her at this party, apparently. And this evidence is not really consistent with her story, as far as I can tell.
Of course I don't know what exactly her story is, but the pictures show her at the beginning with bruising on her legs.

[knitter4democracy]

134. I'm inclined to think that we don't know the whole story.

In that case, I'm less likely to automatically assume that the victim is making it all up. It takes a lot for a woman to come forward and be put on trial herself before all the truth comes out, and I don't think anyone would enter that lightly.

The fact that her job is what it is will make most of the jury automatically think she is lying about this. Look at how many here question absolutely everything from her story, call her an alleged victim, and honestly think it's all made up--and this is a liberal site with a ton of feminists.

[LisaL]

135. Apparently that group questioning her story

appears to include the other stripper-at least according to the defense.
And unlike any of us, the other stripper actually was at the scene.

[knitter4democracy]

138. There are many reasons for that.

I can think of many off the top of my head.

[wakeme2008]

41. That NOT what the SBI found

Condoms leave traces NONE found. No DNA found.

[Dr.Phool]

11. Was her name Tawana Brawley?

I'm just saying, because a guy committed suicide over her false allegations.

[Maine-ah]

45. Just playing devils advocate here

why would an innocent person commit suicide over false allegations?

[0007]

47. Where did you hear that one?

[targetpractice]

12. If she was slipped a Mickey or Rohypnol...

...it would take a while to really piece facts together...

She could be telling the truth. Or, she could be thinking she's telling the truth while incorrectly remembering things trough a haze of drugs. In that case, her brain may be associating faces and events in a distorted way.

It seems that someone mistreated her at some point that night. If she has identified the wrong perps, it may not be her fault.

Drugged rape victims with faulty memories are not uncommon.

[hexola]

14. How often do Roofies and Mickeys turn up in the wild...?

I've been around the rock and roll/college party scene a bit - I've never heard or seen any roofies, much less a mickey anywhere...?

Do people party with this stuff - or is strictly a knock-out thing...?

As far as her being slipped something...how often does this happen? I know it HAS happened - but does it happen a lot...?

[targetpractice]

16. Two points...

1) I live in NYC and know that it has happened to two people that I know... The victims were gay men, but that should make a difference?

2) I volunteered for a rape crisis hotline in a southern years ago. Knocking out, drugging, or simply pumping alcohol into a victim is common practice in "acquaintance rape" scenarios.

Does this happen a lot? Unfortunately, men rape women at parties.

What's your definition of "a lot"?

[hexola]

19. A lot - I dunno - statistically significant...

Gender seems irrelevant...

I was more interested in the Ruphenol thing - just because I've never heard of it being commonly abused as a party drug. (like Ecstacy, for example)

I have no definition of "a lot"...I guess if the truth was 1 in 10 rapes involved Rohypnol - I would be suprised...and say "Wow, thats a lot!"

[knitter4democracy]

55. It happens a lot.

My SIL was drugged and raped last summer, and in that same month, several other friends at another message board either had it done to them or had very close calls.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not true. That's availability bias.

[LisaL]

24. Why do you assume somebody gave or slipped her drugs?

[hexola]

29. "If"...conditional, hypothetical...

So many people looking for a fight on this topic...

Its not a contest, folks!

Its nice to have folks looking at it from all angles...

[LisaL]

33. If she claimed she fought these three men to the point her nails

tore off, how is that consistent with her being given a date rape drug?

[hexola]

34. ...never clear if they were her real nails, or fake...(nt)

[LisaL]

35. Fake. And no DNA on them either.

[hexola]

36. ...with regard to the drugged aspect...

Fake nails would come off a lot easier than real...so hard to get and idea of the level of force/violence...

[Maine-ah]

46. not necessarily

ever have nails put on? The glue that is used is basically super glue. I've had them before. Ripped my own nail off with the fake nail.

Unless of course she used something like Lee Press-on Nails, which those just fall off easily. But most women (that I know) have them done professionally.

[LisaL]

94. Apparently she put nail polish on her nails while she was at the

party. Pictures show her leaving red nail polish stains on the railing.
So, she could have taken old nails off and put on new ones.

[Maine-ah]

119. do you know how long it takes to do that?

w/o knowing what kind of nails, if (let's say) she had accrylics, or something similar, it take hours to get those off. You have to soak your fingers in accetone to do it, and they don't just pull off.

