Report: Americans fleeing nation's big cities

[RedEarth]

WASHINGTON - Americans are leaving the nation’s big cities in search of cheaper homes and open spaces farther out.

Nearly every large metropolitan area had more people move out than move in from 2000 to 2004, with a few exceptions in the South and Southwest, according to a report being released Thursday by the Census Bureau.

Northeasterners are moving South and West. West Coast residents are moving inland. Midwesterners are chasing better job markets. And just about everywhere, people are escaping to the outer suburbs, also known as exurbs.

“It’s a case of middle class flight, a flight for housing affordability,” said William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank. “But it’s not just white middle class flight, it’s Hispanics and blacks, too.”

The Census Bureau measured domestic migration — people moving within the United States — from 1990 to 2000, and from 2000 to 2004. The report provides the number of people moving into and out of each state and the 25 largest metropolitan areas. The states that attracted the most new residents: Florida, Arizona and Nevada. The states that lost the most: New York, California and Illinois.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12395115

[Inland]

1. Just in time for $3.00/Gal gasoline! nt

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. Heh, morons. (nt)

[AndyTiedye]

20. Not Always By Choice

Many are forced out by condo conversion of their apartments.

[QC]

30. Perhaps they can't afford a million bucks for a studio apartment.

The bubble has been very hard on working people.

[anotherdrew]

52. they don't mention Portland. are we the only growing city in the west?

see the little red dot in the NW

[TriMetFan]

136. I know what you mean.

My house keeps going up in value by $3,000.00 per. month. I keep telling my friends that have not bought any type of home to buy now!.

[ShortnFiery]

69. In D.C. area, even the Upper Middle Class are moving out

to south of the beltway. If you have children, you have to live at least 90 minute trip ONE-way outside of the beltway in order to afford anything other than a very small apartment.

It's a living hell for even those who make high five figures or low $100,000/year because the *big boys and girls* in the top jobs expect you to be at work at O'Dark thirty A.M. They don't realize that their 30 minute commute (upper class) equates to an average of THREE hours round trip for us middle to upper-middle management type working slugs.

Can we say burn out? That's why we accept a lower standard of living in our family. I could not be a good mom (proper caring attitude and dedication of time) if I continued to commute back and forth from the Crystal City area. One has to be almost super-human if you wish to raise your children to be well-educated, aware, happy and healthy human beings.

[cantstandbush]

71. What part of DC do you live in? They can't build enough condos

or renovate enough brownstones to meet the demand. Folks are moving in from the burbs and other places. And these are young people with families. I see folks with baby carriages (most are white, upwardly mobile families), dogs, bicycles, and jogging outfits all over the neighborhoods that were formerly predominately black. Maybe we don't frequent the same parts of DC?

[ShortnFiery]

139. We definitely don't live in the same D.C.

Really, if you have school age children and wish to live in something larger than a cracker-box type condo ... well, we also have a dog who love her walks with lots of grass to sniff and trees to mark.

Yes, if you don't mind a small apartment/condo and sending your children to inadequate public schools, you can survive for less than 100,000 / year.

We're talking within 30 minutes commute of D.C. comprises mostly High-End 400-500 thousand dollar houses. Small condos may work for some - that I forgot to mention, but that's not living IMO. ;)

[smtpgirl]

101. Hopefully I will get a job that I interviewed for that is less than

15 miles from my home. I live in Montgomery County, MD, where traffic is a bitch. I will gladly take less money so I don't have to drive with the assholes on the Beltway in Metro DC to get to my job. I will use MUCH less gas in order to get to the new job.

At my former job, it was 30 miles away, and took at least 60 minutes to get to work. On top of the gas, I had to pay for ferry fees, because I crossed a waterway. This cost would be at least $52 more for 30 trips to go across the ferry. The 30 trips would only cover 15 days of the month. I worked 20-21 days a month, so I had to purchase ferry tickets twice a month, which adds $104 per month for the ferry trips then adding the gas purchases for my monthly gas costs to just go wo work.

At my last job I made $45k per year. Last year I spent $832 on just the ferry trips.

So my real "NET" pay sucked.

If I could walk to a job, I most certainly would!!!!!!!!

[NMDemDist2]

2. i'm part of that statistic

sorta, I'm leaving the big AZ city for a small town in NM

[LiberalPartisan]

3. Not in Atlanta

People are moving in town from the burbs - new condo development is booming.

[dysfunctional press]

4. same with chicago.

housing is going up EVERYWHERE.

[Critters2]

8. No, sadly

Chicagoans are moving out here (LaSalle County), and then bitching about how it's not Chicago.

Morans.

[dysfunctional press]

32. there's lots of people moving into the city as well...

a lot of them young professionals.
the entire downtown area is more vibrant than it's been in a long long time.

[saigon68]

54. until they have kids who are introduced to crack dealers

then they, (the young professionals) flee to a "Gated Community" way out in the burbs

The one with the bleached blond cheer leaders and where every kid drives a new Jeep Wrangler or Mitsu Eclipse

[0007]

66. ...Out where everyone drives a Hummer to School and gets

hummer during lunch hour.

