US commander gives new toll for Samarra clashes, admits no bodies taken aw

[private_ryan]

I trust them, don't you?
********
BAGHDAD (AFP) - A top US military commander said that 54 insurgents were believed killed in deadly clashes in the Iraqi town of Samarra, and not a single civilian, but he acknowledged the toll was based entirely on estimates gleaned from troop debriefings.

Not a single Iraqi body was recovered by US forces from the scene of Sunday afternoon's clashes following ambushes against two heavily armed currency exchange convoys and another convoy of engineers, admitted the coalition's deputy director of operations in Iraq (news - web sites), Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt.

"There were 54 estimated killed, 22 estimated wounded and one confirmed in detention," said Kimmitt.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20031201/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_unrest_samarra_us_031201173037&e=2

[LittleApple81]

1. This would be too funny if it weren't too tragic!

WHAT IN HECK IS GOING ON HERE?????
The DO know that Americans are dumb... that is the only explanation I can aduce for this kind of idiocy.

[J B]

3. Bullshit meter into the red... no! She can't take any more!! *BOOM*

Proving cynics right across the globe...

[Voltaire99]

28. Keep repeating: VICTORY IS ASSURED! VICTORY IS...

Our smart bullets and bombs can detect an insurgent or a civilian just before impact!

[The Magistrate]

2. It Is Probably Wrong To Laugh, Sir

But damned hard to avoid, and my sense of humor is a wicked thing.

This is something we of a certain age will have seen many, many times before. There is nothing on earth less reliable than the estimate by green troops of the effects of their fire: the safest rule of thumb is to divide such estimates by ten, and even then they may well be unwarranted exaggerations still.

[The Magistrate]

4. The Machine Hiccoughed

[Scurrilous]

5. I wonder how many of those...

..estimated KIA's were actually dead water buffalo?

Ooops, wrong conflict.

[okieinpain]

45. damned un-patriotic reporters. can't they just report what they're told

.

[Barrett808]

6. Vietnam-style lies, debunked at Internet time

An amazing thing to watch, if it weren't so grim.

[Barrett808]

7. Hospital: "Eight civilians killed, 60 wounded by US fire in Iraq town"

SAMARRA: At least eight Iraqi civilians were killed and more than 60 wounded by US fire in bloody clashes with insurgents in the Iraqi town of Samarra, local hospital director Abed Tawfiq told a foreign news agency on Monday.

US commanders previously said they killed 46 Iraqi insurgents in the clashes. Accident and emergency department anaesthetist Bassem Ibrahim said we received the bodies of eight civilians, including a woman and a child.

Tawfiq said more than 60 people wounded by gunfire and shrapnel from US rounds are being treated at the hospital. He said there were so many casualties from US fire during their intense clashes with insurgents who ambushed American convoys in the town Sunday afternoon and evening that they had had to be treated in the hospital's corridors.

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en46483&F_catID=&f_type=source


(In case you missed this on the other thread...)

[54anickel]

8. Ties in to what I posted here:

Thwarted Ambush Was Highly Coordinated, U.S. Officials Say

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=247437

They were so quick with the first report to show great progress. They were able to "thwart" a coordinated attack.

Feel so bad for our troops, in such danger that anyone in the vicinity of hostile fire is now the enemy. Extreme stress, anxiety and fatigue.

[htuttle]

9. "Corporal, how many rounds did we fire?"

"We must have hit someone at least one out of four times, right?"
"Yes, sir. We must have."

The Return of W.A.G. Counts.

[Dudley_DUright]

39. I am going to take a wild ass guess

as to the meaning of W.A.G. Does it stand for wild ass guess?

[LittleApple81]

10. Could somebody post this in FreeperLand? They were so high

on Iraqi blood that it was frankly sickening.
I think the original body count was done for the benefit of people such as the freepers. They deserve to see part of the reality behind he curtain.
I don't have an account there so I can't. I know some DUers like to debunk things on that side of the fence, and this one seems perfect.

[54anickel]

11. Brilliant move by the insurgents.....

Didn't one of the high coalition officers recently remark how the insurgents/terrorists/whatever_they_call_them_now were attacking innocent civilians?

I think they have discovered it much more advantageous to draw coalition fire into civilian areas. Coalitions troops are killing innocent civilians this way.

[NNN0LHI]

18. I agree with you 54anickel

These Iraqis would be make it much easier for our military to identify and kill them if they were to limit their attacks to the open desert areas. Then our guys could rely on air and artillery support to help in eradicating them. Makes sense to me. I just can't think of a way to get them to cooperate. Any ideas?