But, again, if they were something cheap, like Lee Press-on's then that's different, but again, these days most woment (that I know) use the proffessional accrylic tips, or full coverage nails, which don't just come off.

On edit:

red nail polish and other dark colors rub off on things if pressed hard against an object even when they're dry. You can write on paper like a crayon. Just saying..... I mean I don't know what happened, it's just these are the things that I know a little something about.

[LisaL]

122. I heard it the other way-that these nails would even fall off on

their own after a couple of weeks.

[Maine-ah]

126. depends on how well you take care of them I would guess

I have never had them fall off after a couple of weeks though, months is a possibility.

Lets say, if she washed dishes by hand, used a lot of cleaning chems, never used gloves and did this everyday.... well, then I can see them coming off. Again, it's a super glue that is used. But I also don't know what kind of nails she had on and I am just guessing, and more or less playing a devil's advocate.

If the nails are maintained properly, they won't fall off. Fills get done every couple of weeks, and wearing gloves while doing chores, applying oil to them everday ect.... They don't fall off easily.

[LisaL]

127. I don't know what kind of nails she had. But again, no DNA was

found on her nails. If she lost then in a struggle, scratching and clawing, as she apparently claims, would you not expect DNA to be found on those nails?
And where was the second stripper during this vicious attack?
There were two stripper, with the second one not being incapacitated, inebriated, etc. What was she doing at the time of an attack?

[Maine-ah]

128. oh, of course I would have expected to find some kind of dna

the whole point I was originally making was to another post about how fake nails would come off easier, by someone a few posts up.

it does seem that the majority of the evidence at hand is going against what she's been claiming.

[goclark]

148. Sounds like Lee's Nail or something

When you get nails done they don't usually fall off, the real nail starts showing at the top but they don't fall off.

A nail may crack but that is rare.

[0007]

118. I do think that's the case.

[LisaL]

125. I do not expect a DA to go out and accuse people

of a crime because something bad had happened to the victim. She may be telling the truth? She could be thinking she is telling the truth? Should that be enough to arrest or charge someone? Shouldn't they at least figure out who did this to her, if something bad had happened to her, or does it matter?
If this DA is planning to charge people based on her ID alone, don't you think her state of incapacitation matters?

[genie_weenie]

13. Yeah, what's up with this! I mean there's NO chance

at all this was a false accusation. This is all just the evil Duke alumni destroying this woman. Why have a trial for these men? Everyone knows they did it! Enemies of the people like this need to be liquidated. 10 years hard labor!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=927344&mesg_id=928461

[rd_kent]

18. Please tell me your joking!

No, really, tell me your joking!

[genie_weenie]

20. Most of the conversation was in the GD

My sarcasm button must be malfunctioning... But, reading about the fliers and the vigils and all the commentary it seems many people (mostly non-DUers) are waiting to send in the GodDamned All Powerful State to crush those whom they deem enemies, prior to any conviction or even the Grand Jury which is this monday if my sources are correct.

Of couse, the real issue is a woman was hurt and the notoriety of this case is going to hurt other women who suffer sexual assaults...

[BattyDem]

15. There should be a law against trying rape cases in the press

It hurts everyone involved. Gather the evidence, take it to trial and let a jury decide.

I don't know what happened. I don't know who's lying or who's telling the truth. All I know is that every time a high-profile rape case happens, the woman gets trashed from all sides. How can that not have an effect on future cases?

If a woman - any woman, no matter who she is or where she's from - gets raped by a man (or men) who happens to have a certain amount of notoriety, why would she report it? Every aspect of her life from the day she was born until the day she was attacked will be scrutinized by the press and she will be made out to be a whore. Why does she have to go through hell to get justice? Like I said, I don't know what the story is in this particular case, but it's not only this case. We see the same scenario happen over and over again. It's not right.

[gatlingforme]

79. I agree, but I like the first amendment too. n/t

[hexola]

21. Would the police put an unconcious person in the drunk tank?

This sounds a bit odd...

I cant imagine they would put a unconcious woman in a drunk tank, 24 hour lockup.

[LisaL]

22. I think she ended up in a hospital being examined for rape

that night. So they didn't put her in a drunk tank for 24 hours.