[saigon68]

74. I've heard about that

[dysfunctional press]

82. and the kids drive their shiny new wranglers right into the city

over to humboldt park,
and then become the crack dealer for their gated community.

btw- there are gated "communities" going up IN the city as well.

[Susang]

89. Dude, I live in Humboldt Park

And you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[dysfunctional press]

90. wanna bet?

I've bought plenty of pot in the area, and am ALWAYS being offered crack.

but i'm just a pothead.

[kysrsoze]

131. I think you're on crack right now

[kysrsoze]

86. Too bad you know nothing about living in Chicago

Things have changed. Lots of families are staying in the city. The neighborhoods are loaded with kids. The burbs suck. I know because I spent 4 years in the hellhole that is called Schaumburg.

[shrike]

59. OR, they want everything frozen in time, now that they are here

Nothing new can be built, now that they have their little piece of heaven.

[XNASA]

84. I thought they moved out there and bitched that it wasn't Boston.

:shrug:

[Inland]

9. Well, yes and no.

Housing is going up everywhere in Chicago, and there's lots of infill and concentration, even in suburban towns, but it's sprawling out farther too.

[dysfunctional press]

33. i have some friends west of the fox valley-

2 years ago, they were both in small, older, established subdivisions- surrounded by fields and woods...now they're each in a sea of new houses. they don't seem as generally happy as they used too, either.

[Critters2]

45. Most of us who've been here a while wish Chicagoans would stay

in Chicago

[dysfunctional press]

50. don't worry about me-

i was born and raised out that way, but moved into the city a LONG time ago, when i started working downtown...and if/when i decide to leave, i'll be bypassing the sub-urban areas altogether, and moving up behind the cheddar curtain...feingold country. the collar counties around chicago pretty much all suck big time.

[kysrsoze]

132. Bravo. If I ever leave the city I'll head somewhere out in the woods.

It's not Chicagoans you're seeing. It's suburban people who move directly to your area.

[Inland]

58. Sure, and in the next breath

talk about the prices their houses are going to fetch. It's all part of the same scenario.

[Critters2]

65. I've put my land in a conservation trust,

so people from the city won't be able to buy it and ruin it. Not everyone here thinks "development" is a good thing. Some of us would like open land to stay open land.

[Inland]

75. So would I.

I also know that to become not open land, it has to be sold or built upon. So "not everyone" is pretty much right; it's most everyone, at least until somebody puts together and votes in a no growth zoning policy.

[Critters2]

109. There's this sense of inevitability that's the problem here

People here seem to think that there's nothing they can do in the face of "development". But we have fought some of it successfully. There were developers who wanted to build condos on Plum Island, in the middle of the Illinois River. The Audubon Society and local organizers raised enough money to buy the island, and created a perpetual habitat for the eagles and other wildlife who live there. The developers tried to fight it. They absolutely did not see the value of the land in and of itself, and as a piece of nature worthy of being saved.

That's pretty much when I came to the conclusion that "developers", and those who buy the houses they build, are evil.

[shrike]

134. There's also the problem of taxes

It's all well and good to say open land should stay open land. But will you pay the taxes? Or pay to maintain it.

I know a woman with 80 acres of farmland in Indiana. It's been in her family for years. The state wants to charge her $30,000 a year in taxes. That's five zeroes. Needless to say, she's selling most of it.

Then there's another lady who owns a large, lovely wooded parcel that's been in the family since the 1930s. Her daughter, now in her mid-40s, has to maintain it, clear out the junk and volunteer trees, get rid of the beaver dams, etc. However, in a few years the daughter figures she'll be unable to maintain the property on her own, so the two plan to subdivide it, into very large lots, with covenances in place that restrict the removal of vegetation. The daughter and granddaughter will be living in this subdivision. Plus, Mom is at a point where she can't afford the taxes and needs the money to live on.

However, the neighbors are fighting the development so as to preserve the "natural beauty." (They don't want to buy the place, mind you, just have the owners keep it natural for their sakes.) These same people have used this parcel as a dumping ground for their junk for years. The owners tell me they had to put up a high fence and even sue one property owner to keep him off their property.

All this said, the Audubon Sociey purchase sounds terrific. There's going to have to be more of that, more organizing and more planning -- and more money available!

[QC]

11. Is anybody moving into that new housing?

There's new housing going up everywhere around here, too, but it's mostly sitting empty. Speculators have been buying it, and they're about to lose their asses.

[dysfunctional press]

31. oh yes...chicago still has a pretty good market.

supply and demand- and people ARE moving into the city.

[QC]

35. Beach town here. Snowbirds and flippers.

Just about every inch of beach has a soulless concrete monolith sitting on it now. Inventory is going up quickly, and half the town now seems to be for sale, but nothing is moving. The big banks are starting to cut off funding for the condo developers. Things are going to get ugly here.

[dysfunctional press]

37. chicago has oak st. beach- the water's cold, but getting warmer...

iy used to be that if you were lucky, you'd get a few days of water in the 70's (degrees F) in mid-late august. now it's been getting into the 70's in june.
but the beach(oak st., anyway) is in the shadows of the high-rises west of lsd by 3pm.

