America's rags-to-riches dream an illusion: study

[deadparrot]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - America may still think of itself as the land of opportunity, but the chances of living a rags-to-riches life are a lot lower than elsewhere in the world, according to a new study published on Wednesday.

The likelihood that a child born into a poor family will make it into the top five percent is just one percent, according to "Understanding Mobility in America," a study by economist Tom Hertz from American University.

By contrast, a child born rich had a 22 percent chance of being rich as an adult, he said.

"In other words, the chances of getting rich are about 20 times higher if you are born rich than if you are born in a low-income family," he told an audience at the Center for American Progress, a liberal think-tank sponsoring the work.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2628&ncid=2628&e=13&u=/nm/20060426/us_nm/economy_mobility_dc

[Captain Hilts]

1. Republicans really buy into "if you work hard, you'll make it" stuff.

It helps to come from a wealthy family.

[haele]

9. Having a wealthy family or having wealthy friends -

Wealth is determined too often by lucky associations and "good timing" to be considered something that can happen if someone "just works hard enough".

In today's "US and World" economy, one severe accident or illness, one unlucky choice, one social gaff (don't impress or otherwise piss off the wrong person) - and you and yours become stuck on the verge of poverty for the rest of your life. No matter how hard you work to "pull yourself up". Most people are too scared to be that honest enough to admit that truth to themselves.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Haele

[dmr]

32. So very true

In today's "US and World" economy, one severe accident or illness, one unlucky choice, one social gaff (don't impress or otherwise piss off the wrong person) - and you and yours become stuck on the verge of poverty for the rest of your life. No matter how hard you work to "pull yourself up". Most people are too scared to be that honest enough to admit that truth to themselves.

So many people are only a paycheck away from a downward spiral. The 'dream' is nice, it gives hope, I guess, but that's really about all you get. Sadly, people vote against their own self interests and preservation.

[barb162]

36. My friend the tax attorney always says. "there but for the grace

of God go I" when she speaks of the poor. The one severe illness or accident can put a person on the downward slide; it happened to her brother

[Megahurtz]

61. 'Aint THAT the Truth! n/t

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

75. Current White House occupant is a prime example. Dude has not

accomplished anything of note that is positive despite all advantages.

He's where he is simply because of family name and connections, and smarmy operators cashing in on those facts to get him there.

[WhiteTara]

14. and they believed "Bonanza" was real

and that women wore pearls while cleaning the house like June Cleaver.

[saigon68]

56. if you work hard, you'll make it

That's what this Brain dead NITWIT did

[Zhade]

66. REPUBLICANS? Try "Americans".

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many people, even HERE, think this is the greatest country on earth - despite our actual place on, say, the list of freedoms, or economic opportunity, or...

I hate to say it, but it sadly bears repeating: it's not just conservatives who are blinded by jingoistic self-delusion in the United States.

[redqueen]

79. Amen.

Can you say DLC?

[Zhade]

83. I would, but I JUST brushed my teeth.

:D

[redqueen]

84. hahahah

*loves*

[noonwitch]

76. It also has come true for some, like my grandpa

My grandpa is 92, he came here from Europe after WWI. He was dirt poor and they came to the US looking for a better life, than in their village, which had been taken from Austria and given to Italy after the war. It seems the italians weren't very nice to the german-speaking residents after the takeover.

My grandpa was 11 at the time. After their quarantine at Ellis Island was over, the family moved to Detroit to get jobs and education. My grandpa was enrolled in the Detroit schools, where he learned english quickly. He dropped out of school at 16 because it was the depression and he had to work. He knocked Grandma up when he was 19, and married her and went to work at 3 jobs at one point to support his family.
When the military build-up preceeding WWII started, he got in at Ford and worked his way eventually into the engineering program, even though he didn't have the formal education needed. He got there because he had mechanical talent and he worked hard.

