CNN: Two sealed indictments are handed up in the Duke University lacrosse

[sabra]

http://www.cnn.com/

Two sealed indictments are handed up in the Duke University lacrosse rape investigation, a source tells CNN.

[liberalnurse]

1. Some suspect it is political posturing

by the DA and such.....I do not know the political environment there. Anyone wanting to share who's-who in this saga? repug or Dem?????

[FredScuttle]

5. I'm not local

but according to his web page, he's running in the May 2 Democratic primary, so my guess is he's a Dem.

http://mikenifongda.com/

[nashville_brook]

16. here's something on the DA race

Lacrosse rape case at center of DA race

DURHAM -- This year's race for Durham district attorney was shaping up as a memorable one long before allegations surfaced that three Duke lacrosse players raped and beat an exotic dancer at a party.

Freda Black, a former assistant DA who gained national attention three years ago for helping convict novelist Michael Peterson for murdering his wife, decided to run against longtime colleague Mike Nifong.

Nifong became DA via a gubernatorial appointment in April 2005, when former DA Jim Hardin Jr. became a judge. The day Nifong took over, Black resigned, saying he asked her to leave.

Along with lawyer Keith Bishop, Black and Nifong are on the May 2 ballot. Though the election is a Democratic primary, it will determine Durham's chief prosecutor for the next four years. No Republican is on the November ballot.

[liberalnurse]

35. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm holding onto rendering judgement at this time........I would like to say that it would be shameful if the indictments were motivated by a Primary.

[nashville_brook]

more shameful still if they were motivated by a gang rape

[endarkenment]

2. Gee I guess that the 'drunken whore was asking for it'

campaign was unsuccessful. Oh well, the Duke Alumni Association has lots of money, they will press on to get this swept away.

[Rich Hunt]

4. I thought the DNA tests came back negative

So what does Duke have to do with it?

Could have easily been identity thieves - they are rampant on college campuses.

I don't see a reason to hate alumni from prestigious schools.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

19. crazy, ain't it!

:wtf:

[brokensymmetry]

20. Well said.

I always look forward to your posts.

[Rich Hunt]

109. me too

oops. post deleted.

[northzax]

28. any idea why these would be sealed?

is that common in rape cases? or are they sealed to prevent additional evidence from coming to light until others are indicted?

don't indictments have to be published before someone can be arrested and formally charged?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

33. North Carolina law

I don't know.

They might not be rape indictments.

Think about it.

I'm not versed or licensed in NC, so I don't know how it works.

[northzax]

57. can you arrest someone with a sealed indictment?

don't you have to share an indictment with someone when you arrest them?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

60. Oh, yeah,

when you get them to come in - to turn themselves in - you've already got the indictment unsealed and the defense attorney's been apprised of the situation.

Otherwise, how would you know who to charge?

:)

[northzax]

70. well, just showing my ignorance, I suppose

but if it's sealed, that means only the grand jury knows what's in it? not the DA, or the cops?

I'm not a lawyer, but I watch a lot of judge judy!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. Judge Judy?

That's going to cause you to go blind. She can do that.

The indictments are unsealed by a judge, and then everything goes into motion.

[northzax]

85. I have a braille keyboard, just in case.

would the target of the idictment be notified at the same time as everyone else, in general? I know you don't know NoCar law, specifically, but these things must be fairly common across different states, right?

thanks-

[OldLeftieLawyer]

87. Make sure to keep

the palms of your hands shaved, as well.

The courtesy is usually to inform the indictee's lawyer - who usually knows it's coming - and then the lawyer informs his client, they set up a time for the client to turn himself in, and, well, Judge Judy knows the rest.

:toast:

[northzax]

91. shaved? You, sir (or Madam) have now crossed the line

I shall see you in front of Her Honor, when I shall get roundly yelled at.

thanks for the info, nice to have a little real information from time to time in the mass of chaos.

[BrownOak]

103. DA Wants a Perp Walk

The sealed indictment means the suspects won't know who is in there and can't turn themselves in voluntarily. The perp walk makes for better TV.

[LisaL]

165. I think this DA is a moron.

My opinion, of course.

[goclark]

84. That's rich! LOL

[ms liberty]

80. Thank you OLL...

this has been an interesting exercise in the hysteria of hype and the media. What hasn't been quite as pleasant is the reaction of some DU'er's. Before any real facts were known, some had made up their minds. Some of the posts I've seen have been positively rabid, right down to the frothing at the mouth. As I posted in a different thread, some here see this as "you're either with us or you're with the rapists."

I've tried to be careful not to make judgements on the veracity of the alleged victim's claims, or the possible guilt or innocence of the accused. However, from the beginning, I knew there were some things being reported on that were inaccurate. I know this simply because I know the area; I know the house in question, my MIL grew up in a house very, very close to it. The 911 call from the young woman claiming that someone had yelled racial slurs at her stuck out to my husband and me; first she said they were walking by, then she said they were driving by; she also said that someone standing against the Duke wall yelled racial slurs. Well, the Duke wall is ACROSS THE STREET from the house in question; it is not a quiet side street, it is a busy through street. And the Duke wall encloses a parked area that has a jogging/walking track that runs alongside just inside the wall; there's also a sidewalk on the street side of the wall if I remember correctly. But in the news, that was never made clear, it was just connected to the case as if the Duke wall was right next to the house.

Dan Abrams has an interview with the other dancer at the party on his show today - she has admitted it was her who made the call; she is saying she didn't identify herself because her friends and family don't know she dances on the side. She said they were LEAVING when she made that call.

I have said before, and I'll say again: if the woman was raped, I want whoever did it to be tried, convicted, and jailed. But if she is not telling the truth, I hope the woman gets the help she needs to straighten her life out. Those lacrosse guys might be arrogant pricks, I don't know. But the bottom line is this: WE DON'T JAIL PEOPLE FOR BEING ARROGANT PRICKS.

And Duke should not be getting trashed simply because of something that may or may not have happened off campus, at a private party not sanctioned by the school or held during school hours. And not all Duke students are people who would have condoned or participated in this kind of behavior. For instance, I could not imagine anyone from the basketball team involved in something like this, not Coach K's kids.

[goclark]

88. I thought the party was at a frat house - wrong?

It was at a private home?

[ms liberty]

173. No, it used to be a private home...

after the "little old lady" (my husband's characterization, not mine! from his childhood) died, her son sold the house. My husband and I got married in 95, it's been a rental house at least since then, I'm sure, and probably before that.

[LostinVA]

214. Duke University owns the home and rents it to students

Per WRAL.

[northzax]

89. nah, coach K's kids

would never have been accused of this, St. K would have quashed it with a glance...:)

And the University has handled it quite well, I think, they really can't do anything until the criminal investigation is completed, without possible tampering with the investigation.

[ms liberty]

178. I have great admiration of Coach K...

he's an honorable man. Principled, honest, caring, and thoughtful. Does an immense amount of work in the community with kids, and for the Duke Hospital, also.

I think the university was kind of blindsided when it first became a media circus, but they seem to be handling everything as well as can be expected now.

[Beaverhausen]

90. Do you have a link to info on that 9/11 call?

I didn't hear the story the way your post tells it.

[BrownOak]

96. Here you go

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8756511/detail.html

[Beaverhausen]

104. That article doesn't match what that post said

And this was the other dancer, not the one who said she was raped.

edit- I didn't notice that the post I was questioning and the person who posted a link about the other dancer weren't the same people.

[BrownOak]

129. I must be confused, but that's not a rare thing

Here's what the first post said:

Dan Abrams has an interview with the other dancer at the party on his show today - she has admitted it was her who made the call; she is saying she didn't identify herself because her friends and family don't know she dances on the side. She said they were LEAVING when she made that call.

I thought that's what you were asking about. However, if you were asking about this part:


911 call from the young woman claiming that someone had yelled racial slurs at her stuck out to my husband and me; first she said they were walking by, then she said they were driving by; she also said that someone standing against the Duke wall yelled racial slurs.

If that's the case you can get it here:

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/423471.html

[Beaverhausen]

131. well, none of us have all the details

but what I first heard reported out here in California was that the dancers entered the party expecting 4-5 men and were greeted by about 30 guys who proceeded to call them racist and sexist names and basically taunt them until they left. The fact that the first 9/11 call wasn't clear as to where the boys were when they were taunting the women wasn't really part of what was reported in the general media. I don't think the fact that they were dancers who were hired by the boys was "hidden" for very long.

Also, the article quoted seems to negate the defense's claim that the alleged victim showed up at the party already intoxicated.

Again, none of us knows enough of the details to make a decision either way.

[BrownOak]

171. Maybe this will help

The dancers weren't describing what they went through in the 911 call, but rather were making a false report, presumably to get the players in trouble because of their racial slurs directed at the dancers. So the taunting from that 911 call never actually took place but other taunting did. Don't look for the 911 call to make sense in any other context.

[LisaL]

176. So, basically, the woman was lying on 911 call-making a

false report?
But hey, women do not lie.