[Inland]

56. Chicago's a beach town, too.

Ohio Street Beach 2005. I considered this picture in a "name that beach" contest.

[Critters2]

117. That water is getting warmer thanks to all the fossil fuel

being used to commute between Chicago and the suburbs. Nice that you can see the glass as half full!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

17. I saw that 2 weeks ago when I was there. I'm actually thinking of

moving.

[dysfunctional press]

34. about the only thing that's gonna hurt the chicago real estate market-

is a retalitory(or terrorist) nuclear strike.

[Kittycat]

40. I think we had to move beyond the Chicago Exurbs - Oswego

My friends tease that we live in Iowa now :( If it weren't for my husband working from home 3 days/week, his commute would have meant that we would be living in a 2br ranch, for the price we paid for our 4 br house out here.

[dysfunctional press]

43. yeah, that's a hike... but a testament to the chicago real estate market

my wife is a reverse-commuter...she takes the train to her job in glenview.
we had thought about cashing out this year, and moving to feingold country- behind the cheddar curtain...but cooler heads prevailed.

[Kittycat]

44. Better than here. I have to see the Hastert Signs - DAILY

:puke:

[Critters2]

47. It used to be beautiful country

before all the look alike houses. Thanks a lot.

[dysfunctional press]

51. beautiful country???

i thought we were talking about northern illinois...

if that's the kind of geography that you consider to be "beautiful country"...well- i guess you don't get out much, do you?

[Critters2]

64. Rich, black soil fed by slowly rolling rivers and creeks is beautiful

I think you're the one who doesn't get out much. I do birding in northern Illinois, and the landscape--before the "developers" arrive--is perfect for a great variety of species, from eagles to hawks to herons to finches. But, as the people move in from the city, the birds and wildlife will be forced out. And then this beautiful countryside will look like every other cookie cutter suburb on the planet.

[dysfunctional press]

79. being born and raised a flatlander-

i've realized that you have to get beyond the borders of illinois (garden of the gods excepted) to find truly beautiful landscapes and geography. you don't necessarily have to go far though- wisconsin is really pretty.

[Critters2]

106. I find the flatlands beautiful

but for some, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

If it's not beautiful out here, why do people from Chicago insist on moving here?

[Kittycat]

60. It still is. Apparently you don't know much about our town or county

Our area is one of the few that is requireing greenspace, and natural landspace. In addition, they've put such tough restrictions on the builders, that it's turned many away. They're limiting commerical development in mass to specific sections, and protecting many farms. Beyond our neighborhood is a wealth of horse farms/riding stables, and crops. A recent sale on the border of our neighborhood was denied by the council, forcing the Commercial sale to revert BACK to residential only, zoned single family. It's only a six acres, so it will have to become a custom home space, or another small farm for animals.

Our neighborhood is not a cookie cutter neighborhood either. The homes are styled after 4-square, country farm houses, etc. We have walking trails that snake through the entire neighborhood, and butt up against the mandated natural spaces. There's a huge natural water preserve that runs the entire length of our subdivision, and two large pond-like natural waterways elsewhere in the middle. We have so many birds, geese, rabbits - and even pigeons (skyrats). I can look out my office window, and just see green. I can't wait for the lillies and grasses to come back for the summer, the view is quite breathtaking I can assure you.

We owned a 108yo victorian before deciding to move here. We took great joy in finishing the restoration projects on that house. It was our intention to stay there for all time, but the neighborhood was too rough to raise a child in - and it was getting worse. We had the cops out there every week, spoke with landlords, and did all that we could to change things. But we have a child to think about now, not our own desire to have a beautiful old house, in a historic neighborhood that was falling apart around us.

So when we selected this town and builder, it was for the many things that it did to protect the land, and blend in with the natural surroundings. We have mature trees edging the entire neighborhood, and they've replanted within. I have 3 trees in my front yard, as do all of my neighbors - some have more. I only had 2 trees at my last house.

So don't boohoo me. We would have gladly purchased an existing home, if we could have found one that was affordable, and that met our needs. Sorry, but I can't live in Naperville, Glen Ellyn, Wheaton, Hinsdale, etc - the cheapest ranches are $300K, and not suitable for two adults that work from home, and a child. I have to have studio space (I sew and design children's clothing/bedding), and my husband is here 3 days/week and needs an office.

[Critters2]

110. The United States will become a net importer of food

for the first time this year. One important reason for that is the amount of arable land being turned into subdivisions. All that "mandated greenspace" used to be farm land, that served the important function of feeding people. So, unless you're doing sustainable farming on that big lawn of yours, I'm not impressed.

Oh, and those "natural waterways" are retntion ponds, to protect the land from the damage of all that building and paving.

[Critters2]

111. Had to?

Why did you "have to" move to a new subdivision?

[Kittycat]

129. Yes. Had to.

Enough explanation.

[AngryAmish]

77. Nope - there is a net exodus

There may be more units but less density. Families are smaller. Divorce creates extra households. Plus folks with kids move out because of the schools.

[dysfunctional press]

83. my point was about the real estate market-

which is still pretty hot.
and actually- less density helps- fewer people means more room for the rest of us.

