Coast Guard's plan for 'live-fire' on Great Lakes causes surprise & worry

[RamboLiberal]

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/08/coast_guards_pl.html

The U.S. Coast Guard wants to establish 34 "safety zones" on the five Great Lakes so its crews can practice firing "machine guns, rifles and small 9mm guns," our Gannett colleagues at the Detroit Free Press report today. The Guard says its crews need to train for combating terrorists and intercepting smugglers.

But the proposed zones have upset some ferry boat owners, fishing enthusiasts and environmentalists -- most of whom missed the Guard's Aug. 1 call for public comment, published in the Federal Register. The zones include areas near shore lines and where public ferries cross the waters, the Free Press writes.

Today is the last day for public comment on the plan, and because so many interested parties missed the Aug. 1 announcement, some are pushing the Guard to extend the deadline and hold public hearings on the proposal. Cmdr. Gustav Wulfkuhle of the Guard's 9th District told the Free Press there are no plans to do either.

The Guard promises that boaters and shipping companies will be warned away from the zones when live-fire exercises are being conducted, the newspaper reports.

[Redstone]

1. They going to fire some DU shells into the water? That'll be GREAT

for the cleanup efforts on the Great Lakes.

Even if they don't use DU shells, how much lead will they be dropping into the ecosystem?

Redstone

[wtmusic]

2. All those terraists in sailboats on Lake Michigan

could be a nuke in any one of those boats...I say let 'em have it :rofl:

[Monkeyman]

3. Hey I go fishing on the lake

Don't give Replugs ideas LOL

[wtmusic]

11. Coho salmon?

I used to do that years ago. How's the fishing these days?

[Jack_DeLeon]

17. Its more likely a terrorist would sneak into the US via Canada than Mexico

Why would terrorists deal with the hardships of crossing the Southern border and possibly have to deal with boarder patrol, minute men, drug smugglers and other border crossers, when they could just sail across the Canadian border into the US.

[Demeter]

4. The Coast Guard Has Taken Leave of Its Senses

Hope the Canadians call them on this, too!

[madville]

5. I was in the Coast Guard

I was in the Coast Guard years ago. It was common practice for us to go out into the Gulf of Mexico and fire thousands of .50, .223, and 9mm rounds out into the ocean in a days time. They make hunters use steel shot for duck hunting because lead is toxic, we are talking about large bodies of water here and not duck ponds, but I wonder how much is naturally present in these waters anyway ?

We are talking about a military service that primarily uses boats with guns mounted on them so there aren't very many other options for target practice in a realistic situation. A bullet's range is only a few miles at the most so safety isn't really an issue when the area is clear.

The lead issue doesn't seem like that big a deal to me when you are talking about trillions of gallons of water. Just wanted to add that the majority of .50 cal and .223 is armor peircing so that means it has a steel core, no lead is in the bullet. That is primarily what they use for shipboard firing practice. 9mm and now .40 cal is mostly used at the range. Iron ore is all over that area anyway so steel core bullets don't present any enviromental threat that I can think of.

[madville]

6. just wanted to add

Just wanted to add that the majority of .50 cal and .223 is armor peircing so that means it has a steel core, no lead is in the bullet. That is primarily what they use for shipboard firing practice. 9mm and now .40 cal is mostly used at the range. Iron ore is all over that area anyway so steel core bullets don't present any enviromental threat that I can think of.

[InkAddict]

7. I have some serious concerns on both sides of the fence, so

help me debunk them, DUers.

1. The Perry Nuclear Power Plant on Lake Erie's maritime defense? At one time, I was the proud displayer of a not so little green evacuation sign "We Have Been Notified," and an information booklet said to "Quickly leave one's pets" and "don't worry about your kids in school - we got it covered! (LOL) This packet of prevention was mandated to be turned over to any new owners/occupants. No extras would hence be issued.

2. What a great way for the "shadow government" to do a little side smuggling, i.e. DOD operation on the St. Lawrence to Coast Guard to say a secure facility under the NRC, to say a small local airport to anywhere, World. Not to mention the possible confusion, say, if a real event would go down at the same time "practice" was scheduled. Just imagine the chaos over juristictions, safety concerns for our Canadian friends during such a situation, and proper protocol in these respects. :tinfoilhat: Nah, couldn't happen! :sarcasm:

3. Lakes Erie and Ontario are very shallow and extremely unstable/labile during any of the seasons with often very high winds and shifting depths. Lake Superior - well, Remember the Edmund Fitzgerald that split in two. Lake Michigan's blue and yellow - who cares 'cause I got BUCKEYE FEVER!