[ms liberty]

192. I believe you've misunderstood what I meant...

I wasn't speaking to any aspect of the story told by the dancers regarding their gig at the party. I was speaking to the misrepresentation by the media of that first 911 call, and the contradictions in that call, both as an example of what I termed hysteria and hype. At the beginning of the media frenzy, this first 911 call was included by the media as being something which indicated the truth of the young woman's claim, an "independent" verification, if you will, that the guys were "trouble." (My characterization) However, this 911 call was from an "unidentified young woman" at that time; my husband's and my suspicion was raised about this call because of the inaccuracies in the description used by the young woman in that call to describe what she was doing when the racial slurs happened, i.e. first they were walking, then driving; and the unquestioning acceptance by the media as part of the story. The media presented it as no inaccuracy, and compounded that by leaving the false impression that the Duke wall described in the call was right there at the house - when it is actually ACROSS A BUSY THROUGH STREET, a street that is a public street bordering the east campus, a street that is used not just by students, but by a number of the residents of Durham. The media was there and could not help but notice these facts, but didn't bother to describe the location in an accurate manner. In that original call of which I am speaking, the young woman also does NOT identify herself as one of the dancers; now she has been interviewed (in silhouette) and is admitting to having made that first call. If you're interested, you might want to check out the interview on Abrams show.

While the media in your area may not have reported this call, here in NC, and on some of those rather sleazy shows (like Raspy Rita Cosby) on the cable networks, this call was used as part of the story from the very beginning, and used to characterize the suspects as "bad seed" (again, my characterization). This was all over all of those shows, particularly at the beginning, and none of them bothered to pay attention or investigate or report on these inaccuracies, they were too busy breathlessly reporting on the scandal to give us any useful, factual, information.

As far as I know, the alleged victim has never tried to hide that she was an exotic dancer, but the other dancer, from her interview on Abrams show today, said she didn't want her identity known because her family and friends are unaware of her work as an exotic dancer. That's not something I have a problem with, that is entirely up to her, it is not for me to judge. I also could care less about the exotic dancer aspect, I don't have a prudish or fundie streak about that kind of thing - I might have thought differently when I was younger, but I grew out of it a long time ago!

I'm not sure what article you're talking about that negates the defense claim that she was intoxicated when she arrived at the party. I don't think I addressed that issue in my original post, and I'm not going to without checking to determine whether that is fact or opinion.

I'm not going to make any judgements on the innocence or guilt of ANYONE in this ugly mess until there are clear facts in evidence; I do regret however that so many already have.

Thanks for your post.

[ms liberty]

182. No, I do not have a link to that 911 call...

I have not heard it on the internet, I have heard it numerous times on TV. In fact, as I was writing that post, they played the call I'm referring to on Dan Abrams show on MSNBC. I was glad to hear that, because I wanted to know if my memory of it from before was accurate. I've heard it twice today now, because I watched Abrams show both times it aired today, the second time just to double check myself.

The call I was talking about was the one where a woman called to say someone had yelled racial slurs as they were "walking" and then later in the call "driving" by. This is NOT the call from the Kroger grocery store parking lot, where the security guard called the police out when the woman was in someone's car allegedly passed out.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

97. Thank you, ms liberty

Beautiful. The voice of knowledgeable reason, a breath of fresh air in this intolerance rush-to-judgment miasma that seems to have seeped out of the minds of people who would DIE if you were to call them on what they are.

Your post said it all. It was so good, I might stop toying with these unenlightened types.

Thank you again.

[nashville_brook]

126. sadly, she doesn't have the facts

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8756511/detail.html

[ms liberty]

175. Thank YOU OLL: I value your opinions greatly

and always look forward to hearing your point of view. I greatly appreciate your kind praise!

[nashville_brook]

125. here's the 411 on the 911 call -- there's more to it than what you have...

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8756511/detail.html

The woman admitted calling 911 to report racial epithets yelled at her and the accuser as they left the party. But she said the details of the incident became jumbled in her call because she was trying to hide the fact that she had been performing at the party.

The woman said her parents don't know she makes a living as an exotic dancer, and she was afraid the information would be made public if she had been upfront with the 911 dispatcher.

"The defense feels like they can say anything they want to because they know we don't want to put ourselves out there," the woman said, noting that defense attorneys have implied the two dancers hatched a plan to accuse the lacrosse players to extort money from them. "They know that we don't want to go on any news channels and put our faces in front of thousands of people."

But the woman said she decided to speak out because she has tired of statements made by defense attorneys since last week, when DNA tests failed to link any of the lacrosse team members to the accuser. "I have every confidence in the (district attorney) and the police," the woman said. "I honestly feel like they wouldn't be investigating a crime if they didn't feel a crime had occurred."

[LisaL]

162. This woman called 911 right after leaving the house, complained

about being called a racial slur. Never mentioning any rapes. I am sorry, but what would you be more upset at-being called a name or a gang rape?
Then she takes the alleged victim to a parking lot, and never mentions anything about rape again.
Pardon me if I am not going to buy "there was a rape" on what evidence is available.

[nashville_brook]

188. no one is asking anyone to 'buy' anything, but i would hope that DU'rs

would be more aware of class.... would show more class...

[ms liberty]

198. Yes, I agree with you there...

As someone without a college degree, as the daughter of a seamstress who never finished high school, as the granddaughter of poor, rural, southern farmers on one side, and even poorer, sharecropping, rural, southern farmers on the other side, I too wish people would show more class, and be aware of class differences.

I also wish people would judge others by the content of their character. I'd like to see people make decisions based on facts, knowledge, common sense, and reason rather than knee jerk reactions based on personal prejudices.

Of course, I'd also like to win the lottery...and there's probably a better chance of that than the above in some instances.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

246. On the other hand,

isn't this better than discussing Tom Cruise's impending placenta dinner?

Or is it?

:toast:

[Critters2]

263. Well, yeah, it's better than that, if those are my choices...n/t

[LisaL]

205. What is that supposed to mean?

[ms liberty]

196. I was listening to that call on Dan Abrams show as I was typing my post...

I was not attempting to address all the facts of either this case, or the first 911 call in my original post. I was pointing out the contradictions in that call - which my husband and I noticed the first time we heard it. I was also pointing out the hype and hysteria, and the general lack of actual news-gathering and reporting of the media. I am also dismayed by some of the knee-jerk reactions I've seen here on DU, because in some cases critical thinking skills have just gone right out the window.

Perhaps you misread my post, or misread the meaning of my post.

I have not seen the news report you've posted, I don't live in the Raleigh/Durham area; the only interview I've seen with the young woman who made the first call was the televised interview on Dan Abrams show today. I was watching that show as I was typing my original post, and in fact I have now seen that show twice - because of that interview and because they replayed that first 911 call. I was very interested in making sure I remembered the original call accurately, and I wanted to hear what the young woman had to say.

[TankLV]

200. Thankyou for saying what I've been thinking, only getting carried away in

the heat of the arguments.

If these guys are guilty, there should be hell to pay, but if that woman has been lying, then I also hope she has hell to pay as well.

That is all.

[Rich Hunt]

107. not everyone who goes to a good university is 'rich'

I come from a blue-collar family.

People ought to take a stand based on principle and not prejudice.

Even affluent people can be scapegoated.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

120. Bingo

Hasn't this been interesting, though, watching the biases based on ignorance come flying out of people's butts?

[ms liberty]

199. Exactly...

Duke University has a policy: if you've got the grades, and you want to go to Duke, they'll find a way for you to go, through grants, scholarships, et cetera. I know this because my niece had the grades to go to Duke. She chose instead to go to a smaller, womens college closer to home, and she's very happy there, but if she had wanted it, she'd be at Duke now.

[nashville_brook]

128. actually, the minds seemed most tightly clamped around the

rich white guys.

i mis-read your initial post. i can't be down with that.

[Exiled in America]

212. Ok. I've seen this over and over, and I'd like to clear it up now:

The "presumption of innocence" is a principle refering to the COURT OF LAW.

An individual is not "less" good or less "american" or less "democratic" or less anything else if he believes someone is guilty before they're proven guilty in court. He/she is simply a person with an opinion that may or may not be based on reasonable thinking.

So can we dial the rheotoric down to about 5 please?

[LostinVA]

215. Thanks for making that point, Exiled

[nashville_brook]

11. i think the story on the DNA was there wasn't any DNA

anyone have info?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. There was none n/t

[endarkenment]

12. There is major money going to the defense legal team.

And that major money ran a concerted 'drunken whore was asking for it' pr campaign last week in the media. I assume it is the DAA (although most likely not officially) putting up the money, although I have no evidence for that, it is just my guess. I assume that if indictments were handed down there is likely a lot of other evidence that makes the lack of DNA matches not particularly important.

On the other hand it could be 'aggressive DAs out for a career boost', which is the latest pr campaign from the defense.

I'll wait for the trial before trying the case.