Don

[54anickel]

24. Any ideas?

Sure, for one I think our commanders should spend more time commanding and less time spinning the media. Seems each time they open their mouths our troops end up being used and abused by this unidentifiable enemy. The change in the "insurgents" strategies just seem to play the opposite tune to what these media commandos are spouting. They moved on to draw our troops to fire on a kindegarten, a mosque and market. Keep the locals angry at the coalition troops.

Second, we need to get the hell out of there. I am not saying we should irresponsibly cut and run. Shrub needs to let go of controlling every aspect of these peoples future. Give them a stake, a say, it is their country. Get UN and NATO involved, a multilateral program. If US are not welcome by the Iraqis under UN, NATO (much like Turkeys offer) than we should honor that request while still providing monetary support to help fix what we broke.

[GainesT1958]

12. DOES remind me a lot of stuff out of 'Nam...

The similarities of this confilct to that one--and of Dub to Richard Nixon during that conflict--are really getting eeire.:scared:

B-)

[IndianaGreen]

47. This is exactly what the body counts were in Vietnam

Commanders were rated on the number of kills. What a crock of shit! This lends more credence to Al-Jazeera and BBC's accounts of 8 dead and many wounded, mostly innocent civilians including children.

[tom_paine]

13. Hee, hee -- welcome to Sovietized Imperial Amerika

Where all dissent is treason

All government pronouncements true

All truth is lies.

Man, Orwell was an effing PROPHET!

Just think how much his vision has already come true, and think of how much transforming Imperial Amerika has to do before it reaches it's ultimate phase.

The answer to the rhetorical question, "Could Orwell be more right?" is "Yes...wait for it."

[0007]

27. One thing we do know that is true is this video, please ck. it out....

'tis very powerful -

http://www.angelfire.com/creep/gwbush/remindus.html

[IndianaGreen]

49. That's an excellent video

Thanks for the link.

[izzie]

14. Did I read that right? No bodies found? Did they raise to heaven?

Come on what is going on?

[The Magistrate]

21. And Yet

The night before there were claims that bodies in uniform had been found....

[Walt Starr]

23. This was SOP during Vietnam

Count the blood trails. Count a body that was blown into eight pieces as eight bodies.

Damn, I wish I had been wrong that we were going into Vietnam II.

[shrdlu]

44. We killed 'em all...

...A wag used DOD casualty figures to calculate and conclude that since all the able-bodied Vietnamese had been killed or wounded, the war must be over

[qanda]

15. Those poor people!

Earlier I saw some footage on MSNBC and it showed a boy, about seven, with his lip all mangled. I said to myself that truly this boy must be from the Saddam Fadayeen. /sarcasm

This war grows more sick by the day. I guess we can't say we went to liberate them any longer, since we are now treating them worse than they were treated under Saddam.

[gratuitous]

16. By order of Gen. Westmoreland

The media are hereby commanded to print the body counts as reported by SenselessCom, and quit speculating about the truth or falsity of such reports.

Unintended Consequences Dept.: Since the media have abandoned their traditional duties of reporting, analysis and investigation, they have relied more and more on the "this statement said, but this other statement said" style of writing, which never decides between two mutually exclusive viewpoints, but just reports them. Now, when a rather important issue such as "Did the military kill four Iraqis, or 46? And were any of those killed civilians?" arises, they have no choice but to present, as if equal, the reports from the Military High Command, the eyewitness accounts, and what Al Jazeera might be saying.

It would almost be humorous if the subject matter didn't involve people getting killed.

[LittleApple81]

17. Could we RANK the news in Yahoo? It is not ranked very high there. n/t

[Vitruvius]

19. 'No bodies' suggests that the enemy kept possession of the battlefield --

and that they chased us out of there.

No verified enemy casualties, enemy left in control of the battlefield -- doesn't sound like a victory to me.

Bu$h put our boys in a no-win situation, and they are losing. While Bu$h lives it up in safety & comfort, dreaming of Iraqi oil.

[LittleApple81]

20. I had not thought about this explanation. It makes sense. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. Sounds more like the local U.S. commander realized only at the last...

...moment that they were shooting up civilians and then tried to put as much distance between Samarra and his command as possible.

[leftofthedial]

22. and the insurgents report 25,000 American dead

offering exactly the same evidence.

Laughable idiots.