He made money through the job at Ford, inventing features on cars, and troubleshooting problems. He also made contacts, and when he invented his wrench, he got a patent and made a good amount of money, that still pays off in royalties, even though he has long since sold the patent.

Grandpa came here penniless at 11, and now owns two lots of some of the most valuable property in the state. He has money in the bank and was able to help my dad (his son-in-law) start his own business. My dad grew up poor, too, and has done well for himself.

It's not a total myth, because it is true for so many. They came here from poverty and built up a successful life. Of course that doesn't mean everyone is going to rise up from poverty to wealth, but it does happen, and not just to those with athletic talent.

[redqueen]

80. "so many" = 1%

Just sayin.

[Yupster]

88. But that's reaching the top 1 %

If a person was born in abject poverty and ended up in the top 15 % of all wage-earners, would that be so horrible?

Getting to the top 5 % from the very bottom seems an awfully high standard to try to meet.

[Waya]

2. Yep...

...the American ream turned Nightmare....:shrug:

[TexasLawyer]

3. And once we get rid of the "Death Tax", further gut student loans,

cause deterioration of the public schools, etc... the RW mission will be accomplished.

[Jim Warren]

77. Malcolm Forbes was once asked

by one in a group of soon-to-be graduated MBAs "what's the best piece of advice you can give to a someone entering the business world" and he replied: "PICK YOUR FATHER"

[Duer 157099]

4. Holy cow! Does that mean that

someone born rich has an 80% chance of being poor as an adult???

I'd have thought that number (22%) would have been closer to 80-90%. Do these kids not inherit, or do they squander, or.. ?

[pitohui]

8. it means they become middle class

rich adults don't die in their 40s, 50s, and 60s like poor adults or even like many middle class adults

therefore the child born rich, even w. daddy's connections to get a job, likely doesn't inherit until he's almost 70 and his parents die at age 90 or even older

so even the rich kid doesn't have the same opportunity to live a lifetime of being rich as he once did, since the dirty truth is that most rich people inherit their money, you don't earn millions or billions honestly

(and don't say bill gates, even if you think being a monopolist is honest, which i don't, one counter-example is not sufficient to wipe out what happens 99 times out of 100)

my observations anyway, i'm not a statistician

[SlavesandBulldozers]

12. not even 99 out of 100 in Gates' case. he'd literally be one in 7billion.

or whatever the pop of the planet is now.

It's a common right-wing tactic though to take the exception and make it into the rule. You probably already know this.

When talking with right-wingers, I always make sure to mention it to them when they do this, rather than follow them down the illogic of their argument. When you point it out they get really pissed and accuse you of reading too much. It's fucking hilarious.

[barb162]

37. Gates' dad the patent attorney helped him out immensely with

IBM when young Billy Boy was getting started. Daddy wrote the IBM contracts.

[Julius Civitatus]

53. Mr. Gates Senior was also an entrepreneur with his own company

Bill Gates was born into riches already. He definitely had a leg up.

The cool thing about Mr. Gates Senior is taht he is a strong beleiver on social justice, the need for a social safety net, and the importance of taxes. His views are refreshing as compared to so many greedy bastards in the business world.

[Warpy]

15. No, it means he'll stay the same

or decline into the upper upper middle class. He'd have to work awfully hard at being a wastrel to become poor. The rich have financial advisors who have a lot of power to tie up funds while they try to get a ne'er do well rich kid into rehab or whatever, a layer of protection the rest of us do not enjoy.

The Nation had an article about this a year or so ago, "The Death of Horatio Alger." The rags to riches myth (which was a reality while the New Deal protections were in place)is one of the most destructive we have now, encouraging anyone who remains in the class he was born into to blame himself for his lack of success.

However, success depends not only on inherited money but on inherited family connections. Even if a rich kid is ordered to start at the bottom and work his way up, the bottom is a hell of a lot higher than it is for you and me. If he decides to start a business of his own, he has plenty of relatives and family friends to tap for seed money---and he'll get it.