[onenote]

15. DAA = Duke Alumni Association? Not likely

Nice unsubstantiated assumption. Why is it "most likely" that the DAA is putting up the defense team's money. Since my wife is a member of the DAA and no one is asking her for $$ for this, I think a far more reasonable assumption is that the parents of these students are putting up the money for the defense. I don't know the particulars about the financial status of the Duke lacrosse team players, but it wouldn't come as a great shock if at least some of them come from well-to-do families.

onenote

[nashville_brook]

24. is this well-connected enough? (right you are)

(this is a story about a shadowy private interest group of the father of team captian: Bruce E. Thompson Jr. Vice president, director of government relations Merrill Lynch & Co)


THE DISTRICT’S POWER BEHIND THE SCENES
Washington Post-connected business group wields influence over city’s legislative agenda

http://red-states.com/ssquirrel/index.php/2006/04/14/why/
--scroll down in story for this --

By KATHRYN SINZINGER
Staff Writer
An exclusive group of largely wealthy Washington area business people has for years been working behind the scenes with the city’s political leaders to advance its own agenda for the nation’s capital - often without D.C. residents’ input and almost always without wide knowledge of its efforts. Membership in the private and generally secretive group, called the Federal City Council, is highly selective. Washington Post Publisher Donald E. Graham serves as nominating committee chairman for the organization, which was founded in 1954 by his father, the late Post Publisher Philip L. Graham.

Legislative influence of the group, which has close ties to the Washington Post, extends from the D.C. City Council and the mayor’s office to the halls of Congress and the White House, according to sources interviewed for this story.

-----------------------------------

just an example of money, power and influence as blood-relation to the lacrosse players.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. Damn. Well, then, the kid MUST be guilty

Right?

Who CARES who the parents are?

Do you honestly think that only wealthy men commit rape?

Jesus. This is heartbreaking, this level of bigotry.

[bettyellen]

47. where is race mentioned in this post you call bigoted?

i see money power + influence, seems to be a class thing to me.
perhaps you intended to reply to a different post, because you are way off claiming that one is bigoted.
that's inflammatory bullshit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. I'm all for the other people eating their words

But I'm also for you (yes, you in particular, of the hyperbolic charge to match any emanating from other quarters with opposite intent, you, Old Leftie Lawyer, so convinced is he, you, yes, yes, you, I said yes, yes...) being willing to eat yours (yes, your own, those belonging to Old Leftie Lawyer, so convinced is he of it one way) should the occasion (as it were) arise.

There's word-eatin' to go around aplenty in this case, I should think, and I'm eager to see the chow down in all quarters.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

73. OK

What did you just say?

You've been reading James Joyce again, haven't you? I knew this would happen.

:-)

[alcibiades_mystery]

75. Damn that modernism

Remember technical writing classes, alcibiades_mystery! Remember technical writing classes: clarity, conciseness! Clarity!

Revision: I hope you end up choking on crow.

Cheers! :toast:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

83. Crow

With fava beans and a nice Chianti.

:woohoo:

[alcibiades_mystery]

127. Plenty to go around, in any case

;-)

[nashville_brook]

123. read the post this is a reply to, AND this guy is the father of one of

the three men who prevented the woman from leaving.

that information is in the link i provided, but i didn't spell that out in my post.

[northzax]

56. that's one of 45, by the way

we don't know if he is one of the charged players, yet.

By the way, a guy on my crew team in college was the son of a billionaire. and yet me? the son of a teacher. So there really isn't all that much guilt by association. (and if there is a sport even more geared towards rich people than lacrosse it's crew, where the equipment to get started will set a program back 50 grand or so, minimum.)

[nashville_brook]

the father of one of the THREE who wouldn't let the woman leave

read the article

[northzax]

124. and? he's been accused of what, exactly?

if she was really acting as described by the police who found her at the convenience store, maybe not letting her leave is smart. after all, you let a drunk person leave your party, you're liable.

it can be spun so many ways.

[nashville_brook]

136. okay, the poster i was replying to was refuting defense funds coming

from an alumni group. to back him up, i offered that the three men most legally exposed, prolly don't need the help of alumni boosters -- they're fairly well-heeled -- that's why i brought up the status of the father.

to say the father is guilty of something, now that's just weird.

[onenote]

232. but the two indicted and charged aren't the one's mentioned

in the article...does that trouble anyone? According to the police report on SmokingGun, the woman specifically claimed that she was assaulted by "Matt, Brett, and Adam". The two guys that she reportedly identified from photos, and that have been charged, are named Reade and Collin.

Hmmmmm....

onenote

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Where do people come up with this bullshit?

Why does anyone presume to know who's paying for whose defense?

Total bullshit.

[nashville_brook]

21. one of the team captains doesn't need much money help...

this article goes into some detail on the money/power connections...

http://red-states.com/ssquirrel/index.php/2006/04/14/why/

Bruce and Kathy Thompson (parents of Bret Thompson -- team captain)
Chevy Chase, MD 20815-4805

Bruce E. Thompson Jr., First Vice President, Sr. Director of Government Relations, Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc., Washington, DC
Mr. Thompson represents Merrill Lynch in all legislative and executive branch matters of interest to the firm and to the financial services industry. He is also responsible for policy analysis and development, and for keeping Merrill Lynch and its clients apprised of government policy developments. Prior to joining Merrill Lynch in 1986, Mr. Thompson served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Legislative Affairs, the department’s chief representative to Congress. He is a Duke parent

[northzax]

30. not DAA

ESPN reported last week that a small group of athletic boosters were paying legal fees for Bob Bennett (Clinton's impeachment lawyer) at least.

[Marie26]

31. They've hired Bob Bennett?

Because this wasn't enough of a media circus already, I guess. I'm expecting F. Lee Bailey to show up any minute now.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

39. He's been disbarred

Poor FLee. He never really got it right after the OJ thing.

I think he's living in Florida.

[Marie26]

48. Poor baby.

There's one hope crushed. Maybe Mark Geragos can take up the slack.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. No kidding

Johnnie Cochran got his, so now I guess it IS Mark's turn.

[northzax]

58. when a circus breaks out

might as well hire a circus master, right?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2406672

[onenote]

68. and when Clinton hired Bennett, what did you think then?

[Marie26]

156. You all are out in force today!

Since I had no idea who Bob Bennett was at the time, I had absolutely no opinion. Does that answer your question?

[Warren Stupidity]

66. "a small group of athletic boosters "

Which would fit in with the OP's admittedly unsubstantiated assumption about where the money was coming from. Like it was difficult to take a wild ass guess and hit that barn broadside.

[onenote]

71. how does it fit?

A small group of athletic boosters is not the same thing, or even close to the same thing, as the Duke Alumni Association.

onenote

[TankLV]

202. I prefer the term "atheletic SUPPORTERS" heh heh heh!

[nashville_brook]

17. you can raped without DNA, and bring a rape indictment without DNA

i visual ID has most likely been provided which led to the two sealed indictments.

[LisaL]

169. So, where is the third fella?

A pity that this "victim" apparently couldn't pick all three even though their pictures were all over campus after she said they raped her. A pity, indeed, cause one "vicious rapist" is going to get away with it, I guess.

[EC]

26. So, they wore rubbers?

There is a charge, and as I understand it at least 2 witnesses?

[zann725]

51. The results came back "negative" after TWO DAYS passed before house

was "examined" by "authorities."

Can't assign blame ahead, but these ARE rich boys, AND rich boy ATHLETES in a conservative, prestigious college...so tilting of the justice scale, and DNA results, "losing" evidence, silencing witnesses, etc. is all but sure ("positive") to occur.

[adriennui]

132. don't generalize about all being rich boys

and i won't generalize about strippers. OK?

[LisaL]

154. LOL.

She was taken to the rape exam that same morning.
The DNA evidence was collected from her. None was found anywhere on her that matched any of the players.
HTF do you think that's possible?

[LisaL]

174. The DNA was supposed to be in her, if she was raped.

She was examined the same night/morning.

[SKKY]

8. Isn't that just a bit much???

The DNA came back negative. Even the other stipper that was with her that night said she
saw nothing to corroborate what the alleged victim claims happened. Should we assume the
"Dumb Jocks" from the elite school are guilty?

[endarkenment]

13. Did I say they should be presumed guilty?

Rremind me where exactly I said that.

[SKKY]

25. Not in so many words...

...but then again you didn't really need to, now did you? Saying things like, "The Drunken Whore was asking for it" and "The Duke alumni associacion will press to get this swept away" only lend themselves to the presumption that they did it (or you think they did), and because they attend an "elite" school, they'll get away with it. Why don't you just go ahead and call them Kennedys or something overt like that?

[endarkenment]

227. You misunderstood my post.

Either that or you are naive. Do you think that there is not a concerted effort by the well funded defense team to try this case in the media, and that the basic theme of their media campaign is 'the drunken whore was asking for it'?

I have no idea about the actual merits of the case as currently almost all the information publicly available is spin from the defense team being regurgitated by the scandal obsessed media. I do know a spin campaign when I see one however, and we are in the midst of a major effort.

Oh, by the way, the defendents are entitled to the best defense they can obtain, and in our current system that includes playing the scandal media exactly the way it is being played. But it is what it is.

[LisaL]

208. Before presuming anyone guilty or innocent, do you know who

"they" are?

[JackORoses]

27. the tests

did not come back negative.

