WRAL: Two Lacrosse Players Surrender To Durham Authorities

[supernova]

Two Lacrosse Players Surrender To Durham Authorities

POSTED: 6:03 am EDT April 18, 2006
UPDATED: 7:11 am EDT April 18, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- Two members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team turned themselves into authorities shortly before 5 a.m. Tuesday, one day after a grand jury reportedly returned sealed indictments against them in connection with an alleged gang rape at an off-campus party last month.

The two men, who attorneys say are sophomore Reade Seligmann and sophomore Collin Finnerty, surrendered to authorities at the Durham County Magistrate's Office at about 4:55 a.m. They are charged with first-degree forcible rape, first-degree sexual offense and kidnapping.

Finnerty, whose jersey number is 13, arrived at the magistrate's office in a suit and tie; Seligmann, whose jersey number is 45, arrived in a yellow shirt. Both were accompanied by law enforcement officers and handcuffed with their hands behind their backs. They had no comment.

Both are being held on $400,000 bond each. Sources tell WRAL that representatives for the men are waiting for banks to open at 9 a.m. so that they can post bond.

http://www.wral.com/news/8790097/detail.html

edit: Mods, I'm giving this its own thread because it moves the narrative forward and the other thread is getting too unwieldy for those on dialup.

[wakeme2008]

1. Sounds like the DA picked the rich boys not the

sons of the 9-11 policemen.

[supernova]

2. It's more than that.

Read the story.

[wakeme2008]

5. I read the story and there is no new reasons given for why these two

:shrug:

[Iris]

123. I guess we'll find out when there is a trial.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. I found this paragraph very interesting

The New York Times and Raleigh News & Observer reports that the same day Finnerty was ordered to submit a DNA sample in connection with the investigation, he was in Washington D.C. to face charges of simple assault. Finnerty and two friends were arrested early Nov. 5 after a man told an officer that the men allegedly assaulted him. They reportedly called him gay and derogatory names, busting his lip and bruising his chin, according to court records.

Does this mean that when they said none of the DNA matched, Finnerty's DNA had not been collected but now it has and it matched? This arrest for assault won't help him when he goes to trial, because it shows a pattern of behavior consistant with that alleged to have happened at Duke.

[supernova]

8. I was eyeing that paragraph as well

Mr. Finnerty definitely hasn't done himself any favors.

[Marie26]

129. Nice guy.

That's an interesting theory. But I thought they had collected DNA from all the 46 white lacrosse players?

[BrownOak]

188. According to the DA they did....

I would be curious to know when the alleged victim made her ID of this suspect. Was it before or after the reports of his arrest in Georgetown?

[Marie26]

201. She ID'd him before this arrest was published

The reports about his prior Georgetown arrest were made public in today's New York Times article, (April 18th) after Finnerly was indicted. Probably, when the reporters knew the names of the two suspects, they did a public records search to see if either had past criminal histories & found this assault. (The Georgetown incident happened back on Nov. 5). The victim identified these 2 before the NY Times article was released, so she did not learn their names from the paper. I guess you could assume that she was able to (w/o legal assistance) obtain the criminal histories of every lacrosse player to figure out the "best" person to ID; or you could assume that she simply ID'd the players that she believes had assaulted her, and a person who is accused of punching & shouting slurs at a gay man is also capable of assaulting & shouting racial slurs at a black woman.

[LisaL]

221. I really don't know how she did it.

But if she was shown photos of lacrosse players to pick from, it stands to reason she could have picked a lacrosse player as her "attacker".
Geez. Do you know how the line up was done? Did they just include lacrosse players?

[BrownOak]

Not the case

The local papers had the story, along with a picture, of Finnerty a couple of weeks ago. My point is that if she made her ID prior to that then his history is pretty damning. If she made it after that then it can raise some questions.

That's especially interesting because right now, FWIW, the defense is claiming to have documented evidence Finnerty wasn't at the party - there are reports of a cabbie identifying him or possibly an ATM receipt.

If he was there and the alleged victim identified him prior to the photo in the paper, then the credibility of her allegations is greatly supported.

[Marie26]

245. IDs made

I tried a quick Google search, & on April 11, DA said that there had been a positive ID of players by at least the week before, but it's not clear exactly when the ID was made. I don't know when, or if, the earlier Georgetown case was first reported, do you? I agree it's pretty damning evidence, (IMO), in any case, but I understand your point & the defense will undoubtably raise these questions. Where did you read that he wasn't at the party? It sounds like the evidence is a little sketchy (ATM, or possibly a cabbie?) Honestly, I think we should take what the defense says w/a grain of salt at this point. The second dancer has already said the defense was lying when they claimed she didn't believe a rape had occured. I guess we'll just have to wait & see what the evidence shows about Mr. Finnerty.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. The trial will be interesting

I just hope that the truth of the matter comes to light. If these young men did indeed rape the woman, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law so that others in similar situations may think twice before doing something like that. But if the woman made up the tale, she should be punished in some way as well, for her actions would be a disservice to other rape victims who will be afraid to come forward in fear that they will be disbelieved.

[supernova]

4. I partly agree with you

I do think she was raped. I don't think she's lying about that. Whether these guys did it.... that will have to come out at trial.

[wakeme2008]

7. IMHO from the pictures and no DNA or other signs of

sexual activity, I believe she has an abusive SO.

[supernova]

9. We'll have to wait and see

[Iris]

124. exactly. That's why we have trials.

And other articles have mentioned the forensic nurse says there was physical evidence of a rape.

[FredScuttle]

21. You've seen the pictures, then?

Or are you going by second- and third-hand accounts, none of which can verify the time-stamp of the "photos"?

[LostinVA]

24. Especially since the other woman said that wasn't true

Guess we'll see at the trial.

And, the photos themselves do NOT have a time stamp on them. It's a digital file. My BIL, the Freeper who does secret stuff for the government, says that info means nothing if it's on a phone camera or certain digital cameras, because the time can be manipukated... even after the fact. He's some semi-spy, I think, so I believe him on this.

[FredScuttle]

38. Great point

I wonder if the info about the "time stamp" will fall down the memory hole for all those posters who keep saying there are "definite" factors that shed doubt on the woman's story.

Willful ignorance is what I call it.

[wakeme2008]

41. here

http://www.wral.com/news/8764090/detail.html

[mzteris]

42. the other woman didn't say

that it never happened.

The defense attorney SAID she said that, but she didn't.

Here's his statement: "The alleged victim was joined at the party by a second exotic dancer, but defense attorney Bill Thomas said she "has stated point blank she does not believe this allegation."


Here's what she really said: "The woman, who authorities said in court documents was "separated" from the alleged victim before the rape occurred, told WNCN-TV in Raleigh that the other dancer was "definitely under some sort of substance" when she left the party.

"She was, um, definitely a totally different woman than she was when I first met her," she told the station.

In a segment of an MSNBC interview played Monday morning on the "Today" show, the woman said she believed her friend's allegations.

"I can't imagine that a woman would do that to herself if she didn't feel like it was worth doing it," said the woman, who was not identified. "And the only reason it would be worth doing it is if she was raped. So, I have no reason to believe she was lying." "


****

So I believe she's saying that the woman was drugged AT the party - that she drugged herself AFTER the incident. (Totally understandable, IMHO) - OR (MY THEORY) they drugged her with something before they drug her off to the bathroom.

[LostinVA]

She also said she didn't have bruises before the party

The ER would have run a toxicology report -- I'll be very interested in seeing what it says.

Of course, some on here will probably say she gave herself a roofie because her pimp said it would make the story look better.... this after he non-existent pimped had "rough sex" with her, of course.

I'm getting really tired of people comparing rough sex and rape, too, btw....

[LisaL]

71. You don't have to be raped to get pain and swelling in your

nether regions.

[progressivebydesign]

134. Really? So injuries that look like rape come from what?

Riding a bike naked?? Bludgeoning your own private parts? Are you actually trying to equate rape with perhaps 'rough sex'? Why is everyone here trying to excuse a possible rape?

[LisaL]

147. Oh get a clue.

She has swelling and pain-that does not guarantee she was raped.

[bloom]

157. You're the one who needs to get a clue.

Who are you anyway? Do you play Lacrosse?

[0007]

244. LOL! Sound more like a defensive mother.

[LostinVA]

274. SEveral posters have equated "rough sex" bruises with rape

If they really believe the two are equal, I think they need to look long and hard into themselves and examine their lives. Because The two are nowheres near the same. One is consensual, one isn't. One is exciting and stimulating, one isn't. One is criminal, one isn't. One may leave a woman a bit sore or bruised, one can rip a woman apart.