[AngryAmish]

85. true, true

Except that folks are richer nowadays and own more cars. Plus the permit parking lets folks have a parking space all the time for free and encourages car ownership in dense areas thus making the parking worse. I guess I'm a gloomy gus.

[dysfunctional press]

87. i detest permit parking

i think it should be abolished.

we have 1 car, and a 2 1/2 car garage- but we park on the street, since the garage is full of CRAP.(not literally "crap"...junk? -although there are lots of mouse turds.)

[serryjw]

133. Interesting observation

I had not considered. (Divorce creates extra households)...not to mention 40% of Americans live alone.

[greatauntoftriplets]

88. On every vacant lot imaginable!

And in locations that I would never have thought to be suitable for residential development.

The Chicago market is extremely hot. I just sold my house on the Far North Side in less than a week. The move (which is 4/29) is taking shitloads more time than the sale.

[dysfunctional press]

91. they're even making more vacant lots too-

lots of places being torn down to make way for new 3-flats.

[mopinko]

100. thread jack. since there are so many chicagoan on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5050840

[AndyTiedye]

21. And Condo Development is Forcing Poor People Out

That could easily add up to a decline in population,
as the displaced households are likely to be larger.

[Kittycat]

41. Condo's are STARTING at the 250's here

That's with a 1.5 hour commute by train into the city. 2 hours by car.

[Lorien]

39. Same with Orlando

condo skyrises are like mushrooms around here. But urban living is easier on the environment, so I'm not complaining.

[Bridget Burke]

76. And the people who lived the apartments or rent houses...

Where the condos are being built will just have to find new places to live. Since the suburbanites have finally discovered urban living, the non-wealthy urbanites will go....where?

[bananas]

5. Wow - look at the graph

Huge movement from San Diego to the desert.

[AX10]

19. That's a massive shift into the dessert.

[XemaSab]

49. Hey, nothing wrong with a little dessert!

In moderation, of course. :+

[dysfunctional press]

104. will the last person to leave north dakota...

please turn out the lights...?

[Critters2]

112. Actually, I'm looking into the Dakotas as a place to move

precisely because I hate crowds and love open space. Illinois is just one big effing subdivision...with a corrupt state government.

[TheFarseer]

143. Fargo public schools are advertising like crazy

to get people to come teach. I've been looking at alot of employment aids to find a new gig and I've noticed that.

[cascadiance]

7. Yes, the big cities are really risky now...

San Diego ISN'T one of those exceptions Southwest. This article notes that big money around here is NO LONGER going into real estate, and that the expectations are that the market is preparing for a drop here.

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=486837&ct=2196515

Another article shows that there's been a net loss of population here in San Diego for the first time in a long time due to housing costs too.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060316/news_1n16pop.html

My bet is that the reason why you see those big red areas in the areas of the southwest is that they are the close by areas that many of those in San Diego, L.A., and perhaps even the Bay Area are moving to now.

[xchrom]

10. maybe when i sell my condo here in the bay area

i'll be able to find a place in the northeast -- cause they'll all have gone to jesusland.

you know a nice cottage in new hampshire right on the ocean.

yeah -- i'm dreaming.

[Demeter]

13. NH Has Only 12 Miles of Coastline

You would also freeze to death. If you want a cottage, come to Michigan--48th in the nation, economically. Prices of everything (except gas) are depressed.

[xchrom]

14. oh -- now there's an idea -- thanks!

[Demeter]

15. Forgot To Mention Seabrook Nuclear Plant, Various Military Dumps

There isn't much to see in NH, I looked for 29 years and gave up and came home to the land of Gitchi Gummi....

[xchrom]

16. and nachomis

[AndyTiedye]

22. "Live Free or Die" Is Their Attitude Towards Public Assistance

[Demeter]

62. Or Public Services

[Critters2]

48. Salisbury Beach!

My favorite beach in the whole world. Beautiful!!

[DetroitProle]

127. we used to have a cottage up north

back when we could afford it.
So beautiful up there, winter, summer, spring, or fall.
I love Michigan. It's so beautiful. It saddens me that everyone else wants to leave.

[shrike]

142. We're thinking of moving back

If real estate continues to skyrocket here in Indiana we might just cash out and buy a little piece of heaven in Michigan.

[Ayesha]

12. Tired of being packed in like sardines

I know I am sick of living in LA, where there's no place to park AND shitty public transportation, where housing is impossibly expensive, and you've either got nosy snobby yuppies living 5 feet away in every direction, or immigrants packed 10 to an apartment playing loud music. Humans evolved to live in small groups, surrounded by nature, not like this. Many of us also have a need for privacy/their own quiet space that big cities cannot provide. So I say, no wonder!

We're actually looking to move to San Diego next year, where we can afford a house on a large lot with trees and privacy. Maybe we'll get a good deal!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Ironically, so much of suburban and even exurban development is

in the form of apartments and condos.

People move twenty miles from work and five miles from the nearest stores just so they can live right on top of each other next to a cornfield. :crazy:

[kineneb]

18. no mention of another group

Those who lost their jobs, and sold out to save their equity. That is why we live in the country- it was the only place we could afford with what we got for our Bay Area house. Yes, the price had doubled from when we purchased, but we knew that Hubby's health was in decline and paying on a large mortgage would not be possible.