It's not as if there was DNA there, but it didn't match the players.

They just showed no DNA evidence was present.

DNA evidence is not the end-all, be-all of investigation.

[BlueIris]

98. What's this? A comment from a sane person?

Stick around, fellow sane poster.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. Yes

Because the people here who are so quick to believe that a rape occurred are in a mighty hurry to lynch the "rich white boys" who haven't even been charged with a crime.

So, the answer is "Yes," you should assume that anyone from Duke who is charged with anything - especially where a minority is involved - is guilty and should be, if there is to be true justice in this world, immediately and summarily executed.

Those Khmer Rouge had nothing on some of these DUers I'm watching.

[LostinVA]

65. That's not what the other woman said n/t

[Iris]

106. or should we just let the justice system work this out?

That might be a novel approach.

[LisaL]

157. Oh please.

What evidence is there that the woman, whether she was a "drunken whore who asked for it" or not, was raped by any of the lacrosse players, or by anyone, for that matter?

[leftchick]

3. leftchick: BFD!

:eyes:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

6. Who cares?

Are people really THAT bored that anything about this matter is of interest to them? Or are they all Duke alumni?

Natalee Holloway, Duke lacrosse players.

WHO CARES?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

32. What "gang rape"?

Ever hear of the "presumption of innocence," or does the idea of the American Constitution make you uncomfortable with your pre-set ideas of guilt and innocence?

Shame on you.

[bettyellen]

37. doh, the alleged rape that two fellas will soon be arrested for....

and charged with.
you know, the basis of these indictments, which is the subject of this thread you find beneath you but somehow can't leave?

[LisaL]

163. Why are they arresting two fellas and not three?

Weren't there supposed to be three rapists? I guess one got away, or what?

[bettyellen]

239. i don't pretend to know. i'll leave that to you.

[Marie26]

40. Why shouldn't we care

about the case? Presumption of innocence and all, it's going to be an explosive, important story. In NC, everybody's talking about it, and in Durham mass rallies are being held every week. The entire Duke lacrosse season has been cancelled & the coach has already resigned. The case brings out the divisions of class, race, gender, and power that still exist in our society. This is a BIG story, whatever the outcome.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

46. Because it's a local matter

If jocks weren't involved - if the Math Club had been accused of raping a hired exotic dancer - how much of this do you think would be newsworthy - if, in fact, it's newsworthy at all (which I doubt)?

It's NOT a big story. At Duke, in Durham, where the town/gown dichotomy has always been problematic, it's a big story.

A big story is that 4 more Marines got killed in Iraq today.

A big story is that the Supreme Court denied appeals from prisoners at Guantanamo.

A big story is that we're being wiretapped illegally by the President of the United States and no one is doing anything about it.

A big story is that we're heading for $4 a gallon gas, and no one is saying a word about that.

A big story is that almost 50,000,000 Americans don't have health insurance.

I suppose it's about perspective.

[Marie26]

55. It's a local matter, w/national resonance

Then why are you posting on this thread, instead of those other ones? There's lots of news out there, and people can select which stories they want to read & which issues interest them the most. In general, I've never been a big fan of the "don't cover anything but what I feel is important" theme. Based on that reasoning, we couldn't read about Asian news, or science stories, or silly celebrity stories, or even read a novel, because "more important stories" are out there. I'm following this story & also following those other important news stories. It's not a one-or-the-other thing. And if Math nerds were accused of this, it would be an even bigger story, for the sheer rarity of it. As a NC resident, I'll pay attention to this story, as college sports fans will, as Duke alumni will, etc. That should be their perogative, IMO. I guess it does just depend on your personal perspective on things.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

59. What "national resonance"?

Ask my neighbors about this Duke matter, and they'll stare blankly. It's all CNN and cable news shows that need to put SOMETHING, ANYTHING on the air.

I'm posting here - as I carefully explained to you, so sit up and pay attention - because it amuses me to watch people waste their otherwise sound gray matter and time to go over something so inane and meaningless, something that has no effect in their lives, something only salacious and unproven, and drive them nuts with my thoughts - of which, like you, they clearly don't approve.

Ah, tolerance and open minds. Presumption of innocence. Axes to grind - like the "violence against women" nonsense.

It's tabloid trash, and I'm having fun with what people are doing with it.

[bettyellen]

63. i know it amuses me to watch you waste your time, wallow in trash....

so i guess we have something in common.

[Marie26]

69. This case is a national story, w/important potential consequences

As an NC resident, if you ask my neighbors, they'll all offer their own opinions & theories. Thank you for the patronizing tone, it's nice to know that an alleged gang rape "amuses you", is "inane & meaningless", has "no effect". I work with abused women, and the results of this case could have huge repurcussions on how rape cases are treated in North Carolina. You apparantly have an axe to grind as well, and the posts have become increasingly insulting & downright nasty as a result. Part of your "axe to grind" includes concluding that everyone is assuming that these players are guilty. I am not. I do not know if these charges are true, or not, and neither do you. You're all about avoiding making "premature conclusions" and having an "open mind." Fine. If you have an open mind, you'd have to admit the possibility that these allegations are true, and that a woman was actually brutally raped. That has everything to do with violence against women, no? How is it "nonsense" to say that violence against women is an issue in a rape case? This case HAS received national attention, and will have national resonance for rape victims, college athletics, prosecutors, & race relations in general. If you're really just wasting time laughing at people, perhaps you should try using your time on all those "important stories" instead. Glad you're "having fun with it," but you'll have to excuse me if I think that's an odd way of finding entertainment.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

78. I have an open mind,

but I don't give a rat's ass about this case, the complainant, your work, or what anyone else believes about it.

I care about the women who were raped in other cities and towns all over the world today. How about them?

This is nothing but tabloid outrage, and you're buying into it.

What does it take for you to understand - as I've stated - that I don't care about this on any level except as an amusement with how corrupt and hopeless the cable news networks are, and, parenthetically, while you're spouting off, how many lives might be ruined because of what could conceivably turn out to be a false charge?

Yeah, I'm having fun on a message board, and you're too uptight to remain in my world now, so welcome to IgnoreLand, where you can continue to prattle without taking up my playtime.

[0007]

149. Exactly my feelings and you have a way with such elegance

that I'm envious of you're talent.

[Marie26]

167. Such elegance.

I almost don't know whether to laugh or cry. I don't think this board is the place for me.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

206. Have you considered how many lives could be ruined if these allegations

turn out to be FALSE - after all the things that were said about this alleged PERPETRATORS? Have you considered how your "fun" could affect MEN who must deal with FALSE rape charges in the future? Or people on this forum who have been victims OF FALSE ACCUSATIONS? Yeah, I actually care about people. It's stupid, it's naive, but there it is. So sorry I interfered w/your "playtime" on this rape thread w/reality. Tough. Maybe some of what I said made you feel uncomfortable about your actions here. Good.

But you would never consider this point of view from your statements here.

I personally don't know who to believe for sure, but I'm not will to be judge jury and executioner as you aparently are.

But, on the other hand I have NEVER yet been willing to put anybody on ignore, I value the discourse too much.

I don't like prejudice either way.

I just hope justice is received/given.

[Marie26]

238. Of course

I also hope justice is received/given, whatever that justice is. As I've said repeatedly, I DO NOT KNOW if these allegations are true. I have no problem w/someone having a view of innocence, guilt, whatever. I do have a problem w/a poster who states that they post here in order to laugh at this case. Whether the allegations are true, or not, it is a very serious case, w/serious consequences. This is not "fun" to me.

Of course I have considered the effect if these allegations are false - which would be devestating to the ones accused, and also have a negative effect on future actual victims of rape. That's why I'm not making any judgment about guilt or innocence in this case. (so if you're concerned w/the rights of falsely accused men, you should have no problem with me.) I would hope that those arguing for innocence, or guilt, would also consider the ramifications if that view turns out to be wrong. Probably the wisest people are those who simply haven't commented on this case. I hope the DA in this case will do what is right, and what is in the public interest.

[mondo joe]

145. I have a question. What about this case is of greater national

interest than any other rape case?

Has Congress gotten involved? Is a national (or even a state) legal precedent at hand?

It seems to me the only national aspect is just that people across the country have taken a voyeuristic interest in one side or another, just like the various missing-blonde-women stories.

[Marie26]

166. I have a question

Why am I being attacked by the pro-Dukers when I've said in every post that I do not know whether the allegations are true or not? Is this some sort of group thing? I explained in my previous post why I am interested in this case. On a national level, this case gets more attention because of the prominence of the defendants' school, the brutality of the alleged crime, and because it brings up national issues about the role of college athletics, race, & class divisions. It's got it all. There is no way that this case wouldn't inspire national attention.

[mondo joe]

170. I don't know if or why you've been attacked - I'm not keeping track of

all the infighting going on over this, though there seems to be quite a lot of it.

I agree it inspires national attention, just like so many other sensational stories.

But I do question the appropriateness of it.

[TankLV]

203. Can anybody say DISTRACTION? I knew we could!

I couldn't agree more.

What are the whore media trying to nide NOW, AT THIS MINUTE?

