U.S. military, Samarra residents differ on attack toll - Globe and Mail

[Screaming Lord Byron]

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031201.wiraq1201/BNStory/International/

Samarra, Iraq — The U.S. military said Monday that 54 Iraqis were killed in the northern city of Samarra as U.S. forces used tanks and cannons to fight their way out of simultaneous ambushes while delivering new Iraqi currency to banks.

Residents, however, said Monday that the casualty figure was much lower and that the dead were mostly civilians.

[pdove]

1. Where are the bodies of our success?

Let us count the actual number.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. Are they counting bodies recovered or possible hits?

I think the latter.

[Wwagsthedog]

3. I guess Gens. Abizaid & Sanchez are devotees of Wm. Westmoreland

He didn't count right either. Who believes anything the government said about Vietnam? Why should we believe anything the government says about Iraq?

[The Magistrate]

4. The Residents' Accounts Are More Likely Accuracte

Reports of the action mention several buildings being collapsed by tank fire. It is highly unlikely the guerrilla fighters cleared out the residents of buildings in which they took up positions: the flight of persons from such buildings would have risked the success of the ambuscade, and would probably have been prevented by the fighters. Nor is there any particular reason to believe U.S. troops have, in these situations, a particularly good idea of where fire is coming. That is an art, rather than a science, and U.S. forces today are not particularly experienced in the matter. Rocket grenade rounds leave a perceptible trail, of course, but people tend to move after shooting such devices.

[leftchick]

5. Here is one resident's account.....

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/56EE3BDE-1510-4F73-9D74-C820DF8FFD67.htm


<The town’s police chief Colonel Ismail Mahmud Muhammad said about 20 of the injured sustained their injuries while worshipping at a mosque during sunset prayers.

Resistance fighters who had attacked occupation forces had withdrawn when the Americans returned fire, said Muhammad.

Troops had done so indiscriminately with all weapons in their arsenal, he added.

“There was an attack and an exchange of fire between the Americans and the resistance lasting half an hour. The resistance withdrew, then bombardments started using all manner of weapons in all directions and without any discrimination,” said Muhammad.

He also said eight civilians were killed, including a child >


......I would believe the average Iraqi version over anything from this lying misadministration.

[ScrewyRabbit]

6. Regardless of the facts...

...the real problem is what the majority of Iraqis believe. That's where we're in trouble. And when you look at it that way, it starts explaining why Iraqi kids kick bodies in the street.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. Way to go Bu$hCo

Shooting up kindergartens now? I'm sure Iraq is full of 5 year old terrorists.

Many residents said the Americans opened fire at random when they came under attack, and targeted civilian installations. Six destroyed vehicles sat in front of the hospital, where witnesses said U.S. tanks shelled people dropping off the injured. A kindergarten was damaged, apparently by tank shells. No children were hurt.

“Luckily, we evacuated the children five minutes before we came under attack,” said Ibrahim Jassim, a 40-year-old guard at the kindergarten. “Why did they attack randomly? Why did they shoot a kindergarten with tank shells?”

On NPR this morning, they said that the residents claimed that the US troops rolled into the middle of a market place and opened fire on the crowd of people even though no one had attacked the troops. Who ever thought we would be worse than Saddam?

[teryang]

8. The bottom line is that if you don't speak the language

you're extremely unlikely to develope a reliable perception of what's happening around you.

Without an ability to read the events around you, you will fire indiscriminately. The inability to read human activities in a hostile environment breeds paranoia and bad judgement. This is a major reason for all the indiscrimate shooting. Someone posted another article which said that 200 Iraqi civilians had been killed since May 1 by American forces. I think this is on the low side.

When a firefight occurs, the operating ROE says kill them all and let god sort em out. They are apparently incapable of anything else.