The rich climbed that ladder to success a long time ago. They not only pulled the ladder up after them, they've now nailed the trapdoor shut, so anyone who builds a ladder won't be able to follow.

It's just the logical result of the class warfare by the rich against everybody else over the past 44 years.

[pitohui]

28. actually financial advisors sometimes steal

there is definitely an issue of downward mobility because of shrinkage

they particularly prey on older women but i know a man in his 20s who had his inheritance stolen by a financial advisor, eventually a warrant for the advisor's arrest was issued and the advisor committed suicide but the young man didn't get his cash back

it is still easy for this man to maintain a middle class lifestyle because of his connections throwing him a little business his way but if a regular person was this useless and unskilled they'd be on skid row honestly

[Warpy]

41. Yeah, one made 1/3 of an uncle's estate disappear, too.

That one's grinding through the courts, same deal, saw how nuts the family is and thought he'd make a killing.

You have to watch these guys VERY carefully.

[Igel]

25. No, because the article focuses on extremes, and

ignores what's likely to be the main import of the article given what Hertz's written about before. Only 32% of poor whites born poor stay poor, but 63% of blacks born poor stay poor.

He also looks at South Africa, same kind of race-related research.

"Rich" in the US is something to brag about; the top 5% of Americans do very well, by global standards. The top 5% of, I don't know, Argentinians probably don't do as well.

Haven't found the study, it must be in a journal-on-dead-tree. I'll look later.

His vitae is http://nw08.american.edu/~hertz/Hertz%20CV%20-Sept%2005.pdf,
related work from 2003 is http://nw08.american.edu/~hertz/HERTZ%20Rags%20Riches%20and%20Race%20April%202003.pdf.

[Yupster]

89. The problem with inheritances is

that very wealthy people get the very best healthcare and live very long lives.

They may indeed inherit the money when mom dies at age 93. But by then they're 66 and it doesn't do all that good at that point. By then they've either made it or not.

[bleedingheart]

92. yes it does....and many do squander their money...

[cassiepriam]

5. This is the fantasy the repugs sell, part of the propaganda,

and the American people buy into it.

[barb162]

38. The American Dream is essentially "no more"

as real wages shrink, credit card debt rises and the savings rate is the lowest in 73 years.

[cassiepriam]

49. That's is the stupidity, many voted dreaming they would be rich

like the repugs and instead they are going to be poor, very poor.

[raccoon]

54. Oh, but don't you know there's always the LOTTERY!

:sarcasm:

I voted against it in my state. I think it gives people false hopes.

[Blue_Tires]

65. yeah, the lottery is a sucker's game

[Zhade]

67. When was there ever a real American Dream?

Arguably, the best time economically for the U.S. was in the fifties - you know, when women and blacks couldn't vote, etc.

[amandabeech]

86. Women got the vote nationally in the early 1920s.

Blacks could vote in at least some places, particularly in the North and West in the 1950s and earlier.

A greater problem in the 1950s for women and to a certain extent for blacks outside the house was discrimination in higher education and the workplace.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964, pushed through Congress by President Lyndon Johnson, eliminated discrimination in the workplace, public accommodation and education.

The Voting Rights Act of 1965, also pushed through Congress by Johnson, eliminated all barriers to the voting booth and assured representation in the state legislatures and the House of Representatives for minorities who had been the previous victims of discrimination.

[Yupster]

91. I guess everyone has their own definition

of what American Dream means to them.

The survey in this OP is about poor people rising to the top 5 % of wealth in their lifetimes.

Is being in the top 5 % of wealth the American Dream?

That's never what I thought.

I always thought of American Dream as having a nice middle cless life. Was I aiming too low?