THAT should be the most important question of the hour.

Could it be that only 5 retired generals of the perhaps HUNDREDS of active generals who are bound by silence ande honor, have said what EVERYONE but the select few REPUKES who were HANDPICKED for thier jobs by rummy would WANT to say?

Hmmmm.....

[NashVegas]

121. Says You

Given: we don't know if a rape occured.

IF: A rape did occur, specifically a gang rape of an exotic dancer, it IS a big story, it should be. I'm all for anything that gets it into peoples' heads that when a woman says 'no' it means 'no' regardless of whether she's a Catholic school girl intent on becoming a nun or an exotic dancer.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

146. If

Such a big word.

And people never make false accusations.

Uh-huh.

I don't care if she's a nun, the rules apply to everyone.

If.

No way of knowing right now, so it's a non-story, as far as I'm concerned.

[Homer Wells]

141. AMEN to that!!!!!

Just another news media game being played on the American People.:banghead:
Anything they can use will be used to draw attention away from the more serious crimes being done in our name in Washington DC. Sometimes it drives me crazy:crazy: how transparent both the media and the Bushites are and how many average 'Murikans cannot see their freedoms crashing down around them.
I think the spinning in the graves of our Founding Fathers could easily provide the power to run a small city.
God Help America!!!:yoiks: :patriot:

[mahatmakanejeeves]

142. if the Math Club had been accused of raping a hired exotic dancer

3.14159265358 members would have been involved.

Let me elaborate.

Sorry.

And it was Groucho, not Karl, who....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

147. Awwwwwwwwwww,

shaddup......

hee hee hee

:toast:

[democracyindanger]

43. Shame on me?

Lessee...I'm guilty of failing to use the word "alleged," which is a fair criticism and one I readily accept...and you're dismissing a possible gang rape as something you don't care about.

Shame on me? Heh.

[Beaverhausen]

45. The forensic nurse who examined the victim confirmed that she was raped

What we don't know is who did it, that's why there will be a trial.

I'm sure you understand how this works.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

49. No, I don't

A forensic nurse's testimony, while compelling, is not definitive. It's an opinion, that's all, and there will be differing opinions. I don't know what happens next, and, besides the sport of sparring here on this thread, I really don't care. It's fun to wind down my working day here with this sort of nonsense, that's all.

Next, WHERE IS NATALEE?

[Beaverhausen]

52. Wouldn't a forensic nurse's testimony be considered "expert" in a trial?

I assume they are going ahead with the case partly due to the nurse's findings regarding the victims injuries.

This is far different than the missing white girl case. Why can't you see that? Although in some ways, it's all part of a piece. Violence towards women is still very prevalent in our society and there is far too much "blame the victim" mentality going around if you ask me.

Not that anyone did.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. I don't know NC law,

but I can imagine that it would be.

Then, the defense puts up witnesses - presumably MDs, with miles-long resumes - who claim that those injuries are consistent with blah blah blah. That's how it works.

It's not all part of a piece, and this has nothing to do with the concept of violence against women. You might just as easily claim that it has everything to do with the concept of negating the presumption of innocence.

It's tabloid trash fodder, that's all, as far as I'm concerned. Entertaining, but about as nourishing as cotton candy. I like the play, that's all, and I don't really care about some rape claimant in NC or a missing girl in Aruba. Life has other priorities, and they matter to me.

Tabloid fodder, that's all.

[yardwork]

61. What a hate-filled post

I don't recall seeing such an insensitive post about an alleged rape since....oh, since the last time I read a Rush Limbaugh transcript.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. Alleged, that's the word

Hate-filled? Your sensibilities are too finely-high-tuned, plus your rhetoric is intoxicated.

Look, you get worked up about every allegation you read about?

Get series.

It's all a matter of "he said, she said," and, right now, that's all it is.

If you don't like my posts, ignore me.

And remember - tolerance. It's more than a concept.

[TankLV]

207. I don't see any "hate" in that post. It's all in YOUR mind.

Chill and look in the mirror.

[Marie26]

64. This has nothing to do

with the concept of violence against women? If they are guilty, it has everything to do with that. (Or have you already made up your mind?) Even w/o knowing all the allegations of this case, the fact that these students hired strippers, sent out misogynistic emails, allegedly used slurs, etc. says a lot about the attitudes that may have existed there. If this is true, I do care about some rape claimant in NC. That's so dismissive & disturbing to me.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

62. I believe so

The standard is a person with "special knowledge, skill, training or education to qualify the witness as an expert on the subject." A forensic nurse would be more than qualified to speak about the forensic evidence in this case.

[AngryAmish]

79. My friend we are not on the jury

The presumption of innocence attaches only to the trier of fact. As far as I can tell we are still free to form and state our own opinions. Do not confuse Constitutional mandates with interpersonal communication. The Constitutional protections do not apply here.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

102. No, we are in America,

and it's ugly to watch people forget that there are Constitutional guarantees in place for all of us all the time, not just when someone's a juror.

Didn't you know that?

[AngryAmish]

112. As a simple matter of fact you are wrong

The Bill of Rights applies to what the government can do to you, not what fellow citizens can do to you. For example an employer vastly limits your free speech rights at work (you can get fired for calling your boss a turd but you cannot be arrested for calling Bush a turd).

Where is it said that citizens cannot debate the events of the day and form opinions based on what they know? I think it is bullying to say "you can't think that" and act like people with a contrary opinion are somehow violating the Constitution. They are not. Attack them for jumping to a conclusion. Attack them for making up their minds before they know all the facts. But they are still entitled to an opinion.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

119. This is DU

and I expect respect for the simple facts and rules of the Constitution, which, like it or not, define your daily life, should be held to a standard a big higher than that of freerepublic.com.

After a lifetime of defending the Constitution as my work, I find these rushes to judgment to be abhorrent and distinctly counter to what I like to think of as the good America I know and love.

Slander, slur, defame, defile, gossip, people are free to do it all.

And I am free to come here and remind them of their shortcomings. As I am now reminding you of yours.

[LisaL]

180. Yea, we are free to form an opinion.

For instance, I am free to presume the players didn't rape anyone.
Do you have a problem with that?
I have seen no evidence to convince me otherwise.

[Marie26]

184. Perfectly valid opinion

IMO, it is also a perfectly valid opinion to believe that these allegations are true. Because NONE of us knows the truth here. Only the players & the alleged victim know the truth at this point.

[AngryAmish]

225. No problem with your opinion

We can debate and not close our minds to all options because of some silly supposed mandate that does not apply to us.

[NashVegas]

117. This Is Not a Court of Law

And we're not the jury. If people wish to speculate, it's their perogative.

[LisaL]

204. While we are speculating, who exactly is guilty?

I mean, the names of the alleged rapists haven't been named, but yet they are still guilty?
Without even knowing who they are?
And where is the third guy? I guess the "rapist" is getting off.
What a shame.

[leftchick]

221. I really am amazed at threads like this

it is like watching CNN and MSRNC! Boring. And threads on global warming and dead soldiers in Iraq get less than ten replies. Simply amazing.

[Marie26]

9. Do they know yet who they're against? nt

[Jersey Devil]

22. Probably will be announced shortly

Indictments are usually sealed only when necessary and probably will be unsealed as soon as the Defendants are either arrested or turn themselves in for booking.

[nashville_brook]

10. here's some intersting stuff via sad squirrel

S(ad) Squirrel had an interesting piece.

http://red-states.com/ssquirrel/index.php/2006/04/14/why/

It just struck me as strange. Why was Fox News attacking a rape victim? Why was Tucker Carlson on MSNBC? Were they just attacking a black women with no money going against some rich white kid? I figured there had to be a Republican somewhere. Maybe a Bush “Pioneer” or two? So I looked around…

(snip)

Sad Squirrel has dug up the nuts on Bruce E. Thompson Jr. Vice president and director of government relations for Merrill Lynch & Co. He seems also to be part of some secret politically powerful group with connections to the Washington Post. And while he doesn’t seem to be a Bush Ranger or Pioneer his Boss sure is(E. Stanley O’Neal Chair, CEO & President Merrill Lynch & Co. )

So if you too were wondering why those classy people of the Right Wing Media like Fox News, or maybe Tucker Carlson at MSNBC’s The Situation with Tucker Tailspin, would attack a women who reported being cruelly gang raped by three white guys, would imply she’s a liar and a tramp and probably deserved it, I really have no idea. I really don’t understand why anyone with a shred of morality or integrity would do such a thing.

it's a nice bunch of googling -- maybe we can add...

[Marie26]

14. Interesting blog, but bad link

Just wanted to let you know that the link you posted had two "https", so people can't get to the blog that way. He's really done a lot of work on this.

http://red-states.com/ssquirrel/index.php/2006/04/14/why/

[nashville_brook]

18. thanks! fixed.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

42. She's not a "rape victim"

No crime has been proven to have taken place.

She's a complainant, that's all. She's alleging that a rape took place.

[JackORoses]

23. the victim

positively identified two of the alleged offenders, and possibly recognized a third.

I would guess that this is the reason for the two indictments.

