NYT/Reuters: Many US Women Abused by Men, Study Finds

[DeepModem Mom]

Many US Women Abused by Men, Study Finds
By REUTERS
Published: May 17, 2006

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More than 40 percent of women surveyed in the Seattle area reported they had been physically or psychologically abused by their husbands, dates or boyfriends, researchers said on Wednesday.

And a second study showed that women who have been slapped, kicked or otherwise abused were four times more likely to report severe depressive symptoms and three times more likely to report fair or poor health.

The researchers, who say their study is a snapshot but suggests a national trend, were surprised at the numbers.

"This is an epidemic,'' said Dr. Robert Thompson of the Seattle-based Group Health Center for Health Studies, who led one study....

***

The studies, funded by the U.S. federal Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, mesh with previous estimates that show anywhere between 25 to 50 percent of women may have experienced abuse....

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-abuse.html

[gaspee]

1. This is news?

Of course you'll have people say that "women exagerate"

Or you'll have some other apologist say that women "make false accusations."

But to women, this will come as no surprise.

[ThomCat]

7. It's not news. At least, not to anyone who pays attention.

Unfortunately, you're right. We will probably see the excuses and evasions. Even here at DU.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demeter]

101. The News Is That In the Future, The Govt. Will Abuse 100% of Women

Between the erosion of civil liberties and the crashing of the economy, physical abuse will be redundant.

[redqueen]

135. No kidding!

That the researchers were surprised... now *that's* suprising.

[lumberjack_jeff]

141. It's very believable. Look at the details

44% of women report having been abused either physically or verbally by husbands, boyfriends or dates.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/270374_abuse16.html

"Researchers from Group Health Cooperative's Center for Health Studies randomly surveyed about 3,500 women who had been with the health maintenance organization for at least three years. All were between 18 and 64. Most were educated, employed and insured.

About 44 percent of the women in the study said they'd been physically, psychologically or sexually assaulted by a partner in their lifetimes. That's consistent with previous estimates, but the women who participated in this study were more mainstream than those often considered most at risk for domestic violence, said Dr. Robert Thompson, senior investigator at the Center for Health Studies and lead author of one of the studies."

I find it easy to believe that 44% of women enrolled in Group Health have been "psychologically assaulted" by a man at some point in their lives.

It would have been interesting to see a breakdown on the frequency and type of abuse. My suspicion is that a minority of the 44% would report physical assault, and a miniorty of that group would report the kind of ongoing violence that is implied by the term "abused".

This is a poorly constructed survey. It's arguable that survey accepts feeling insulted by a date who asks about taking that second helping of pie as "abuse".

Constructing a survey to get the most outrageous-sounding and attention-grabbing results does the very real problem a disservice.

[Mandate My Ass]

148. Seems valid to me

This wasn't even the highest risk population. It's going into a peer-reviewed medical journal which means their methodology must be sound.

See post 150 for what constitutes psychological abuse, and no, it's not asking for a second helping of pie. :eyes:

[Dora]

2. I completely believe this. 100%.

I give thanks that I'm not one of those women.

But more than once I've seen a man strike or manhandle a woman - in public. My husband has three times called the police after seeing a man strike or shove a woman - in public.

I know not all men hate women. But I wish that men who don't hate women would step up to the plate and do something to stop those men who do.

Please, brothers. Your sisters are crying for help and we are dying at the hands of your peers. We cannot defend ourselves alone.

[bunyip]

93. I hear you, Dora

My husband has three times called the police after seeing a man strike or shove a woman - in public.

Your husband is a good man! :cheers:

More men need be willing to 'get involved' when we see domestic violence. Women can help us by encouraging their sisters not to close ranks with the abuser.

A couple of years ago, walking back to our car after a movie, my then GF & I saw a well-dressed man in his late fifties beating his female partner - she was lying on the ground and he was really sticking the boots in.

My GF started scolding me "Don't do anything stupid, don't get involved, it's none of our business, you'll get hurt...". I told her to wait, walked to about 10 meters from the couple and called, perhaps menacingly, "Is everything okay"? He abruptly deflated to the 5'2" timid excuse for a man he really was and stuttered something, while is female partner staggered up and, glaring malevolently at me, took up a defensive position beside and slightly in front of her partner, her body language indicating she and her partner were a 100% united front.

I was 100% expecting this (I was working as a crisis counselor in those days), but many of my copper friends are shocked and demoralized when they are spat upon and verballed by domestic violence victims who, of course, refuse to make a complaint.

There are psychological reasons some victims are dependent on their abusers, and some poor/minority women don't know any better, but far too many middle-class, tertiary-educated, liberal women lust after a red-blooded caveman who can dominate them. During one memorable D&M one of my female friends told me frankly that she only dates "assholes" because they are the only men she respects (comparing them favorably to her gentle, hen-pecked father). Another female friend (and my sister) are exactly the same, just less honest about their reasons.

The police, and male passersby, can and must do more, but we need allies "on the inside" to change the culture of how women view physical/emotional abuse and the men who perpetrate it. That's where we need your help, sisters!

[wryter2000]

126. It's a matter of self-esteem

Unfortunately, we're still brought up to think we aren't whole without a man. Plus, there's the tendency to go for the he-man types glorified in the popular culture. Decent men get overlooked precisely because they're nice, and heaven help them if they're also shy.

We need to teach our girls that we deserve respect in every aspect of our lives and that the quiet, thoughtful boy is the right one for us. Then, the assholes wouldn't have anyone to beat.

[llmart]

152. Quiet and shy..........

men can also be abusers. Don't be fooled.

[Dora]

157. I agree. That's where it's important for us to teach the difference.

We have to teach kids to be able to tell the difference between "quiet and shy" and "withdrawn and antisocial."

But so many of us are hooked into the soma of television, debt, shopping, recreation, work, shopping, debt, television, and shopping, that I believe we've turned a generation or two of what could have been fine discerning American citizens into mindless drones who can't tell the difference between an abuser and an asshole.

It's not solely our fault, but we really have given up on raising our children. Instead of actively teaching them a sense of self and and personal values, we focus on keeping them fed and signed up for activities and going to school and passing their tests and getting the jobs and joining the debt-ridden. We ignore them and we medicate them and we deny them opportunity for play and self-driven time, and we wonder why they hate us. Why should they love us, when all they've gotten from us is presents, drugs, diagnoses, and arm's-length affection?

[llmart]

195. I agree wholeheartedly.........

I like to think (in fact I'm sure) that my children weren't raised that way. They're in their 30's now, but I always insisted on them not getting "stuff" or sitting and watching TV endlessly. I made them work if they wanted something and they didn't get allowances, though my husband and I could have well-afforded to give them lots of stuff. I didn't believe in allowances. My thought was they were part of a family and they enjoyed the fun things with us, so they had to contribute something also. Why would you pay your child to do their share around the house?

[Tight_rope]

123. I totally agree with you...Man who don't need to help stop those that do.

My boyfriend is not an abuser. However, he pisses me off when he ignores what is going on around him. He just won't rock the boat for anything. I on the other hand will push the boat over if I see someone getting hurt or abused.

[autorank]

134. Good point..Here's the basic research.

Murray Strauss is THE leading authority on physical violence in families - partner abuse, child physical abuse, etc. This link takes you to real world research. Strauss is an excellent researcher and has no ax to grind.

This answers a lot of questions for those who doubt the reality or consequences of domestic violence.

Link to extensive document ion of family violence
From University of New Hampshire Family Research Laboratory
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ipv.htm

[Fridays Child]

3. I can't believe that researchers "were surprised at the numbers."

I would have expected these, or higher, numbers.

[Mythsaje]

4. Gotta love those "alpha male" "bad boys."

:sarcasm: of course...

Fucking jerks.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

5. Women Also Prefer These Types Of Men

A woman would rather go for the tough macho guy, with the big muscles, than the intellectual "nice" mild mannered guy, who has a more passive nature.

Then they come back and say they never saw those tendencies, even though it's those same characteristics which attracted them in the first place.

[gaspee]

6. I'm glad

You can speak for women. Thanks.

[Mandate My Ass]

9. Which orifice did that post emanate from?

What a steaming load of crap.

She had it coming. It only took four posts for the first. You'll have company soon I'm sure. :eyes:

[dionysus]

78. I might have to climb into my asbestos suit here...

i have agree with OrangeCountyDemocrat in ways. In my personal experience, a lot, not MOST ,not ALL, but a LOT of women will put up with absolute terrible piece of shit asshole dudes. Most of the time nothing violent, but a lot of women will choose the typical asshole "alpha male" over nice guys (not exciting you see).