[Gormy Cuss]

72. I think yours is a growing sector of the moveouts.

More in cities outside of California because when the house values go up in other areas the real estate taxes go up with them. I know people who made a similar move out of Boston to rural counties in western Mass, NH or Maine.

[kineneb]

97. not only that

But the move lowered our mortgage payment from ~$800 to $168/month ($268 if one includes the set-asides for property tax). It makes it possible, but not comfortable to live on Hubby's disablility check. I am sure we are not the only ones to do something like this.

[Gormy Cuss]

98. It's great that you could do that.

I know people who sold their overpriced Boston shacks and with the equity alone were able to buy small older houses in other parts of New England. The motive was similar, a need to downsize the debt with the downsized finances.

I remember from your other posts that you still have enjoyed a sizeable appreciation so you should be able to ride out the market correction.:thumbsup:

[kineneb]

99. we are just thankful

that what we pay in mortgage and taxes is lower than any rents around here.

...not planning on moving anytime soon...

[anakie]

23. it is happening in Australia as well

where it is called a sea change. People,usually in early middle age, are selling up in the big cities, especially of Sydney and Melbourne, cashing in on their equity in their houses and moving to smaller cities and towns; especially on the coast. Housing prices in Sydney and Melbourne have increased dramatically over the last 5 to 7 years and after selling up and buying that sea change house on the beach, you still have a large amount of money left over - to buy that SUV.

Employment is a problem once you leave the big smoke but many have the left over capital in their houses and look for some form of casual work until their superannuation and pensions kick in at about 55 years of age.

FYI - a decent house in a decent suburb of Sydney starts at about $500k; completely ridiculous if you are just starting out buying there but selling up is great.

[AndyTiedye]

24. Maybe Something to Do With The Way Our Government Keeps Our Cities Safe

not to mention:

[BiggJawn]

25. I wonder what Frey's idea of "Middle Class" is?

There's a lot of poor who live out here in these small towns.

Lot of talk going around about how we could move in town if gas gets too high, but look at it like this:

My rent is $425 here. If i were to be able to even FIND something nearer to work, it'd would cost at least $760 for the same size unit. College towns are like that, rent out a 2-bedroom to 3-4 guys, they can afford $800. and If the working Poor start fleeing back INTO the city, there's gonna be a fight over what lttle low-price housing remains.

I see this as a type of "churn". The grandchildren of the ones who built the huge Victorian houses downtown are now returning and "gentrifying" the neighbourhoods. This has pushed the Poor further out into the suburbs, and the middle class is moving even farther out.
but what happens when Bush finishes killing off the Middle class? Do the Nuvo Working Poor trade places with the Old-Order Poor?

I'm not too worried out here. I figure when ADM goes bust and abandons all this land they own, we could probably form a collective to farm it enough to feed ourselves.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Yeah, save $200 a month on your mortgage so that you

can spend $400 extra a month on cars and gasoline.

The elephant in the living room driving the rush to the suburbs is racism. Always has been. "Blockbusting," the practice of real estate agents getting white residents of an urban neighborhood panicked into selling by going door to door saying, "The *****s are coming!" was well-documented in the 1950s and 1960s.

Since people of color moved into the inner suburbs long ago, the racists are moving farther out to the cornfields. They say they're doing it for "better schools," but having grown up in one of those "better schools" (which was mediocre and obsessed with sports at the expense of academics) in what was then an exurb, I call bullshit on their claims.

When I was working temp back in the 1980s, I was sent to exurban companies, and when I complained about having to drive so far to the job, people told me frankly that they moved into the burbs because they didn't want to hire black people. Because black people didn't want to work and preferred to live on welfare. (Wait a minute! You don't want to hire black people, but according to you, they don't want to work anyway...)

It's not considered polite to say these things, but if you're honest with yourself, you know you've heard people express sentiments like this: "Can't have mass transit here. The blacks will come out and recruit our children into gangs." "I'm afraid to go into the city--too many blacks and Mexicans there."

Racism makes you stupid.

[saigon68]

55. They call those places Clorox Communities

Where the Powers that be, have erected rules, policies, zoning requirements etc

To "WHITEN UP" the Place

[AndyTiedye]

78. We Moved Out of the City to Avoid a Long Reverse Commute

My employer at the time had moved out into the burbs
because they were expanding and needed more space.
They could not obtain that much space in the city.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. Well that makes more sense

It's the people who work in the city but live fifty miles out of it whose lifestyle is unsustainable.

[susanna]

103. Lydia, you hit the nail on the head for me...

with this line:

"They say they're doing it for 'better schools,' but having grown up in one of those 'better schools' (which was mediocre and obsessed with sports at the expense of academics) in what was then an exurb, I call bullshit on their claims."

You and me both! I now live in the what was the first suburb of a major northern city. It is urban in feel and in look, but unusual in its sense of community, which goes back to the early 1900s. My city's general makeup is 40/40/20; black and white are the 40-percenters, while hispanic folks make up the remaining 20. I really love this place. The schools are quite good and there are some stellar students here who go on to much bigger and better things.