[hexola]

23. That was the initial call -

The cop used a code and references 24 hour holding...

I'll try to find a reference...

[LisaL]

25. I know that, but they obviously did not do it to her in the end.

[hexola]

30. Right - but if the officer was dispatched to take someone to the tank...

It gives some credence to the idea that she was still concious...

When he got there she was passed out...or something.

[LisaL]

32. If you believe the lacrosse players, she kept passing

out when she arrived to the party. She also kept falling down, according to them. They also claim there are pictures of her passed out during the party, although, obviously, those pictures have not been released. But the claim is she arrived to the party in that condition.

[rodeodance]

40. Something terrible happened to this women by looks of the medical

exam.

.
The recording is consistent with "what I have seen of the photo evidence before," attorney Kerry Sutton said. Those photos, she said, showed that she was "way beyond where you would put somebody behind the wheel of a car."

The description of the woman's medical exam _ which Nifong has said is his basis for believing a rape occurred _ does not mention her being drunk. It states only that the woman's injuries and behavior were consistent with having been raped, sexually assaulted and having suffered a traumatic experience.

[LisaL]

101. But when was she examined?

If that was hours later, I suppose she could have sobered up.

[progressivebydesign]

109. Thank you for posting that.. I'm tired of DUers working for the defense..

I had read that the Doctor did not find anything to suggest she had been drinking, but that she had survived a traumatic attack.

[femmedem]

48. Unless a doctor's report says she was drunk

this doesn't mean anything. When I called 911 and reported that my husband had passed out, the EMT's assumed he was drunk. No, I said, I think he had a seizure. By then he was conscious but really out of it. They refused to believe he wasn't drunk, no matter how many times I said he hadn't had anything to drink.

If a person seems disoriented, the first thing a police officer or anyone else is going to assume is that they're drunk or drugged, especially late at night, especially if the person is in someone else's car. It doesn't mean it's the truth.

And hiding in someone's car and refusing to get out seems like a reasonable response to being raped and beaten.

AND...why are people focusing on whether or not she was drunk anyway, except to smear the woman? Actually, if the hospital report says that there is any evidence of sex, and if she were that intoxicated, it would be rape because she wouldn't have been able to consent.

Although I myself believe she was probably raped, I'm not trying to convince the rest of you. I'm just saying we have to read the newspaper reports with the same critical eye we use when we're reading stories about the * administration.

[knitter4democracy]

56. Thank you.

That is a very good point. This is such a personal thing to so many here that we need to remember to think critically about it.

[Hekate]

114. Welcome to DU, & I hope your husband is okay now

Amazing the issues that come up with this case -- as in, "the more things change, the more they remain the same," even at a place like DU.

I'm of the opinion that a case like this needs to be tried in court, not on tv, and that every town/university/hospital/cop station needs a SART, a Sexual Assault Response Team. SARTs are trained to appropriately treat the trauma and collect the evidence, thus protecting both accused and accuser.

God only knows how this case will turn out, but the fact that the university's president so quickly disbanded the team and fired the coach tells me that there was already a history with this group.

Hekate

[MelliMel]

57. So what?? That is no excuse for rape!

What century am I living in that anyone would think that rape is ok because the victim is passed out?

[brentspeak]

59. You're making the assumption

that she WAS actually raped in the first place.

[MelliMel]

61. True.

Sorry, I tend to believe rape victims right off as so many are accused of falsely reporting.

I should have said that if she was raped, her state of being passed out does not make it ok.

[Baconfoot]

62. Yup. It's no more rape-ish to rape a drugged rather than a drunk woman

And this is good news because, I mean, who wants to go through the hassle of ordering bloodwork before deciding whether to have sex with the chick passed out at the party.
No sex with any passed out chicks at parties is a good rule of thumb.

[LisaL]

68. She said she fought her three attackers. How do you think she

managed that if she was passed out?

[DubyaSux]

60. Just out of curiousity...

....does anyone know of a case where a drunk prostitute stripper was raped without the perpetrators leaving behind any evidence, yet the prosecutor got a conviction?

Now, don't get me wrong. Nobody deserves to get raped. Just because she's a drunk prostitute stripper does not give anybody license to sexually assulat her. All rapes should be prosecuted - period.