Get a clue. Educate yourself.

[Marie26]

149. A nurse can tell the difference.

The alleged victim in this case was examined by a "Sexual assault nurse examiner". SANEs are forensic nurses who are specially trained to recognize the signs of sexual assualt. The SANE in this case has said that the victim's injuries were consistent with a sexual assault, and that she also demonstrated signs of having suffered a traumatic experience. SANE's also work with law enforcement agencies & can testify at trial as expert witnesses. I expect that the SANE will testify in this trial.

[LisaL]

198. Consistent with rape does not mean there was a rape.

Get it?
It does not mean there wasn't a rape. It does not mean there was a rape.
It just means it consistent with rape. What else can it be consistent with?

[Lars39]

207. Sitting on something pointy?

The grand jury thought enough of the evidence to return with indictments.

[Marie26]

216. you tell me

If you are a forensic nurse, you are qualified to tell me what other incidents those injuries can be consistent with. If you are not, I will trust the opinion of a trained expert on this subject. The nurse cannot say whether there was a rape or not, because that requires a seperate legal determination that she is not allowed to make. She can only report her factual, medical observation that the injuries are "consistent" w/a sexual assault, and she has done that.

[bloom]

113. I think they probably drugged her also.

And this was in the NYTimes:

"In the interview, which was also shown Monday on MSNBC, the second dancer called the defense lawyers' comments about her testimony "out-and-out lies." The second dancer said that she had not seen a rape occur, but that she thought the accuser was telling the truth.

"I think that it's quite possible that something really terrible had happened to her," the second dancer said.

She said the accuser was "talkative and friendly and smiling" earlier in the night and incoherent later."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/18/sports/18cnd-duke.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5087%0A&en=d2fd8878dcaac01e&ex=1145505600&adxnnl=0&adxnnlx=1145368448-xjmYreRroypV0vUi1kKu

[LisaL]

148. Yea, they drugged her yet she fought like hell.

And then she picked her attackers from a line up.
Those must have been very in-effective drugs they had.

[bloom]

156. How fast do the drugs work?

Maybe you're an expert on the subject. :shrug:

So why couldn't they have given her something after they were in the bathroom - after she already could have identified them? And that she fought them off until she was drugged up. It's not that difficult to put together a scenario that fits what she says.

And even if she wasn't drugged - how might you feel after someone had been strangling and raping you for half an hour? You might want to pass out too.

[LisaL]

217. How would you feel if someone accused you of strangling and

raping them for half an hour, and you did not do it?

[silvermachine]

257. Meaningless...

...you assume they are innocent, just as some assume they are guilty. Your statements are utterly without merit. Meaningless and devoid of any reason or true thought.

[LostinVA]

275. Per my mom who lives in NC and just watched the news

The victim had no alcohol in her system. The rest of the toxicology report si not being made public.

Roofies?

[femmedem]

282. Could have been. But also

she could have been so traumatized that she believed them to have even more power than they had. Now I could be projecting here, admittedly. But when I was kidnapped and raped, I came to believe all sorts of things, like if I tried to leave he would shoot me. I hadn't seen a gun, mind you, but I was just certain he had one. And I also thought that because he had his gas oven door open and the oven on, he was trying to kill everyone in the house. Crazy thinking, I know, but when your experiencing something so utterly outside of anything you ever knew as reality, your mind works differently. AT least mine did.

She might have been drugged, but then again she might have felt and appeared disoriented, incoherent and drugged because of being beaten and raped.

[wakeme2008]

40. Check the site the picture WITH time stamps have been seen by

them.

http://www.wral.com/news/8764090/detail.html

[LisaL]

60. The prosecution side is supposed to show prove the woman

was raped. Can you state anything against these two defendants that makes you think they did anything at all to this woman?
WTF do you demand evidence they did not do it?
They are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
What freaking evidence is there to say they did anything at all to her?

[Iris]

125. I guess that's why there will be a trial.

That's where evidence is supposed to be presented. Not in the court of the media.

[LisaL]

151. No? There is going to be trial?

And I thought most everyone here thinks these men are guilty as sin and raped this poor stripper in a vicious manner?
Why do we even need a trial?

[Iris]

169. You're pretty much saying we don't need one because the woman is a liar.

at least in your opinion, which we're all quite aware of now.

[LisaL]

208. You finally figured out what I was saying all along.

Good for you.

[silvermachine]

258. deleted by poster

[Name removed]

259. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

270. Haven't you heard? BUSH is the decider.

not you

[silvermachine]

255. Kinda hung up on the stripper thing aren't you?

I don't think that particular profession has the market on immoral behavior cornered. Or is it just a women in general thing with you? I think most people are advocating seeing what happens when the trial commences.

[femmedem]

285. Thank you!

After I'd been a stripper for a few years, I decided to work as a chiropractic assistant instead. After a few months, the chiropractor sent me on a seminar that was all about how once a patient walks into your office, you can keep them coming back forever.

I left and went back to stripping. I figured that in a strip club, a man gives me a dollar knowing exactly what he's going to get in return. It's so honest.

Nothing against chiropractors. I know some great ones.

[Marie26]

136. Whatever happened to those photos?

Has the defense team ever released them?

[FredScuttle]

172. They've shown them to at least two media outlets

A TV station and a newspaper...but they didn't allow the reporters to take notes or make copies. Just a quick viewing, that's it.

[Marie26]

176. Thanks

If those photos were as exculpatory as they claim, they'd probably be all over the TV news by now. It makes me think that there are certain details that they don't want people to notice (maybe the time-stamp?)

[FredScuttle]

184. I think the defense is making them out to be more of a bombshell

than they are. Both news outlets' summaries of the photo series were, at best, inconclusive. The defense's claims that they show the victim as arriving in an "impaired" state and showing obvious bruises were unconfirmed. And they really ought not to push the photo they claim shows the victim "passed out" on a stairs...it could also be the picture of a woman who's just endured a brutal rape and strangulation in an exhausted state of shock.

[Marie26]

187. Right

Especially in light of the other dancer's statement that the victim was acting normal (and was uninjured) when she arrived, and one hour later, she was completely incoherant & "a totally different woman". She also believes that the victim "was definitely was under some sort of substance." She's also stated that the defense team's claims that she doubted the story were "out and out lies." Although the first responding officer thought the victim was "passed-out drunk", the forensic nurse's medical exam found no evidence that she was drunk, but did find evidence of a sexual assault.

These photos are totally consistent with what the other woman has said, if they do show the woman "passed out" and injured. You're right that these photos could end up being a liability to the defense, & I think they know that. (that's why the time stamps aren't known - were these taken before or after the alleged assault?) I don't know that we will ever see these photos, & they may never even come up at trial. I think this past week was mostly about making highly damaging claims against the victim in the hopes of influencing the jury pool.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0604180309apr18,1,4229655.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

[FredScuttle]

191. Yup

Here, in a nutshell, is the other dancer's statement: I didn't witness a rape, I didn't think she was raped when we left, but she was definitely impaired and not herself when we left. I have no reason to think she's lying about being raped

The defense and all their apologists' interpretation: She didn't witness a rape! It didn't happen!

You make an excellent point that we'll probably hear no more from the defense on these speculations...they were intended to damage the victim's credibility to potential jurors and, I believe, give her a taste of what's to come at trial.

[LostinVA]

276. And, the second woman's public account says NONE of that is true..

You know, the woman who's account the Defense has actually lied about...

[AllieB]

23. Pure speculation.

Or do you have ESP? The facts have not been revealed in the case, but if a suspect is being held on $400,000 bond for a rape case, you can probably deduce that there's some damaging evidence that the authorities aren't revealing to the public.

[Marie26]

185. The sealed indictment

also suggests that there may be more evidence here that they're trying to keep from the media.

[BrownOak]

193. That's not how it works

Once the seal is removed from the indictment it is public record. You can find it now on The Smoking Gun. The indictment was sealed so that the players wouldn't come to the station and turn themselves in. The DA wanted a perp walk and he got one this morning.

[Marie26]

232. That's true

You're right about that, I'd forgotten about how quickly the indictments are unsealed. He may have wanted a perp walk, or he may have had a valid fear that these suspects would flee his jurisdiction (NC). Since both of these suspects are from out-of-state (NY/NJ), and are college students w/o real ties to the Durham area, he might have been worried that they would leave town before they could actually be arrested. That's the reason alleged in the indictment, anyway. Thanks for the info - I'm including a link to the indictment.