4. Lake Erie has recently undergone great clean-up efforts that have somewhat restored fish families and eco-systems and I'd say that toxins would be an unwelcome addition to the lake beds.

On a lighter note: Step by step, inch by inch, closer and closer.....Ni-a-gra Falls!

[Lisa]

8. it's meant that they've had to re-interpret treaties with Canada

... regarding the militarization of the Great Lakes (made at the conclusion of the War of 1812).

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/15/coastguard-060315.html


I assume the International Joint Commission would have to be involved in issues regarding possible environmental and navigational issues?

[Porcupine]

9. Canada has LOTS of oil. Hot damn its "regime change" in Canada

Party ON!!

[pinniped]

10. Drain the damm lakes already. That way the scaaaaaaaaaary terra dudes....

can't engage in any illicit activities on high speed watercraft.

Do the terra dudes have hovercraft?:scared:

[reprobate]

12. Drain them! Think of all the republican condos they could build there.

[cmd]

19. Sell the water!

Halliburton would love to have that contract. Sell the water, drill for oil, build at turnpike across the dry lake bed. It's a republican dream.

[jayfish]

13. "The Guard promises that boaters and shipping companies will be warned...

away from the zones when live-fire exercises are being conducted". Just like we were so dutifully informed of the public comment period huh? What bullshit!

Jay

[yellowcanine]

14. Kind of weird they would call a live fire zone a "safety zone".......

Where I come from (Pennsylvania), safety zones were areas near buildings and highways where discharge of firearms was forbidden with a hefty fine for violators.

[damntexdem]

15. Hey, with the announcement of the 'tough' border security and ...

imposition of fees in violation of free-trade agreements with Canada, maybe the U.S. wants to establish a strong military presence on the Great Lakes. If Canada objects, maybe the Bushistas will want to invade. ;-)

Too idiotic, especially given that Canada has a conservative government? Come on, consider what U.S. administration we're talking about!

[Algorem]

16. more money for Bush war profiteers and scare everybody too.Perfect!

http://www.d9publicaffairs.com/go/site/443/


09-01-2006 USCG RE-OPENS COMMENT PERIOD FOR GREAT LAKE'S SAFETY ZONES
CGD 09-06-123 - Gunex Safety Zone NPRM -71 FR 43402.pdf
U.S. Coast Guard Illustrations of Proposed Great Lakes Water Training Areas Now Available
Lower Lake Michigan proposed safety zones
Upper Lake Michigan proposed safety zones
Lake Huron proposed safety zones
Lake Superior proposed safety zones
Lake Ontario proposed safety zones
Lake Erie proposed safety zones
FACT SHEET: THE COAST GUARD SINCE SEPT. 11, 2001
from: HQ News Site

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. Yeah, I read that this morning in the Tribune.

Pisses me off that they are going to abuse Lake Michigan like that. :mad:

[Judi Lynn]

20. U.S. Delays Plan for Machine-Gun Drills on Great Lakes

U.S. Delays Plan for Machine-Gun Drills on Great Lakes
By Michael Hawthorne, Chicago Tribune
September 3, 2006

CHICAGO — The Coast Guard has been quietly planning to conduct target practice on Lake Michigan with boat-mounted machine guns that would be fired a few miles from beaches along the North Shore.

But plans to establish a permanent "live-fire zone" in waters near Illinois' Highland Park, Lake Forest and Waukegan — and in 33 other spots around the Great Lakes — are on hold after boating groups and a congressman complained that the public wasn't informed about the training exercises.

The plans, which required changes to a nearly 200-year-old disarmament treaty with Canada, are raising concerns that recreational boaters might unwittingly cross into the training areas or get hit by stray bullets. Car ferries that operate during the summer between Wisconsin and Michigan also would pass through the live-fire zones.

And environmental groups are concerned that lead and other metals in the bullets could add more toxic pollution to the Great Lakes.

"This was a surprise to me and many others," said Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.), who serves on a congressional subcommittee that oversees the Coast Guard. "When we think about the Coast Guard on the Great Lakes, we think about search-and-rescue missions, not firing machine guns."
(snip/...)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-livefire3sep03,1,2378057.story?coll=la-headlines-nation