[LittleApple81]

25. Don't wars and the hunger for power bring out the best in people? n/t

[minkyboodle]

26. Agreed

Its really quite ironic that right wingers take such delight in recounting Bagdad Bob yet believe reports thats offer no more evidence for their claims than he did.
Scott

[Fovea]

29. OMFG!!!

We are fighting the Viet Cong again!
Damn those guys get around.

[northzax]

30. troop debriefings?

this is how they get a body count? Hey Tom, how many'd you get? Oh, six or seven, how bout you Bob?

sheesh.

[damnraddem]

31. An estimated 0 U.S. soldiers and 0 civilians killed; but 54 'insurgents'?

By Kimmitt's estimates, 0 U.S. citizens have brains.

Having no other source to go on, I conclude that U.S. forces shot up a neighborhood but have no, and want to have no, idea of how many they murdered.

[RamboLiberal]

32. Guess they have the Iraqnam version of the 5 o'clock follies

Where false news and false body counts are reported. Have the idiot reporters there caught on yet?

[Barrett808]

33. Police, hospital reports of indiscriminate US fire are "disinformation"

Colonel Fredrick Rudesheim, commander of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, vowed to "continue to take the fight to this enemy," slamming as "disinformation" charges by Iraqi police, hospital and municipal officials in Samarra that his troops fired indiscriminately.

From one of the other threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=247622

[54anickel]

36. Uh ya, right. Sorry, but the record of witness reports vs military

reports thus far have been leaning heavily in favor of the witnesses being correct.
Right now, I'm betting on the Iraqi eye witness reports.

[The Magistrate]

37. As A Matter Of Curiousity

Are these police officials and municipal officials "ours"? Does the U.S. pay their salaries?

[pinto]

43. Now the Iraqi police and hospital staff are suspect...

Seems like I heard about how well we were training the Iraqi police forces and getting hospitals up an' running. Now they are suspect of "disinformation"? This love 'em hate 'em roller coaster will cost us more lives and time.

One guess, police and medical (Iraqi) folks don't communicate with the US forces and visa versa...

[fishnfla]

34. I dont know whether to laugh or cry

I cant believe this shit!

[Patriot_Spear]

35. Let me get this straight...

A 'well coordinated' attack by Iraqi partisans, who've managed to knock off 430 Americans and wound another couple of thousand, results in 0 casualties for the US but 54 dead insurgents- however no bodies were recovered.

Did Bruce Willis lead the mission?

If this bullshit can fly our country is finished.

[leftchick]

40. lol...Bruce Willis!

It all makes sense too...he is a republiCON after all!... :crazy:

[Barrett808]

41. AFP: Mystery shrouds whereabouts of bodies of 54 insurgents said killed

SAMARRA, Iraq (AFP) - The US military said it believed 54 insurgents were killed in intense exchanges in the northern Iraqi town of Samarra the previous day but commanders admitted they had no bodies.
The only corpses at the city's hospital were those of ordinary civilians, including two elderly Iranian pilgrims and a child.

US Brigadier General Mark Kimmit told a Baghdad press conference that 54 militants had been gunned down, 22 wounded and one arrested.

But challenged about what had happened to the bodies, Kimmit said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."

Asked about reports from senior police and hospital officials in the town of eight civilians killed and dozens more wounded, the US general insisted: "We have no such reports whether from medical authorities or police.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=afp/iraq_unrest_samarra

[SmokeyBlues]

42. Same old story!

...But challenged about what had happened to the bodies, Kimmit said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."

Yeah, Syria or Iran, with the weapons of mass destruction.

Asked about reports from senior police and hospital officials in the town of eight civilians killed and dozens more wounded, the US general insisted: "We have no such reports whether from medical authorities or police.

Yeah, the same no such reports that followed the blowing up of the wedding party in Afghanistan or the convoy travelling to Kabul to take part in the so-called 'peace' process following the departure of the Taliban.

[dicknbush]

46. Asked about reports from senior police and hospital officials in the town

"We will have a full investigation and get back with the information in about 8 or 9 months!

[IndianaGreen]

48. You have an excellent memory, SmokeyBlues!

I remember well the wedding party bombed by American pilots on go-pills, and the convoy of tribal leaders on its way to the Loya Jirga in Kabul. I also remember the graphic video of a bombed village (reported by CNN's Brent Sadler) that showed the bodies of children and infants being pulled from the rubble. Sadler was recalled stateside after that report.

Few people, even in DU, expressed any concern or outrage about those events.