Reopen probe of Flight 587 (AA Jet Lost Tail NYC Nov 2001)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/409864p-346702c.html

Recent mishaps involving Airbus aircraft have prompted a group of airline pilots to request that federal aviation investigators reopen a probe into the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 five years ago.

Several New York-based American Airlines pilots said they are convinced that uncommanded rudder movements - an occurrence they say happens with some A300 aircraft by manufacturer Airbus, is partly to blame for the November 2001 crash over the Rockaways.

"We're just trying to renew the interest and concerns about these particular model aircraft," said Capt. Bob Tamburini, a member of the Allied Pilots Association, the American Airlines pilots union. "We are requesting that the National Transportation Safety Board reopen its investigation based on the information that came out as of late."

Last month, a Canadian Air Transat A310, with similar tail designs as the A300, had to return to a Cuban airport after much of its rudder came apart, Tamburini said.

In the crash of Flight 587, the plane's tail snapped off during takeoff from JFKAirport, and the jet slammed into Belle Harbor, killing all 260 passengers and crew and five people on the ground. The plane had been bound for Santo Domingo.

[Nashyra]

1. Coming on the heels of 911

it was devasting to the New York based crews of American Airlines and then they tried to blame the co-pilot. My husband is a Capt on the Airbus out of JFK, I worry about him flying that aircraft all the time. In fact he flew the aircraft on that Saturday before it crashed on Monday. Way to close to home.

[acmejack]

3. Whoa, that gave me chills.

I can only imagine what it had to do to you.

[cpamomfromtexas]

13. My husband was one of the investigators from the pilot union

He said the government officials are so gunning for those high-priced jobs from airbus, that they refused to do real investigating and really wanted to cover up.

Those government people want to blame the pilots for anything they aren't smart enough to figure out. Oh and by the way, they think they are all overpaid anyway so who gives a crap.

COVER UP, Case closed.

[flyarm]

30. it was also believed there were fisures in the tail that could only be

detected by exraying the tails..which was cost prohibitive as far as American was concerned..many pilots walked off demanding the xray of the tails..on the A300...

i was a flt attend for AA then..i am retired now..that about did it for me!
i watched the Ntsb lying up their assholes..and Pataki covering the lies..and i said..time to take early retirement!


the lies of this government about 9/11 and then the Rockaway crash lies..i said time to retire the wings..

all of it was coverup!

oh i was based in NY...i had had enough!


fly

[n2doc]

33. Amazing how everyone is overpaid except the executives

It has always pissed me off when I hear how someone in a skilled position is "overpaid". Frankly I WANT my pilots paid well, so there is an incentive for the most talented folks to go into that field. One of the most disturbing things I have read in the travel field is how pilots for the small regional airlines get paid near poverty wages. I guess the airlines figure people will do the job because they love to fly.

Welcome to America's future, a bimodal distribution of wages 99.9% at $5/hour, 0.1% at $10,000/hr....

[cpamomfromtexas]

34. Our family is encouraging the kids to NOT BE PILOTS

That "love to fly" stuff is just about over. My husband has had it and so have other family members, everyone is finding other things to do!

[lonestarnot]

2. ewwww not ever gettin' on one of these!

[leveymg]

4. The Boeing 737 has had similar rudder problems resulting in downed

aircraft. It's not unique to A-300s.

[regnaD kciN]

8. While the 737 has had some problems...

...pilots I've talked to say the Airbus' rudder pedal mechanism is very odd -- there's practically no detent at neutral position, so it's all-too-easy, when returning to neutral, to go straight past it and all the way over to the other side.

[leveymg]

11. "Some problems"!!!???

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V120/N42/faa.42w.html
FAA Will Order Redesign of Boeing 737 Rudder Blamed in Two Crashes
By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar
LOS ANGELES TIMES -- WASHINGTON

The Federal Aviation Administration announced Thursday that it will order a redesign of vital controls on the world’s workhorse airliner -- the Boeing 737 -- to prevent an elusive failure that can cause a catastrophic crash.

The action came after an FAA-appointed expert panel concluded that previous fixes of the plane’s rudder ordered by the agency had not addressed more than a dozen possible ways in which it could fail.

It may take the better part of a decade to design and install the new rudder controls on nearly 4,000 aircraft, but Boeing insisted Thursday that 737s are safe, saying the problem is rare and that the previous fixes eliminated the most dangerous of the potential failures.

BTW: A lot of aircraft don't have pedal center indents.

To be honest with you, I have no problems getting on either type of aircraft. They're both statistically safe, well-proven, but imperfect designs. Like every other aircraft I've flown commercially.

[karlrschneider]

19. "pedal center indents"? Not sure what you mean here...

rudder pedals are generally mostly flat (some that incorporate toe-brakes are a bit convex though)...

[Ian David]

5. I don't mind getting on one. You know why?

What if my wife and I are making travel reservations, and I tell her, "Ask the airline not to put us on an A300 Airbus"?

And so, we get on a 747 or something.

And then, as we're flying along, there's an accident and as the plane is going down, my wife looks at me and says, "You know, we're only on this plane because you insisted on not flying on the other plane."

Yes, I am more afraid of my wife blaming me for our demise than I am of death itself.

[Robb]

7. LOL!

Sign of a good marriage. :thumbsup:

[lonestarnot]

9. creeerack me up IanDB1

:rofl:

[Marnieworld]

6. I was always suspicious of this crash

It was so close to 9-11 and it was so odd that within the day the cause of the accident was determined and the story was dropped. It was all so quick and odd to me. Then several weeks later we have the attempted shoe bombing. I bet this one was a shoe bombing too that was successful. I thought at the time that it would be too damaging to the powers that be and the country's psyche to say we had yet another attack. Would anyone ever fly again? The anthrax scare was also happening. The official reports also differed from what witnesses on the ground saw. Witnesses say they saw a mid-air explosion but this would not have happened with the official version of events.