Smoking Gun link - http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0418061duke1.html

[donsu]

118. think of this - a rapist can wear a condom

nt

[progressivebydesign]

131. BS.. the examiner said she had "injuries consistent with rape".

Makes me ILL to think that in this freakin' century there are STILL men that believe a woman's rape can be dismissed by the claim that she has an "abusive SO", do you want to go further say that she "likes rough sex"?? Cuz that's the neandrathal excuse that many rapists and their attorneys will use to discredit a victim. That's basically what you're saying, because she was found to have injuries consistent with a rape.

[wakeme2008]

237. The SBI did not find signs of recent sexual activity including

traces left by condoms...

[Marie26]

252. Apples & oranges

The forensic nurse did a medical examination of the victim herself, and found injuries consistent w/rape. The SBI crime lab later tested samples for DNA evidence, & was not able to recover matching DNA. This is not uncommon - a recent DOJ study found DNA evidence from an attacker is only recovered in less than 25% of sexual assault cases. A lack of SBI DNA does not disprove the nurse's findings in any way - the two findings could be entirely consistent. I couldn't find anything regarding your claim that the SBI found no other signs of sexual activity - a defense attorney said that there should be other forensic evidence besides DNA, but the SBI's office is not revealing what other forensic tests had been done.

Source -

"DNA doesn't offer magic key to case - Found in minority of assault cases"

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/427689.html

[wakeme2008]

271. The Defense read from the report NO traces of sexual activity which

included traces left behind from condoms...

What the nurse saw could have been days old. What the SBI looked at was current.

[Marie26]

272. No, that's not right

And if the defense says it, it must be true! Do you have a link to the article where they stated no traces were found? In the article I linked below, the defense lawyer only said that forensic tests should find other traces of sexual activity; the reporter followed that up and asked the SBI if other forensic tests were done to find these traces, and the SBI office refused to comment. Meaning, other tests may or may not have been done, and other traces may or may not have been found.

From the News Observer article -

"Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong has said he thinks that an assault occurred and that any assailants might have used condoms. Joseph B. Cheshire V, a Raleigh lawyer who represents one of the four team captains, said if that were true, forensic tests would have shown evidence of latex or spermicide. A spokeswoman for the State Bureau of Investigation declined to discuss what tests might have been performed on the vaginal and anal swabs collected from the accuser at the hospital."

So, the SBI does not state whether other tests were done, or what other traces were found. The defense doesn't either, they just say, in general, forensic tests should find such traces (hypothetically). Do you see the game here? The defense doesn't need to SAY that there were no other traces, they just leave the implication out there, for people like you to latch onto. If you have a link to an article in which the SBI confirms that NO forensic traces of sexual activity were found, I will certainly change my position on this. Until then, I will take the implications of the defense lawyer w/a grain of salt, especially since it is not confirmed by the SBI office itself. And, by the way, the nurse's examination was done immediately, two hours after the rape allegedly occured; the SBI report was done many days later. Not that it matters either way.

[LostinVA]

278. There IS no report saying there was no evidence of sex

The Defense just keep on spinning it that way without saying it. The poster is 100% WRONG. And just lapping up the spoonfeed Defense lies.

I think I trust the SANE over the Defense re: rape ocurring...

[LostinVA]

279. Remember: the players didn't say sex was consensual, they said there

was NO sex. So... the forensic evidence of rape puts a whole in their story, unless someone can prove that she was raped, drugged, whatever, in the small window of time between leaving the louse and the Wal-Mart guard calling 911. And, odds are, that didn't happen. If that can't be proved, the Defense starts with a disadvantage, IMO.

[LostinVA]

277. Seems like a fair amount of them are posting on here the last week

or so.... nice knowing "Progressive" men think this wait. Wait, if they think this way, they thus aren't Progressive...

[democracyindanger]

170. Now you're just making stuff up.

Yeah, and Finnerty farts fairy dust and cinnamon cookies.

[Marie26]

183. But we shouldn't

speculate or rush to conclusions, right?

[Tight_rope]

154. I partly agree with you also...

Punishment to the fullest extent of the law if your are the rapest. Or if you are a lying so-called victom. But like "supernova", I believe this lady was a victom of rape.

[0007]

10. Sounds like these two rich men are in some deep do do

with a high hanging bond over their heads.

[supernova]

11. I was suprised at the amount of the bond

Maybe they were afraid some team members would skip the country?

[0007]

13. I think you're right. The evidences must be fairly strong against

these two. Wonder if any more charges will be filed? Like accessory to the fact.

[LisaL]

58. What evidence?

The DNA does not match. These two aren't even called Adam, Brett or Matt.
The DNA found in the home belonged to the owners of the home, not these two.
What freaking evidence are you talking about?

[FredScuttle]

174. The evidence that you are so bent on ignoring

THE FREAKING MEDICAL EXAMINATION IN THE ER, for one.

The DA has other evidence introduced in the grand jury hearing that he (obviously) is not keen on sharing with the defense (and the world) just yet.

As to your post:

1) The DNA test results do not exonerate anyone
2) Those are the names the victim said the three men who assaulted her used in front of her. It is certainly possible that they used false names.

[BrownOak]

196. How do you know

Here's what you need to get an indictment from a grand jury - the medical exam stating that there were injuries consistent with sexual assault, the positive ID from the alleged victim, and.... well, actually that's all. It's the ham sandwich analogy.

So you have no way of knowing that "the DA has other evidence introduced in the grand jury hearing that he (obviously) is not keen on sharing with the defense (and the world) just yet."

[Lars39]

210. Interesting that you and lizzy both use the "ham sandwich" analogy.

[LisaL]

215. Don't tell me you never heard that grand jury would

indict a ham sandwich? It's common knowledge.

[Lars39]

226. How many in agreement on the grand jury are needed to return indictment?

[BrownOak]

238. It's a common quote

from Judge Sol Wachtler, formerly the Chief Judge of NY. Most places have done away with grand juries because they're nothing more than a rubber stamp.

I'm not sure how many you need in agreement, but there are usually 25 members on the grand jury so I doubt you would need all of them.

[Lars39]

247. Your info is wrong. Only 2 places have abolished:Connecticut and PA

C
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:ujsJi-1XgIUJ:www.udayton.edu/~grandjur/stategj/funcsgj.htm+NC+grand+jury+requirements&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a

[silvermachine]

261. No...

...just a common misconception. And one that is cited by people with no true evidence to back their opinions. Pathetic.

[0007]

248. You're coming on hot heavy and ridiculous now. $400,000

bond ain't for nothing sister.

[AllieB]

250. It's like that Stephanie Miller skit

"It's time to play 'Grasping at Straws.'" You have to say it in your best game show host voice!

[LostinVA]

280. That's a huge bond for rape

I think it's because of flight risk and the kidnapping charge. That charge is a biggie. That's some hard time if they are found guilty on that one.

[Umbram]

15. Yea

A grand jury returned sealed indictments against the two Monday. Sealed indictments often are used when authorities believe the person charged is a flight risk.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/18/duke.rape/index.html

[supernova]

16. Thanks for that

I go to cnn.com rarely.

[Umbram]

45. NP

I certainly don't blame you ;)

[northzax]

116. they're also used as bargaining chips

for plea bargains; to continue investigations without distraction, or for other reasons. why they were sealed is all speculation.

[mzteris]

43. it could be because

what seems like a lot of $$ to us is chump change to them......

[MountainLaurel]

55. Remember Alex Kelly?

Damn straight that's what they were afraid of.

[LostinVA]

70. Is that the Max Factor guy?

[Midlodemocrat]

206. No. He's the kid who was convicted of rape in Darien back in the80's

and fled to Europe...with mommy and daddy's help.

One of his victims was a student of mine. I am a little prejudiced against the scum he turned out to be.

[AllieB]

234. Here's a good link to a story about him

"Kelly was a member in good standing of a specific group --that entitled class of men who believe, and in some cases have proof,
that the rules that govern the rest of us don't apply to them." It not only sounds like the accused in the Duke case, it sounds like the Bush administration!

http://old.fairfieldweekly.com/articles/kelly.html

"The truth is rape and sexual assault happen with sickening regularity, and they are crimes perpetrated by men of position and power, who would seem to have it all. It happened in Glen Ridge, N.J., when a group of jocks sexually abused (with a baseball bat) a girl whose protests they didn't take seriously because she was mildly mentally handicapped. It happened at Tailhook, where male officers in the Navy sexually assaulted female officers during a ritual known as "the gauntlet" at an annual get-together. It has happened so often at Army bases around the country that a full-scale investigation is presently under way. And it happens often in cases that, for a number of reasons, receive no media attention."

