Reuters: WH Version of Mid-Air Exchange Disputed (the story's cracking!)

[grasswire]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031201/us_nm/bush_iraq_pilot_dc&cid=1896&ncid=1480

White House Version of Mid-Air Exchange Disputed
56 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - British Airways said on Monday that none of its pilots made contact with President Bush (news - web sites)'s plane during its secret flight to Baghdad, contradicting White House reports of a mid-air exchange that nearly prompted Bush to call off his trip.

Honor Verrier, a spokeswoman for British Airways in North America, said two BA aircraft were in the area at the time and neither radioed the president's plane to ask if it was Air Force One.

"We have spoken to the British Airways captains who were in the area at the time and neither made comments to Air Force One nor did they hear any other aircraft make the statement over the radio," Verrier said in response to a question from Reuters.

The White House had no immediate comment on the discrepancy.

Bush aides recounted with excitement last week the moment during the flight to Baghdad when they said a BA pilot thought he spotted the president's blue and white Boeing 747 from his cockpit.

[grasswire]

1. see the thread....

...in GD for more probable lies about the whole flight.

Was Bush even on the 747? Reasonable people could conclude he was not.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=797586

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Which thread?

Thanks

[wryter2000]

2. I don't understand?

What benefit would he get from that story? It only made him look like a coward, saying he would have turned around if someone had spotted him. Can anyone make sense of this one?

:wtf:

[w13rd0]

5. They lie about stupid things...

...it minimizes the 'impact' when they lie about the big things...it's just more 'creative real-time revisionism' for an 'entertainment hungry' consumer public...

[54anickel]

6. It added to the excitement and element of "DANGER". Another

fairy tale embellishment for the emperor! I remember that first thread and someone at DU thought it strange that AF1 would even be on the same frequency as commercial liners. Sounded fishy then, now it seems it was just more make believe.

[Thor_MN]

41. Is that how the Crawford store had pins made before he got back?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/01/bush.pilot.reut/index.html

The mid-air encounter, which aides say nearly prompted the president to call off the trip, became an instant news sensation, memorialized by tourist pins which went on sale at a store in Crawford within hours of Bush's return to his Texas ranch.

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. I make buttons and pins

And I promise you that I can have a button made in less than thirty minutes from concept to final product.

LICK BUSH Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[neuvocat]

67. And that was going to make Bush turn around?

Assuming that were true, what a pussy!

[prolesunited]

8. In their mind

it would make him look like he was on a more dangerous mission and make it appear as if flying in and out quickly under super tight was an extremely dangerous task.

"Oh, what a self-sacrificing hero! Flying in to serve them Thanksgiving dinner." :swoon: <-- :eyes: :puke:

What a bunch of idiots, though, to lie about verifiable facts. Of course, it was Reuters and not our lapdog press who even bothered to question it.

[FredScuttle]

29. My take on this lie...

Rove and the WH wanted to get maximum political mileage out of this 2.5 hour "Thanksgiving" visit, but they didn't want to appear to be too craven. So, they took pains to leak that the President was adamant that there be no pre-event publicity (even though there were press personnel that accompanied him) and that if the secret was revealed, he would cancel. So, by lying to the press and (allegedly) inventing stories of near-discoveries of the "secret" trip, they get to make * look like the good guy, who just wanted to visit the troops and not call attention to himself.

Unlike the time he donned a flight suit and skulked like a monkey on the deck of the Abraham Lincoln, of course

[July]

53. And no pre-event publicity makes me wonder

if it's just possible that there also was no pre-event planning because it was a last-minute seat-of-the-pants endeavor to upstage Senator Clinton (even though the party line is that the turkey landing was planned in October). Hmmmm, what do you think?

[Richardo]

4. Over-reaching idiots. An already 'dramatic' story :eyes: is embellished

...for no reason and with a detail so easily disproved. :eyes:

Isn't one definition of 'pathological lying' when it's done for no reason?

[htuttle]

7. They can't help themselves

It's their nature.

And yes, this isn't the first time they've done this sort of thing (telling an easily disproveable lie), and it's not the first time they've been caught out about it.

[grasswire]

10. right

remember the bidness about AF1 being a target on 9-11.

But this BA thing may be related to the allegation that Bush flew into the airport in a Gulfstream and was not on the 747 that landed with the press and some staff.

[Paschall]

46. You don't even have to look that far

What about the stupid lies about the Clintons stealing the silverware and crystal off AF1? And all those busted W keys on White House keyboards? :eyes:

But every minute reporters spend on this kind of nonsense, and every column inch devoted to it in the media, mean that much less time and space devoted to things that really matter. From the stolen election to the present.

[glitch]

65. 'muddying the water'

with a bunch of useless and contradicting info is a disinfo technique. Reasonable people trying to reconcile the disinfo to reality eventually tune out - mission accomplished.