[pitohui]

6. wow what was their first clue

talk abt captain obvious

there is no hope of upward mobility for most of us, none, it is just a sales pitch to sell overpriced college and postgrad tuitions that end up being pretty worthless for a large percentage of people w. the "wrong" background

[leftchick]

7. no shit

and someone paid for this study? :eyes:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

16. wealth as a result of hard work is a great bit of americana.

sure it sells college loans and all that, but its real utility as a myth comes from it being such a powerful lullaby to the blue-collar, less-educated, workers.

it's a basic twist on the promise of heaven. the promise of heaven on Earth, "just toil a tad more for us who have it now. . .one day. . . you'll get yours. . . and if you don't you weren't working hard enough all this time or God doesn't like you. Sorry, oh, and thanks for being a good consumer all these years, send more money. Check your local listings for American Idol."

[newswolf56]

10. You'll never read this in corporate media, but here is absolute proof...

that Marx is more relevant now than ever: especially the historical truth of class struggle, which was first articulated by Marx.

_________
Edit: dropped word.

[DBoon]

11. There was a study about a year ago comparing countries

for upwards mobility and the USA came in dead last when compared to Europe, CA, and AU.

[Fenris]

18. As the income disparity gap increases

Your chance of jumping from one side to the other significantly decreases (the exception being of course if you are wealthy and manage to lose your money). Wealth concentration has the odious consequence of making the upper class virtually impenetrable for most.

[DBoon]

51. from what I recall...

the conclusions were that racism and the absence of a publicly supported safety net (including education) had a lot to do with the US' poor rate of upward mobility

[toymachines]

31. curious what CA stands for

all I can think of is california. just wondering.

[Book Lover]

34. Canada (nm)

[NMDemDist2]

35. Canada is my guess n/t

[DBoon]

44. yes!

wish I could cite the study. I think it was noted in the UK Guardian.

[MisterP]

64. I think we're between Brazil and Mexico

[frankenforpres]

13. it is still possible

i was pretty poor (afdc), and next year ill graduate with my ph D in econ. i paid for myself to go to undergrad. my pals who graduate this year are making between $70K and $90K for nine months(and this isnt even the big bucks i.e. private sector).


i must divulge that school was always pretty easy for me, so my story might be rare.

[haele]

23. Luck.

You amongst all the other pretty poor on afdc or other such programs who managed to find one of the few magic easter-eggs available. It wasn't just hard work; you obviously managed to impress the right person.

I know this because even as my current position is not as good as I want it to be, over the years, as well as working hard, I've managed to impress the right people (by not having a social life and dedicating my life to work early on) along the way and have finally been very, very lucky to be employed at one of the few companies that actually gives almost half a shit about employees and one of the even fewer mid-upper level managers in my field who actually wants to be a mentor instead of just doing and/or keeping his job.

Too many of my co-workers - equally hard working, equally motivated, equally personable - are still stuck in the almost middle class blue collar arena, destined pretty much to end their lives living only on SSI and whatever military pension might be left when it's time to retire. I was lucky, and managed to maneuver, manipulate, and otherwise claw my way into a couple of the very few positions along the way that let me seem to rise above the others. Any miss-step, if I pissed anyone off, if I didn't "hide the bodies" sufficiently, and I would be back on the docks amongst the many other workers-bees who are expendable to companies and corporations, attempting to get ahead while working and taking care of my family at the same time.

After my work injury three years ago - for a while, it was very touch or go whether or not I'd have to make plans to move my family in with one set of our folks and struggle to start out on a new career path. One that, chances are, would not have included health care due to a disabled spouse. And if I were lucky enough to get a job that makes 70K a year, that still would not have been able to cover our medical costs if we would have been able to get our own insurance.

Save part of your salary - or invest as wisely as you can. Don't fritter away what you're making now with lots of toys, fun and luxuries "just because you can".
Take it from me; not too far off in the future, chances are that something will come up and you'll need all your salary and savings, your "investment" just to keep going.