I've stopped believing everything. It's less disappointing when the truth comes out and we find out we have been lied to yet again.

[leveymg]

12. So was I, until I saw a picture of the tail as it was fished out of the

Bay. It had snapped clean across where it was bolted to the top of the aft section of the airframe. Like most large, modern passenger aircraft, the tail is composite plastic (carbon fiber) while the fuselage remains aluminum. The plastic snaps under stess at the mounting points first. Seen it happen on race cars, several times.

[RamboLiberal]

16. I'm pissed they keep trying to blame the pilots and wake

turbulence for this. No way in hell I think. I believe there is a design flaw in this rudder and the composite materials.

[Lost4words]

29. There is more to it, there is more to it! I am telling you!

see my post # 23 in this thread

[Lost4words]

28. See my post # 23!

Your suspicions are probably warranted Mw!

[roody]

10. I only fly 2 or 3 times a year, but

I love the Airbus. It is so quiet. I imagine there is more than one model of Airbus.

[Canuckistanian]

14. That's because the engines keep cutting out

Little known fact... :D

[phrenzy]

15. lol

haha good one!

Oh man.. .I've always hated the name "AirBUS" too. It just sounds like, well, an old rickety Greyhound bus in the air.

I know that is dumb, but oh well. I'm just terrified of planes in general.

[Canuckistanian]

17. I am too

I almost have to be forced to fly. Whenever I do, I freak out at every little thump or change in engine noise.

I once went though some major turbulence (a huge thunderstorm). I literally thought I was going to die. But all the executives around me just kept reading their papers.

I would have kissed the ground when we landed but for my legendary Canadian reticence.

[phrenzy]

20. Only Way I'll Get On A Plane: Ativan (nt)

[Canuckistanian]

21. Canadian Club... (n/t)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Saves fuel that way.

[Gman]

18. The flight that crashed the very same day as the report on the media

recount of Florida from '00 was due to come out. The report came out and barely got a mention in the media. All the focus was on this crash.

What a coincidence. That crash could possibly have been the first murder-coverup of the this administration.

[happydreams]

22. Yes. Always re-open aircraft crash investigations when you can.

One of these days the something irrefutable and damning will turn up.

[Lost4words]

23. There were/are some very interesting aspects of this crash!

Allot has been said about the tail of the Airbus, the past problems were with de lamination, the virtual undoing of the composite material. No previous incident involved the the loss of the entire horizontal and vertical stabilizers. The stresses to do that are outside the normal operating envelope of of this and most modern commercial aircraft. So it would take something other than normal flight.

The engines both came off the wings and landed in two separate areas not directly under the flight path.


Again it takes an awful lot to stresses to send two engines this size both in separate directions outward from the center of the aircraft/flight path.

Next is the fact that even at stall speed these things go what 100 mph +/- so even with the loss of a tail section the craft would still have forward momentum.

Many crashes that dont go straight down leave a trail of debris and/or wreckage, the ones that go straight in leave almost nothing intact.

So here is the strange fact that you can all look up if you want.

The wreckage was limited to basically two normal sized homes across the street from each other were destroyed, parts of the fuselage were on one home with seats in place and one passenger holding an unsecured infant, still clutched in their arms!

The impact of a more normal crash the adult could not have held on to the baby.

So the theories I have heard and am inclined to favor is either the mechanical failure of or sabotage to this aircraft. In particular the thrust reversers or rather just one. It had spent the night at the far end of the field next to a chain link fence with no local guard or attendant.

If you study the CVR transcripts, the copilot (who I feel did nothing wrong) noticed what he thought was rough air/ aircraft vibration, so they requested either another FP or altitude (I forget which),.
the vibration continued with SOME loss of control, the decision was made to increase power to clime above and regain control. All by the book. I believe that with Full power and one thrust reverser full on, the craft became Frisbee like and floated somewhat to earth. And that would be a force that would surly be enough stress rip off the Airbus tail. It would also explain the engines ripping outward from the centrifical force. Engines are mounted with the greatest strength forward and aft not side to side, in fact they are made to allow a little swing from side to side.

I know many here will say it cant happen this way, that the thrust revers cannot be deployed separately so on and so forth. But before you fully dismiss this as madness, research the articles, the on seen interviews, and the local news crews and on site interviews.

I suspect we will never know for sure. But I dont trust any agency under the junta to give us the truth. And I do think they would have no qualms to cover it up.

As far as Airbus, I have to say they are very bit as good if not better than their North American counterparts.

I'll go away now...


Later

Ok so I am back for a little edit cleanup and addition.

[YouthInAsia]

25. Im still waiting for them to reopen TWA flight 800, the one ppl

claim was shot outta the sky w/a missle. I alsways thought that was true and that they'd NEVER tell us cuz who in the hell would EVER fly again if they knew their plane could be shot outta the sky. It would have bankrupted the airline industry.

[Lost4words]

26. EXACTLY!

I can hear them now, Its for the country, The people cant handel the truth, we must protect the industry.

[YouthInAsia]

27. yup. precisely.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. If you don't believe the official story, this is a very good website....

Flight 587 Coverage
<http://usread.com/flight587.html>

[Radio_Lady]

32. Thanks for the link. Looks kind of unattended at this time.