Most women on DU are super-smart, don't fall into this category, but then get pissed if you mention this, not realizing it happens to women not as wise or self-confident as they are.

on edit
This is not saying in any way someone deserves, or "asked for" bad stuff... just thet I have seen it happen and it's very saddening.

[raccoon]

110. SOME women do,

"but a LOT of women will put up with absolute terrible piece of shit asshole dudes."

Most of the time those women came from a severely dysfunctional family.

So what's the reason for them getting into relationships with these assholes, and putting up with them?

"We are comfortable with the familiar, even if it is painful."

A counselor told me that once.

[CrispyQ]

170. Sadly, there seems to be a mutual attraction.

The types of women that tolerate abuse are attracted to & attract the type of men who abuse & conversely, men who abuse are attracted to women who tolerate their abuse.

Interesting comment by that counselor. Probably all too true. Old habits die hard & all that.

[Mandate My Ass]

124. no asbestos needed

thank you for your response.

There are women who do this, I agree. My response was perhaps more terse than it needed to be because the individual I responded to complained that all women prefer these men.

I don't want to be lumped into that category, and yes, the sentiment expressed in his thread strongly implies that when the inevitable happens, it's the victims' fault.

[redqueen]

139. These words protect you from flameage:

"In my personal experience, a lot, not MOST ,not ALL, but a LOT of women "

Take into account the macho-worshipping culture we live in, and hey presto! :think:

[BrklynLiberal]

168. That would only happen due to the abuse they saw their father heap

on their mother and them.
So it still goes back to the same origin:abuse of women.
Only women who have grown up with abuse would be willing to put up with it - or seek it out- in a partner as an adult.

[Triana]

15. Pls don't generalize too much...

I don't like those types and last I checked...

Look out for those intellectual type guys too. Some of those can be extremely mentally and emotionally abusive. I know a few of those. They're not chest-beaters or physical abusers but they are NASTY nonetheless. It's just too hard to generalize too much on abusive people. I've seen all kinds.

[Fridays Child]

40. There's the truth.

All types of men can be kind and gentle. All types can be abusive--mentally, physically, sexually. All types of men can be insecure. All types can have had violence and disrespectful attitudes toward women modeled for them as children.

The so-called intellectual type I was once married to held me emotionally hostage to his suicide threats. Then, I married my high school sweetheart, a guy of very average build and looks. He was extremely physically abusive.

Now, I'm married to a somewhat burly-looking, semi-driving Vietnam vet. And, in the more than twenty years we've been together, I have never seen him exhibit any behavior that could be even remotely equated with violence.

[Triana]

75. You can never tell by looks, occupation, or background

You never know until you really get to know them or live with or near them. If they behave badly, end it. Get away from them. I think women tolerate too much violence and abuse (granted they often don't have the means to escape but have to do what they can) and take too many apologies and too much blame for it. And other men shouldn't tolerate it either when they see men being violent or abusive toward women. It's just too much accepted, ignored, apologized for, and tolerated -- all the way to the very top of society and gov't.

[redqueen]

140. Amen! Smart hippies can be violently abusive, too! n/t

[LeighAnn]

16. "Mild-mannered guy" more likely to abuse, IMO

Just from my own experience, big tough guys seem to get enough gratification in being big macho men, but little mild-mannered mamma's boy "nice guys" who you would never suspect of hitting a woman can be wildly sadistic and abusive if given the opportunity.

On a different vein, I've seen a dozen or so Clark Gable movies over the past twelve months, I don't recollect a single one where he didn't either hit a woman or threaten to. Amazing to me that this was ever acceptable, I'm glad that at least now it's being called out as being wrong.

[sarcasmo]

24. Leigh Ann, glad you can speak for all mild- mannered Men.

[LeighAnn]

99. It's called the "Wally Cox Syndrome"

[raccoon]

111. IME, mild-mannered men can be passive-aggressive. nt

[LostinVA]

113. You got that right -- I have some in my family

[wryter2000]

128. I believe Rhett Butler took his wife against her will

Of course, true to Hollywood, she enjoyed it.

[Sapere aude]

26. My wife would disagree with you. She likes it that I can cry at movies

with her. As a matter of fact, I like it that she can be supportive of a , "intellectual "nice" mild mannered guy, who has a more passive nature" like me.

[tabasco]

27. Muscles have nothing to do with being an asshole.

It's the brain that's the problem.

[freeplessinseattle]

133. Well put. thank you. eom

[wicket]

28. Not this woman

Give me a scrawny computer geek over a beefcake ANY DAY.

[Maine-ah]

29. pfffftttt

[China_cat]

31. You know what?

The biggest majority of those who are abusers...and the worst abusers...aren't the tough macho guys. They're the 'intellectual, nice, mild mannered guys' who wouldn't say shit if they had a mouthful. In public. But behind closed doors, they'd easily qualify for Rummy's torture squad.

[Maine-ah]

44. ok, both of those generalizations are bad.

you can't just lump people together like that, and if you do, both of you need to site some form of study. Your comment is just as bad as post # 5. I know my hubbie would take some major offense to your comment, just as most of us women take offense to post #5 (sorry can't remember poster's name.)

[China_cat]

49. Live it

then get back to me.

[Maine-ah]

100. and don't assume some of us haven't lived it either.

I grew up in it.

[October]

117. You're right -- these generalizations are a problem here at DU

They post as if it's fact. Maybe it's their fact, but that doesn't speak to the entire population.

And the response was so condescending. "Live it, and then get back to me?" Talk about uncivilized. It's obvious by the thread's heading that a lot of women are indeed living it -- and they don't all date, marry or live with the same type of guy. It takes all kinds.

I'm so weary of these nasty retorts on DU. Where's the respect for one another?

[Kailassa]

85. I've known wimpy, well educated abusers. But also the reverse.

In my experience it's the wimpy looking guys who are more likely to show real courage and put themselves out to protect other people. Not the same ones though.

[LostinVA]

35. OH.MY.GOD -- this is 2006, right?

I really, really hope you just forgot the "sarcasm" sticky. If not...... you have some self-educating to do about who abuses (everyone) and what the women do to deserve it (not a frigging thing). Really. Go and talk to a domestic abuse counselor or detective, then come back and apologize to every abused women who read this post.

[bunyip]

98. O.C. Democrat could talk to me if he needed educating.

I know some detectives he could chat to as well.

We would tell O.C. Democrat he has nothing to apologise for.

Noone deserves abuse. O.C. Democrat never said they did, and his observation stands.

[LostinVA]

102. And, the cops I know would say he does need educating

And the friend who is a domestic abuse counselor would also say he needs educating...

[bunyip]

209. How about you let them speak for themselves.

I'm sure they don't agree with you on this.

Oh, and try to pay attention to what posters are actually saying.

Who knows, you might learn something.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

213. Thanks Bunyip

I was only stating my observation. Never intending any implication that I was condoning behavior, and trying to be all inclusive. I've seen it, and heard of plenty of cases where my beliefs have been confirmed.

I don't wish to categorize everybody into the same boat. Just because I think something is more common, does not mean there aren't exceptions.

Human nature is the way it is. Whether it's women or men, people are attracted to various things. Power, wealth, appearance, attractiveness....while often other qualities are less desired, personality, mild-mannered, quiet, good-hearted yet poor.

Through a friend I knew a woman who was married to a guy who was regarded as being a "10." He looked like a model, and from what I had heard, women would all look at him when he walked into a room. He was the trophy guy.

During their marriage, he was mentally abusive to her, yelling in public on occasion. He would go away for the weekend to Vegas, and gamble with his friends....also doing who knows what else, while she remained at home with their young son. He smoked pot. But he didn't just "smoke pot," he really smoked it. Stoned All The Time.

Finally, he tossed her down the stairs one day, and that was it. She finally decided to file for divorce. But through the majority of it, she just didn't care. And you know why? As I was told, it was because of his looks. Because he was the trophy guy. That was what she saw and wanted, and didn't want to give up. And you know what else, she's not the only woman like that.