Haele

[Iowa]

46. Good post by haele...

Especially this part:

"Save part of your salary - or invest as wisely as you can. Don't fritter away what you're making now with lots of toys, fun and luxuries "just because you can". Take it from me; not too far off in the future, chances are that something will come up and you'll need all your salary and savings, your "investment" just to keep going."

I did what haele suggests. And I was lucky... no disabilities, no divorces, no job loss, no ______ (fill in the blank with all the things that can go wrong). If you're lucky, like I was, you may end up with enough assets to retire early and cover your basic living expenses for the rest of your life. If you aren't lucky, socking away as much as you can may just save you from a lifetime of poverty. Most of my career was spent working with people who are down and out, with people at the bottom of the economic ladder. These were people just like you and me - most were smart, many were educated, almost all were motivated and hard working... Trust me; poverty isn't pretty. It is a continual hassle. It can be demeaning. It is a constant worry. It is depressing. It is painful. It can isolate you. It can destroy relationships. Do whatever you can to stay afloat. And one thing you can do is become committed to the idea of spending less than you earn, if it is at all possible for you to do so.

Now let's put the whole matter into perspective. Go to the link below, input your income, and see where you stand relative to the rest of the world. Do you think you must spend every penny you earn? Perhaps. But before you decide, input your annual income into this calculator, and then think again. Most of us can save far more than we're saving. You'll never regret it.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

[shrike]

50. Don't I know it

I was born to the right man and married the right man.

The former busted his butt to make sure I had an inheritance when he died. And the latter invested well in property that I now co-own, and draws a (very safe -- yay, unions!) which I will inherit (or half of it, rather) when he dies. Ergo, I am an independent woman who owes it all to the men in her life.

And I thank Lady Luck every day.

[raccoon]

87. Great post. As you've pointed out, just being

"hard working, motivated, and personable " isn't enough--some people were and worked their butts off and still didn't "rise."

"Any miss-step, if I pissed anyone off, if I didn't "hide the bodies" sufficiently"

ONE misstep is too much, unfortunately.

It does take some luck, no question about it.

[lovuian]

17. What we have is the haves and the have nots

Back to the Dickens days!!!

:argh:

[Orangepeel]

19. well, duh

rags to riches stories have always been rare and no sane person ever believed that all Americans have an equal chance to become rich.

But there is opportunity for upward mobility in the US. Is there enough? No. Is it more or less than other countries? Beats me.

[AllieB]

71. It used to be more than other countries

now I'm willing to bet it's less than other comparable nations.

[Snow]

20. Hence the lotteries,

the casinos, and class-action lawsuits - or torts of any kind, come to that. And I suppose real estate flipping. There's not major rebellion because there's the sense that however poor, up to a point, you can make it big and easy by one of those routes.

[Jamison]

30. That's about right.

Winning the powerball lottery is about the only way any average Joe can retire as a multi-millionaire. I even buy a few tickets here and there, but I realize that I have better chances of being the next American Idol winner than winning powerball. :rofl:

[superconnected]

73. perhaps reading financial books will show you that

winning the lottery is less likely than even being on american idol.

Starting a business/learning real investment strategedys/holding patents etc. are all ways to become a millionaire and far more people succeed that way, over winning the powerball.

Powerball is the least likely way to get you there because of the odds. I believe Motley Fools first book explained the statistics of Lotto.

The millionaire next door, market wizards are excellent books you should check out. (and basically any financial book orman, kiosaki, the latte factor guy - forgot his name, and eidleman, _DIDN'T_ write, repeat DID NOT write, should help you). (If you do buy orman etcs books, good luck. They are jokes in the financial world and orman works for creditcard companies.)

Tobias' The only investment guide you'll ever need is also good, and he's not a scam. Don't even think that's the only investment guide you'll ever need though.

[baldguy]

21. "But all those Yew-ropeen countries are fuckin' COMMIES!"

