US marines offer Babylon apology

[DoYouEverWonder]

14 April 2006

<snip>

Col Coleman told the BBC that if the Iraqis wanted an apology for the destruction caused by his men he was willing to give one.

The 2,000 troops who were deployed there did immense damage as they set up camp amidst the ruins of old temples.

A helicopter pad was constructed at the site. The vibration from landings led the roof of one building to collapse.

The soldiers also filled their sandbags with archaeological artefacts, just because they were lying around and easy to pick up.

The head of the Iraqi State Board for Heritage and Antiquities, Donny George, is angry and says the mess will take decades to sort out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4908940.stm


The disrespect the US has for Iraq's past and culture is beyond disgusting.

[rodeodance]

1. recall when Rummy made that crack about how the media was showing

the same clip over and over -about how museums were being raided, etc.?
This gen. does not seem too happy about the 'apology"

[saigon68]

20. Do not disrespect the troops

I was warned about this. They were only filling sandbags with Relics from a Museum.

Jeeze

[darkmaestro019]

2. APOLOGY???

This, unless I'm wrong (I don't think I am) is the remnant of the culture that gave us the Eneuma Elish, the oldest known novel. This is the OLDEST civilization we'd be inclined to call a civilization at all, the first place we found writing, an organized mythos, laws.....

Remember being made to do little projects on the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon were in the general vicinity of modern-day Iraq.

That's not just IRAQI past and culture. That's HUMANKIND's past and culture.

An apology? That plus EVERY PENNY EACH OF YOU WOULD EVER MAKE IN YOUR LIVES might, maybe, start to repair that ONE collapsed building. Except not. This is irreplacable stuff. Unimaginable value to all the human race, a little like childhood memorabilia on an Earth-scale.

Disrespect, disdain, look, let's LOOT.......:puke:

I don't even have words for how angry this makes me, because there are no words to describe the value of what has been destroyed.

[Kutjara]

4. It's certainly an outrage, but...

...I seem to recall an article from about 10 years ago saying that Sadaam thought the original ruins looked unimpressive, so he ordered them largely demolished and rebuilt. The result was a sort of EPCOT Babylon. In most cases, only the floorplan and first few courses of brick were original. So the damage done to the buildings may not be actually all that important.

Filling sandbags with artefacts, however, is potentially far worse. Depending on whether or not the artifacts were in their original locations before the soldiers started bagging them, it may be a very bad thing or, again, not that big a deal. Much of the value of artefacts is their location in the site. In particular, their depth gives important clues to age and therefore tells archeologists much about the way people lived at different times. If the artefacts were dug up by soldiers, then that information has been lost. If, however, they were lying around on the ground as a result of Sadaam's earlier depredations, the damage was already done, and the US troops probably did little additional damage.

edit for typos

[darkmaestro019]

16. I see your point, but somehow

the idea of me breaking some of my own family heirlooms is a lot less offensive than the idea of a burglar doing so, if you can grok it.

I hadn't even THOUGHT about the location being ruined--everything pretty much dated by everything else it's around...ye gods....

And even if they were lying in a trash heap, it's insult on top of injury for us to invade and then treat this stuff like it's tourist junk, souvenirs...

edit: redundancy

[Bridget Burke]

28. Where did you read that article?

Can you verify the information?

[0007]

8. I can't believe this!!

Col Coleman argues that whatever his troops did, the alternative would have been far worse.

If they hadn't moved in, Babylon would have been left at the mercy of looters, he says.

[darkmaestro019]

17. I guess he means, yanno, OTHER looters. eom

[saigon68]

44. Well at least the Halliburton Profits are safe

And War Criminal Cheney made 9 Million $$$$ last year

[jwirr]

21. Absolutely. What has been lost in this place and that museum

have been part of a good education for every child in our country but they could care less. Apology - there is none that fit.

[WinkyDink]

49. I totally agree. I'm sick beyond words at our wanton destruction.

But perhaps this destruction was ALSO part of the plan: Both to ERASE history and to LOOT, both of which seem to be Bushco's motives in everything they do.

[bleedingheart]

3. Americans have been raised with no respect for education or culture

so what do people expect?

The American Dream is all about getting rich quick and buying all the toys and amenities you want....

Look at our culture...we worship sports figures whose only talents are their atheletic prowess and we build them huge stadiums to play in and we are accepting of them making millions upon millions of dollars.

Meanwhile the same citizens will balk at a pay raise and healthcare for teachers....and it is somehow suprising that our soldiers would desecrate a historic site?

[xchrom]

5. lol -- too little too late.

unbelievable that this guy can be so blase -- ''sure, i'll apologise.'' -- blech.

[MaineDem]

6. I'm embarrassed at what our government has done

There are no words to describe how horrendous this is.

Edited for spelling.

[bigscott]

7. take a visit to the Pergamon Museum

in Berlin - has (or had?) on display some of the most awesome artifacts and displays from the Middle East - many were from the Iraq area (Persia). I have been to my share of museums and I trace my ancestry (father's side) to Persia, so I thought I knew what to expect - but the sheer beauty of what these people did thousands of years ago still moved me to tears.