[LostinVA]

284. That's right!

[MountainLaurel]

268. I don't think so

http://www.cnn.com/US/9706/12/kelly.guilty/

[FredScuttle]

72. and Ira Eichorn n/t

[sendero]

12. Apparently...

...it's no problem, they're going to run to the bank and get $40K each :)

[0007]

14. One is still digging

[USA_1]

20. rich guys can afford good lawyers ...

who'll suppress evidence and make their own accusations in the court room

soon enough the victim's family will start getting death threats and rumors will be planted in the newspapers of their past misdeeds (whether real or imagined) so that they will not be too stimulated to continue with the prosecution

[LostinVA]

27. I'm betting they may not bring up past crimes, etc. in court

Because if they do, it can also be brought up on the players, too. And, beating up a gay guy, plus who knows what else, doesn't look too good, either. Her past arrests weren't for anything violent like assault.

[azurnoir]

17. Despite the the players

defense team attempt to smear her n public, by releasing info that couldn't be in court if it went to trial and apparently successfully conflating semen and DNA, there was other evidence. There was (I read last week) three finger nails (victims) that were found, and towels in the bathroom where the "alleged" rape took place. Both these items apparently had DNA (finger nails) or semen(towels).It also could be a sealed indictment could indicate a wittiness(s) that are being kept under wraps.

[LostinVA]

19. My dad said NC news said this morning that "sources say"

Someone is cooperating with the DA. A player? A trainer? A girlfriend? A roommate? Who knows.

[mzteris]

44. THE THIRD GUY??

they only arrested two - but three were involved........

hmmmmmmmm

[LostinVA]

51. That's what I was wondering... turning State's evidence

[LisaL]

62. What evidence?

Turning state evidence? Keep on dreaming.

[Lars39]

69. You do realize that you are posting in a thread about

the grand jury returning indictments?

[LisaL]

81. And do you realize that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich,

if DA asked for it?

[Lars39]

86. There are still standards that must be met.

[LisaL]

137. Like what?

DA asks for an indictment. Grand jury grants it. Based on her statements alone, that should be enough to get an indictment.

[Lars39]

155. I believe the words you are looking for is 'probable cause'.

[AngryAmish]

28. The Finnerty guy's assault/gay bashing charge also won't get into court

But that has been released. (BTW, it does not seem like the stste did that, it might have been the press that dug that up.)

[LostinVA]

29. Which means any of the victim's past arrests won't make it, either

My dad is a really conservative guy, and he's foaming at the mouth about the smears in the press against the woman. He also has two daughters...

[AngryAmish]

35. It depends

This is the way it works in Illinois. Only convictions count - no charges (guilty plea = conviction). If she has a conviction in the past 10 years of a felony or any crime that imputes dishonesty (fraud, perjury and many other things) then the finding of guilt can be used to impeach her testimony. Essentially the defense can say that her testimony is not credible because she is a felon or has committed a crime in the past that says she is dishonest.

If a defendant never takes the stand (5th Amendment right against self-incrimination) then their testimony cannot be impeached. The the assault charge goes away or is a misdemeanor and if assault is not considered to be a crime of dishonesty in NC, then the assault would not come in.

(BTW, I also think it is disgusting the way this woman has been smeared already).

[LostinVA]

18. My Dad lives in NC and just emailed me

He said they are being charged with rape, kidnapping, and something else he couldn't rem,ember. That the DA is going for the max sentencing, that "leaks" are saying there's a large amount of both direct and circumstantial evidence, that someone is cooperating with the DA, and the bond was so high because of the seriousness of the charges and the risk of flight. Also, that of course there will pretty much positively be a change of venue.

I don't know what news this was on -- they live between Blowing Rock and Lenoir, so I guess Charlotte.

No editorializing on any of this, so throwing it out there as an FYI.

[FredScuttle]

22. On that point about a cooperating witness

I've believed the DA had one of the players and/or partygoers cooperating ever since that "let's kill strippers and skin them" e-mail came out. Someone close to the team handed that over.

[AllieB]

25. Who wrote that email?

Was it one of the defendants?

[FredScuttle]

30. The e-mail's author is not one of the arrested

The author's name is Ryan McFadyen:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/05/national/main1476021.shtml

[LostinVA]

31. I know... because someone gave a PRINTED copy of the email

To the DA.

[BrownOak]

199. And this shows what????

That only the lacrosse players have printers?

[femmedem]

26. Thanks for the info

and for so many of your posts on this issue.

[LostinVA]

33. Thanks!

I appreciate that... especially since it's made my BP go through the roof!

[tatertop]

166. I'll second that thanks.

[FredScuttle]

32. Hey Lost, I posted this in another thread when the indictments came down

The difference between this news and when the DNA results were made public is that those of use supporting the victim won't obnoxiously demand apologies from those who support the players and/or disbelieve the woman. This is far from over.

on edit: meant to say "woman" instead of "players"

[LostinVA]

34. You got that right on both counts, Fred!

Even my conservative Dad thinks it's about class and race and the whole jock thing... he thinks the woman was raped by people at the party that evening.

[NaturalHigh]

36. An indictment is a long way from a conviction.

Is Vegas posting odds yet? My money is on an acquittal.

[FredScuttle]

37. That's my point

I won't act like an obnoxious ass and pretend this vindicates the victim at this stage...for some of us, she has never needed vindication.

[NaturalHigh]

39. If she made up the story...

then she's not a "victim."

[femmedem]

46. She is a victim.

Even if you don't believe she was raped, you can't get around the fact that she was the victim of something. Someone, at some point, beat her up badly. This seems to be getting lost, somehow.

[AllieB]

48. She probably beat herself up to fake the injuries so she could sue

the rich white boys. We've seen this all before with Tawana Brawley! :sarcasm:

[femmedem]

49. And separated herself from the other dancer

so she could beat herself up in private.

When I was a dancer, I would never never have separated voluntarily from my partner. The way it works is this: the two of you go into a changing area, usually a bathroom. You come out together and do your show. You go back together and change. You leave together. You're never out of each other's sight. I believe that when the dancers describe how they were separated, it's going to be terrifying.

[LostinVA]

52. Especially when there are 40+ men in a house surrounding you

[LisaL]

61. The other stripper had no clue this woman was "raped".

What was she supposed to be doing for 30 minutes? This is complete witch hunt, IMO. Based on nothing else by the word of an exotic dancer/escort with a criminal past.

[FredScuttle]

75. Why absolutely....she should have marched up to the other dancer and said

"Hey, guess what! Omigod, like I just got raped, sodomized, beaten and strangled in the bathroom! What have you been up to?"

BTW, the other stripper now believes that the victim is in fact a victim...she just didn't realize it at the time.

If we're going by criminal pasts, how do you feel about one of the arrested having a charge recently of gay bashing?

[killbotfactory]

91. My wife was raped when she was 13

In a room next to her father, while he was sleeping. He didn't know until she told him months later, either.

It's not like a big beacon flashes over a rape-victims head.

[Iris]

171. yeah, not right now anyway.

If people like Lizzy have any say, all rape victims will be forced to wear the beacon just to prove they're actually victims.

[FredScuttle]

175. And you best not be working as a stripper

or adult entertainer. And if you have a criminal record? Forget it! You can't be raped! :sarcasm:

[Iris]

190. yep. Welcome to NeoCon America - it's all black and white.

You'll like it here; we even have cable.

[Iris]

127. Of course our entitled to your opinion; however, it's not likely you'll be

picked for that jury.

[FredScuttle]

50. I gotta get a plan like hers

Get drugged (allegedly) and brutally assaulted at a party, get racial taunts as I'm escaping, be subjected to a rape examination at the hospital and have my life torn apart by the world when the case is made public - all for the king's ransom of a college education (offered by Jesse Jackson). What a dope I am...I just went for the Stafford loans! :sarcasm:

[LisaL]

56. I don't get plan like this either-girl drugged so she can be

brutally assaulted. Isn't the purpose of the drug to incapacitate the woman so she does not fight? By the way, she claimed that men who raped her were Adam, Brett and Matt.
Neither of the arrested men are called Adam, Brett, or Matt.
It is my opinion that this woman made up her rape and nothing had happened to her. I do not see any evidence to convince me otherwise, none.

[Lars39]

64. There was enough evidence for a grand jury to return indictments.

[LisaL]

67. The grand jury returned indictments on every freaking case that

went before it. There was 81 open indictments. It does not prove there was any evidence at all.

[Lars39]

73. Actually, that hints that the DA knows better than to waste their time.

[BrownOak]

203. Except that it's consistent throughout the state

and consistent regardless of the DA. The threshold for getting an indictment out of a grand jury in NC, when the defense isn't allowed to present any evidence, is remarkably low.