[Finder]

22. It is not an illusion..many succeed...

though getting "rich" is not their goal. I do state many(and not all) because there are segments of society that are definitely being oppressed or at least blocked from taking the opportunity.

I still believe in the dream. I do not believe the "dream" is to be at the top 5 percent or whatever strawman figure is set up in that study.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

24. I am glad you do.

I don't. I know all to well what has happened in this country during my lifetine. I live it every day.

This country has become a cruel joke that works very hard to institutionalize, at the very least, vastly diminsished circumstances, if not poverty. It works to indemnify and grow wealth for the already wealthy. It works to oppress the majority of its citizens.

[woo me with science]

62. Agree, I would be more interested to know

what the rates are for climbing from poverty to the middle class, and how the US compares on that basis.

[Zhade]

68. That's a good point.

For a lot of us, success isn't measured in things we own or the money in the bank.

[llmart]

26. Believe it or not......

there are many people in America who really don't set their sites on becoming extremely wealthy and call that the "American dream". I, for one, have never wished to have a shitload of money. I came from a relatively poor family and all I ever wanted was to be "comfortable" and content which I define as having enough to never have to worry about a roof over my head or food in my stomach and access to medical care if/when I need it, plus maybe a little left over for a treat now and then.

I can honestly say that I don't care about amassing "stuff" or big, fancy cars or a bigger house.

The term "American dream" does not necessarily mean extreme wealth.

[pitohui]

27. priced health care lately?

cancer is six figures

it is no longer enough to be content to do a small job well, w.out access to a job that provides top notch health care you eventually lose everything financially

i don't give a damn abt a widescreen teevee, i give a damn that i'm afraid to go to the doctor

many of the people i know dream of wealth only because you need huge wealth just to pay off medical bills and to dream of having or keeping your home

nobody here cares whether or not they go skiing in gstaad

[raccoon]

59. Nowadays, there's fewer and fewer Americans who have enough

according to your definition.

"I define as having enough to never have to worry about a roof over my head or food in my stomach and access to medical care if/when I need it, plus maybe a little left over for a treat now and then. "

Especially the part about the medical care.

[ReadTomPaine]

29. USA's number one indicator of future wealth and success is Dad's job.

It's true. Look it up.

[barb162]

40. I think this is a perfectl;y good indicator because if dad's money

and influence can get a kid into a "good" school, the person basically has it made unless he or she is a total screwup.

[ReadTomPaine]

42. They have it made even if they do screw-up.

Here's the proof:

[barb162]

45. You know, I was thinking of HIM the entire time I wrote that post!

He screwed up numerous times and dad's money and those big connections kept bailing him out. If he had come from a lower middle class background, he'd be lucky to have ever made it through junior college.

[raccoon]

60. If he'd come from that sort of background, he'd be lucky not to be

in jail.

[H3Dakota]

74. DADs job?

Shouldn't that actually be the "bread winner of the family", not DAD? It is important to note that Moms can be more wealthy & more successful than Dads.

[ReadTomPaine]

78. Yes, the father's job is the primary indicator.

Not the mother's. This is a direct reflection of the systemic sexism that women face on all levels. A powerful woman doesn't have the reach of a powerful man, and there aren't nearly as many woman as there are men in those positions of influence and wealth.

Exclusion from these insider circles makes it much harder for women to pull strings at graduate schools, in business, government and certainly the military. The farther up the power ladder you go, the worse it gets.

[Yupster]

90. Having a dad at all

is probably high on the list of indicators too.

[leesa]

33. Well, DUH.

[Blue_Tires]

39. NOW THEY TELL ME

lol....I've only come to the hardcore realization within the past few years of sporadic unemployment, and deepening debt (I'm almost 30)...

And yet, for such a long part of my life, i thought my plans on getting filthy rich and famous and retiring by age 35 would be so simple to put in place...the more kids that find out about this hard truth early on, the better, imo

[bullwinkle428]

43. Of course, 20 out of 20 Freepers with money claim they came from

impoverished backgrounds!