I refuse to concede that I'm off base here. Again, I don't wish to make it sound like all women are like this, only that it is not so uncommon. It's amazing what people are willing to do in the interest of blind love or attraction. Someone's money, or their looks, or their physical attributes, will enable a guy to attract a woman, and the fact they may be abusive physically or mentally, is forgiven in the interest of continuing to live an illusion that they have someone worthwhile.

[Book Lover]

53. Oooh. Bitter much?

Yes, you caught her! She made the wrong, wrong, wrong decision (i.e., not you) and now all of us act in a monolithic manner. Good one, buddy. You got our number, boy.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Say what? I don't think so. nt

[WindRavenX]

65. You don't speak for me

So shut up.

:hi:

[Knurled99]

67. post deleted

don't even want to get into that debate

[jerry611]

71. It is true in high school and college...

Come on. We've all been to high school. No one dates outside their social class. Cheerleaders only date the jocks. The sidekicks and wannabees only date each other. The nerds date nerds. The fat boys date fat girls. etc, etc...

In college, the particians break down a little bit. Mostly because you deal with a greater diversity of people. But the particians are still there.

After college, both women and men grow up. And they are now not looking for the best looking and most popular. They are looking for the most sucessful. Because for the first time they are starting to consider the future.
The good looks your partner has right now will not last forever. He/she may look very hot right now. In about 15-20 years, there will be winkles, gray hair, weight gain, and other signs of aging. When the looks are gone, what's left? If the answer is nothing, you are with the wrong person. And you better start saving up your pennies because you are going to need it for a future divorce lawyer.

The best rule you can ever follow is not to get married before age 25. That's the golden number. At age 25 you have reached a suitable level of maturity to make a life-long decision. At 18 or 19...no, you are not mature enough and you will probably have a divorce.

[StellaBlue]

79. I wouldn't.

I hate that shit.

[bettyellen]

80. not any women i know. sheesh.

i guess we don;t run in the same circles to say the least.
i'm so sorry for your friends, they should get help.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. Wrong. Emotionally insecure or immature women go for jerks

Emotionally healthy women don't go for macho jerks. We also don't go for passive-aggressive types who are "being nice" only because they want to get us into bed.

By the way, the women who like jerks have their counterpart in the men who gravitate toward neurotic, high-maintenance shrews.

[treestar]

97. Women also prefer older men

I don't know how many times I've been informed of that.

Yet I still don't find old men to be as attractive as young men.

go figure.

[raccoon]

112. Not all women! I like 'em younger...and older. nt

[zanne]

106. BS

That's another urban myth that guys who can't get dates keep talking about.

[raccoon]

109. Maybe some women that YOU'VE known do that.

Certainly it isn't true of ALL women.

[rucky]

130. I hate to see such a dogpile on that statement.

I'm not agreeing with you, but I'll say this much.

More than once (probably 5 or more times) I've seen a friend or family member enter a relationship that I just knew would turn out abusive. And more than once, we've been proven correct.

I don't think "wanting it" explains this behavior, as much as an subconcious act of self-sabotage. I'm not sure how potential abusers can be identified, but after being around enough fucked up kids (and their parents), I can definitely say that I can smell them a mile away.

[redqueen]

136. 100% false.

Women are not a homogenous entity.

While some if not many women might be so indoctrinated into our MACHO culture to fall for it repeatedly, most learn early on what a fraud it is.

DEATH TO MACHO CULTURE!

[Tesha]

137. Only at certain times of the month.

Seriously. A recent study shows that women's tastes in
good-versus-bad boys varies noticeably across their
menstrual cycles.

One link (but not on the exact study I read):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/376321.stm

Tesha

[colorado_ufo]

142. Guys with muscles can be nice, too!

That being said, I feel the numbers are at LEAST 20% below what they should be. And that is not even counting the case of mild "insults."

[stepnw1f]

154. Not My Future Wife (nt)

[Tansy_Gold]

158. Yeah, and women like to get beat up and abused and

threatened and insulted and kept in financial bondage.

:sarcasm:

I'm late to this thread and probably no one will reply to my comments, but I get furious about this kind of crap.

Women don't gravitate to abusive men any more than they enjoy being smacked upside the head because the potatoes are overdone or the sheets aren't tucked in tight enough.

Women DO gravitate to relationships that they think will provide them with some form of companionship, perhaps some financial security (and I don't mean they expect the guy to pay all the bills), and some help with the "guy" things that young women aren't routinely taught, i.e. fixing cars, replacing leaky faucets, etc.

Some women enter relationships because they're eager to leave other relationships. I can't begin to tell you how many women I know who got married at sixteen or seventeen or eighteen because they wanted to get away from home and the abuse they saw there. They thought "love" would make everything better. At sixteen or seventeen or eighteen they weren't capable of distinguishing the type of relationship they were entering, and when they did recognize the abuse, they tried to get out.

Many women, regardless of age and/or experience, can't get out of the relationships. There aren't enough shelters, there aren't enough counselors. Until a few years ago, the police wouldn't even interfere in "domestic disturbances." Many women were told just to deal with it. "Be a better wife," they were told, by cops, by judges, by ministers/priests/rabbis/etc. If a woman is financially dependent on her abuser, it's that much more difficult. Even if she has a job, she might not be able to maintain a decent standard of living without the contribution from her partner.

Many victims of abuse aren't physically battered. They are controlled, they are humiliated, they are threatened. And often when they look for help, they're turned away because "that isn't really abuse." And so they suffer in silence and think there's something wrong with them because they FEEL abused, but there are no bruises or broken bones.

Most women who are interviewed on the subject will cite one or more instances in their lives when they've been the victim of some kind of abuse: a boyfriend threatened to beat them up if they didn't have sex, or a husband shoved them against a wall when the baby didn't stop crying. Many women are perfectly capable of recognizing the signs of abuse or even potential abuse, and many women effectively avoid or escape abusive relationships.

But abuse, like violence, is endemic in our society and in our culture. (Too many people, including too many women, don't see the staircase scene from GWTW as rape, because after all, Scarlett was so pleased in the morning. . . . .) And so is sexism. Women who kill their abusive male intimate partners are much more likely to 1.) be charged; 2.) be convicted; and 3.) serve time for their crime than are men who kill their non-abusive female intimate partners. Women who are abused by male intimate partners are much more likely to be killed if they attempt to leave than if they stay; women who have children at risk in an abusive relationship will often stay and take the abuse rather than subject their children to possible trauma -- which can include physical violence, removal to foster care, or even divorce with custody being awarded to the abusive male partner (because he more often has sufficient income to take care of them). And remember, even if the threats/fears are unfounded, as long as the woman feels them to be true, she will act accordingly.

Sorry for this long post. I could go on and on and on, and cite a dozen or more books and papers on the subject, but this isn't the forum for it.


Tansy Gold

[LostinVA]

179. Late to the thread, but the best post on the thread! n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

188. thanks, LostinVA! (n/t)

.

[bunyip]

196. Excellent post,

Tansy_Gold.

An eloquent and well written description of the problems faced by women in abusive relationships. :cry:

However, our culture has a problem (re. my post 95 above) in that many women DO prefer a man who gets results quickly by striding out and kicking his dog to stop it barking, or who will rant and rave rather than negotiate over some issue with a stranger.

It looks manly to some (immature or insecure) women, and they need their sisters to set them straight.

Cheers, :toast: and thanks for your contribution.

[Marie26]

162. Please don't tell us how we are. nt

[CTLawGuy]

163. women have the power to choose

who they date. They choose to reward these shithead guys by dating them. And they are shitheads, any man who hits a woman is.

They need to use their power of choice more wisely.

Note: I don't mean ALL women.

[Tansy_Gold]

166. And abusers have the power to choose not to be shitheads

Stop putting all the burden on the victims. Recognize that the abusers have as much choice -- if not more -- not to abuse as the victims have to choose their partners.

I doubt that many victims, male or female, would eagerly enter a relationship in which they knew they would be beaten, raped, humiliated, and in various other ways physically and mentally abused. No one, except the seriously mentally ill, chooses that kind of relationship. Likewise, most who abuse are NOT seriously mentally ill and CAN choose not to abuse.

[CTLawGuy]

169. I agree with you

but I think women need to understand that they are not helpless. They are responsible (meaning they have the power and duty) to protect themselves by making intelligent choices, and by making respect for them and for women in general a priority when looking for a mate.

At least from my experience, women have not prioritized respect for women as a value they look for in their men.

If I have daughters, the first thing I will tell them about dating is that respect is key.