[Lars39]

213. link?

[NaturalHigh]

76. If she was drugged...

then how did she manage to put up such a fight, which is what she claimed?

I agree that her story is BS. I wonder how long it will take her to file a civil suit.

[LisaL]

141. And how did she manage to identify any suspects?

I mean, her story sounds so bogus, excuse me if I am not buying it.

[MadHound]

165. I was drugged once, against my will

Somebody slipped some animal tranq, Rompim, into my sandwich. I remained concious, and was pissed as hell apparently. People were trying to help me, and I was fighting them off because I wanted to drop my bike off at home before going to the ER. Being a big guy, and pissed, these people decided it was better to follow my wishes than try to really tangle with me, even those I was tranqed all to hell and gone.

Good thing too, the ER nurse told that being pissed was the only thing that probably kept me alive. Adrenals kept pumping out enough that it kept my BP in the low, but still alive and functioning range.

Drugs don't automatically knock some people out. Sometimes all they do is disorient and piss the person off:shrug:

[bloom]

117. You must have missed the part where the guys

(Probably because that isn't one of the defense attorney's stories) were all calling each other fake names. And the woman noticed that someone else was using different names for them.

You might as well stop repeating that (about Adam, Brett, or Matt) as if you have a point. Because you don't.

[LisaL]

59. She had fallen and caused her injuries to herself.

There is photographic evidence of that.

[FredScuttle]

77. You just keep getting more and more ridiculous

Next, I imagine you'll say the players should sue her for assaulting their genitals with her vagina and anus.

[otohara]

79. Well Said

now I can keep out of this one

[LisaL]

83. What is the evidence that any of the player's genitals were anywhere

near her vagina and anus?

[AllieB]

84. No. There is speculative evidence of that.

The evidence revealed is from the defense team and right-wing media. We are not privy to the evidence from the other side. And as I said before, I'm not going to argue with you because you have some kind of axe to grind over this whole case. Maybe we should start a thread about Terri Schiavo. That topic is a lot less controversial.

[Name removed]

262. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

251. Yes! And the DA went into the kitchen and got a ham sandwich

and took it to the Grand Jury and the Grand Jury said, "that's good enough for me"

[FredScuttle]

47. She didn't make up the story

The defense's efforts to smear her notwithstanding, she was evaluated by medical professionals and, in their opinion, she was raped. The DA investigated and he believes she was raped. That's enough for me.

[LostinVA]

53. Me too -- I have great respect for ER personnel

They are, unfortunately, rape experts. They see so many sexual assaults each year.

[NaturalHigh]

54. Her injuries were "consistent with rape."

Sorry, that doesn't mean she was raped. Since there was no DNA present and no traces of latex or spermicide, I don't think that it has been proved that she was raped.

[LisaL]

57. Her nether regions were swollen and painful.

I imagine there could be numerous other reasons for her to have swollen and painful nether regions.

[NaturalHigh]

63. I imagine we're going to hear a lot about...

how they came to be swollen and painful in the months to come. I know that a lot of people here are pissed that the defense would dare to dispute this woman's claim of rape, but you can bet that the "hardball" has just begun.

[LisaL]

65. With her being an escort and doing one on one parties,

why would anyone think those regions could be swollen and painful due to anything else other than rape? How dare these men suggest anything of the sort!

[NaturalHigh]

66. One-on-one parties...

Gee, I wonder what those consisted of?

[LisaL]

68. Anyone can guess.

You don't have to guess hard.

[FredScuttle]

88. So I ask you again

Do you believe that a sex worker is incapable of being raped?

[LisaL]

130. No, I believe a sex worker can be raped.

But I see no evidence whatsoever that this one was.

[Lars39]

133. You haven't been privy to all the evidence.

None of us has.

[LisaL]

139. No, I haven't. So, I am presuming the players innocent.

I always thought it was supposed to work that way. Am I wrong?
Should I presume them guilty without any evidence?

[Lars39]

158. Didn't realize that you cared about evidence.

[LisaL]

212. Well, now you do.

Good for you.

[progressivebydesign]

140. Sorry. rape injuries are more than "swollen and painful'

Shall we get graphic?? There is internal bruising, there are tears, there is internal bleeding... care to explain that away?

[LisaL]

142. DA Nifong described her injuries as "swollen and painful".

Why don't you ask him why he believes she was raped?

[donsu]

119. could you list these reasons please

being a woman I'm curious about what would make swelling all on its own?

[LisaL]

132. You haven't a clue?

Seriously?

[Iris]

135. you mean her vagina and cervix?

Can you cut the nether regions crap. My vagina is right here between my legs and it leads up to the very center of my body. It's not in some far off location where I might for a moment not realize what is going on with it.

[LisaL]

143. LOL. What gives you the right to tell me how to describe

her nether regions?
If I want to describe her vagina and cervix as nether regions, then I will describe them as nether regions. I don't need your lessons on anatomy, or anything else, for that matter.

[Lars39]

162. It's just easier, isn't it?

Who's ever heard of the innocuous Victorian "nether regions" having cuts or tears?

[Iris]

168. Exactly my point.

Or, worse, it could even be a way to say that the woman involved has unspeakable parts that deserve to be abused.

[progressivebydesign]

138. WHY do you keep pushing that?? are you friends with the players?

Cuz I don't understand WHY you keep trying to push off the idea that the rape injuries were from something else.. Pray tell, what exactly could cause damage that LOOKS like rape to a medical PROFESSIONAL???

[LisaL]

144. I am sure you will hear it all from the defense.

As for me, no, I don't know any players.
I just can't stand to see justice system being abused the way it appears to be abused in this case.

[Lars39]

167. poor lizzy. Damn shame the grand jury didn't share their info with you.

[LisaL]

204. LOL.

They indicted everyone. The grand jury doesn't need much of anything to indict. Thus, the saying-grand jury would indict a ham sandwich.

[LostinVA]

286. Why, didn't you know that consensual "rough sex" causes

injuries just like rape? What? You didn't know that? How unprogressive of you!!!

:sarcasm:

[patcox2]

78. Why would anyone "support" anyone on either side?

I ponder this strange motivation people have to take sides and "support" or oppose one side or the other.

I guess thats what happens when you turn crime into entertainment, as happened with OJ. Its like "american idol."

Its a frigging crime. People should back off and watch instead of rushing to pre-judge either way.

[LisaL]

80. But we have been entertained by crimes for years.

Hundreds of years. You want it to stop now? Not going to happen.

[FredScuttle]

87. It is a crime

and my motivation for posting on these threads is answer those posters who want to spread the meme that this is an "alleged" rape or that we should doubt the victim's story because she's a sex worker. Justice will be served, but this victim needs support right now.

[Centered]

104. Thank you for the update

I really appreciate the information you are putting forth in a neutral manner

someone will have to convey my thanks though since you ignored me :(

[ShortnFiery]

74. Yeah! And ... and ... you know what?

And due to this INSANE hype for a local, or at most a state story ----> RUMSFELD is getting cover because the MSM is all over this DISTRACTION. :puke:

Hell, it even drowned out *'s statements in the Rose Garden today. :puke:

Congratulations, Karl rove would be so proud of such inane but "sexy" obsessions. :puke:

[LostinVA]

82. How dare you call this "sexy"??? Or inane?

Rape isn't sexy. This is a story with national interest: it involves class, race, violence against women, etc. It resonates with the majority of Americans, because all of these factors touch and affect their lives.

Blame the MSM for dwelling on this, not us. We are allowed to "obsess" other stories that don't include Bush or Rumsfeld.

If you don't want to read about it, go to another thread.

on edit: the use of the quotation marks around sexy doesn't excuse your use of the word in regards to rape.

[ShortnFiery]

89. Oh please, this is conjecture ...

This story is attracting attention because of the SEX angle ... ergo the story is sexy.

Any other self-righteous reasons you claim are "all important" over NATIONAL or LOCAL (your own) government affairs is just wishful thinking.

I'm guilty of getting sucked into such stuff but as I get older I'm made all the more aware of how the * Administration and the Corporate MSM is using this as yet another "shiny object" to distract the Sheeple's attention away from say NUCLEAR WAR.

I could care less about this, the missing white girl, and all the other "shiny object" stories that take the spotlight off of Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld is all kinds of evil for our military. That's what we should be all focusing on. But yeah, this is a story that is getting attention for SEX! No doubt. :puke:

[FredScuttle]

90. You do know, don't you, that rape is a crime of violence, not sex?

I don't know anyone who would call a rape story "sexy" or say it has a "sex" angle.