But domestic violence and sexual assault charges are the most common cases where people are falsely accused. So far, the credibility of the alleged victim is in serious doubt. And although serial rapists are excellent at covering their tracks, it is implausible to think that a violent gang-rape would not leave behind any trace. It seems racist to me to assume the guys are innocent because they are rich white kids and she's a poor black. We wouldn't accept this logic if it were the other way around.

The prosecutor should have shut up and gathered evidence instead of attempting to try this in the court of public opinion. So far, he's offered up nothing in that same court to substantiate his claims.

[knitter4democracy]

69. This is from the defense, not the DA.

The defense is trying to taint the jury pool--standard tactic to blame the victim and make everyone question her.

Another DUer who works in sexual assault said that false reports of rape only occur in 2% of cases. The victim is automatically questioned, though, much more frequently than that. Also, consider the fact that most rapes go unreported--the women already blame themselves enough and know they don't want to go on trial themselves just to hear that they wanted it, that it was consentual, or that they're skanks and sluts just asking for it.

[LisaL]

71. And you must have not seen the DA claiming he is confident

the rape occurred? This guy gave a whole bunch of interviews. If he shut up (somewhat) recently, maybe it's because the evidence isn't the "best" as he himself put it in one interview.

[knitter4democracy]

74. I hadn't seen that, no.

I don't watch cable news, so I hadn't seen the DA boasting about the case. Still, this DNA evidence is coming from the defense, and they're just as biased as the prosecution.

[LisaL]

76. DNA evidence is coming from the report that was released by

the defense. Prosecution has this report too. You don't seriously think there is a DNA match but the defense is just lying there there is not?

[knitter4democracy]

98. I'm not sure.

I'm also wondering if the DA was sat on and told to stop using the media to bias the jury pool but the defense is doing everything it can to sway people ahead of time.

[DubyaSux]

81. The 2% figure is bogus...

....and the 85% figure used on the other side of the argument is just as bogus. 41% is a commonly accepted number according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Overreporting_and_false_reporting

Clearly, there is reason to doubt claims of rape without any evidence or credibility issues. It's almost as likely a woman is telling the truth as she is lying. It's simple math.

And I'm not saying she wasn't raped. But the odds seem to be very slim while the lacrosse team's coach has resigned and their season cancelled because of this.

[Lars39]

83. Sorry, not going to accept a wikipedia article for stats.

[oblivious]

82. Are you quite sure she was a prostitute? The article doesn't say that.

It says she was a stripper and college student.

[seriousstan]

87. She was working for an escort service from what I heard.

[femmedem]

89. Most likely, what you heard about was the agency

that hired her to dance at a party.

[gatlingforme]

84. whoever said she was a prostitute? Your argument is very biased

"a drunk, prostitute, stripper" hmmm,
who knows what she did, I also heard she had kids and went to school, I do not see that in your reasoning..., does anyone know of a case where a female student with kids was raped without the perps...etc...
after I read your first sentence, I tuned out due to the complete bias.

[femmedem]

88. Maybe you're conflating prostitution and stripping?

Look, I was an exotic dancer for fourteen years, in everything from upscale gentlemen's clubs to casual little dives. I worked with hundreds, maybe thousands of dancers, and I know of less than half a dozen who turned tricks on the side.

I did know lots and lots of wonderful single mothers and students who wanted to make a week's income in a night or two so they could meet their other obligations. When I heard that the woman in question is a twenty seven year old mother and student, I remembered a lot of old friends.

And I don't think it's the prosecutor who's got this all over the news. I think the defense has been making the most statements. And it's really the media's decision to plaster this everywhere. Strippers? Athletes? Rape? Race? They know what sells.

[LisaL]

90. This woman did one on one parties three times a week.

What goes on during those parties? I am just asking...
Is it just dancing?
One on one?

[femmedem]

91. No, that wouldn't be dancing.

There's no such thing as a one on one party. Where did you hear this?

[LisaL]

92. So, what goes on? What kind of dancing goes on during "one on one"

parties? A horisontal mambo?
"The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.

"It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule."
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/v-print/story/421799.html

[femmedem]

93. My computer wouldn't open the link,

but I don't have any experience with escort services, nor do I know anyone who did. So I can't really talk about that with any authority.

[seriousstan]

130. Escort services are only thinly veiled prostitute services.

A 1 on 1 is nothing more than a euphemism for sex.