My middle class parents, who escaped as far as they could from the city, hate that my husband and I live so near it. They constantly remind us and that we make enough to live in a middle-class-suburb near them. Well, I don't want to. I can think of a million better uses of my time than to sit in gridlock on the freeway to get to my job.

So in essence, I am the inverse of the original post; I grew up in suburbia, yet went nearer to a city at my first opportunity (15 years ago). I guess grandma was right; it takes all kinds...

on edit: typos...

[Ilsa]

28. My dad moved us out into the burbs in the 1960's. He wanted

more room to garden (he was great at growing vegetables) and not hear police car sirens all night. He just wanted a little more room to walk around and not listen to neighbors' conversations. And he wanted that for us. So not all of it is related to racism or "white flight".

[Kittycat]

42. delete

[susanna]

140. That is exactly what my Dad did...and wanted for us.

When I was younger and had no ideas of my own, I certainly loved it, and still have fond memories of that time.

Later, as I learned more about the world, I found it stifling to have no human interaction with different cultures or people. Because of that, I ended up moving very near the city.

I do not think our parents were wrong, but there is the idea that every generation decides for itself. I moved to a place that my Dad freaked out over, initially; but now, he loves my house! Kind of strange, isn't it...?

[NEOBuckeye]

29. "the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world"

Kunstler said it best about suburbanization. We cannot go on like this as a nation, carelessly building new developments further and further out into the countryside, spreading cities and infrastructure outward that are almost entirely dependant upon cheap fossil fuel to maintain. And from the politically unstable Middle East at that. Do you realize how incredibly shortsighted and ridiculous this is? Do you even realize the predicament that we are in as a nation?

What happens when gas goes up to $5.00 per gallon? What about $8.00 per gallon? I'm not talking about a temporary spike, either. These will be sustained prices, and the days when these numbers greet you at the pump are far closer than you want to believe. Forget not minding the daily commute. What happens when you simply cannot afford to make it, or when the gas to make it is rationed or even non-existant?

We don't need to abandon our cities. We need to make them livable again and structure our lives around efficient uses of energy and other resources.

I'm sure that no one cares about doing so, however. At least, not until they have no other choice.

[AndyTiedye]

92. The Cities Are Not Being Abandoned. They're Already Full

A lot of people listened to Kunstler and moved into the city.
When they moved in, somebody else had to move out.
Somebody with less money.

[alarimer]

36. More sprawl

more roads, more cars on the road (most not carpooling either). Great, let's just pave it all over.

[Critters2]

46. I think that's the slogan of the great state of Illinois

Me, I'm moving back to Iowa ASAP. It hasn't been completely paved over. Yet.

[drhilarius]

38. If i had to choose between death or suburbs...

i'd choose death.

[Critters2]

137. Amen

As my area becomes more suburban, it's time for me to consider where I can move to get away from 'em. I will NOT live in a suburb.

I'll be moving to rural Iowa or Kansas, someplace the SUV and day care set won't want to be.

[susanna]

141. You are my soulmate. n/t

[union_maid]

53. In New York it's certainly not white flight

Anyone not truly affluent has been priced out of the city and the push is moving farther out into the suburbs. Life is simply not affordable a huge income. It's certainly not white flight. The opposite, if anything. New York city is losing black people and if you see the prices for apartments in former minority neighborhoods you'll see why. Homes in places that, formerly, you only lived in if you had to are now going for upwards of a million dollars. The inner suburbs were always mostly expensive, but are now exhorbitant. Out here on Long Island, where there's only so far you can go, our children are leaving because there's no life for them here. Yes, there are jobs, but no way to pay for a place to live until/unless you're getting real executive pay. It's a terrible situation.

[smirkymonkey]

123. I am looking for another apartment in NYC and I am shocked at

what I am going to have to spend to just get an apartment share! Forget about my own place, unless I want an hour commute. I am looking at about $1400-$1500 per month just to share an apartment in Manhattan with another person (that is the upper limit of what I can afford) - I want to continue to walk to work, but I may have to go out to the boroughs, which I really don't want to do (all my friends are in the city.)

New York used to be a great city, but unless you are making well over $100K per year or you want to live like a college student, the housing situation almost makes it not worth it. It's criminal what they charge for shitholes the size of a closet.

[shadowknows69]

57. I think people sense

things are about to hit the fan around here and a densly populated area might not be a good place to be.

[ramapo]

61. Need to reverse sprawl

Our cities need to be revitalized while retained as an affordable place to live for the middle-class and below. Continued sprawl will not be sustainable and the suburban/exhurban life is inefficient at best. The flight to the desert regions is especially foolish given the obvious constraints on resources in those areas.

[JVS]

122. Cities need to be smaller

I live in a city with about 100,000 people in the area. It's nice. I can do what I want and get what I need, I can walk to work or take a bus, but if I want to I can drive across town without traffic and it's only a few miles.

[dapper]

63. This article is about me!

I left NY, sold my $400k house, paid off the mortgage, moved to the Mid West (Indy) and purchased a brand new house a little bigger for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of my house in NY.