Rape has been around for milleniums....it was here long before the * administration was here and it'll be here long after.

If you have such a hard-on for Rumsfeld, then post a thread about him. Otherwise, why jerk off in this thread?

[ShortnFiery]

93. Yes, I'm talking the "media blitz" and you are talking strictly

defense. I'm not taking sides here - both sides have NOT presented anything REAL!

This is a place where EVERYONE with "a little knowledge" on other side can project their feelings and opinions into the argument.

Again, KKKarl Rove thanks you for your patriotism ... Good Inquiring Mind American Sheeple! - Yes, do stay dumbed down on hysterical topics with little evidence. Oh yes, better yet to fight among yourselves.

We in the Ruling Class love you that way: Obsessed on the inane, Hyped-up and Politically Ignorant. :-)

[FredScuttle]

97. What color is the sky in your world?

Not everything is a Karl Rove plot, you know. You sound like you're ready to get on the rooftop with your pigeons and sign a contract with Bialystock and Bloom for a new musical gay romp at Berchtesgaden:

[ShortnFiery]

99. Go ahead and obsess as * and Rove continue to defend

Rumsfeld. Yes you know what you like.

No, Karl Rove is a real sweet guy ... so is ole' Melhman. :puke:

[FredScuttle]

102. Do the words "mutually exclusive" mean anything to you?

Or do you have a theory on how Karl Rove slipped the roofie into the dancer's drink and orchestrated the bathroom attack like Cecil B. Demille?

[ShortnFiery]

103. Well at least my FAV pubs are Foreign Affairs and STRATFOR ...

not Private Detective conjecture. :P

[Thtwudbeme]

96. Obviously you do care very much

otherwise you wouldn't be on this thread using the inappropriate word "sexy" in big screaming letters.

[ShortnFiery]

98. I only care that this is a really "sexy" media issue that's distracting

from our focus on preventing NUCLEAR WAR. But whatever ;)

[superconnected]

85. Oh look, all they have to do is wait till the bank opens to get out of

jail.

:puke:

[Kailassa]

92. As one of many who have been raped and not believed,

I really appreciate the effort some are going to here to post the news regarding this "incident" from a compassionate pint of view. With such concerted intimidation in these threads toward anyone showing a caring attitude, I admire the courage of those who stand up to the spewing hatred here.

[LostinVA]

94. Very well put

It is hatred....

I've had many friends, some relatives, and a studentraped.... I am so sorry for what happened to you, and what is being done to you on these threads.

[Kailassa]

114. Thanks, I'm concerned because this stuff takes all our rights away.

Too many men are brought up with the attitude of women being fair game for rape. The attitudes some people are showing here give these sort of guys permission to keep raping, because they assume from the start the woman must be at fault. At best, this makes them accessories before the fact to future rapes which will occur.

I wonder how many woman living in cities in Australia or America have not learnt to curtail their activities in a way men do not have to, because of fear of rape. Avoiding situations because they are unsafe becomes so ingrained that we no longer remember we are doing it, and don't realize the little ways in which "prudence" has altered our lives.

The trouble is, no amount of care can ever keep a woman safe in the present social climate. Girls and women are predominantly being raped by people they know, not strangers but people they work with, people they love, people they depend on. And this is happening in their own homes and workplaces just as much as at parties, dances and private stripper performances.

The last time I read of a 90 year old woman being raped in her own home it was accompanied by the implication that it was her own fault for having got too senile to forget to lock her doors. There were rapes recently in a Melbourne old folks home, and these continued after the daughter of one of the old ladies being raped reported them. When finally she managed to get the matter investigated it was too late, her bed-ridden mother had died, and her death seemed to be a result of the stress caused by being continually raped. When John Howard, our prime minister, finally spoke publicly about it, one got the impression he was pissed off at the victims for causing trouble for his government.

It's great fun for men to keep women repressed in this way. They can continually boost their immature egos by having someone beneath them in the pecking order, who they can freely abuse whenever they need to vent their own deep-seated angers. Not all men, I know many good ones too, and reading posts from caring men here warms my heart. But for the ones who get off on having power over someone, this situation has a lot of advantages for them. And I know women IRL too who seem to enjoy knowing that other women are being raped. There seem to be nearly as many women who hate women as there are men who hate women.

This rant is not aimed at you, LostinVA, you are obviously aware of the situation already. But possibly someone will learn something from reading it.

As I already know what replies to expect, I won't be looking at this thread again. To the people who feel inclined to throw punches into the aether over what I've said, I hope you are granted whatever experiences you need in order to learn to understand and care about what is going on in this world.

[ShortnFiery]

152. Young men are raped "in the big house" across this Country every day ...

Very few people stand up for them either. :(

This isn't just a woman thing.

If anything - It's about POWER.

[AllieB]

160. Yes, it is about power, which is why you're 'sexy' comment

is completely inappropriate.

Men account for about 10% of the total rape victims in this country, which is terrible, I agree.

[ShortnFiery]

164. You need to read slower ... I was referring to the "media blitz"

You want to CONTINUE to play a role of the victim, be my guest. However, every woman in my immediate family can physically shut-down an attack on the spot. Take martial arts or self defense? If you are attacked, then at least you stand a fighting chance of "leveling your attacker."

I humbly suggest that we first, as women do something for OUR PERSON because society is NOT going to change it's mores overnight.

Yes THE MEDIA considers this story *SEXY*. That's a fact.

If you want to change society's attitudes about women, learn self defense and walk proud, NOT in fear. I refuse this BS of thinking ANY man can take me. If you *hit hard* and run like hell, any woman can handle herself without having to have to be in the company of men.

Yes, there are exceptions when there are many attackers or someone gets a jump on you. But YOU will not change society overnight. These "perceptions" are hardwired into many ... it will take time.

[AllieB]

177. I never play the victim, but you're blaming the victim

in your post. I'm 5'10", young, and very strong, despite having severe Lyme disease, but I don't kid myself that a man my height can easily overpower me. Your advice doesn't apply to the elderly women that are raped, and those that can't afford 'martial arts' lessons. Again, you're blaming the victim for society's ills.

Yes, the media is sensationalizing this, and does sensationalize these kinds of incidents. You could have been a little more diplomatic in your choice of language, that's all.

[ShortnFiery]

181. Then I humbly suggest that you check out a quality ...

Martial Arts School.

Martial Arts is the great equalizer.

No, if you have had the proper self-defense mixed with a selected form of Martial Arts training, most ANY MAN could not get into a position of overpowering you! That's the point!

And the elderly? Well a shotgun is a great equalizer. ;)

No, I'm not diplomatic because society's mores change as slowly as the tectonic plates. The sooner women choose to empower themselves, the better society is.

Remember it's not woman vs. men, it's the weak vs. the strong. That's why I would challenge that a significantly higher percentage than 10 of men are the victims of rape in prison. Men will NOT report such incidents.

We must be proactive and teach our daughters accordingly. I honestly have no patience for a victim mentality - stay strong - against all odds, we can protect our own person. It doesn't take power but intelligence and skill to escape from most attackers.

[AllieB]

189. You still don't get it

I took judo for years. I know all about using the other person's strength against them. This, however, does not work when there's more than one attacker, or if the person is considerably larger than you. Or if they have a firearm.

Again, you're blaming the victims for the faults of society.

[ShortnFiery]

192. You're throwing up roadblocks ...

This discussion is becoming circular.

I don't blame the victim but, in essence, I'm also not going to RUMINATE with them ad infinitum. I will instead help get people energized to counter this cruel world.

If counteraction makes me seem cold, it's not the whole story, but such is your view.

Again it's not men vs women, but strong vs weak ... and the media considers this issue SEXY! :P

Have a good one. :hi:

[donsu]

194. male violence is ok with you? women should train to fight them off?

how about men controlling themselves. you must think that's an impossibility? you think men can't be civilized?

[ShortnFiery]

195. Go back and read my posts again please - Strong vs. Weak Not ok. n/t

[AllieB]

197. Thank you for putting it more succintly than me

:-)

[ShortnFiery]

205. You're both welcome and albeit you don't agree my position ...

it has been fully explained.

We approach this issue from different life experiences and different views of how women should choose to empower themselves as they function within society.

We differ. Nothing more - no victim blaming - I just refuse to be one regardless of the cards life has dealt me. If that makes me an cold hearted a**hole in your view, that's cool. But I will not apologize for presenting a genuine perspective.