[benfranklin1776]

15. Yes evokes memories of the "Air Force One was a target" canard...

...that Rove and the boys parroted after 9/11 to explain Junior's circuitous flght route that day.
This adminstration's pathological nature about telling large public lies was evident from day one when they first took office and lied about the alleged mass vandalism of the Clinton Administration.

No truth in White House vandal scandal, GSA reports
By DAVID GOLDSTEIN - The Kansas City Star
Date: 05/17/01 22:15

WASHINGTON -- The General Services Administration has found that the White
House vandalism flap earlier this year was a flop.

The agency concluded that departing members of the Clinton administration
had not trashed the place during the presidential transition, as unidentified
aides to President Bush and other critics had insisted.

Responding to a request from Rep. Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican, who asked
for an investigation, the GSA found that nothing out of the ordinary had
occurred.

"The condition of the real property was consistent with what we would expect
to encounter when tenants vacate office space after an extended
occupancy," according to a GSA statement.

No wholesale slashing of cords to computers, copiers and telephones, no
evidence of lewd graffiti or pornographic images. GSA didn't bother to nail
down reports of pranks, which were more puckish than destructive.

Among those pranks was the apparent removal, by aides to former President
Bill Clinton, of the "w" key from some computer keyboards and the placing of
official-looking signs on doors, saying things like "Office of Strategery," after a
popular "Saturday Night Live" spoof on Bush.

[neuvocat]

68. Hey wait a minute!

You made me think of something: if the Bush adminisration had to fly in a secret route all over the U.S. to avoid terrorists, what the hell was the point of going someplace where the terrorists supposedly were all located? That would be more idiotic than running for cover.

[seekerofwisdom]

9. The whole then staged in the US?

Is it possible. I can't recall footage of Bush outside at all. Thus the entire thing could have been staged in a hanger in the US, complete with army personnel (read actors or secret service personnel).

The mind boggles!

[grasswire]

12. no, I don't think so

It appears reasonable to suspect that Bush flew in a separate, smaller plane. See that other thread for press notes.

A GI on the ground leaked the info in real time that Bush was at Baghdad airport, by posting to a message board on the internet. This GI says Bush landed in a Gulfstream.

[prolesunited]

16. Maybe they wanted the Freeper

to post that about his itinerary. Hmm...

What's up with that anyway? Has that gotten out anywhere? It really deserves some traction.

[Barrett808]

13. Speculation at MilitaryFamiliesSpeakOut is that it was faked

One mother said her son is stationed at BIA, and heard/saw nothing about the Bush visit.

If true, this should leak almost immediately, given the hostility of the intelligence services to Bush.

[salin]

21. I believe that a relative of a DUer

was there - in Iraq, so that part does not seem to be faked.

[Must_B_Free]

26. That could easily be a lie

I.e. someone working for the facists in Deep Cover mode, paid to drop propaganda.

Does anyone know the person?

[salin]

30. Long time DUer

not likely deepcover. Plus it would be too hard to keep that many mouths shut (in terms of all of the service folks having chow). I think it would be hard to fake being there. What makes the whole thing more interesting - is the lie seems to be about something really insignificant. Thus - behind it (the why) is the real story. Someone speculated about trying to brush off criticisms of how brief the whole trip was (as in a painless stunt, rather than an effort to really try give good spirits and to learn a little about how things are going first hand) - and that this story would show how 'chancy' and daring the whole thing was... give a little elan and danger to the story - while preemptively killing criticism. This also fits with the story that it was Andrew Card who came up with the idea, and that initially bush wasn't too keen on it.

[peekaloo]

51. it was wndycty's nephew

He had a thread about his mixed feelings regarding the trip.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

44. Was it a "Capricorn One" remake?

That was a movie where a Mars landing was staged to avoid embarassing the government.

[Cocoa]

19. and they called Gore the embellisher

Michael Moore had Bush right at the Oscars: the fictional president.

[xray s]

11. Story never made sense to me from the start

Wouldn't an aircraft have to be fairly close to AF1 to see the markings and be able to tell it wasn't just a commercial 747?

And doesn't AF1 have strict rules about distance between AF1 and other planes, making ID from the air impossible?

And doesn't military ATC overrule civilian ATC to maintain distance rules regarding AF1 flights, to insure security?

[Uroboros]

49. Exactly

What I don't get is this. For the BA pilot to question whether he's seen Airforce One; he had to have seen something that would lead him to the impression. Since I'm sure he knows planes and the kind of plane that is Air Force One; he saw a 747. And he KNEW it was such.

Then why the hell would the Air Force One pilot attempt such a stupid lie as claiming that they were really a Gulfstream 5. As if a pilot could ever confuse the two. That's almost like someone asking you if you TV is a Sony and answering that's it's toaster.