[Mandate My Ass]

172. They usually aren't helpless entering these relationships

and these men can hide what they truly are until they render the woman helpless in a number of ways over a long stretch of time.

Women are not responsible for the abuse that is heaped on them although you keep insisting they are.

[LostinVA]

182. Again, educate yourself

Even the most intelligent, financially independent woman has trouble leaving these relationships... because they know what'll happen when they do. And it often does happen. Recently, a woman was shot picking up her daughter from day care... by her ex. A successful white collar guy. Women have to hide from these guys... and, after being tortured for years, having your spirit broken like a POW or a beaten dog, how the hell do you leave? That was rhetorical. No glib answer please. I'm hoping you're not being malicious, but really and truly are clueless about this.

I'll reiterate: go talk to a domestic abuse counselor.

[CTLawGuy]

185. I have always been told women are equal to men

so that's how I treat them. and a man I would expect to not tolerate abusive behavior, or let himself be tortured for years.

we should not expect less from women becuase they are women. they should NEVER let themselves be disrepected by men ever, and men of course should never disrespect women.

Of course abuse is NOT their fault, but it is wise to take action early and not fall into a place where they can't get out.

[WildClarySage]

192. When I taught Domestic Violence Education

one of my students said to me "If he'd hit me on our first date, there never would have been a second."

Women don't usually get abused physically until a relationship with the abuser is developed to the point that she is emotionally invested, and the abuser takes that investment and uses it as a tool to control her.

[Veronica.Franco]

193. Well said ...

Thank you ... sometimes not only emotionally but financially dependant on him ...

[WildClarySage]

194. I hope too, that you will teach your sons

that violence is not a normal part of any relationsip.

[LostinVA]

181. Seriously, and I do not mean this nasty at all

You have no flipping idea what you're talking about. None. I believe you're just unaware. Do some reading, talk to a domestic abuse counselor... most men who abuse are the nicest guys you'd ever meet... and doesn't every woman want to date a nice date? Very, very few abusers come across as absuers... at first. And, most are so good at keeping it hidden that NO ONE knows about it, except for the woman he's abusing. He's the super nice neighbor who helped you shingle your roof, your minister, your doctor, your good old boy coworker, your brother.

Again, I'm not being snarky, I'm being serious: educate yourself on this.

[CTLawGuy]

183. there's a difference between being "nice" in general

(most people are nice in general),

and being respectful of your woman and women in general. Women need to reward truly respectful men instead of just not giving a shit.

[Tansy_Gold]

190. It's not a matter of "not giving a shit"

I suspect, from your comment earlier about "if I have daughters. . . " that you're fairly young, maybe under 30. Just to give you some perspective: I'm 57, I have a daughter who's 30, a son who's 29, and two young grandsons. I also have a degree in Women's Studies and a graduate degree in sociology. So I have some background and experience and expertise.

Just about every aspect of our uniquely American culture glorifies violence and toughness and machismo, so long as it comes from men. Strong women are NOT glorified in our culture. Scarlett O'Hara, for all her acquiescence following Rhett's rape, was still a very "strong" woman who suffered the punishment of having her man leave her; Melanie Wilkes, the "good" wife, died happily for having given her husband another baby. Thelma and Louise drive over a cliff.

The whole fundamentalist "christian" ethic pushes that women be submissive, subservient, suffering, and it doesn't matter that not every woman in this country is a fundamentalist: right now, and for the past twenty years or so, that is the mindset that gets the most positive play in our culture. Poor tormented Andrea Yates couldn't be good enough, couldn't raise good enough children, and so she killed them; her fundamentalist husband Russell took no responsibility for her state of mind and recently remarried.

Women do indeed give a shit. In fact, they give a lot more. The problem is that too often those in power over abused women -- male partners, courts, police, counselors, family, etc. -- put the blame on the woman exactly as you have done. It doesn't matter if she didn't exactly INVITE the abuse, or DESERVE it, or ASK for it, or LIKE it: If she chose to be in that relationship, then it's her fault.

My current boyfriend -- I was widowed last year after 36 years of marriage -- used to believe that there was no such thing as rape. "Woman can run faster with skirt up than man can run with pants down," he used to joke. "Or as my mother used to say, you can't thread a moving needle." In other words, if the woman doesn't die fighting off her attacker, she must have acquiesced and secretly wanted it. And the same thing with abuse: if she doesn't leave, she must like it.

We had some long discussions about this, until he finally realized that maybe it wasn't all that simple. Maybe women who are raped really are faced with a choice of death or rape and maybe it's not their fault that they choose to live rather than die. (The Lucretia syndrome?) And maybe women who find themselves in abusive relationships don't have good alternatives. Or they don't have sufficient support networks to help them get out. Or maybe they fear they'll be killed if they leave. THE MOST DANGEROUS PERIOD FOR AN ABUSED WOMAN IS WHEN SHE LEAVES HER ABUSER. Or they fear for their children or their pets or other members of their family.

I remember back in the late 80s or early 90s reading Charlotte Fedders' account of her horrible marriage and thinking that I couldn't really feel sorry for Charlotte. She came from a wealthy Catholic family, became a nurse, and married her dream man with whom she had four (or maybe it was six) sons. Her lawyer husband worked for the SEC and eventually became the chief enforcement officer for that agency. But he was physically abusive. He kicked her, threw her down stairs when she was pregnant, and so on. But she didn't leave -- and the reasons given in the book were that she didn't want to leave the country club, the big house, the private Catholic schools for her boys. And, of course, she couldn't really believe this was happening to her in her nice, upper-middle-class Washington DC life.

But when I thought about all the women who were in abusive relationships who didn't have family to fall back on the way Charlotte did, who didn't have the financial means to leave the way Charlotte did, who didn't have an education the way Charlotte did -- I couldn't feel too sorry for her. That she was abused, yes, of course I did.

But many women who enter a relationship and think it's going to be wonderful are shocked when it turns out not to be. My sister was in one of those relationships; it took her ten years to find the courage to admit she'd made a mistake and get out. She didn't want to disappoint our parents. She didn't want to make a scene. She didn't want to admit to herself the marriage was "a failure." Now, remarried happily to someone who doesn't mistreat her, she laughs about "the asshole I married the first time."

A young friend of mine grew up in a house where her parents had little respect for each other, even though they weren't abusive. Her father made no secret of his relationships with other women; her mother had boyfriends on the side, too. So my friend, hungry for peace and affection, got pregnant and then married at 17. She couldn't see how disastrous the relationship was going to be until she was in it: her husband had put on a very different face while they were dating and making a baby. Once married, he was controlling, manipulative, and finally abusive. She's now 23, and told me just a few weeks ago, "I'm glad I have my baby, but I wish I had known then even half of what I know now. And I know that I don't know enough even yet to think about getting married again."

She's lucky. Another young friend wasn't so fortunate. Raised in a family where her father was verbally and emotionally abusive, she too married at 17 and quickly had a baby. She also realized that the marriage was abusive and struggled to get out. She had all kinds of orders of protection against her ex, but that didn't stop him. He still had visitation rights with their son. So one week-end she took the little boy, then just two years old, to visit his father at the father's house. But she never came home. Several days later, when her parents called the police to start looking for her, her body was found in a shallow grave in the ex-husband's back yard. He had killed her in front of the little boy.

As I said, I could go on and on about this subject. I could tell you about the women I've personally known who have been in abusive relationships and how they struggled to get out and/or to "fix" their abusers. I could tell you about my own personal experiences in abusive relationships. I could tell you about the abuse that no one ever sees or suspects that goes on in "perfect" families.

Until people get the notion out of their heads that the victims of abuse -- male or female, gay or straight, married or single or divorced or virginal or promiscuous -- choose their fate, we won't be able to fix the problems.


Tansy Gold

[beingthere]

8. And the earth is not flat and the sky is blue, too. Good God, is there

anyone living who did not already know this "news"?

[Ohio Joe]

11. I'm not at all shocked

Disgusted but not shocked.

[Triana]

12. Well DUH...

...who's surprised. Raise your hand (or your fist). This, like poverty and a lot of other festering, national, epidemic-level problems, is largely ignored and accepted by our society. Suddenly it's news? Well that's good. Who's going to DO SOMETHING about it? Are they going to change the laws? I doubt it. Look at who mostly MAKES the laws. Not enough women involved in that...and that's the problem. One-half of our society is considered sub-human, second-class, sex machines, housekeepers, and incubators and are not equally represented in our gov't. We're just "Service" droids to a lot of people.