Have a good day. :-)

[AllieB]

220. Many women empower themselves, but they are still raped

so in essence, you are blaming the victim. I have a very sunny view of life, but I'm also a realist. By telling women to empower themselves, you are saying it's OK for men not to control their impulses.

[ShortnFiery]

231. You still pound ... ok think what you wish

I noted exceptions but you must have your way.

No, I explained that (TWICE) society is not going to change quickly and *in the mean time* we must empower ourselves.

How about you go back and read CLOSELY my posts before bringing up issues that I've previously addressed?

[Kailassa]

239. There are always people who will tell others what they "should" do.

Believing you know better than another person does what they should be doing in their situation indicates the most amazing conceit.

And to imply that every woman has the opportunity to refuse to be a victim is bad taste at best, and purposefully inflamatory at worst, when it is in a thread about a girl being possibly drugged and raped by 3 strong athletes.

As HL Menken said: "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

[ShortnFiery]

240. I never said that I knew better than anybody else ...

However, I'm being denied my thoughts and feelings because there's a need to obsess "in the details."

Ok, no judgements here - forget I interjected anything ... focus on details, every single slight and injustice ... <sigh>

In the mean time, I'll enjoy my life, free of unreasonable fear.

Wishes for Peace! ;)

[entanglement]

121. I've stopped posting in these threads, dear LostinVA

The cruelty and hatred of some "liberals" is simply shocking and I can't reply to some of these people without losing my temper.

:hug: to you and :mad: at the nasties

[Kailassa]

159. Never assume that a person is a liberal

just because they post on this board.

Think like a detective, who benefits if we get disillusioned with other "liberals" and are bullied out of posting here?

Certainly no real liberal is going to want that. One person running 2 or 3 accounts can do a lot of damage if we let them, but very little if we stand together.

:grouphug:

[AllieB]

224. Bingo!

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[LostinVA]

287. Thank you -- I may have to have a few mojitos myself tonight!

[ShortnFiery]

100. This is what I'm saying that is so over the top ...

We are all inserting our "personal experiences" into this situation.

No good can come of the continued rumination of this topic. Definitely not any inkling of the truth?

Carry on ... as I know you will. :hi:

[FredScuttle]

101. Translation: All you rape victims should shut up

You truly are a piece of work, my friend. What lucky gal nabbed you?

[LostinVA]

105. Some of these posts are mind blowing

Just ahead and write whatever the hell you want in reply -- I honestly don't care. Certain posters are no longer worth my spleen. You're one of them. Hope posting this stuff makes you feel like a big boy. Go buy a sports car, instead.

[FredScuttle]

120. You were responding to the other poster, right?

Because, I've got the sports car already, lol.

[femmedem]

126. Hey LostinVA--you sent this reply to Fred. Mistake?

I'm thinking you meant this for the poster before Fred. I hope you didn't accidentally put Fred on your ignore list.:hi:

[LostinVA]

273. No! I answered the wrong post!

[ShortnFiery]

106. I'm a woman and I've been attacked ... so stick a sock in it ...

And no, I don't wish to talk of it. Perhaps that's why I have extensive martial arts and self defense training - so I don't have to be afraid.

Plus, my idea of therapy sure as shit doesn't have anything to do with "sharing very private" experiences on a message board.

I do not judge those who "feel a need" but it is worrisome and disconcerting to many, i.e., I am not alone with this sentiment.

To each his/her own. Go forth and conquer ... more personal antidotes and conjecture for we know the FACTS are few and far between presentations for *either* side. :-)

On edit: Hell! You're so emotionally wrapped up in this that you ASS-U-MEd that I was a man. Whoa! Time for everyone to take a deep breath? :hi:

[FredScuttle]

109. Apologies for my assumption

I had no idea a woman would be critical of other women sharing their rape experiences to enlighten the group on what a victim goes through. Well, you learn something every day.

Apologies again and I'll respect your privacy and pry no further.

[ShortnFiery]

110. Accepted. And yes, I'll give you - in this case, to each her own. eom

[progressivebydesign]

145. Thanks Kailassa. I speak from experience as I defend the alleged victim.

I have my own experiences with, coincidentally, athletes. I did nothing wrong in either case, I was on a date. I was not drunk, nor a sex worker. I did not lead anyone on, I did not make up my injuries. (or any of the ways people here are trying to excuse the alleged attack). It was totally out of the blue. I've known so many women who have had the same experience at the hands of the over-testosteroned, aggressive men like that. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, for sure. BUT.. I am livid at the SUPPOSED progressives on this site that are acting like reactionary, right wing, women-hating, pigs.... by attacking the victim. THIS is why women do NOT come forward!!

[goclark]

163. Count me in on the side of compassion

Thank you for expressing your thoughts.

This is an extremely sensitive issue.

I am naive in believing that on a PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL Board, compassion and the ability to see both sides of the issue, would be the theme in 99% of the threads.


It's the age old story, the hot buttons in our society are still bringing us down instead of raising us up ~

Black vs. White

Rich vs. Poor

Powerful vs. Powerless

Mansions vs. Homeless

New Arrivals vs. Those that took Land from the Indians

Christians vs. Those that Pretend to Love the Lord etc. etc.

PEACE AND COMPASSION

[Kailassa]

173. I'm always glad to read your posts on any issue, goclark,

as you always write with warmth and perspicacity.

Men like you and FredScuttle who speak on subjects like this are helping make it easier for women to learn to trust again.

and add to your list,
Liberals vs those who pretend to be liberals. ;-)

[FredScuttle]

182. Thanks for the kind words

but me and the other men on this board who support the victim don't deserve any thanks...we should be expected to stand with a victim, just as we are proud to stand with the victims of crime in this forum.

[goclark]

186. OK , you made my day!

Lady goclark :) will be telling everyone I meet today that I "write with warmth and perspicacity!"

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=perspicacity

I just ran into the kitchen to tell my 80+ Mom that Kaliassa just gave me a beautiful compliment!

She said to let you know that she agrees! :bounce:

[Kailassa]

214. Sorry, *blush*, I should have checked your info. ;-)

:grouphug: s to both you and your no doubt wonderful mother.

[superconnected]

95. another article on this -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse

The alleged victim, a 27-year-old black woman and mother of two children, told police she was attacked March 13 by three white men in a bathroom at a party held by the lacrosse team.

The racially charged allegations have led to near daily protest rallies. The school canceled the highly ranked team's season and accepted the resignation of coach Mike Pressler after the release of a vulgar and graphic e-mail that was sent by a team member shortly after the alleged assault.

Defense attorneys have urged Nifong to drop the case, saying DNA tests failed to connect any of the 46 team members tested to the alleged victim.

But Nifong has argued that he has enough evidence to proceed. He has said 75 percent to 80 percent of rape prosecutions lack DNA evidence. According to court records, a medical examination of the woman found injuries consistent with rape.

...

The article goes on to say that the Lacrosse team has a lot of campus violations and the school was becoming worried by the sheer amount.

....
"School officials said Monday that the lacrosse coach was warned last year that his players had too many violations of the campus judicial code and he needed to "get them in line."
"

"Sue Wasiolek, Duke's dean of students and assistant vice president for student affairs, said the review showed the lacrosse team had a "disproportionate" number of violations of the campus judicial code. None was particularly serious, but administrators were concerned about the cumulative record and the fact that some players had several violations, she said. "

[superconnected]

107. Stepping back - looking at Game Theory - if these two are guilty

"A very famous game is the Prisoner's Dilemma game. In this game the two players are partners in a crime who have been captured by the police. Each suspect is placed in a separate cell, and offered the opportunity to confess to the crime. The game can be represented by the following matrix of payoffs"


-------------not confess confess
not confess --- 5,5 ____ 0,10
confess ------- 10,0 ___ 1,1



Note that higher numbers are better (more utility). If neither suspect confesses, they go free, and split the proceeds of their crime which we represent by 5 units of utility for each suspect. However, if one prisoner confesses and the other does not, the prisoner who confesses testifies against the other in exchange for going free and gets the entire 10 units of utility, while the prisoner who did not confess goes to prison and gets nothing. If both prisoners confess, then both are given a reduced term, but both are convicted, which we represent by giving each 1 unit of utility: better than having the other prisoner confess, but not so good as going free

A second feature of this game, is that it is self-evident how an intelligent individual should behave. No matter what a suspect believes his partner is going to do, is is always best to confess. If the partner in the other cell is not confessing, it is possible to get 10 instead of 5. If the partner in the other cell is confessing, it is possible to get 1 instead of 0. Yet the pursuit of individually sensible behavior results in each player getting only 1 unit of utility, much less than the 5 units each that they would get if neither confessed. This conflict between the pursuit of individual goals and the common good is at the heart of many game theoretic problems.

http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/whatis.htm
------------

Just another look at this situation from a mathmatics perspective. If neither are guilty then they should not have to worry about the other ratting. Of course guilt won't be exonerated by this - both could have a pre-agreement - after all they turned themselves in.