[Lisa]

61. and that would be pretty suspicious, wouldn't it!

I mean, if I saw a 747 claiming it were a much smaller private plane, I would wonder if there were some terrorists planning a little Thanksgiving surprise. Wouldn't any airline pilot worthy of the name raise the alarm about that kind of discrepancy?

[goforit]

14. Silly Dr. Seuss stories are running amok......(again).

I wonder what hollywood stunt they have for us tomorrow?

Go......Rove!!!

Nothing like a little entertainment from center stage!

[MaineDem]

17. How will Scott spin this tomorrow?

That WH press briefing might be interesting.

Or not.

[arcane1]

18. be sure to rate this a "5"

these people can't tell the truth about anything!!

[SpiralHawk]

20. At least the Bush White House is consistent.

They lie again.

[truthisfreedom]

24. it's not that they lied. it's that British Airways told the truth...which

means that they weren't cooperative. see, it's not lying. it's just the bush way to have reality differ from their description. it's all a matter of cooperation... if reality doesn't "cooperate" with the story, they just stick with the story anyway.

[salin]

22. Always trying to outdo Reagan

Reagan just embellished 'stories' and 'memories' (telling of his experiences... but they weren't really, they were experiences gained in roles in movies). These guys stage the 'memories' and try to make movies out of them.

What a stupid thing to fake. Completely unnecessary, and makes them look stupid. Just like the flap over who put up the Mission Accomplished sign.

[tom_paine]

23. Amazing that they just can't stop lying!

Pathological, isn't it?

[Fleshdancer]

25. With all the bailout money given to American Airlines

one would think that if the bush people were going to lie about this, they would have atleast used American Airlines instead of British Airways. I'm sure the cronies over at American wouldn't mind.

[phillybri]

27. Kick

:kick:

[peacetalksforall]

28. Rate the lies

Completed his National Guard committment.

We never thought they would fly the a/c into the towers, we only thought they would hijack the a/c.

Uranium manufacturing/stockpiling in Africa.

Arsenic is not present/A little arsenic is not bad.

There is no global warming.

There was nothing quirky about put options on AA, UA, and a few financial companies. We were able to close down investigations because there's nothing there.

The Iraqi people will embrace military bombardments, deaths, and dismemberments and will open their arms to our soldiers because we are freeing them and introducing democracy.

We are not taking away rights of citizens and residents when we put people in 'jails' without formal charges or when we deny them legal representation.

It was heroic of the President to land on a ship with only a flight jacket.

British Airways nearly discovered us, but we came up with a cute answer.

[salin]

31. wait... the other airplane story

that the reason he took so long to get back to DC.. was because AirForce One was one of the designated targets. Long since debunked.

[kskiska]

32. Then there was the one

about how the chimp had to fly a jet out to the aircraft carrier because it was too far out to take a helicopter. Turns out the San Diego coast was visible, so they turned the carrier around for the pictures.

[snippy]

33. There is nothing too somber, or serious, or shallow for Bush to lie about.

Bush had to lie about this because he had no plans on his desk to invade the aircraft carrier because it was too far offshore for the Navy to make a large enough banner to describe the WMD we have found that Saddam was going to give to Osama which is why Laura dropped the dog.

[July]

54. Excellent summary, snippy!

Mind if I quote you?

[terrisel]

34. Wasn't Bush at the airport. It was one of his Doubles.

He has several doubles. An idea he picked up from CIA reports on Saddam Hussein.

[peacetalksforall]

37. Why don't they just hire the Iraqi press guy

or is he writing a book and planning a TV show by now?

[leftchick]

47. They have one....Baghdad Bob Arnot...

on MSRNC.....

[ConcernedCanuk]

52. Doubles for GeeDubya ?? - hafta be an illiterate

. . so they could imitate his "misspeakes" and misprononunciations

Hitler and Saddam were both much smarter than Junior

Junior is just a product of American Thuggery

- not a whole lot of "substance" in Junior

GeeDubya is only there in the WH because of $$ , definitely not Merit.

Just a Canuk Opinion

[AP]

35. After presiding over death of travel industry, BA probably relishes chance

to hurt Bush.

[salin]

39. You think it is more likely that BA is lying

rather than the wh embellishing a story? Show me that the BA has a track record of doing this that is of a similar length of this WH, and I might consider that direction for a few minutes. Unfortunately this WH lies about even irrelevant stuff - it is more believable to me that they created this side "drama" to heighten the stories effect, than it is that BA would lie to "hurt" bush (could back fire big over exposing a really little - in terms of relevance - lie).

[AP]

42. No. What I'm saying is that BA has every reason to tell the truth.

But why'd Bush pick "BA"? I wonder.

[Paschall]

48. Off the cuff... one possibility

Maybe they expected BA--as a nationalized company--to obey orders from 10 Downing Street?