When we have a progressive Madame President in the US, this will change. It probably won't change sooner because it's not considered a priority. (it won't put money in the pockets of rich folks, corprats, or gas and oil, telecom, big pharm, or insurance companies).

[Sapere aude]

25. From what I know, we already have laws against this. Either they are not

enforced or there is no complaint filed. I think part of the problem is our culture. If more men would feel OK with being emotional and learn to solve their problems with their brains instead of their fists, maybe it would make a difference. We glorify violence and use it to solve problems. Negotiation is seen as weakness.

I'm a man and I hate the women beaters as much as anyone does. I makes me think that almost half of the male population is not far removed from the Neanderthals.

[Triana]

37. the laws are definitely not enforced....

...and women too often want to give the guy too many 'chances' to change or they hope he will. They're too forgiving.

[superconnected]

43. yep, I used to work at a police department handling the domestic

violence women when they came in.

They constantly wanted to report the guy and get him in "trouble", but not to file charges.
I had the same abused women over and over again.

There was also the occasional guy that would come into the police dept and turn himself in for domestic abuse. They were always normal looking white guys that were dead calm. So calm for what they were admitting to that it was scary.

[gorbal]

57. That tactic actually works to some extent

I had a roomate who was freaking out so bad I finally had to call 911 on her. That calmed her right down.

I work in a psychiatric facility, and we get a lot of men in there who have abused there spouses. Some of them are real jerks, but at least half are so mentally deranged you can't blame them so much as the world we live in. This one poor guy's family disowned him, and he could barely put two words together to form a sentence his mind was so gone.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Triana]

88. Sounds like the laws have improved then...

...good (though that is not what I've seen and heard lately). What's this "she started it" crap? That's irrelevant. This is not a kindergarten playground where a 180 lb kid beats up a 90 lb weakling because "she started it".

Apologist for wife-beaters and women abusers, are you? It's justified you say? Been walking upright long? I think some men need to grow up and stop trying to control women all the time and learn to control themselves, instead.

We're not on the playground anymore.

Jeeeze.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

103. I think I'm glad I didn't see that message before it was deleted...

[Triana]

125. Consider yourself lucky...

...You definitely wouldn't have liked it.

[raccoon]

114. Good post, but the problem goes further than,

"If more men would feel OK with being emotional and learn to solve their problems with their brains instead of their fists.."

Most of these men who beat their wives or SO's are very selective about when they choose to solve their problems with their fists.

Most of them would never try it with their boss/co-workers. Or their neighbors. Or another man, particularly one that was their own size or larger.

[sarcasmo]

13. Let the latest D/U Man bashing thread begin.

[Sapere aude]

19. Yes this will be really good, it will probably be a couple of hundred

replies.

I'm 60 yrs old and have never done anything violent to a female in my life yet I'll be lumped together with all those who have. I wonder if the story was written that 60% of women have never been abused by a man what kind of thread would it turn out to be?

[sarcasmo]

21. Sapre, you watch it will probably get to two hundred replies and have the

flames to the left of the subject line. Every couple weeks the Man bashing thread starts and the Moderator's just let them continue.

[blondeatlast]

56. I'm repeating myself, but....

:nopity:

Nice try, though.

If it bothers you--use the HIDE THREAD button--it's really quite handy.

Oh, and you might want to stop kicking it up while you are at it! :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

36. The HUGE majority of women on this board do not feel this way

And don't express that. But, as you can see, there are already "she asked for ot" posts popping up. Any reaction will be to THOSE posts alone, although some posters on here (I don't mean you!) will call us "men haters," etc.

Some really anti-women sentiments expressed on these, rape, and child support threads. SCary stuff.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

144. Who's lumping you in with whom?

:wtf:

[Mandate My Ass]

23. I thought this was an abuser-bashing thread myself

Thanks for setting us all straight. We're obviously PMSing. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

55. Bait much? I'm well aware that most men DON'T do this stuff.

My husband doesn't, my dad didn't, none of my cousins do.

I do know of one man who did and I testified at his trial.

One man out of maybe 30 I know well. That's .03% by my calculations.

:nopity:

[autorank]

129. You're surrounded by good people & you probably don't take

any garbage and project that 'tude. Sadly, these figures are a tad bit high compared to national averages but they're probably close. There is a war on women in this country but it's behind closed
doors. The rape rate for high school girls is 25% by the time they graduate and this is real. The domestic assault rate is in the 20's to 30's.

The key here is that there are a core of men around 15% who account for this. There is NOT a new male batterer for each victim. That would be to depressing to believe.

Battering cannot be distinguished by race or ethnicity. When you factor in SES (socio economic class), it occurs at a much higher rate in the lower income groups but is still significant in the
middle and upper classes. There is no common profile for victims because almost all men "behave" before marriage. The commonalities among batters are narcissistic personality, alcoholism, and witnessing partner abuse in their families as they grew up.

As for your experience, think of yourself as one together person who sends out either subtle or explicit messages that men shouldn't even bother to get to know you if they're going to pull any of this. This isn't documented but probably true: these guys, weak and frightened, use superior physical strength as a means to bully their spouses but they often seem to know when they'll get some real push back or worse;)

[Kailassa]

83. Please stop implying that all men bash women.

We are talking about men who do, and there is not a single post here blaming all men for the problem.

However, if the cap fits, feel free to keep wearing it.

[bettyellen]

90. why do you equate abusers with all men? no woman here said that

unless we are talking about you?
defensive for some reason?

[redqueen]

143. Excuse me?

The first posts to generalize were against women... 'women like tough guys'

No need to get defensive.

If a post concerns you, respond to that one... saying things like this only fans the flames... do you think that's helpful? Constructive?

[patcox2]

14. How do they define "psychological abuse?"

Self-reported pyschological abuse? As in "he made me unhappy?" How much of the 40% was that kind?

[Betsy Ross]

18. Psychological abuse is very well defined.

Classic behavior is isolating the spouse from friends and family; unwarranted jealousy; verbal abuse, name calling, etc. I know because I was there. Abusers come in every body size and shape, every religion or lack thereof, and everywhere on the political or intellectual scale. Any thinking otherwise is WRONG.

[Mandate My Ass]

20. I was with one of those too

He isolated me and if I tried to be with family or friends he became very jealous and verbally abusive. He's also withhold money and become chillingly silent for days on end. He always exacted revenge. Once he broke all my mementos of happy events that occurred before I met him. None of them were expensive, but they were priceless to me.

It really was emotionally devastating and it's not a case of a dissatisfied woman complaining about run-of-the-mill relationship squabbles.

[China_cat]

34. The one I was married to

also picked my reading material, tv shows, movies, etc. To the point of actually taking the tubes out of the tv (this was a long time ago) when he'd go out at night so I couldn't watch anything without his 'permission'. Couldn't have a phone, couldn't even send birthday cards to my family unless he saw them first and was the one to seal and mail them. (Which I later found out he never did)

To this day his family will tell you that he was too 'nice' to ever act that way. Or to break my ribs and my hand and knock out 2 teeth and damage one of my kidneys (while I was pregnant) by kicking me in the back repeatedly and pull out handsful of hair and give me black eyes, etc. But then, he kept me isolated from them, too, so they'd never see what he was doing.

[Mandate My Ass]

127. I'm so sorry

That's terrible. I'm so glad you got away. :hug:

I wasn't allowed to drive, go out without one of his sisters with me, or be unavailable by phone for more than a certain amount of time. Of course he'd disappear for days on end without explanation.

[colorado_ufo]

145. Dear God, I am so sorry for your suffering.

Congratulations on your courage.

[China_cat]

149. The ones to be sorry for are the ones

who haven't made it out and don't even have the courage to tell someone what's really going on.

[Tight_rope]

176. That's right...we should still feel sorry for them...

But still Congratulations for your courage. I cried at what happened to you. My boyfriend of 3+ years likes living so he would never do these things.

[China_cat]

178. My abusive ex is dead.

I partied when I heard.

[patcox2]

30. Did the pollsters go over all those factors with the respondents?

I know its a serious problem, but I think overstating it is counterproductive.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

41. "Name calling"?

I was actually just about to ask about emotional and psychological abuse. I frequently hear these terms but have no idea what exactly constitutes said abuse.

Am I to understand properly that if one is having an argument with their girlfriend and calls her a "bitch" or "stupid" in the heat of the moment that that constitutes emotional abuse?