[pinniped]

9. Here's a wall relief I saw at a museum recently:

[Divernan]

10. OMG-that man has wings! Heathen! Blasphemy ! ! (sarcasm)

See those artifacts weren't Christian artifacts, so they should be destroyed. They were planted by Satan to confuse all us godfearin' born-again-waitin'-for-the-rapture-Xtians!

Seriously, it is a tragedy that the U.S. foreign policy/war machine has no respect for history or culture. Between the lack of education in world history/culture, foreign languages, & geography; the lack of international news coverage in our print/broadcast media; and that so few Americans ever travel and experience the fascinating and intriguing differences between & among foreign lands and small town, USA; no wonder it is so easy for this administration to foster racism, hatred & contempt of all "foreign" places and people. The old post World War I song lyrics asked, "How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they seen Paree (Paris)?" It's easy to keep the poorly educated masses of Americans glued to their "reality" TV shows, and spending their vacations in casinos and Disneyland, leading their little lives of limited consumerism, and being easily manipulated by the GOP puppetmasters like Rove.

[Eurobabe]

13. This is a common theme of war, cultural annihilation

we studied it in our Preservation Theory course. The enemy messes with the psyche of the occupied by removing landmarks and historic sites.

It's an awful thing.

[Briar]

27. Bingo!

That's exactly what was behind this, and many other acts of cultural assassination. Added to that must be a deep sense of satisfaction at "paying back" those held responsible for threats to the US. Revenge is an ugly motive, but an omnipresent one.

[leftchick]

31. exactly!

We knew this way back when they let the museum be looted. They are no better than the Taliban.

[jwirr]

23. Many of the artifacts in this area have been the basis for

supporting the correctness of the Old Testament. However, you are correct. rw idiots have no idea about the argument for historical correctness of the Old Testament. So it is destroy the heathens!

[darkmaestro019]

19. This culture-thread--Assyro/ Babylonian/ Sumerian...

seems to have pretty much DIRECTLY led to the Greek civilization that we esteem so highly. Very obvious in the stylized beard bas-relief sort of style....

(head plus desktop) :cry:

Marduk? (smile) I do try, but all of the guys look like Marduk to me....it's semi-easier if you can see the little snake-dude whose name starts with a Z (maybe) that I can't even attempt to spell, but usually he and Marduk seemed to hang out together. : )

I'm getting better at picking out which Egyptian deity is which even in various forms but there seems to be so few examples of this oldest of all culture-threads (EVEN LESS NOW....argh)

You get the Ishtar Gate and a few other things on most pages. The extent of my education in this in actual school included a teacher who told us the Sumerians believed in no kind of afterlife. I argued myself blue and she kept pointing to her, syllabus, whatever it is. I brought a STACK of books with the Gilgamesh epic on top and she wouldn't even look at them.

EDIT: By "few examples" I mean in my websearching for images I've found the same few over and over again

[leftchick]

11. I have no doubt this was intentional

tell me how the US is different than the Taliban?





US marines walk through the remake of the palace of King Nebuchadnezzar in the ancient town of Babylon in this April 20, 2003 file photo. Babylon - home to one of the 7 wonders of the world -- will remain closed until experts determine how much damage foreign forces had done to the site, Iraq's culture minister said on Monday. REUTERS/Jerry Lampen

[gratuitous]

12. This is what happens . . .

When you send in the military to solve a problem, this is what happens. Every time. All through history. Without exception. And even though we see it happen every time: the spoliation of the country, rape of women, inhumane treatment of the "enemy," the death and dismemberment of the troops, the complete fucking up of another generation that will cost us for decades to come, it never gets talked about before the troops land and the bombs start falling.

[TheBaldyMan]

14. with respect, this was discussed at length before the war started,

Not only in the DU fora but widely elsewhere, we were dismissed as overly pessimistic with no understanding of Iraqi culture and military matters.

Now I know how Cassandra must have felt when her warnings fell on deaf ears.

[gratuitous]

18. Yeah, you're right

But where it was discussed was not where it needed to be discussed, and certainly never got a full airing in the major media outlets. Even now, when every last one of these "overly pessimistic" predictions is coming true, the only voices allowed on air to criticize this enormous fuck-up have to have been in favor of the invasion before it was launched.

But Cassandra is a good allusion for this phenomenon.

[TheBaldyMan]

29. It was discussed in the Pentagon, the dissenting voices were

given a 'sideways promotion' and replaced by yes-men. This has quite a lot to do with recent statements by retired general officers. The brass is not pleased with the treatment they have received by the PNAC cabal. If it were me I'd be furious and a lot less restrained than them.

Again over Iran the military advice is realistic and measured based on long experience. It is unanimously against any widening of conflict.

The days of a Bush approval being 90% are long gone and are never coming back. He is a lame duck President with dwindling political support. Even Rep. candidiates don't want his endorsement because it is far likelier to harm their prospects than help them.