[Jersey Devil]

44. ID cases with no forensic evidence are the most dangerous

One of the first cases I ever saw was an ID case where a jewelry store was held up and the robber pointed a gun at the woman running the store. The thief got the money and ran. Some time later the police rode the victim around in a police car and she picked out the Defendant sitting on a porch and positively identified him as the robber. He was indicted and went on trial.

Luckily for the Defendant, the victim described the robber as 5'6" tall and when the Defendant stood up on the courtroom he was 6'2". There was no other evidence tying him to the crime. Despite the height difference, which the victim could not explain, she continued to insist the Defendant was the robber and said she "looked at him eyeball to eyeball down the barrel of his gun, a face I will never forget".

The jury was out for 5 minutes (long enough to have a cigarette, which was allowed in those days) before coming back with a not guilty verdict.

Ever since that case I have always realized just how dangerous a case based on identification alone can be when there is no circumstantial evidence to back it up and how fortunate that Defendant was to be tall. If his genes determined that he would be 5'6" or thereabouts he would have spent the next 10-15 years in prison.

[Marie26]

77. I hope they have

more than just the ID if the DA is taking this to trial. ID's can be unreliable, especially cross-racial identification. But I wouldn't worry too much about these Defendants. They have a very good, high-priced criminal defense team, that is well-aware of the studies on mistaken defendant ID's & will be sure to use them in arguments and cross-examination. Most mistaken ID convictions occur when the defendant is a minority, w/o effective defense counsel. I think it's less of a danger in a case like this.

[Jersey Devil]

82. good points

but I still get the willies whenever I think of that robbery case many years ago.

[LisaL]

160. What can they have? I don't think there was any crime.

The stripper's story is full of holes.
Her friend, the other stripper, made the 911 call, complained of being called a racial slur, but never mentioned anything about any rape.
I mean, come on, they were both inside, and the second stripper didn't see anything?
The whole story is complete and utter nonsense, IMO.

[Marie26]

161. I have no idea what they have.

I just said that ID alone is going to make for a weak case.

[superconnected]

99. wouldn't it be cool if victims could id their attackers.

Instead, even here, it looks like people are going to discredit her because she is a stripper and decide somehow, she doesn't have any valid say in who she believes raped her.

[BlueIris]

105. Hey, another sane person!

I've been very disturbed to see so many posters here refer to the woman as a "stripper," over and over and over again, as if that is relevant to the charge. Stick around, fellow sane, non-misogynist poster. It's getting pretty scary around here.

[LisaL]

153. Who she believes raped her?

LOL.
With no DNA evidence, and her being in the drunk/intoxicated state, even if she was raped (which I very much doubt) how would you trust her ID?

[Lars39]

191. Has her blood alcohol levels been made public?

Or is this just speculation on your part as usual?

[0007]

53. Wish they'e hurry and get this one out of the way.....But I'm

afraid this story is gonna stay at the top for a long time.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

93. Yes, she was

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

86. Since I'm an alumna and great supporter of Duke

athletics, especially men's basketball (see avatar), I have not participated in these lacrosse students/rape allegation forums in fear that my opinions on the matter would be summarily dismissed as the rantings of an avid fan.

First, let me point out that I, like many others at Duke, am not a wealthy person, nor are my parents wealthy. I went to North Carolina State for my undergrad and even then I went to the Duke campus (especially the West campus, the one with the Gothic architecture) and I hung out with many of the students.

In this matter, I am very much agnostic; that is, I don't know what happened, since I wasn't there and I have not seen any evidence pro or con. From what has transpired, it seems that, to paraphrase the Bard, something is rotten in Denmark, but what that is I do not know.

Someone is either outright lying or not telling 100% of the truth. On one hand, it would not be improbable or the first time for a bunch of college guys to rape a woman. On the other hand, the account of the woman's whereabouts and the 911 call made by her friend are somewhat problematic.

What I dislike about this sordid mess is the way Duke has been portrayed by the media, as a haven for white rich spoiled brats. There surely are white rich spoiled brats at Duke, but there are plenty pretty much on every campus in the U.S., even at NC State or, gasp!, even at UNC-Chapel Hill. Intolerance is everywhere, not solely confined to Duke's campus. Yet, the media fail to mention that many of Duke's African American athletes, some of whom are now millionaires in the NBA and NFL, have reported a much different atmosphere than what it transpires today. As for the media and its attention to the defense's spin of facts, let me just say, by qualifying (again) that I am not privy to the facts and/or evidence, that the defense's job is to defend its clients zealously, regardless of guilt, and that in the U.S. system of justice one is innocent until proven guilty and guilt or innocence should not be determined by the lack or abundance of melanin in one's skin.

Surely, let's not forget that there is an election for the office of the Durham District Attorney, because after all politics is just as much a part of this case as all other issues and evidence.

[northzax]

92. to be fair, there may not be anyone lying

since the accused are not saying anything publically, except through their lawyers, who may not know if they really did something. So technically, they're just not saying anything at all.

I'm not a Dukie, but three of my closest friends are, and this is not the place they describe, or the people they are. Of course, I also know lacrosse players, who are, in general, assholes (when they are in a group, at least) I had good friends in college who were lacrosse players, and even then I couldn't stand them when the groupthink came into play.

[0007]

108. Wasn't junior an intramural lacrosse player?

[northzax]

111. his cousin Billy Bush

now of Access Hollywood fame, was an all-american in college. He did throw great parties though. (he was a senior when I was a freshman in teh early 90s, i had friends on the team)

[0007]

193. Is this Billy Bush?

He looks normal compared to his cousin.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

168. Wasn't junior an intramural lacrosse player?

No. Bush played rugby. I'm sure you remember the picture of him punching someone. Kerry played lacrosse at St. Paul's (the one in New Hampshire, not the one in Baltimore) and at Yale.

Google Images for "kerry lacrosse"


This one is from 1959. Kerry is in the back row, second from the right. I love those old sticks.


I am guessing this one was taken in 1962, when he was a senior. Kerry is #23. #32 looks familiar. I'm sure that's Robert S. Mueller III, the director of the FBI. He was the team captain.

Google for "kerry lacrosse mueller" for more information.


Here he is in his hockey team picture. He's the tall one in the back.


Here he is at Yale, #14. He certainly put on a few pounds. Plastic heads on lacrosse sticks were not yet on the horizon.

Some of those pix at Google Images seem to be of his daughter Vanessa playing lacrosse at Yale. Vanessa Kerry was a four-year varsity lacrosse player at Yale; she was a third-team Academic All-American in 1999.

This information has been shamelessly ripped off from. We extend thanks to the unwitting original poster.

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?p=331957#post331957

[ugarte]

95. I'm glad to see your post

I don't know much about Duke besides basketball, but it sure seems like a lot of people at DemocraticUnderground have it in for the place. In fact, they seem kind of delighted that Duke is being dragged through the mud,

I don't get it.

[superconnected]

101. could it be their inital response.

I'm glad even their own students protested how they were handling the matter.

[LostinVA]

110. No, it seems there are alot of people here tired of the age-old

smear tactics against rape victims... because, the woman was raped. Now, it needs to be determined by who. The gleeful rabidness of many, many posters the last week in ripping apart the victim has been, frankly, disgusting, disconcerting, and misplaced. She has been called a prostitute, had it said she was raped by her pimp or put up by him to "frame" the "boys," been a drunk, a felon, a liar, a Tawna Brawley, a criminal, that lots of women lie about being raped, etc. The woman WAS RAPED. UNless you think the ER personnel are liars and colluders. THAT'S what 90%+ people have been reacting to. Including the many women on DU who have been raped, and are seeing all the rape accuser myths played out again.

I've seen much of that response, compared to the few posts about Duke.

And, I lived in NC for 17 years, went to college in the Piedmont, had friends and acquaintances at Duke. And, even though I know every kid at Duke doesn't come from rich families, it still very, very much had that rep for a reason: many kids do. JUst like kids at UVA, Emory, Georgetown, etc. Being elite-type white kids doesn't make you a rapist, but it does make the contrasts in this case more... interesting to the media. And more inflammatory to many NC locals.

[ugarte]

113. I'm trying to think of an analogy with another school...Yale, for instance

is in a depressed town, surrounded by poverty and is also full of many rich kids, but I don't think it engenders quite the backlash that Duke does. And I'm just trying to figure out why.

[LostinVA]

133. As I said, I lived in NC for 17 years, and never saw this backlash

I think Chapel Hill was actually picked on a bit more... and ECU was the party school.

[Blue_Tires]

197. exactly n/t

[democracyindanger]

114. So the players must be given

a complete presumption of innocence, but it's okay to accuse the DA of pushing this case just to get elected.

Hilarious.

[FiveGoodMen]

130. The players must be given the presumption of innocence.

That's the way American justice works (when it works at all).

They may turn out to be guilty, but, yes they must be given the presumption of innocence until they've been tried. To abandon that is to abandon the law altogether.

[democracyindanger]

139. But it's okay to hold the DA suspect.

'Kay...

[FiveGoodMen]

140. Yes.

The DA's not on trial.