[China_cat]

50. No, it's constant and

humiliating. 'Why should you eat supper, you're already too fat', 'nobody would ever want a cow like you', 'if I'd realized just how ugly you are, I'd have never married you' etc. Jokes in the same vein to visitors or other family. The top names;

fat
lazy
cow
ugly
stupid
pig

Never just once. Maybe one of them in every sentence.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. Perhaps you're being psychologically abused

:shrug:

It happens to men, too, especially the ones who go for neurotic shrews because they mistake the emotional drama for sexual passion.

[alarimer]

108. I believe that it does

being called names is never good, even in an argument. Someone who would do that to someone else is probably capable of doing a lot worse. Personally, if a guy I was with called me a name like that or said I was stupid, that would be it. A major red flag of worse things to come.

[LostinVA]

115. If someone I was dating EVER called me a bitch?

That would be the last time they would call me anything. I would be outta there. Because, like you stated, calling someone that is a major red flag. I've had some crazed fights with girlfriends with people I've dated, and I have never been called that... maybe because they were other women? Who knows.

[raccoon]

116. You and me both, sister.

If a guy I was seeing called me names like that, his ass would be history.

[dalaigh lllama]

150. re: namecalling

Am I to understand properly that if one is having an argument with their girlfriend and calls her a "bitch" or "stupid" in the heat of the moment that that constitutes emotional abuse?

At the least it constitutes a low level of maturity. Those who can't maintain respect for their partner, even in "the heat of the moment," don't have much self respect, IME.

[autorank]

131. This is THE description of PARTNER ABUSE--take a look, it's great!

http://www.msu.edu/~cdaadmin/power_&_control_wheel.htm



Partner abuse is not just about hitting, punching, kicking, slapping.
It's about CONTROL and there are a variety of ways to that end.

This is the classic description.

[Hekate]

206. Thank you Autorank, for shedding more light and less heat on the topic

As others in this thread have noted, abuse runs the spectrum of social strata, race, religion, what-have-you. When my sister was a young professional she had a mercifully brief relationship with the son of a prominent judge. When he started doing things like slamming her body against the wall, he justified his behavior by pointing to his dad's abuse of his mother. In his experience, this was normal male-female relations -- dad beat the crap out of mom, and mom stayed in the marriage. And dad was a judge, so hey -- it's not like he was some low-life trailer-trash.

A friend of mine was married to an extraordinarily successful man. I met her in a graduate program while we were both working on our Master's Degrees, but to watch her husband's behavior toward her you would have thought she had the IQ of tepid bathwater. He certainly didn't want her to have friends from our program over -- that would have interfered with his own social requirements. I think he had her convinced that without him she and their daughters would starve, but when the youngest was well established in college my friend finally found the courage to leave.

Their name is legion. But in a society like ours, where so many men are convinced that women can't even be trusted with their own bodies, I think it's a syndrome that feeds on itself.

Hekate

[bunyip]

208. Thanks, both of you.

Research, and personal testimony. No generalized hate.

Autorank, Hekate, your posts are what the thread should have been.

:yourock:

[autorank]

214. Thanks bunyip and WELCOME TO DU!!!

:yourock:

[Hekate]

215. You are most welcome. And welcome to DU.

:hi:

Hekate

[BiggJawn]

68. Probably like the shit my ex-wife used to do to me.

"What? Can't keep it up tonight? I swear, I'm gonna trade you in on a younger model!"

"No, you can't have money for gas and smokes, I need to go shopping. I don't CARE you don't have enough gas to get to work. Tell somebody who gives a shit."

"My mother is RIGHT! You ARE a worthless POS!"

Have a cuppa coffe, hurled overhand.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

105. Damn! Musta been nasty if someboedy else busted a cap on it! n/t

[redqueen]

146. Yep! That's it *exactly*

And i wonder if this type of abuse isn't just as common coming from women... but goes unreported due to our oh so wonderful macho-worshipping culture.

:banghead:

[BiggJawn]

151. Yeah...

People tend to edge away from you at parties when you say "Yeah, I was a victim of spousal abuse...
And almost ALL the information you find out there says stuff like "...when the abused spouse decides to leave HER (emphasis mine) abuser..."

It's getting better, I can actually find information now that addresses the subject of abused men. 10 years ago, there was nothing, unless you count count advice for the "bottom" in an abusive gay relationship.

[redqueen]

159. that is so sad...

frickin heartbreaking, really

how i despise this macho culture!

if you ever want to talk, i've been there...

[BiggJawn]

167. No, what's sad is...

...the "there go those MEN again, hijacking OUR thread and diminishing the problem of woman abuse by claiming they get abused, too." postings

Can't wait till Ralph Nader runs for office again so we can stop hating each other.

Oh, and for some of you misanthropes, I don't have any "history as an abuser" that I'm in denial about.

[redqueen]

173. That, too... divide and conquer, right?

:cry:

IMO it doesn't matter that fewer men suffer this fate... so what? It ALL needs attention... not one side first, then the other.

It shouldn't be so easy to turn people against one another... shouldn't be so easy to attack each other, or suspect each other of malice...

[BiggJawn]

174. It's a problem for ALL of us.

We have to discard the phony "War of the Sexes" model that has been shoved upon us to sell perfume and aftershave for so long.

We live in a suspiscous age. A lot of us have been dicked-over so many times we've come to expect it, and it almost seems we're really put-out when it doesn't happen.

Yeah, and I'm just as guilty as the next person, too. (not of wife-beating)

[redqueen]

180. Exactly!

:applause:

:loveya:

Wish the whole thread were like this.

[AllieB]

198. Great post!

How true. We are all guilty of indulging in this 'war of the sexes' here on DU.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunyip]

197. You're not a man-hater.

You're just playing one on DU.

What percentage of posts in this thread deal with domestic abuse of men? Why do some people feel the need to hoard their 'victim' status for themselves?

It's possible to discuss both, without acting like the bulk of the problem is men abusing women and how the heck can we help stop this?

When you start, let us know.

It's not clear from your post whether you have same-sex relationships or not. If you haven't, this isn't directed at you.

In same-sex relationships, where gender strength differences are irrelevant, women are MORE likely to abuse than men. It is disgraceful, and puts the lie to the "something wrong with men" lay theory of domestic violence.

Denial in the GLBT community is a big problem, and I've had to counsel the results.

Do something.

[BiggJawn]

205. I'm one of those "snots".

"I was referring to the snots who always, always refuse to discuss this like men and throw out the "men are abused too" meme."
So, how does one discuss this "like a man"?

It's not a "meme". It happens.

But screw it, i'll not "hijack" the thread any longer.
I'm out of here.

[notadmblnd]

17. I'd have to say that it is as common as white bread

My husband put his hands on me one time (tried to slam my head into the wall and pushed me into he china cabinet) when he wouldn't allow me to call the police, I said ok, mother fucker, my turn. I grabbed him, threw him down to the floor and jumped on top of him and just as I was getting set to wail on his head, it was suddenly, Baby we got to stop this. He never put his hands on me again. We were together 20 years before he died peacefully in his sleep.

[warrens]

22. Keep in mind that doesn't mean 40 percent of men abuse

There are a lot of serial abusers out there.

And on that note, the guy who beat a friend of mine to death after defying a restraining order and sneaking back into her apartment with a key he evidently kept just walked today. He'd been in prison for three years awaiting trial, and they lowered the charge from first-degree murder to involuntary manslaughter. He might serve another six months.

Her name was Julie Grace, a former reporter for Time Magazine, and it's nearly the third anniversary of her death.

That scumbag, George Thompson, sat in the apartment for three days with her while she convulsed and died, and never called 911.

[northzax]

32. what a terrible story

and I bet that within 6 months of getting out, he will be involved in another relationship. It's a flaw in the human genotype.

[LostinVA]

38. The death of Dominique Dunne, the actress

Very similar to what happened to your friend. And, that scum didn't even serve real time, and is still a chef and free today. While Dominique has been dead foe over 20 years.

I am very sorry about your friend. So many women have been murdered because of restraining orders instead of jail time.

[ThomCat]

45. Restraining orders are a very bad joke.

There is no way to enforce them. The police don't even bother. And there is rarely any penalty for violating them.