NY was nice but it was too much of a struggle. Although I am making less money, I'm also not paying out as much money.
Day Care in NY $950 - Indy $360 (could be $650 but wife is working from home)
Tax in NY $9000 - Indy $2000

I took out a small mortgage which I can pay with 1 weeks pay. I wish I would have done this years ago instead of struggling and struggling.

This was definately a no brainer!

Dap

[Roland99]

67. Is that pushing up the quantity demanded of gasoline, then?

Move further out to afford a house and then pay through the nose for gas to get back and forth.

[Critters2]

113. Exactly

Very wise :eyes:

[FlaGranny]

68. A born and raised country girl, I cannot

imagine having to live in a city. A loud, crowded, noisy place, sirens, bus noises and fumes. Hot as hell in the summer. I must have grass under my feet and shade trees to sit under. I must have butterflies to watch and birds to listen to. I must be in a place where (like a few months ago) I went outside in the evening and saw and heard a pair of foxes going past; and where, if I look quickly I might catch a glimpse of a 7-foot black snake slipping under some bushes. At night I can hear the mating calls of frogs and the singing of a mockingbird. I can smell orange blossoms in the evening. I see rabbits chasing each other around. I go outside day or night and I can see the sky. I don't live in the country any more. I live in the suburbs now, but I still have some daily contact with nature, and I would be extremely unhappy without that.

[mike923]

73. Amen!

I moved from San Diego, to the back woods of northern Michigan. For what i used to pay in rent to share a two bedroom one bath condo in the middle of a concrete jungle, i got 8 yr old 3000 sq ft house on 5 acres. And it is right next to millions of acres of state game land. Deer, Turkeys, rabbits, the occasional bear. It's heaven.

[RedEarth]

80. Me too...I can't imagine not being able to walk outside and enjoy my

yard, hear the birds and smell the fresh air.

This morning on CNN they were talking about the doormen's strike in NYC and one of the guests said how he was somewhat concerned since he wasn't sure how he was going to get his children's bikes out of the storage area in the buildings basement since their doorman had the keys. No way I could live in that type of environment.

[Critters2]

114. Thanks for reminding me why I will one day return to Iowa n/t

[freestyle]

125. We have all of that in Baltimore, really.

I live in a typical Baltimore rowhouse, a few blocks from a huge park. In that park, there is all the wildlife you mentioned. I agree with you on the need for daily contact with nature, but it is not an either/or situation. Many cities have extensive public lands with numerous opportunities to commune with nature. Last fall, I was walking my dog around the reservoir in the park, and we spent a few minutes watching a family of deer before they went back into the woods. Granted, all of this will probably not be in your backyard, but it will be close by. I would venture to say that there is far more natural environment in or close to most city neighborhoods than most suburban ones.

As for the country, I really do like to visit, but I am too much of an urbanite to live there. Unfortunately, rural America has many of the same problems urban America does, and suburban sprawl and corporate greed drag down both.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. And I live in an urban neighborhood

with tree-lined streets, houses with lawns and big porches, and a lake with goot and bike paths. Cities such as Minneapolis, St. Paul, Portland, and Seattle have large areas that look like small towns. There are even parts of New York City that don't look like the New York neighborhoods you see on TV.

[underpants]

70. LBN from 1956?

Just kidding.

[JPZenger]

81. 150,000 Leaving Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens Per Year

A link to the full text of the report, with maps, is on the homepage of www.census.gov. The tables show that there is a net migration per year of about 150,000 people out of the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn boroughs of New York City. Many are moving into eastern Pennsylvania, where the housing is cheaper and the schools are better.

[HockeyMom]

94. Hearing that too about Pa.

Woman I work with is in her 30s. Her husband has just finished his internship (MD) and they are looking to move to Pa. My daughter's partner's parents are selling there house on Long Island and want to retire to Pa. too. They showed me an ad for a 3 bedroom house with half an acre, brand new, starting at $175,000. Sorry, I forget where in Pa. This has to be one of the new "hot" areas for New Yorkers, along with Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. I have known a number of people who have moved to these places. Florida seems to be less so these days. Getting to be just as expensive as here.

[hedgehog]

95. What's sad is seeing small cities being abandoned

New York is full of small cities with a downtown, good library, good schools, good housing at a fair price etc but people are leaving because the jobs are gone. I live here and I've been commuting 25 miles each way into the next county for the past 10 years because so many small businesses have shut down in my own county. I can understand commuting in to a warehouse or factory, but why are so many people still commuting in to an office every day? Why do all the offices have to be 30 miles from where people live?

[oscar111]

96. FL, AZ, NV? Hurrucanes, Global warming.

bad choices for sure. Dont folks think for themselves?

maybe thats the only places for jobs tho. Sad.

[Critters2]

115. No, people don't think for themselves

That's the problem

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

107. Just in time for another Dust Bowl.

nt

[Blue_Tires]

108. i'm looking to move out into (more) open space as well

i've never been one to like huge population densities, standstill traffic, and no where to park....the population of my hometown, Virginia Beach, has probably risen 50 percent in the last 15 years, and i don't even recognize the place anymore....

ironically, i really loved living in Kansas while i was there...but by the time i can afford to move out that way, it will already have been 'discovered' and the population increased 10-fold

[Critters2]

116. Kansas, Iowa, and other liveable places are actually losing

population. Or growing MUCH more slowly than in sprawl areas.