[democracyindanger]

247. And we're not on the jury.

'Presumption of innocence' is a legal fiction for the purposes of court. It does not apply to the court of public opinion, no matter how many supposed lawyers and paralegals around here say it is. And anybody who thinks the DA is bringing a rape case to trial just to get elected probably is worse at politics than they are at armchair legal analysis.

[FiveGoodMen]

250. The court of public opinion has no place in this case

The legal system is handling it as it should. This is none of your business (or mine).

[democracyindanger]

254. If it's none of your business

feel free to stop posting on the topic. :shrug:

[FiveGoodMen]

259. Let me clarify.

The justice system is working. Indictments are being handed down. Juries will be empaneled. Cases will be presented. Verdicts will be reached. Unless you're on the jury, the specifics of this case are none of your business.

However, maintaining the democratic (small d) justice system -- with its absolutely crucial presumption of innocence -- is everyone's business.

[Kingshakabobo]

143. God forbid we question the motives of a POLITICIAN!! n/t

[LisaL]

158. Who is running for re-election in the near future.

Yea, why would he want to indict anyone? Maybe cause he was running his mouth, giving interview after interview, how he believes this poor woman was gang raped.

[democracyindanger]

249. You must have a magic tv that shows things that never happened

He's never given an interview. He's given statements to the press.

He's also gathered enough evidence for a grand jury to issue an indictment.

And he's not running for 're-election.'

But all those are the sorts of things that make it difficult to keep feeling sorry for the pampered kids of powerful people, so I can understand the desire by many to hang on to their fantasies.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democracyindanger]

257. I can admit I was wrong about the interviews

But you're still wrong about the re-election. And how you're wrong about the re-election demonstrates what's probably your usual method of media consumption: Eat it without asking.

Here's a hint: You have to be elected to be re-elected.

[Kingshakabobo]

260. LOL. I guess it matters was the meaning of re-elected is...is...is..is

Nice way to mince words when you have egg on your face. He's running an election campaign to keep an elected position he was appointed to when his predecessor moved up to judge.

You accuse me of swallowing media garbage when you didn't even know he gave 50 plus interviews? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[democracyindanger]

248. He's a District Attorney, not a city alderman.

Thanks for the vapid comment.

[Kingshakabobo]

252. Clearly, you lack little or no understanding how most DA's offices work.

Shame on you!

[democracyindanger]

255. I know more about DA's offices than

you know how to compose coherent sentences. "Lack little or no understanding"?

[Kingshakabobo]

262. Nice job being the typo police now that you have ZERO credibility. n/t

[LostinVA]

216. And the rape victim...

[superconnected]

94. Too bad it's sealed.

I doubt the audience knows either way.
It's interesting how people take nothing but what they would like to believe, and start acting like it's "FACT" though.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

100. Ain't it, though?

I am reduced to quoting - god help me - Clarence Thomas:

"High-tech lynching."

I must go shower now.

[keroro gunsou]

115. *sigh*

after reading all the posts in this thread, i'd like to interject my own personal sanity.
i honestly don't know enough about the case, but in the event the allegations bear out and
she was raped, the guity should be punished. presuming she's lying does the victim a disservice
and a disservice to any rape victim. also, presuming that the players are guilty simply because
they are white, well connected, and wich (sorry, couldn't resist the alliteration), shows very
little faith in one of the basic concepts of justice, innocence, til proven otherwise. let
justice be done in the court room, not the media and certainly not here. too many armchair
prosecutors with too few facts and too much time on their hands to pontificate about something
that really isn't any of their business.

rant over.

[FredScuttle]

118. You don't know enough about the case

yet you want to lecture us about "pontificating" and call us "armchair prosecutors". Uh-huh, got it.


Rape is everyone's business. There have been too many victims on this forum for us not to speak out against myths and distortions.

[FiveGoodMen]

138. What do you know about the case?

[FredScuttle]

159. Enough not to condescend to other posters

The DA believes she was raped, the medical professionals in the ER believe she was raped and she stated she was raped. That's enough information for me.

[FiveGoodMen]

240. Hope you're not on the jury with that open mind.

I'm not defending the accused, just the process by which justice is achieved in America.

[keroro gunsou]

261. well as a matter of fact, yes.

at least i admitted that i didn't know a whole lot about this case. i was responding to some of the kneejerk posts here. i wanted to keep my mouth shut until i had enough knowledge regarding the case before i said something, but i just felt i needed to say something of my own. so yes, i will lecture you about what i damned well please. you are free to listen to or ignore me.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

122. STOP MAKING SENSE!!!

You're screwing it up for all the professional victims and kneejerk bigots.

So, just cut it out. Rationality and reasoning have no place here.

Repent. I mean it.
:toast:

[LostinVA]

134. The medical evidence says she was raped -- she's a victim

[LisaL]

151. The medical evidence says nothing of the sort.

[FredScuttle]

116. Looks like the seal done barked

A defense attorney confirmed to ESPN that two players have been indicted:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2411358

[Beaverhausen]

135. and no one is responding to your post

interesting.

[jberryhill]

144. Is one of them the player who is named in this thread...

...along with his parents and their biography?

[FredScuttle]

164. I don't know

Ask the defense attorney Robert Ekstrand who released this information to begin with:

DURHAM, N.C. - A grand jury issued sealed indictments Monday against two members of the Duke University lacrosse team in connection with allegations that a stripper was raped last month at a team party, a defense attorney said.

"Today, two young men have been charged with crimes they did not commit," attorney Robert Ekstrand said in a statement. "This is a tragedy. For the two young men, an ordeal lies ahead. ... They are both innocent."

Ekstrand, who represents dozens of players, did not say which players were indicted or what charges they faced.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse_15

As for the player's info being public, blame the Duke Athletic Department which had names, pictures and bios of all the lacrosse players on its website before vanishing them as soon as this case became public (2 weeks after the crime occurred)

[onenote]

231. No its not.

[Pavulon]

137. I'm Surprised

I was thinking a 50/50 chance the complainant and her friend were going to be charged with giving false statement.

[LisaL]

152. The DA goes to the grand jury and asks for charges.

Do you seriously think this DA is going to ask the grand jury to charge the woman? Hell no. WHat has he got- a month before the election?

[LostinVA]

218. Why? There is medical evidence the woman was raped

And why would the OTHER dancer have been charged with making a false statement? Anything exonerating the players has only come from the defense attorney. I have no idea is they are the rapists or not, but the woman was raped, there are independent witnesses who heard racial epithets coming from the home, and the DA has who knows what other evidence. Plus, the other dancer came out today saying much of what the defense attorney has said publicly isn't true. None of this is enough for a conviction, but it is enough for grand jury indictments... which has happened.

I just wonder where the trial will be held. There's no way it can be in Durham, because of public backlash against both sides. Raleigh and Greensboro are too close. They'll probably have it in Andrews or Monroe or someplace!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

148. Just like you, I have no idea what the DA

presented to the grand jury. I guess it will come out in time. But releasing indictments is not an indication that the indicted parties are guilty. Someone above suggested I criticized the DA and I was showing bias for doing that. Again, I reiterate, I do not know the facts of the case nor do I have evidence. However, the DA could have handled this matter much better and instead of proclaiming the DNA test results as the be-all of the case, he could have put a stop to all this media circus that has developed.

[LisaL]

150. DA only presents prosecution evidence.

Basically nothing is needed for the grand jury to indict someone.
This was not the only case in the grand jury today-they had a large number of other cases-and everyone got indicted.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

155. Indeed.

Grand juries are very much one-sided affairs and the saying "you can indict a ham sandwich" is quite true (disclaimer: this does not mean I discredit the accuser/defendants).

[LisaL]

172. Exactly.

You can indict a ham sandwich.
This woman, who less than an hour later was described a passed out drunk, and had to be carried out of the home, made an ID?
Lets assume she was actually raped (and that's a big assumption).
Who is going to believe she picked the right people? And for crying out loud, where is the third guy?
She claimed that three men raped her, not two.
Why is the third one getting off the hook?

[FredScuttle]

177. Let's assume she was raped?

No thanks, I'll go by the medical professionals' opinion that this woman was raped, thanks.

And who described her as a passed out drunk? I know the defense was floating that. Also a police officer who later changed his report after she was taken to the hospital.

As for the third rapist, could it be one of the non-lacrosse team members at the party? Could the the DA be leaning on a cooperating witness or one of the indicted players to give up the third attacker?

You can indict a ham sandwich, true....especially if the sandwich committed rape, sodomy and assault on a woman.

[LisaL]

179. Considering the burden of proof is on prosecution, not the

defense, do you see anything wrong with me presuming the lacrosse players innocent?
Or what?
Sorry if I don't think they committed any rape, sodomy or assault. You got some problem with "presumed innocent until proven guilty in the court of law"? Do you think it should be "guilty because a woman said so?"

[FredScuttle]

181. No, I have a problem with you saying it's a big leap to assume this woman

was raped. I have no problem with you presuming the innocence of the lacrosse players. However, to me, there's no "if" about the rape occurring. This woman was subject to a brutal assault and there's nothing left to "assume" about it.