Until we find a way to enforce a restraining order, and punish anyone who attempts to violate one, all we can do is hear more heartbreaking stories like this one...
x(

[LostinVA]

33. Oh, they probably asked for it

Talking back, spending money on frivolous things, undermining the men. They probably even flirted with other men... everyone knows that violence against women by abusive men is really exaggerated... why, 45% of all allegations against abusive men are false. Or so the Swami says. I mean, come on!

:sarcasm:

[Kailassa]

89. And dont forget, what really killed them was probably

just an over-reaction from being called a mean name.
Or they died of exhaustion from abusing their oh-so-perfect menfolk so terribly.

:headbang: :sarcasm: :headbang:

[LostinVA]

104. Oh yes, I agree

[upwidems]

39. from CNN April 7, 2006

The Other Face of Domestic Violence

SARASOTA, Florida (CNN) -- When I met Leo, Paul and Tom at a domestic violence shelter here in Sarasota, Florida, it was hard to believe the three men's story: that they were victims of physical abuse at the hands of their female partners.

Leo, who is about 6 feet tall and said he weighed more than 200 pounds at the time of the abuse, said his girlfriend terrorized him while he was recovering from a heart transplant.


It works both ways...

[WildClarySage]

47. Uh huh, since 4 in 10 women are abused, and 1 in 10 men are-

and of that 1 in 10, fully half are abused by another male,

this is relevant to what exactly?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[WindRavenX]

66. well said

As always, threads concerning women's issues are usually polluted by pig-headed males who assume women are bitter, bitchy, or PMSing :hi:

[Name removed]

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[raccoon]

118. And there are some cats that chase dogs.

But the vast majority of the time it's the other way around.

[redqueen]

147. heh... neat way to put it... n/t

[superconnected]

42. It's a loaded question since now a days people get married later

and I'd assume date more. They're asking if a woman has EVER been hit.

It'd be better if they ask if they've been hit/degraded recently or are in a relationship where it is abusive.

I've never been in an abusive relationship.

But I'd have to answer yes to the question because a bf slapped me. He asked me if I wanted to break up with him, I said yes, and he slapped me. I dumped him anyway. It was over a decade ago. But by this, I'm in the 40 percent, and bam it's supposed to speak for today.

Faulty study.

And yes I know there is a problem. I had my sisters neighbor arrested last year because he literally yelled "I'm going to slam your teeth down your throat", to his wife, and I called the police on my cell phone. Other than that, I wouldn't say it is rampant. I would say I witnessed someone elses abuse once in a year - still it's no indication of wether domestic abuse is on the rise or fall in society.

[raccoon]

120. Most of the time, domestic abuse occurs in private.

It would be hard for anyone to say whether domestic abuse is on the upswing or the decline. Like date rape and incest, up until the last few decades it just wasn't talked about.

[musiclawyer]

46. LIke the study that proves eating more calories than you expend

makes you gain weight. Not really news to me. Since I got divorced years ago, I have probably dated a couple of dozen women. More than half of them said they'd been either seriously physically and/or verbally abused. I know. I asked them.I wanted to know what kind of baggage I would be handling if I was to get involved to any extent.

[Name removed]

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[TrogL]

48. How about men abused by women?

[superconnected]

52. Yes, if the tables could only be reversed and men were getting abused and

killed by women.

Unfortunately, men are the truly violent and murderous people in our society. A woman murdered has a 75% chance that it was by her boyfriend or husband, where as a man murdered has over a 90% chance that it will be by another man.

It's horribly unfair to women.

If only it were reversed or at least 50/50. I could say, well it happens in humans because we're humans. But as it stands the violence generally shows up in male-humans, and their targets are men, women and children.

I'm not saying that most males are physically violent, I'm saying most physically violent people are males. Women don't make a dent where men do when it comes to statistics on violence.

[Walt Disney]

63. And most physically violent males are black. How about a little racism

to go with your sexism?

Care to see some stats...? :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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[bettyellen]

92. right, let's not look at stats because it'll offend people!

we might see problems that need addressing. god forbid!

[bunyip]

119. And most same-sex domestic violence perpetrators are women.

Carefor a little Homophobia to spice up your sexism?

"This study contributed to the data about same-sex relationship violence with a large sample (n = 499) of ethnically diverse gay men, lesbians, and bisexual and transgendered people.

...

Women reported higher frequencies than men for physical abuse, coercion, shame, threats, and use of children for control."

Reference

Turell, S. C. (2000) 'A Descriptive Analysis of Same-Sex Relationship Violence for a Diverse Sample', Journal of Family Violence, Vol. 15, No. 3, pp 281-293.





The violence, sexual coercion and threats continue. Don't you just love the "use of children for control"?:puke:

And not a man in sight...

Most little girls learn in the playground that they are weak and physical aggression will get them nowhere. Put women in a male-free environment, though, and the predator comes out.

Lesbian victims are doubly tragic, because they usually do not recieve sympathy from their families. A girl I used to know was beaten so badly by her girlfriend she was in hospital for three days. We couldn't convince her to leave - poor kid was certain she would never find love again if she left. Thankfully, the violent girlfriend left of her own accord a couple of months later.

[bettyellen]

121. women are more often abused no matter the relationship? surprised?

i'd actually love to see that stats or some more info from the study.
got a link?

[bunyip]

199. No, I'm not surprised at all.

Women are the weaker sex, but only gross physical strength terms.

I think men vastly under-report emotional abuse.

Quality research articles are not free. If your employer/institution doesn't, you can subscribe to Journal of Family Violence http://www.business-magazines.com/prd140854.php?siteid=global_BMS_product">here

[Name removed]

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[autorank]

132. I've looked at stats for this in detail. Race is NOT the factor. =>CLASSI

When you factor in SES, socio economic class, you find that the highest frequency, as a percentage of group, occurs in the lower socio economic class groups. Race disappears in significance when you do
this, any race.

There are inherrent tendencies and social permissions at play, but the stress of no $$$'s and two jobs can really bring this out. Makes guys feel inadequate and incapable, hence the need to be "on top."

[Name removed]

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[LostinVA]

59. And yet another one!

[BiggJawn]

69. Because nobody cares about those pussies.

Funny, isn't it? We're not supposed to get violent with women, but it's all "I can't believe you got your ass whupped by a GIRL!!!" when it happens to us.

[JVS]

51. I would argue that almost any relationship involves psychological abuse...

from both members within it. People are fucking assholes.

A good litmus test for how involved a relationship you're in is: "How much guff does person X give me?"

[LostinVA]

60. "Getting guff" isn't the same as being mentally tortured, raped, beaten

and killed. I've been in one bad relationship. There's no frigging way that compares to this. Being an asshole isn't the same as being a sociopathic monster.

[JVS]

62. Well then the question is, how much of an asshole is one allowed to be...

before it crosses the line to mental abuse.

As far as the beaten, raped, killed stuff goes, that can all be clearly asessed, but mental torture seems to be something that is on a shaded scale. The stories I read above are clear cases of mental abuse, but still the phrase begs the question of where being an asshole crosses the line.

[LostinVA]

64. Again, being an asshole isn't being a sociopath

And, I can't answer that, and neither can you. If someone feels they are being abused, then they are. Some people are affected by things more than other people... but there are no shades of grey. Abuse is abuse... and it's NOT being an asshole, or a dick, or a tool, or a jerk, or whatever. It's being an abuser.

[Name removed]

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[JVS]

82. Thanks for the answer.

I guess considering how the object of the action feels about it is the only way to tell.

[bain_sidhe]

54. The Screwfly Solution

(oops, forgot attribution)

We often talk about "The Handmaid's Tale" as a chilling look into a possible future. I'd like to introduce you to another one (from wikipedia):

The Screwfly Solution is a 1977 science fiction short story by Raccoona Sheldon. It received the Nebula Award for Best Novelette. Sheldon was better known as James Tiptree, Jr., but both were pseudonyms for psychologist Alice Sheldon. The story is mainly told by letters, newspaper clippings and government reports, and there is a narrator switch towards the end.

The title refers to the sterile insect technique for eradicating harmful insect species. It consists of releasing sterile male insects that will then compete with the wild males. The screwworm fly, also known as screwfly, was eradicated in North America and parts of Central America using this method.