[LisaL]

131. That would be my guess too.

Obviously she hasn't been referred to as a prostitute (in the press), though.

[louis-t]

63. Many years ago, I had a roommate who would get drunk,

occasionally set the apartment on fire, fall off the back of a truck and then claim he must have been in a fight. Not saying she wasn't raped, just that some people don't do well with booze.

[Chomp]

64. Sub Judice anyone?

What he hell happened to Sub Judice in the American justice system?

To a European, this public bunfighting is absolutely shocking when the issue is so serious.

[goodhue]

80. So what?!

The fact that the victim was drunk does not lessen the alleged crime.

[seriousstan]

86. It does, however, bring into question her ability to remember facts.

[Hekate]

115. Regardless, evidence ought to've been collected from her body immediately

by a Sexual Assault Response Team (SART).

What if she had actually been dead, God forbid? Presumably any coroner and detective team worth their salt would have managed to find an abundance of clues giving mute but eloquent testimony.

When someone has been assaulted, I do not accept the excuse that their (possible) mental or physical impairment lets their assailant off the hook.

Hekate

[LisaL]

124. They collected DNA evidence. And DNA evidence showed no

match. Granted, prosecution did additional DNA tests in a private lab, and hasn't released the results, but still- no DNA match to anyone of the 46 tested so far. So, what would you do in such a case? Just arrest anyone because someone has to pay for an alleged assault?

[ContraBass Black]

102. If she was unconscious and the incident occurred, it's rape.

Straight up and down.

[LisaL]

103. Oh jesus christ. What she alleges is that three men drugged her

into the bathroom, held her down, and forcefully raped her, vaginally, anally, and orally. Not that she was out of it and somebody took advantage.
WTF does it have to do with "if she was unconscious, that was rape"?
The woman says she was viciously attacked and had to fight for her life. How does that translate into "if she was unconscious, that was rape"?

[ContraBass Black]

104. There's no translation.

If someone violated her while she was unconscious, that was rape.

If something else happened or didn't happen, that's a separate issue.

[LisaL]

105. And if aliens abducted her, that would be an alien abduction?

WTF is your point? The allegations are not that someone violated her while she was unconscious. She is alleging forcible rape. So, again, what does "if someone violated her while she was unconscious" has to do with this particular case?

[ContraBass Black]

106. Yes, that would be an alien abduction.

If it didn't happen, it has nothing to do with this case.

If it did happen, it was rape, it was forced, and it's the point of this case.

If something else happened, then that is the point of this case.

[LisaL]

107. The rape that was done to her when she was unconscious

is not what she alleges had happened. So, why should it even enter into discussion? Frankly, this whole case looks like a house of cards-one puff, and it's all going to tumble down.

[progressivebydesign]

108. Amazing how fast people on DU turn on her because of DEFENSE stories..

The cop said.. 'she seems passed out drunk or something', the DOCTOR that examined her said that her condition was consistent with a traumatic event and injury, and she did NOT appear drunk at all. Pardon my crassness, but if you were gangbanged in a bathroom and attacked for nearly an hour, you think YOU'D be perky? Or would you be passed out?

I love how eagerly people here are eating up the defense attempts to taint the trial.. releasing all this shit to change public opinion.

Until I hear the prosecutors have dropped the charges, then I'm not going to cry "tawana bradley' or whatever nonsense is being written here. If the prosecutors find too many problems with the story and evidence, then I'll concede. Until then.. for god's sake, show some compassion to the woman. I do recall people on DU recently saying that their attacker wore a condom to keep from providing DNA during a rape.. it happens.

[Fun Doom Mentalist]

110. I am surprised-so many D.U.threads where posters believe Corporate Media

and the propaganda/spin game.

I had always thought that liberal/progressives were different than the RWers--
I am not seeing very much difference.

I'm looking for free thinkers and I'm finding sheeple.

This is not an insult it's just an observation.

[yellowcanine]

111. You know what, no one here knows what happened. It is not useful to

start calling people sheeple about believing what is put out by the MSM. You got your version of events from the MSM as well. Why don't we allow law enforcement and the courts to do their jobs before we assume we know the truth based on news reports and internet gossip that may or may not fit into our own stereotypes and biases? And it is not "just an observation", it is an insult to name-call. People who happen to disagree with you about this one event are not "sheeple", they are thinking people who happen to disagree with you about this one event.