[zann725]

108. "Waiting 'til the banks open." Quick, get those boys out before an inmate

forces sex on them.

Do whatever one pleases, then "wait'til the bank opens."

Ironically, isn't the "Devil" the Duke Mascot?

[onenote]

111. curious: what do you have against granting accused bail?

And do you take this position generally, or only when Duke lacrosse players are involved?

onenote

[superconnected]

112. I think most people here understand that the "rich" lacross players

can make the 400k bail or 10% of that, but the average person probably can't.

Because of that it establishes that the rich are going to spend less time in jail than the middle class or the poor.

There's nothing wrong with bail itself, but it does speak for the way a wealthy person and a poor person are not "equal" in their jail experience. I think it shows a problem in the system. If you are poor, you are punnished more by having to remain in jail until your trial.

[LisaL]

128. I guess it's lucky then she didn't accuse poor ones.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superconnected]

161. What's your point?

[LisaL]

202. My point is-these players are lucky they have money because

they can afford to defend themselves.

[brentspeak]

115. Really sickening how the media is playing up the race & income angle

Matters of law and justice are supposed to be blind in every way, without regard to the race, color, creed, and socio-economic background of both accuser and accused.

[FredScuttle]

122. Yes - justice is supposed to be blind

but apparently, it has a tollbooth.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kailassa]

178. I read the article about Michele Malkin, but I'm still puzzled.

What connection does she have to anything in this thread?

She certainly did not write the article the OP quotes from.

[AllieB]

179. Yes we know that, but why are you still spamming us

with the same website that you said pointed to Plame not being covert?

[Jersey Devil]

180. Is it possible the accuser was drugged or took drugs?

I just read this newspaper account of what the 2nd dancer had to say about the incident and it seems to me that she (the accuser) may have been slipped a "Mickey" at the party if you read what the other dancer said about her condition coming to and leaving the party:

Until Sunday night, the only other witness, the second woman hired to dance at the party, had remained silent. In television interviews, she told her story.

The woman's attorney, Mark Simeon of Durham, declined Monday to make her available for an interview. She spoke on the MSNBC cable news network, which did not identify her and showed her in silhouette. Simeon confirmed that it was his client on MSNBC.

The woman told MSNBC that she did not witness a rape and does not know whether one occurred.

-snip-

The accuser did not appear to be on drugs or to have been drinking when she arrived, the second dancer said. She was "absolutely fine and in control of herself."

When the accuser left, less than an hour after she arrived, she was incoherent and stumbling, the second dancer said.

"She couldn't really walk on her own," the woman said. "She really couldn't get her thoughts together enough to answer any questions. ... She was a different person than I met at the beginning."

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/429871.html

[LisaL]

200. Anything is possible. Including her making the whole thing up.

[supernova]

209. Which there is nothing to suggest that she did

Again, I question your motives.

[LisaL]

211. Is there anything to suggest she did not?

Question my motives all you want. What motives can I possibly have?
Except for wanting justice to be done in a proper way.

[Beaverhausen]

218. Evidence? Lots of evidence.

Why are you ignoring the evidence? You can post all day long that there isn't any but you are wrong. If there wasn't any do you really think the DA would even bother prosecuting the case?

[LisaL]

225. Nice of you to ask. Yes, I think this DA is hell bend to prosecute

this case because he wants to be elected. Thus it answer you question clearly enough?

[Beaverhausen]

229. Why would be want to prosecute if he has no evidence? Who would...

...vote for him if he showed himself to be incompetent? I can't wait for the answer to this one.

:popcorn:

[AllieB]

241. Maybe because he's a DemocRAT!

:sarcasm:

they're always going after them rich folk!

[supernova]

233. Not enough of a reason

Try again.

[Lars39]

236. Also, what DA is going to stick his neck out

for what could be a *very* expensive trial unless he had his ducks in a row?

[supernova]

219. Yep, the medical evidence

Where's your medical degree lizzy? Where and in what medical discipline did you do your residency?

I really want to know why you are so eager to disbelieve her. Your tone on this thread is foul to the point it strains credibility.

It's entirely possible that both things are true. That she was attacked and maybe none of the tested players did it. Maybe the two who turned themselves in this morning did it. That's why we have a trial. That's why the complainant deserves her day in court.

You don't want justice, you want to lynch this woman in public. I'm surprised you haven't scoured the net to find her name and telephone number.

edit: spelling

[LisaL]

222. Oh, pardon me.

What is your medical degree?

[Beaverhausen]

227. The doctor and forensic nurse who examined her have degrees

and they confirm that she was raped. But of course you will deny this and say it's cause she went horseback riding that day or something equally idiotic. :crazy:

[supernova]

228. Thank you Beaverhausen

Evidently lizzy thinks she's above all that scientific stuff.

[supernova]

230. I'm still waiting for an answer

What makes you qualified to second guess the medical evidence?

[FredScuttle]

253. You'll be waiting a long time

Lizzy thinks medical evidence is all speculative

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

288. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaverhausen]

256. Wait! Didn't you hear? The defense "says" the boys have an alibi

So by all means, lets drop the case altogether. If the defense says something then it must be true!!!

:sarcasm:

[supernova]

260. By all means,

lets believe anything those sweet young boys want to tell us and give the complanant the Grand Inquisition. :grr:

[FredScuttle]

263. If the defense says it

then some of these posters take as the gospel truth. At least the defense isn't calling a press conference demanding the rape victim to recant and apologize to her rapists like they were earlier in the week.

[Beaverhausen]

264. exactly. Why don't posters realize the defense is trying to taint the jury

...pool by spreading this kind of information as proven fact?

[Kailassa]

266. So could it help the lacrosse players defense

if this misinformation is spread all over the net?

I hope it never occurs to the defense or to players wealthy families to use forums like this to spread misinformation. They could think of paying people to post lies and bully and ridicule people who speak up for the victim. We might see all sorts of lies and nastiness if that were to happen.

[Marie26]

267. God forbid. nt

[LostinVA]

289. My Mom said the NC coverage is overwhelmingly sane and factual

I don't think his tactics will work, imo.

[tatertop]

265. If they are convicted will you continue to find them innocent?

[LostinVA]

290. She still thinks Terry SChiavo wasn't PVS, regardless of the autopsy

So... yes!

[Beaverhausen]

223. I was thinking that too

It is possible they gave her the "date rape" drug or something.

[Jersey Devil]

242. It almost can't be booze

Not if everything happened in less than an hour as the other dancer said, although I do remember one party back in college where some wiseass med student was spiking drinks with pure alcohol. I said "Mickey", not being able to think of the name of the "date rape" drug you are also thinking of. It makes sense. She finishes dancing, was thirsty, someone give her a drink, she chugs it down and almost immediately becomes "drunk" looking.

The other factor in this case that no one is talking about is that some of the other players there may have been cooperating with the DA all along, despite the fact that everyone is lumping them together as refusing to talk. If they were cooperating they certainly would not be announcing it to the press or their fellow students. The DA will have to have that kind of evidence, or have one of the Defendants flip, in order to get a conviction, plus some pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

[LostinVA]

291. My Mom said NC news said today she had no alcohol in her system

[AllieB]

243. Those drugs are very common in college

I know a woman who was slipped one, and thankfully, nothing happened to her. That could account for the victim acting 'drunk', because a drug like rufanol can put you in a stupor.

[Jersey Devil]

246. Common? Gee, I hope not

Sometimes I think it's much better for girls to go to schools that are popular in their home towns so that they know other people who will kind of look out for them when they are at school. I know my daughter who was 2 years behind my son in college (both went to Rutgers) felt much more at ease meeting people in school because her older brother kept an eye out for her and warned her off certain parties and functions.

[AllieB]

249. Unfortunately, I heard of many incidents where they were used

Isn't it sad that you have to worry about your daughter at college in this day and age? I went to college in the '90s, and I think it's much worse now.

[LostinVA]

292. No, it is....

[Catherine Vincent]

235. For the jocks it's innocent until proven guilty and for the girl it's

victim until proven otherwise.

[Name removed]

269. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueInPhilly]

281. Instead of "nether region"

as was pointed out, it sounds so "victorian" - can we use HOOHA instead?

[supernova]

283. LOL

[Moderator]

293. Lock

Please re-read the rules about civility.
Here is a snip:

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