Dunno. But I'll take BA over BS any day. ;-)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

36. Reminds me of a drunk describing a bar fight...

"Yeah. Thirty of them with guns and knives. All I had was a longneck Bud." Took 'em all out in five minutes with my Kung Fu.

Unfortunately, no one saw it and everyone there is too scared of me to tell anyone what happened."

[pinto]

40. and tomorrow

no one will remember just what the hell went down or what the story line was, but hey, it happens. Next round...

[neuvocat]

69. And then they all changed their story

when they all met together later on to corroborate it. They're lying. All of them. They're out to get me, I tell ya.

[Oilwellian]

38. Mike Malloy just stated on his show...

While Bush was returning home from Iraq, he told the press that he wouldn't have made the trip if they couldn't accompany him. Whoot, there it is.

[radfringe]

45. reminds me of when he said

he saw the "first plane hit" the towers....

[Malva Zebrina]

50. Urban legends

it is the same mind frame that makes up stories of dead bird coming to life in a little boys hand , miracles etc. just for the fun of it. The halo behind George's head, the dramatic picture of him as he gives orders over the telephone on 9-11 while flying above it all in AF1, the mysticism behind him landing in a pilot costumes on an aircraft carrier, now the story of him flying pell mell over to Aganistan, supposedly secretely, to visit troops , blubber and sob making sure the camera sees the display and all of a lot of things he does. These are the makings of an urban legend(s) like the Christian tracts so often beleived in spite of their incredible inconsistencies, and I think, a trend present in fascism ie. mysticism

urban legend
n.
An apocryphal story involving incidents of the recent past, often including elements of humor and horror, that spreads quickly and is popularly believed to be true.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

[dean4america]

55. i don't wear a tinfoil hat...

but can they prove that Bush really DID go to Baghdad? I mean, really, could it be that hard to whip together a few hundred people in uniforms and stage the thing in a hangar? Could have flown AF2 into baghdad airport for effect, sealed off the hangar he was alleged to be in, etc.

granted, far effing fetched, but this IS rove we're dealing with.

[kskiska]

56. Just heard on CNN: The W.H. has a new story

The pilot of British Airways didn't actually speak to the pilot of Air Force One. The conversation was between British Airways and the control tower. Well. That clears it up. No word from the British Airways on that yet.

[54anickel]

58. Unfriggenbelievable!!! n/t

[peekaloo]

59. LOL.......pathetic!

:eyes:

[grasswire]

60. WHAT control tower?

I thought they were over the Atlantic. What control tower?

They're digging deeper.

[Cooley Hurd]

57. The WH is already changing its story...

...saying the exchange took place between the BA pilot and ATC, not between BA and AF1.

I'm a commercial pilot (no longer flying for a living, though) and I can honestly say I've never initiated contact with another aircraft while under IFR (nor has another aircraft radioed me) with pointless banter such as, "hey... aren't you so-and-so?" Professional pilots just don't do that...

[Frodo]

63. OK. But?

Have you ever been the pilot of AF1?

I can't imagine a commercial pilot calling another with "hey, that's a funny red color you've got on your tail feathers". But "did I just see AF1?" might happen.

I'd believe it if there was actually someother pilot who confirmed the story. Now that everyone knows he went to Baghdad I can't imagine the pilot not saying "you'll never believe what I saw yesterday" even if he had no idea there was a controversy.

[judgegina]

62. Sure....

the story is cracking now. But, it will be dead in a day or two.

When was the last time you heard any news about Valerie Plame, the CIA operative?

That's what you get when you have an American public with the attention span of a gnat.

[bvar22]

64. All IFR transoceanic traffic are required...

...to monitor the same frequency (Control). If the contact was between the BA jet and ANY type of IFR Control, this communication would have been TAPED, and overheard by ALL aircraft in the Control Area.

Additional communications channels are reserved for other types of communications, but none are secure and would have been overheard by other aircraft.

[VolcanoJen]

66. Kick... plus, see this other LBN thread for more discussion

This thread by shooga has since been locked as a duplicate of this thread, but there's some interesting discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=249744

:-)

[gardenista]

70. My question is, why the hell should a BA pilot CARE about AF1?

AF 1 is probably sighted more frequently than we could imagine. (Particularly when chimpy is trying to "escape terrists".

Why would a BA pilot even blink an eye. It's not like this supposed pilot was in on the pResident's schedule, and just wanted to check up on things.

Many pilots got their training in the military. They know how to raise an eyebrow, but keep their questions to themselves.

This is pure Rovian fabrication, and I'm Soooooo glad that BA isn't playing along.

Ok, so far that's BA & Jessica Lynch. How about, say, somebody in the media next? (Are you reading this Matthews? Who is the leaker?)