[Bitter Cup]

57. And every person in the US needs to subtract from their income

their portion of the national debt before they start talking about solvency. Because that pigeon is coming home to roost soon too. We're a nation that is 90% bankrupt. The remaining 10% are dancing on our future graves. And I'm one of the lucky ones with a graduate degree and a job. But I look ahead and I see myself sitting in the rubble along with everyone else.

[komuckway]

47. It's about the opportunity

It's about the opportunity.
It does happen.
It has in my family.
Twice.
From poor immigrants to the next generation making it quite big.

There are no guarantees, but it can happen and that's the important thing.
It usually takes a generation or three, but it can happen.

Ever wonder why the Chinese are so successful here?
The stand on the shoulders of the last generation.

I don't know that the opportunity is better anywhere else.

www.timbro.com

[Blue_Tires]

63. welcome to the site!

[Finder]

70. Agree...

but unfortunately, most people today want everything instantaneous.

[shrike]

85. It's also about the luck

One illness, one injury, one bankruptcy, one catastrophe . . .

Read "The Working Poor," which tells, among others, the story of hard-working Koreans who were devastated by the wife's back injury. (She fell while carrying a heavy tray in their restaurant.)

I'm not saying it can't happen, but the odds are tremendous, especially if one has no connections, and the lack of a social safety net can be devastating. Which is the one thing, sorry to say, that other countries have over us.

[Up2Late]

48. OH! Now they tell me!

So, what "the pResident" has been saying is ALL BS? :shrug: :grr:

[Julius Civitatus]

52. Welcome to Bush´s America: good for the already rich and privileged...

...not so nice if you are poor.

This is the most tragic legacy of the Bush administration: bringing back the era of the robber barons, and basically turning everyone else into serfs of MBNA.

Very sad indeed.

[kineneb]

55. time for new work philosophy

courtesy of that other empire, the Soviet one...

"I pretend to work, and they pretend to pay me."
Screw company loyalty.
Have fun, you ain't gonna get rich, so you may as well have a good time.
(Is that why the Bushies hate the French so...the prols there already figured it out. Glass of red wine?)

[Julius Civitatus]

58. Amen, brother

:-)

[Neoma]

69. Figures.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solly Mack]

81. NSS

DUH

[Tight_rope]

82. I've always said that the true American Dream is to be in "DEBT"!

And just recently I was proven right. Just 2 weeks ago I went to buy a new car. Not buying anything on credit in 2 years really hurt my score. The last thing I bought on credit was my last car, which I still own (It was a 1996 Mazda 626...bought at the end of 1998...paid off in 2004). Man I thought I would show them. In 1999, my new motto took on the Clinton belief.."Pay as you go". I wasn't buying shit from anyone on credit. I would pay with cash or I wouldn't buy it at all. I took trips to NY, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orlands, Hawaii and many other places. All on my hard earned cash (I just love my debit card). Man they socked it to me good for doing that shit. I could barely get anyone to finance a 2004 Honda Accord fully loaded with only 27,000 miles for just $18,400. And I was putting $3,000 down. Someone finally did but damn that interest rate. I will be refinancing in a year. Oh, and as for not buying on credit...Watch world...here I come...gonna make sure I leave more then $200,000.00 in debt on credit cards. No kids so no one in my family needs to worry. I already told them. When I die and they com'ma lookin for their money. Tell them I said, "They should have gotten their's when I was still breathing".:headbang:

[depakid]

93. Note how the AP article goes out of its way

to mention:

a liberal think-tank sponsoring the work.

The biggest enemy the American people have is their unregualted corporate media. And the sooner we clue into that, the sooner we'll be able to start passing rational and responsible reforms.

[RedStateShame]

94. And Horatio Algier

had a thing for boys.

[cassiepriam]

95. Another piece of Repug propaganda found to be false.