[LisaL]

186. Well, I very much disagree with that.

I do not presume, or assume, or belive this woman was a subject to a brutal assualt.
I guess I should say- I really couldn't care less if you have a problem with it.

[FredScuttle]

187. Fine, I'm sure you would care even less

that I think anyone who doesn't think this woman was raped is either willfully ignorant or a fucking moron.

[LisaL]

189. Then you wouldn't be upset if I said that anyone

who buys her story needs to have their head examined?
:hi:

[FredScuttle]

190. Not in the slightest.

Glad to see we agree to disagree.

[LisaL]

194. Good. Cause I meant every word.

[FredScuttle]

195. As did I

And who said DU was regressing into personal attacks!

[TankLV]

210. Hint: Look in mirror.

Hint: I would proffer that YOU sir have STARTED the "personal attacks". The others are just replying in kind.

If you can't take the heat, I suggest you stop being the FIRST to throw the mud!

[FredScuttle]

222. Absolutely right

I started the ad hominem attacks. Guilty as charged.

[TankLV]

209. Or open minded and waiting for the evidence to be presented in a court

And there those like YOU who are just CERTAIN that these players are GUILTY NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE.

Pretty dame LIBERAL of you!

I think anybody who is PREJUDICED to see only that the woman is innocent and the men are automatically guilty are fucking ignorant and idiots.

How about them apples!

[FredScuttle]

223. You're not waiting for the "evidence"

to proclaim the victim is "lying and smearing innocent boys" to get a presumed "payoff" in another thread. Spare me your holier-than-thou pronouncements.

[LostinVA]

219. Excellent post, Fred

[gatlingforme]

185. Probable cause is something that they have obviously. why

do you come across like you know the whole story when you do not. ?????

[Umbram]

201. Shh....don't tell, but...

It's a secret- everyone who WANTS the players to be innocent KNOWS they are innocent.
Everyone who WANTS them to be guilty KNOWS they are guilty.

Come on, pick a side and ignore all evidence that doesn't support your world view...

If you join the side of the players, look forward to being called a woman-hater.
If you join the side of the woman, look forward to being called over-emotional.

[TankLV]

211. Too true, unfortunately.

[Exiled in America]

213. It's so simple to go for a rational third way:

I have no problem at all saying that it certainly wouldn't suprise me if the players were guilty. However, I don't know that they are guilty, and am waiting to see more of the evidence.

Simple, ed? Problem sovled.

It's ok to admit you wouldn't be suprised if the players were guilty, just as it is ok to admit you wouldn't be suprised of the woman is lying if that's what you feel. opinions are ok. We're not jurists. We're individuals unconnected with the case and we're free to feel whatever we feel abut it. We've all seen enough examples of both to be un-suprised. It's when you say you KNOW its one way or the other and imply that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, ignorant or in some way less of a person that you end up sounding like a moron.

[Umbram]

229. Couldn't agree more...but

when things aren't black and white then you can't be on a crusade.

Come on, pick a side and then the evidence will let you KNOW one way or another.

[LostinVA]

220. Not true -- we don't want the players to be guilty

We want people to realize the woman was raped, she is not a liar, a hoaxer, a "Tawana Brawley," a prostitute, a scuzzball with a "history," a ho, a skank, a con artist, etc. I personally am sickened by this age-old smearing of a rape victim. It She is a single mom working her way through college, she was raped, and I hope the rapists are found and convicted. It appears to be a decent guess that the Duke-owned lacrosse house was the crime scene, regardless of who the rapists are.

[FredScuttle]

224. well said, Lost

The only "rooting" those of us who believe the victim in this case are doing is for justice.

[Umbram]

228. Everyone roots for justice.

It's an easy thing to root for, so long as it's left sufficiently undefined.

[LostinVA]

233. Exactly

[Bacchus39]

237. you don't know if she was raped or not

you are assuming she was.

[Marie26]

241. According to the forensic nurse,

the injuries were consistent with sexual asssult.

"The application filed by Durham police in getting a judge to order the lacrosse players to submit DNA tests said medical records and interviews with medical personnel "revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore, the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience." SANE is the acronym for sexual assault nurse examiner."

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-719410.html

[Umbram]

256. Don't question the truthiness of it.

Here's how you determine the truth.

Step 1: Determine what you WANT to be the truth.
Step 2: Find a credible expert who has some evidence supporting your WANTED outcome.
Step 3: Accept without question all evidence given by that credible expert.
Step 4: Your expert has created THE TRUTH.
Step 5: Dismiss all evidence not supporting your new TRUTH.
Step 6: Dismiss anyone who agrees with your TRUTH using logical fallacies or ad hominems.

Example:
YOU WANT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
Find ANY credible expert who says they are there.
Weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq - IT IS THE NEW TRUTH.
Ignore all evidence questioning your new truth
Question the priorities of anyone who questions the existence of the WMD's.

Example 2:
You WANT there to (be/not be) a victim of rape in this case
You take on as your witness (DA-Nurse-etc/Def Attny-photographs-DNA)
Your witness/evidence has established YOUR NEW TRUTH
Ignore all of the evidence/witnesses that disagree
Call people who disagree with you (woman hater/over emotional).

[gatlingforme]

253. This is a tragedy. It's sad that this happened. I can care less what

others say of my opinions. There is a sarcasm key on here isn't there? LIzzy is obviously ignoring a few things.

[0007]

217. Wish there was this much concern over Rumsfeld and his sanity.

I wish there was this much concern over an out-of-control president that has taken life needlessly and now has new plans to flip off the world.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

230. Indeed

Misplaced passions, indeed, and, in my dotage, I wonder if people who are flipping out over some rape allegations in a world that will never have a thing to do with their daily lives understand that what is going on "out there in the real world" is going to destroy their lives and the lives - if they have any - of their descendants.

Tabloid mentality saddens me, but, hey, it's all about free speech.

It's also, I see, about cheap speech and rushes to judgment. Pity. I expect better from DUers, and that's my own damn fault.

[Puglover]

242. I call it "Infotainment" Americans ROLL in it like

a goddamned dog in dead fish. AND I have agreed with ALL of your posts as usual Lefty!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

244. Thanks, Pug

It's lonely out here sometimes. Good to have a buddy along the way.

:toast:

[Bacchus39]

226. the other woman present finally was interviewed

she said she witnessed nothing.

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/429871.html

[LostinVA]

234. You say she witnessed nothing, and I say she refutes the

Defense's claims.

[Bacchus39]

235. well, here it is

The woman told MSNBC that she did not witness a rape and does not know whether one occurred.

The woman said she arrived thinking that she would be dancing at a bachelor party of 15 people. She was not expecting a party of lacrosse players, many of whom she said were in a drunken stupor. The woman said she was infuriated to learn that some players photographed her dancing.

The accuser did not appear to be on drugs or to have been drinking when she arrived, the second dancer said. She was "absolutely fine and in control of herself."

When the accuser left, less than an hour after she arrived, she was incoherent and stumbling, the second dancer said.

"She couldn't really walk on her own," the woman said. "She really couldn't get her thoughts together enough to answer any questions. ... She was a different person than I met at the beginning."

The second woman said she was the person who called 911 as the party was breaking up, to complain that some lacrosse players had used racial slurs. "The boys hollered the 'N' word," she said. "I was upset and called 911."

She said she pretended to be a passer-by because she didn't want people in her life to know about her job as an escort service dancer.

It is unclear how that woman's story would affect the case. Players' attorneys have said she would only help them. By day's end Monday, Nifong left without talking to reporters; it remains unclear what evidence he has.

[LostinVA]

236. I've read it numerous times -- she totally refutes what the Defense said

She says the woman didn't have bruises, wasn't drunk/incoherent until AFTER they left, etc. I've read it, and what I say is correct. Here testimony will be very interesting -- and important for the victim -- at the trial.

[stepnw1f]

243. Looks Like Duke Has a Following Here

Strange how so many assume this woman is making it up. By reading the posts here, I'd say many have made up their minds and trying very hard to make other's minds up for them.

I will wait and see what comes of this case. I do not like the fact that it has entered public opinion the way it has so sensationally. You can thank that corporate media once again... and oh, how about our dictator and Iran... hmm.

[nashville_brook]

245. check this out!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x957110

[LisaL]

258. Well, hello.

The defense lawyers claim both have alibis.
And one wasn't at the party, and can provide receipts.
How did he manage to rape her, if true?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12366767/

[chookie]

264. Yikes

A financial transaction during the time of the party at a venue apart from the house in which the attack occurred is pretty compelling forensic evidence clearing the accused individual.

[Jersey Devil]

266. Yep, he was probably home at the time of the crime - like OJ

Maybe they will have some investigator drive the route to the ATM and back again like they did in the OJ trial.

Did the accuser also say they wore gloves or masks? If so, we can have them try them on.

[Iris]

265. Once again, the jury will decide when it sees all the evidence.

[jmm]

267. Locked

This thread has turned into flame bait. Some posters would be well advised to re-read the DU posting rules. Here are the basic rules and here are the detailed rules.