[Blue_Tires]

118. two of the places i'm familiar with

Lawrence, KS and Lincoln, NE are skyrocketing up

[Critters2]

119. Those are still larger cities than I want to live in

The areas where I hope to go will almost always have plenty of room. Happily.

[Blue_Tires]

120. my thoughts exactly

[JVS]

121. Are they moving to smaller cities or just out to the boonies?

[freestyle]

124. Actually the decline in city populations has slowed greatly.

City population loss is not nearly what it was in the 1990's, and many neighborhoods within cities are undergoing significant redevelopment. I'll take my city house and my ten minute car commute, or walk or bike ride if I feel like it, any day. I'll also take the option of easily having a variety of entertainment and food options that don't involve a 20 screen megaplex and an Olive Garden.

Also, is a house really affordable if it is so big that staying comfortable is hugely expensive and so far that you spend hours of time and loads of money on the road? Surely, cities have issues, but they also have efficiencies and a a vitality that can't be discounted.

[DetroitProle]

126. this has been going on in Detroit for oh 35 years

one good sign though...HUGE development in condos and lofts, compared to the 80's and 90's. Some people are learning. No stupid sod lawn to cut, walk everywhere, real entertainment, real community. I think the trend will reverse sooner or later.

[womanofthehills]

128. I moved to a rural area for clean air

I love it. Because it's in the NM high desert you can only have one house and one well on 40 acres.
All of a sudden, big developers come in turning old ranches around me into gated communities.
For over a yr now, my neighbors and I have had a monthly pot luck going from person's to person's house.
Three meetings ago there were about 10 new people at one meeting and the last meeting there were go many new people, they outnumbered us. It was kind of depressing. They are moving into my little rural town by hoards.

[symbolman]

135. We moved to Hawaii two year ago

and I'm happy as a clam, if I need to go to LA for some Creative deal then it's a 5 hour flight, read a book, watch a movie and BOOM you're in the land of MONEY, THEN, you get back on the plane and head for home where a neighbor picks you up and it's 9 miles to your house at 45 miles per hour, driving past volcanoes, luscious green everywhere, blue blue ocean to swim in every day with Whales showing up for the winter..

the people here laugh a lot, except for the white ones who are always freaked or worried about why people laugh so much.. nice and simple, sold a condo in Cal and bought a big house here, rent out the cabin in the back and the downstairs and the mortgage is paid that way..

All you have to do to commute is open up your laptop and look for gigs.. doesn't matter where you live now if you're online, and we get to spend all day with our little son, no daycare, walks, parks, luaus, all races so there's basically no racism, well, if you are white you are not in the majority, but I don't think of myself as "white" anyway, more like a HUMAN BEING, like all the rest of my pals here..

want food, go fish, tomatoes grow wild in our yard along with bannanas, papyas, flowers everywhere, the smell of Hawaii is one of the things I love the most, swim with turtles, give the finger to tourists, unless you want their money, and all is well..

It really IS paradise, and on my little island it's doubtful that terrorists are going to blow the shit out of us, for one thing the repigs won't let resort areas get blowed up, bad for right wing business.

The sunsets are mindblowing, the weather is strange and beautiful.. screw cities, I got sick of pollution, traffic, mexicans and people who hate them in California, or use them as slaves.

I see no reason to return to the mainland and if you live here of course ALL your relatives want to visit so you can keep in touch easily.

Keep the Mainland, the snow, the pollution, traffic, commuting, stinking buses, street people, yuppie goons.. my son got his first pair of shoes at age 15 months, we joked about him being like a Hillbilly, barefoot for so long, personally I don't LIKE to wear shoes myself, and I can dress anyway I want here, no one cares how freaky you want to look, or not..

Live and let live, and remember that the word "Aloha" doesn't just mean "hello" or "goodbye", it literally means, "The breath of God", a very spiritual place on one hand and totally honest on the other.. if someone wants to kick you ass, they tell you, I appreciate that kind of honesty, at least you have something to work with :)

C'Mon in the water's FINE, very fine, like a huge aquarium.. Don't miss my boyhood state of Illinois at all, don't want to be the 45 year old guy they find dead in the driveway when he went out to shovel it so he could scrape the windshield and drive 90 miles to a job he hates.

Aloha my friends, come feel the spirit :)

[DuaneBidoux]

138. THIS IS BULLSHIT

More people "moving out than moving in fails to capture even a part of the story. In LA 1 person more might move out than moves in but with the population being mainly Hispanic and Black there are none of these 1.1 kid families. There are families with 3, 4, 5, and more kids.

If they look at percentages that is true. For example they'll give some little city in Arkansas and they say it is growing by 40% per year. And then LA is growing by only 9% a year but that 9% in absolute terms is 20 times the size of the entire population of that little town compared to LA for a single year. At that rate the little town in Arkansas will catch up in about 3030. This is a misunderstanding of statistics.