Spoiler space
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Plot
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

The story portrays Americans Allan and Anne, from Ann Arbor, Michigan, as they exchange letters. Allan (probably an entomologist, although the story doesn't clarify this) is in a research trip to Colombia. Through their correspondence we learn that a mysterious misogynistic cult has arisen in some parts of the world advocating the killing of women as a form of purifying men. These fanatics slowly spread to major cities. A U.S. scientist called Barnhard Braithwaite, a friend of Allan and Anne who doesn't actually appear in the story but is hinted at many times, hypothesizes that this cult is actually the result of some biological factor, which he has not figured out yet.

When the surge of "femicide" threatens Anne, Allan returns to the USA. But he becomes infected himself, and now has dreams of killing Anne. He tries to stay away from his family, seeking the help of his friend Braithwaite, but he ends up killing his daughter Amy and then committing suicide. Anne, tired from fleeing the fanatics, decides to also kill herself. But before that, she sees an "angel", a figure "big and sparkly {...} like the Christmas tree without the tree". She then concludes that someone is doing to the human race what we did to the screwfly, so as to keep our planet for themselves.

I'm not saying that aliens are eradicating humans. I'm just saying that widespread femicide will have the same effect.

The complete story can be found here:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/sheldon/

[Name removed]

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[TankLV]

86. Dog Bites Man! Duh!

Tell us something we DON'T know or suspect is true for DECADES!

[BlueIris]

94. Breaking: NYT stuck in mid-1960s.

That is the last time I can find any media discussion of violence perpetrated by men against women which characterized the "revelation" that it's basically the world's oldest crime as "news."

[Name removed]

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[zann725]

122. And the shrinking economy, and jobs for mid-America INCREASES such abuse

Poverty, or struggling economically or jobless (loss of self worth)...statistically increases domestic abuse. Always has. A man just has to displace that "stress"...and NEED for self worth needs "exercised"...sadly through either abuse of his wife, or incest of his equally vulnerable (powerless) children...or other women, children.

[sinkingfeeling]

138. This is news to anyone?

[AllieB]

153. It's very disappointing to see so much misogyny on this thread

It's not so surprising that it's coming from some folks who have expressed anti-immigration sentiments, as well as anti-Chavez, anti-choice, and pro-war with Iran.

Are these Democratic ideals? If they are, maybe I'm in the wrong party.

[Veronica.Franco]

155. Democratic forums all across this country are haunted by neo-cons

They are here too ... no surprise ...

[stepnw1f]

156. Yes They Are

cowardly sneeky losers, full of hatred and in denial(neo-fascists). Welcome to DU.

[AllieB]

161. Astro turf

And they pick on women, as usual. :eyes:

[Veronica.Franco]

164. Thank you ...

Happy to be here ...

[Name removed]

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[FooFootheSnoo]

165. I think substance abuse

has a lot to do with domestic abuse. I think it tends to push someone predisposed to anger issues over the edge. My brother is a decent guy, but has a bad temper. He was having major financial issues, a new baby and working two jobs. He went out with some friends one night, had a few drinks and some cocaine. When he got home, his fiancee questioned him about why he was out so late, they wound up arguing and he wound up getting physical with her. If he hadn't been out drinking that night, I'm sure this would not have happened. Every time I've had a friend involved in an abusive relationship, there's also been a substance abuse problem, usually alcohol.

[LostinVA]

186. Alcohol doesn't make someone into an abuser

Alcohol can knocks the blocks off some, but if they do it it means they have that within them. Getting loaded doesn't transform you... although lots of alcoholics (including several family members) like to say it does. It's a way for them to dodge personal responsibility.

[dave29]

189. there is no excuse for abuse

but chronic alcoholism can turn an otherwise non-absuer into an abuser. Regardless of taking responsibility.

Same goes with methampetamines and other stimulants.

[roguevalley]

171. live long enough, the men will be in wheel chairs and then all bets

are off. I wish I had a nickel for the women I knew who told me this. :)

[Veronica.Franco]

175. The Disappearing Y ....

A book out a couple years ago, points out that the Y chromosome is weak and men will naturally be bred out of the race in the next 250,000 years or so ... (unless, of course, women decide to start sexing fetuses and speed up the process ... Then they could be out in less then 100 years with a concentrated effort) ... Face it dudes, you've had thousands of years to get it together, did you think we wouldn't notice? ... These are chilling facts, but men fill most of the prisons, pollute the planet, govern most countries, abandon their families, deny their children, abuse their spouses, control Wall Street, all major predatory corporations, hold most political offices, major communications, entertainment, sports, .... tsk, tsk, tsk, ... careful now ... if many women were honest guys might be replaced by an appliance ... or a library card ... ah, yes, the library card theory ... If we selected who might stay and who would go (only in theory or course) we could pick a nice square state, like UTAH, and pack all the guys into it that we choose to keep .... THEN ... each one of us would be issued a library card and just check out which one you need for a few days ... THEN ... stuff him back into the night depository at the end of the weekend ... Why buy the book? ... A night at the theater, a discussion of philosophy, or evening at the symphony might select one type of gentleman ... Need those boxes moved into the garage, or hedges trimmed, or roof cleaned, a very different more brawny type guy might be the ticket ... Of course, this is only in theory ... for now ... ;-)

[Name removed]

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[dave29]

187. I hate threads like this.

I love women. Some of them have treated me like shit. I have treated some of them like shit. I would never physically harm a woman, and never have. I've never been physically harmed by a woman.

When it comes to emotional abuse, I think there's plenty of that to go around in relationships as they progress. I wish it was not the case, but it has been my experience. In high school I was called the "marrying type", and was unable to get dates, since I was not the "dating type". I was also unbelievably shy and insecure, which does not help. As I got older, I became much more attractive, and got a lot more attention from women, especially after I got married. Not fooling around on ones wife drives the ladies wild. Go figure. I have always been, and will continue to be baffled (in a good way) by women. You keep doing your thing, and I'll keep on smiling all the way home.

Nobody deserves abuse, but then again, that doesn't stop it from happening.

My mother once called me a selfish son of a bitch (she didn't realize the irony of the statement) - does that count as emotional abuse? I was fourteen. She was and still is addicted to pain medication. My father never bothered to speak to me until I sought him out when I was 32. His first statement to me: "I knew you would find me when you were ready". Whatever. I still love them both, and always will. Some things you need a tough skin for... being a human being is one of them.

[Veronica.Franco]

191. Nice to meet you, Dave ...

You are a rare one, honest ... a keeper and she's a lucky lady ... you chose to rise above your parents' problems, hold your head high, and live your life with dignity ... you chose to happen to life rather then let life happen to YOU ... good for you ...

If I live a thousand years I'll never understand why some people choose to be happy and loving ... some choose to repeat the abusive pattern ... I wish you were the rule rather then the exception to it ...

What do you think we need? ... Better teachers for children ... better parents obviously ... They say all it takes is one coach ... one teacher who really believes in a kid and that kid sees that light shining and follows it ...

[dave29]

207. ultimately you just have to find a way to believe in yourself

you can't expect to get it from anyone else. If you do, you are lucky indeed. I've found that having faith in people, even when they have given you reason not to is rewarded... although you have to draw a line.

I try to look at everyone equally as well. Nobody has a rule book with all the answers... we're all stuck on this planet together, so it's best we try to not give in to the easy path of beating each other senseless.

[Veronica.Franco]

210. nicely stated ...

You are easy going too ... but you're right ... you have to know who you are, where you stand, and draw the line ... you are quiet brave to able to trust people who have given you reason not to ... that's a tough one ... I've found "Don't get bit by the same rattlesnake twice" usually applies ... each time I let a "user" back in they just do it again and I end up wondering why I didn't follow the sage Native American advice ... I have to admit it would have been nice to have been surprised otherwise ...

[Triana]

211. Please...

clone yourself!

:)

Send me one.

[Name removed]

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[bunyip]

202. Gentlemen!

We have a winner!

You've summed up the entire thread in one post. ;)

[AllieB]

203. Obviously you haven't read the thread thoroughly

or your perception is colored by that big chip on your shoulder.

[bling bling]

212. Maybe some of the women should just LISTEN to the men on this thread,

who are straight-out, flat-out telling some of you that some of your posts are making them feel like they are being stereotyped, bullied, and dumped on. Some of you obviously don't think they have any rational reason for feeling that way and that they need to get a clue, but that's being pretty insensitive and selfish on your part, if you think about.

I hate seeing anyone bully other people, whether it's men or women. And there's definitely some women here who are being ugly, close-minded bullies towards some of the men.

[Moderator]

216. Time for a lock

Thread has drifted into personal insults and drifted off-topic, too many flames.