[Fun Doom Mentalist]

113. sheeple are "people" who can be herded like "sheep"

no offense intended-
at all-
Your response is amazing- like "team" player defending your team mates.
that's honorable--

But understand, the idea of sheeple is not a name calling but is a descriptive word conjoining sheep and people--it's the best way to describe my direct observation-

To understand my point just look around-

And also you can look at that latest Iran thread--my God!
I see posts where people are nearly ready to sign up to invade Iran!
(not literally--they're just enthusiastic about the idea of it)
People everywhere, even here at D.U.(I concluded reading some of the posts), seem ready to accept the corporate media's sublte suggestions on how they should feel about certain issues.

It's pretty amazing-

I prefer it when people challenge the media's spin--especially after the Iraq WMD bullshit and tens of thousands dead.

[robcon]

116. I find it funny

Fun Doom Mentalist wrote"the idea of sheeple is not a name calling "

Then my calling your post moronic is also not name calling.... "it's the best way to describe my direct observation"

[Fun Doom Mentalist]

137. LOL!

WOW!
EyeTalix !!
I AM impressed!


I'm looking for free thinkers and I'm finding sheeple



!!! LOL!!!
:rofl: as if I called you a name!!

your team spirit is very noble though!!!

[yellowcanine]

112. Actually I am not sure we KNOW what either the examining doctor

said OR what the cop said. If that is what they said they both are violating their professional codes of conduct. Doctors are not supposed to release information to the public about patients and cops are not supposed to release information about what happened at the scene of a potential crime.

[LisaL]

120. Yes, we do know what at least the cop said

because the 911 tape has been released. I am sure releasing the 911 tape is legal, at least it's done all the time. Other than that, the cop did not give any interviews, if that is what you are implying.
But he said on tape to 911 that the woman was "passed out drunk".

[Kingshakabobo]

129. The 911 tape was released via FOI request by the media. n/t

[LisaL]

132. Well, obviously.

Media will find all the stuff it can find legally. And sometimes not so legally. But the 911 call was released legally.

[LisaL]

123. How could she be attacked for nearly an hour?

She arrived to the house around 12:00-the photos show her at this time.
She was gone by 12:41. And what do you think the second stripper was doing while her co-worker was being assaulted for "nearly an hour"?
Just chilling out? I mean, there is another witness in addition to the Lacrosse players, which is the second stripper. What does prosecution think the second stripper was doing while her co-worker was viciously gang raped?

[bedpanartist]

139. if these guys are innocent

as it appears they are, there's a WHOLE LOTTA' FOLKS who owe these boys an apology.

[robcon]

142. I disagree. No apology needed.

The 46 lacrosse players were suspects who apparently couldn't be narrowed down to fewer suspects without the DNA test.

The DNA test is in. Perhaps none of them were involved. The DA/police were doing their job.

No apology necessary.

[LisaL]

144. I bet you would be singing a different tune if you were the accused.

[bedpanartist]

145. yup, their season was cancelled, and they must travel incognito

due to the media hordes flocking to the latest scandal du jour.

[LisaL]

146. Add to that, there are photos taken during the party.

Depicting various scenes that include both women.
And DA does not want to see them
WTF?
"Defense attorneys said they offered to show the pictures to District Attorney Mike Nifong, but he declined to see them.

"As I understand the exchange, as it was reported to me, the DA is not interested in a discussion about our evidence," said defense attorney Bob Ekstrand."
http://www.wral.com/news/8751211/detail.html

[robcon]

147. You mean I would say the DA shouldn't investigate?

That doesn't make sense. Of course, if i had something to hide I'd try to stifle the investigation. But in any case I have no right to restrict the DA's investigation.

[superconnected]

149. I don't trust any of the news coming out at this point.

I fully expected them to defame her as much as possible, truthfully or not.

A prostitute, can be raped. A drunk person can be raped. A drugged person can be raped.

I'm not going to let the attacker off because of the condition of the person they attacted.

Who knows what happened here - wether they attacked her or not. None of this is exonerating. It's only defamation. Bet the defamation gets a whole lot uglier. Probably until people don't care if she was attacked or not. Probably till they feel she "deserved it" wether it happened or not. Sick. But I can see where it's going.