Thankfully the circumstances are very different to '03.

[saigon68]

22. You are correct as the Generals Have multiple oragasms

At the thought of


"BOMBING THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGE"

[thecrow]

15. The head of the Iraqi State Board for Heritage and Antiquities

is named Donny George?
One would have expected a Muhammed, or Jamal, or something,
but not Donny George!

[mopinko]

24. i have met donny george

i believe he got the job by way of the oriental institute of the university of chicago. i know a guy from there. he has been back there, and is in contact with archaeologists from all over the middle east. he says that beyond the destruction caused by actions like that in babylon, (which went on all over, not just there) lawlessness has resulted in just about every artifact in the whole middle east growing legs and walking. not just "their" history, but the history of all of mankind. cretins.

[jwirr]

25. I wonder if some of it "walked" into the hands of collectors?

[mopinko]

26. oh, yeah

lots and lots. some artists in chicago organized an auction right after the sacking of the baghdad museum. we helped the oriental institute to set up a web page of all the known holdings. they scanned pictures that they had, and put them up. can't get that page up, here is the main site- http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/default.html
they hoped to keep at least the stuff from the museum off the market. but other stuff? fuggetaboutit, it's gone.

[pinniped]

43. Thanks for the informative link.

Those looting bastards stripped the Bull Lyre!

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/IRAQ/iraq.html

[Thor_MN]

46. I wonder if Cheney's bunker will get searched if/when he is indicted...

nt

[mopinko]

47. oooooh would that be sweet.

stack that up against mythical keyboard w's.
i think they should search haliburtons offices, right now.

[Rose Siding]

30. “if it makes him feel good, we can certainly give him one.”

And they say we aren't gracious guests :eyes:

snip>
Col. John Coleman, former chief of staff for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq, told the BBC that if the head of the Iraqi antiquities board wanted an apology, and “if it makes him feel good, we can certainly give him one.”

[saigon68]

32. That Colonel is an ASSWIPE

[Robbien]

33. U.S. commander says he's willing to apologize for damage to ancient Babylo

LONDON – A senior U.S. military officer has said he is willing to apologize for damage his troops caused to one of Iraq's most famous ancient sites.

The British Broadcasting Corp. reported Friday that after the 2003 invasion of Iraq, U.S. Marines had built a helicopter pad on the ruins of Babylon and filled their sandbags with archaeological fragments from the ancient city. It said vibrations from U.S. helicopters caused the roof of one building to collapse.

Col. John Coleman, former chief of staff for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq, told the BBC that if the head of the Iraqi antiquities board wanted an apology, and “if it makes him feel good, we can certainly give him one.”

He also added: “If it wasn't for our presence, what would the state of those archaeological ruins be?”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20060414-0841-britain-iraq-babylon.html

Where would it be? Well is sure as heck wouldn't be under a ton of concrete and vibrated into little bits and pieces.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

34. It wouldn't make him "feel good" you POS

because obviously there would be no real feeling behind it. :mad:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

35. Nor would it have two 3x2x4 meter trenches dug

through it with backhoes... which we did over the objections of that same official.

[Robbien]

37. Yep and the Seven Wonders of the World Hanging Gardens

would still be a wonder of beauty instead of being a wonder of destruction.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

41. well, to be fair, it was at best, an archelogical site

it has not been beautiful for 1500 years or so

[enlightenment]

36. Sometimes I really question my commitment to

nonviolence.

[mitchtv]

38. Not an F-king clue. This guy

is an excellent candidate for the Hague.

[stellanoir]

39. Oh yeah, We're slightly sorry that we

decimated the cradle of civilization. 'Scuse us tah."

Right

[dweller]

40. well in that case, i guess it's alright...

someone has finally apologized for this grand scale fu*k up.


i sure feel better now.

:sarcasm:

let chaos reign...
dp

[anitar1]

42. That makes me feel sooooo good. Gosh, all is ok now.

Freakin uneducated barbarians.Same goes for the treasures that were allowed to be stolen in Baghdad.

[Coventina]

48. What a self-important asshole.

:puke:

Guess what you moran?!

You didn't do anybody any good. Not us, not the Iraqis, not the memory of our ancestors.

Oh wait....maybe you did good for a bunch of murdering thugs in the White House and Halliburton.

I hope that makes you feel good you worthless piece of crap.

[BreweryYardRat]

45. I'm a history major.

I know how important this loss is to our knowledge base. While the good Colonel Coleman's ancestors were squatting in poorly thatched huts somewhere in England, those temples were being built. People were digging canals to make sure they could raise a good crop. Scribes were writing the earliest languages. Sculptors were carving out those looted artifacts-artifacts that could give us more insult into ancient Middle Eastern culture.

What were Col. Coleman's ancestors doing in that time period? I'll tell you.

Fucking sheep.

Bloody damn asshat. "Oh, we've fucked up your temples and stolen your artifacts? I'll just make you an apology, and that'll make things right again."